Studying a MA in Publishing with Ana Garcia

In this episode, Josephine speaks to Ana Garcia –– SYP Ireland's Student Outreach Officer –– about about her experience studying a masters in Publishing in NUIG University of Galway. Ana talks about the application process, the reasons why studying a Publishing MA appealed to her, her favourite modules, the skills she has gained as well as giving us some insight into her time spent working on ROPES, a literary journal produced annually by MA students at the University of Galway.

Ana Garcia

Twitter: @anagldec

Mentioned in this episode

NUIG University of Galway Publishing MA: https://www.universityofgalway.ie/courses/taught-postgraduate-courses/literature-publishing.html 

ROPES Literary Journal: https://www.ropesliteraryjournal.com/ 

Hosted and edited by Josephine Leahy (SYP Ireland Digital Content Officer

Twitter: @SYP_UK

Website: https://thesyp.org.uk 

If you have any questions about this episode or wish to partake in the show, drop us a line at podcast.syp@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Inside publishing the series where we interview industry experts on everything publishing.

Unknown: 0:17

Just been here Digital Content Officer for SAP Ireland. In today's episode of Inside publishing, I got a chance to speak to Anna Garcia, publishing master student who's currently serving in Nui at University of Galway. We discuss her career thus far. And she gives us an insight into her experience studying a master's in publishing, as well as some advice for anyone who is considering applying. Hi, Anna, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. How are you? Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm great. Thank you. I'm very excited to be talking to you. Great, I'm really excited for this conversation. I'm hoping this podcast episode, which is going to be all about your experience studying a publishing masters, that will be serve as a good resource for anyone who is thinking of applying for a masters, not sure if that's the route that they want to go down. So my first question is, have you always wanted to pursue a career in publishing? Was it something you've always wanted to do? Or is it something in the last few years that you decided you'd like to, to embark on? I guess it's something more along the lines of the last few years, really. I when I was 16, I got a scholarship to study creative writing in the US. And it was really fun. It was amazing. But you know, I was in there with the idea, like I'm gonna become next JK Rowling or something like that. And, I mean, I wrote a lot, of course, but we have one class with our director of the programme, who was absolutely wonderful. And she had the publishing module. And we ran the literary journal that was both print and online. And that's when I kind of started getting introduced to the idea of publishing and editing. And I didn't really know, like, at the time, how important it was like, it sounds stupid, but you're younger, you're like, oh, yeah, of course, writers are just brilliant. And the moment they finish writing, it just goes to printing. And then she told me like, no, there is so much work around that. It's amazing. It's fun. It's a lot of hard work. But I think that's when I first got my introduction to publishing. But then I went to study English lead, so of course, more reading more writing. And then during the pandemic, I think it was whenever all of us started questioning every choice we ever made in our lives. I was doing a course on translation. And the big part of it was editing and publishing. And also, well, this was in Mexico. And my professor was just going over everything, publishing, editing. And he said, like, well, you know, it's very exciting to be in Mexico doing this because there are more publishing houses coming out. But he's like, You have to look at what Ireland, for example, is doing with publishing, like, it's such a thriving community of publishers. And of course, you look at their literary works on the people and the writers. And it's just amazing. So I think it was kind of those the little hints of destiny in your way of saying, like, oh, maybe I should look into Ireland. And funnily enough, a friend of mine, who was studying with me at the time said, like, I don't know, I kind of want to do my masters in publishing. And she showed me anyway, gee, I had already seen the programme because it's the only programme in Europe. Yes, it is. Yeah. For the University of Galway. No, that's, that's the name. They just change it this year. But I was looking into it. And I just fell in love with the programme. And it just kind of clicked on me. Like, I love reading. I love writing. And it's such a interesting community of creativity, like a lot of talent is involved. And I just kind of realise, wow, this is something I really want to do. And I became very excited. And here I am. Oh, my goodness, what a what an interesting journey you had, if you're not that course in the US. And yeah, it really sounds like you are perfectly suited for a career in publishing. Thank you so much. So yeah, you were saying you're specifically drawn to an erg? Because of the thriving publishing community here. And obviously, there's a strong history of famous literary, literary community and famous writers. Was there anything in particular about the course itself that drew you to energy, anything that stood out to you? Any modules? Definitely. I mean, I started English lit again, translation, and I think English Lit. I love it too, because I went to a great school like my professors were absolutely brilliant, but I think it's a major that can be easily stranded in the theory part, like you just learn a lot. You write a lot, but maybe it does. have as many applications or practical sites that you would like. And when I started researching, publishing in general, like I also looked into Sterling, mean Scotland and stuff. I just really loved that. And UAG had such a practical approach to publishing, like, I was reading testimonies, and I knew a girl who came here and did her Master's a couple years ago. And she said, like, no, it's absolutely brilliant, you actually learn to do all these things you're like, involved in the Kirche, International Festival. And you know, you got to go to the publishing houses, talk to people, like it's a completely different approach to use, don't go to school, and learn in the classroom and go back, it's more like, Okay, now you have to do this, you have to do an actual literary journal. So you get hands on experience, looking into production and costing, marketing, stuff like that. And I think for the millennials, I was very, very excited about the idea of how many things it covered, because it was just fiction, but you also have book reviewing, and you also have theatre, you have academic publishing, for example. So it just seemed to me like it was a very great way to have a broad view of the publishing industry in general, because I think a lot of people tend to just think of publishing in terms of novels, for example, but you have educational publishing, and you have all these other kinds of texts and products going out there. And I think it was the first time that I saw something so complete, and I got so excited when I saw it, so I had to apply. That's so that's really interesting that you know, that a new idea, the masters that they offer has a lot of kind of interactive and practical aspects to it, because I suppose that would be one argument people might have against, you know, doing a master's, it's like, oh, it's better to go out into the workforce and kind of learn on the job. But from your experience, you get that kind of that bit of both, you get the theory, you have the academic side of it, but you also have the hands on like, this is what you're going to need, these are the skills you need to carry on in your career. That is super interesting. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the application process, because I know that the masters for publishing an annual IG is very competitive, I think, is it only 20 applicants they take on? Yes, yes. It's only 20 people, I know that it's kind of a first apply first serve like they once they have filled the 20. They close, I think it is currently closed. They're not taking on any more applicate applicants at the moment. So would you have any tips for anyone who is, you know, applying for their masters? Is there any experience that you had, that you felt made you stand out, anything that you would advise to anyone to kind of to get experience in before applying that you think would strengthen their application? Definitely, I think I think something I really appreciated when I came here is that we well, my group had very different backgrounds in different areas. So I think that's what made the whole experience so enriching. For example, when working in the ropes literary journal, like of course, we all love books, we all love stories, we all love poetry, like it's kind of a given if you want to come into publishing that you love all these great things. But then we have people who have done marketing before people who have done teaching before people who have done very different things around. So we were all kind of able to sit down in a circle, and just share those, like those insights that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. So I think if I had to give anybody advice on it is, of course you love reading, of course you love books, it's something you really have to emphasise in your application, of course, but also pay attention to what other things you've done. And it doesn't really matter if they are not related to publishing or literature specifically. But if you've been teaching, like I been working in marketing for most of my life, so those were also skills that I was like, I know how to make things sell, like I understand the need of selling books. At the end of the day, we all love just publishing but at the end, it's it's a business and we have to acknowledge that. So I kind of have that mindset when I do all my projects, like how is this gonna be marketed? How is this gonna be sold? And marketing doesn't really connect to publishing directly. But because I was able to kind of bring it into my application and say, This is something I would like to explore later on in life, the marketing of books, the marketing of like, book events and author signings, for example. I think that's what made them stand out because also our lecturers are very close to us. We get like a lot of one on one meetings and this is something our director brought up time and time again. It's just you need to get experience everywhere. And you need to be able to connect with people which is interesting because we are As literature students tend to be very introverted, I think we all like sitting in the library with our book and not be disturbed at all. And publishing is the opposite opposite, like, do you need to go out, talk to people just engage with the world, outside. So I think that's something you have to be willing to do. And just make that very clear upfront. It's, it's a whole world you have to be immersed in. But apart from that, I mean, it's fantastic masters, I would not miss the opportunity to just apply and go for it. It's really worth it. And was there was there an interview? Or did you? Was it just the kind of the application that you signed off? Or? No, do you just do your first application, and they asked you for an essay of sorts. And you just kind of explain your reasons why you want to go into it, you get also you get to send your CV as well. So they do have a broad idea of who you are. So I guess just polishing those writing skills. And make sure you present your best version on paper. But yeah, I think it was very straightforward. It didn't take me a long time to apply in terms of forums or waiting to hear back from people like they were very good at, okay, this is your application, and you send it in. And within a month, I had my acceptance letter. And also, the university offers scholarships with your application. So you don't actually have to do a lot of extra work, which is an international students, I really, really appreciate it. Incredible. And in terms of the kind of the course, outline the modules, so you had kind of core modules that you had to do. And then there was kind of ones that you could choose with, was there any module that you chose, or any module that you kind of thought, this is interesting, this is not what I necessarily would have thought would be included in this masters that actually ended up being really interesting or really helpful. That's, that's interesting. Well, one of my favourite modules that we have here was books journalism, okay. And our professor was here, we will just make us write all the reviews of like, available for one single book, it would be like write me five different reviews from this one very short book and like, talk to me about the production talk to me about the signed, writing, of course, the editing. And I think like, I came in here and said, like, Oh, I'm going to become an editor. Now, I think everybody's very into that. And he said, like, no, but like, actually think very deeply about books and think as a reviewer, or think of yourself as a writer, too. Like, you have to be able to formulate your own opinions. On other books, not only focus on the books you're interested in publishing. So I think it was, again, that mindset of broadening your horizons, some you I wrote a lot more than I expected. I was like, I studied English literature, I love writing. But I was like, wow, these people are really making me look very deeply into these details. And that was amazing. And, I mean, we have courses such as editing, copywriting, copywriting, copy, editing, sorry. And but then we also have marketing, for example. And this was not marketing of books, this was just like a general marketing class. But that also kind of helps us to step away from our comfort zone. And just think of marketing in a different context. And at the end, it just, it was easy to take those learnings and take them into publishing. But I think that flexibility of also kind of looking around what other people are doing, again, just like engaging with the outside world, there are also there was also the option of taking Introduction to Business, for example. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you know, if you wanted to open your a publishing company, your literary journal, that's exactly the kind of class that you would love to have. So I think that's a good, it's a good pool of choices. For publishers. It sounds like a really diverse mix of modules and kind of depending, as you said, depending what route you want to go down or how you kind of want to shape your career. It sounds like there really are kind of options for for all different avenues of of the industry, essentially. Was there any any skill thought you felt that you really were able to kind of develop and hone throughout the year throughout, like through the modules or just to the overall experience? I think just the ability to talk to people, it sounds very basic, but again, I am not generally a person who enjoys meeting new people like I love making friends, for example, but it takes a lot for me to actually go up and say like Oh, hello, my name is Anna, how you doing? Like, I just never never do that like, and our classes here we brought a lot of lectures and guest speakers from Tolka, for example, and from perch festival, Elaine Feeney the author was here. And it's very easy to just be a fly on the wall in class and just sit there. So can they information and leave. But I think this course kind of pushes you to go up to the people and say, Oh, hello, I really like when you said this, this is something I'm interested in, and just really getting to talk to people and connect with them. And when people say networking, it's always like this bad idea of like, Oh, I just want you for your connections, or your money or whatever. And it's really not it like, I think something very excited about publishing in Ireland is everybody gets along so well. And everybody is so generous with what they've learned and what they've done. And if you ask for any kind of advice, people are so welcoming, and so warm, and we'll sit down with you with a cup of coffee and say, of course ask away whether you want to know and I think that kind of helps you lose fear of just going into the industry or getting a job elsewhere. Like it just I think that was amazing. And just be able to connect with people who you admire so much was amazing. Yeah, I feel like, yeah, the word network is kind of a buzzword that is used a lot regarding the publishing industry. And kind of an advantage that a pro to doing a Masters is networking experiences, and being able to, I feel like advice that was given as if you were doing a masters and publishing as you said, don't be a fly on the wall, engage. Would you have any tips on you know, how to network? Or is it just as easy as you know, going up to someone and just having a genuine conversation? And then, you know, I think that's definitely the first step. Just kind of, and you don't have to say anything important that I feel like you overthink like, oh, maybe I have to say something super deep to this person I admire. It's really not. It's just say hello, I really liked when you said this, I'm super interested. Thank you so much. And people 80% of the time will be like, Oh my God, thank you so much. What did you think of this other thing like it's used, maybe have to stop seeing it as networking and using it as a conversation with somebody like a chance to talk to somebody you admire. But that being said, I do think a big part of what taught me how to network has been voluntary. So I volunteered for the Joplin Book Festival, for example. And I mean, like, you use the your job description, and you're like, Oh, I'm gonna set up chairs, at venues, and you're gonna think it's gonna be this super life changing experience or anything. But once you're in there, you get to realise like, there are so many people, again, involved in this events, you get a chance to hang out with amazing authors and amazing publishers and people who you won't expect, really, and you're just having a wonderful time. And you learn a lot well being in those events as well, which is also a great opportunity. But then, as every good Irish party, you finish it at the pub, so you just have the learning. You also have the fun, it's amazing. And for example, like it was a little less than a month ago, Kirche international Literature Festival was happening here. And I volunteered as well. And at the beginning, you're like, oh, I don't know how to talk to these people. But then she needed Gleason, the author came up to me and she's like, Oh, hello, sorry. Are you volunteering? Oh, that's right. And she just started that conversation. And she's the most lovely women in the planet. But I was just so starstruck, like Oh, my God, and they police and talking to me, like, I don't know what to do now. And she asked about the master whether we were doing and yeah, like, she was just amazing. And now we follow each other on Instagram. It's amazing, like, I just peeked in, right. So I think it's just kind of showing up to those kinds of events. Like even if you're maybe not volunteering, when you go to those. Make sure to talk to people because chances are, they're all as introverted as you are, but they're also very interested in what you're looking at. So you already have the topic of conversation right in front of you. So just go for it really. And, you know, Ireland is such a small place, and then the publishing industry within it is even smaller. So yeah, it's important to like make those connections because you never know when, you know, you might bump into someone again or could use someone you know, as a reference. And I'm not looking at networking as being so transactional and clinical as being having a conversation with someone and all your experiences sound like everyone is very much united by their love of literature and their love of books and their love of kind of the common goal of kind of You know, getting work published, getting stories out there, which is really lovely. It's very nice. It is, I think it's been like you expect people to be passionate about these things. But then you realise No, like, this is so personal to them. They're so invested. And they're generally so excited to see more people coming in the industry like, Oh, my God, like the families expanding or something. So yeah, like that's been such a great way to introduce to this publishing world with your thoughts only because it for such a small industry does not sound clicky at all, from what you've what you've described, it seems very like people are excited to see new people coming on the scene and, and meeting new people and see things expand. I wanted to ask you a little bit about ropes literary journal, because that is when you obviously, yeah, the publishing masters and on your IG is the only one in the country. And as you said, Europe, I know, there's a few in Scotland and England. But and a huge, really interesting feature is the ropes literary journal, I was wondering if you could kind of describe it to me. Tell me about your involvement in it. What is your experience working with fish, of course, well, so ropes literary journal is part of the course, of course, but it's not mandatory. So only if you want to be involved with it, you will sign up. But everybody ended up being involved with it this year, I think everybody was just excited about the idea. And we had the editor of ropes last year, coming to our first class last semester, and she told us about her process how, like the different decisions they made as a group, like if they were only going to publish Irish authors, or if they were gonna invite international authors. Like, she just kind of gave us her explanation and vision of things. And then we can have to decide from week two, who was going to be our editor or managing editor, assistant editor. And then we are divided into three teams, which is marketing, production, and editing. So you can sign up to all of them, you can just stay away from the whole thing. But I was, because I've really worked in marketing before. I said, like, I don't want to be involved with marketing, I already know enough. Like, I kind of want to get to learn more about production, which is something I've never really done before. So I signed up for that team. And it's interesting, because at the beginning, you can see everybody's very scared, like, we like we just kind of sat together and like, what do we do now? Like, do we just email people, like, invite them? Like, what happens? But I think because we were also like, we our group got along very, very well. And I think, particularly at the beginning of the year, everybody was so excited. So I think we hyped up each other very well. And we started well, the editing team started on the literary submissions, and depending on the work, we started receiving, we said like, Okay, now that we have a nice sample of the things people are submitting, let's decide, okay, we're accepting poetry fiction and creative nonfiction that said, we're not gonna publish Dramatic Writing, for example, let's just save that for another edition, maybe like, it's something we feel more comfortable with. And so it was a lot of communication between all teams, of course, and for example, the marketing team had the big, big mission of getting money for the journal just like to fund it. So of course, they were going and saying that we're like, Should we do a movie night and request money? Do we open a GoFundMe? Or should we do different events, we ended up having bingo on Halloween, we did an open mic. And people were absolutely fascinated with the open mic. We had a lot of readers that night. And it was also a really great way to start telling people about ropes and just getting people on board with it. I think that was an interesting aspect. Because you don't want to just throw the journal in May and be like, please buy it. Yes. It's interesting to see like, Oh, this is what we're doing that remember ropes is coming in May like it's, it takes a year really, to start engaging with people. And I think that's also something I didn't think of when I joined the ropes and they said like, that's so interesting, but Michaela, who was the marketing lead this year was absolutely brilliant with all of that. And then for some in production was hard to think of the new logo for ropes, what kind of paper we wanted, and what kind of fonts who was going to print a journal do we wanted French flaps or not such trivial decisions, but you would sit down and have The most intense conversation with people on whether French flaps were necessary or not. But it's fun. And you got to see the different kinds of paper, we also went to printing company in Dublin. So they showed us a few different papers. So it was interesting to see just like get to touch it and be like, Oh, this is the kind of paper that I like. We don't want it to be too white, because it's bad for the eyes, like stuff like that, that you start thinking about. But it's just so exciting to think of how it's going to look at the end. And I think the hardest part probably was to choose a cover for the production team, because we have amazing visual submissions, but you kind of have to make sure you get one that embraces the essence of ropes and what the literary pieces are going to be like, who represents us as a class and the colours, the fonts, everything, but I mean, we were so rushed. In these last three months, like you could just see the leader is going crazy. Like we need to decide the cover. Now we need to print it tomorrow. And we need to do this format. And it's when you realise how important it is to do this, practically. And not just in theory, because in theory, you say, Oh, you choose your literary pieces, and then you send them to print. And that's it. Once you're working on it, you realise you have to email authors back and forth asking for corrections if they're okay with things. For example, there were a lot of pieces written in Irish. And a bunch of us are international students. And we did not know Irish, so it was more of a vote of confidence on the Irish students, you understand what this person is saying? We, of course, value your opinion. If you say it's good to go, it's good to go. And the decision, are we going to add a translation or not. We didn't in the end, because it's not necessary. If you're in Ireland, and people speak Irish, you're gonna need a translation for this kind of things. And it was just kept those kinds of decisions that you cannot really foresee. Yeah. And then, of course, and in production, for example. You need a specific format to send your book to the printing press. You it's not just a PDF, which I think everybody knew about to me. I was like, What do you mean? Like, how are we going to fit everything in there. So that was also very, very interesting. And I think we all learned a lot, everybody was also retired by the end of it. But it was just a great project to see coming and ropes was released. In the encourage Festival. It's now on good rates, it's now available for purchase on the internet. And it's just amazing. Seeing it, it was like really seeing a baby, we were all so excited. We just carried it around everywhere showing all our professors like have you seen this? There? We're so proud of what we have created. Exactly. Yeah. So proud. Can I ask what the was there a general theme for this year's journal, in terms of submissions, with this cost having a team for a while, but then we kind of decided to let people just send whatever they wanted to give more creative freedom. This was the editor who kind of made that choice. And I think in the end, a lot of people were worried because I think having a theme really helps set the cover and like the tone of what you're looking for. But then she kind of explained her reasons. And the team generally agreed, like it's better just to see what people are coming up with. Like, it's also nice to realise what people are thinking off right now. Because if you impose a theme, you may just like limit that creativity flow for others. And I don't think at the end, we ended up having a theme or we know this a certain pattern, except people were looking for something very heartfelt, and truthful and authentic. And I thought that was also kind of a very interesting vibe to get from a literary journal. And I don't think we would have gotten that if we said the theme. Of course, that sounds really like very on stifling as you said, kind of allowing people to sort of just, I sometimes prompts can be great or theme can be great. But sometimes it can cause a bit of a block or kind of, you know, make it harder for kind of things to be authentic and to flow. That sounds amazing. I just wanted to ask as well in terms of your master, so it was separated into two semesters. Yes. And how was how were you assessed? Or how what what was? Did the assessment look like? Well, for every class, of course, it would depend for example, for marketing, we have to do a whole campaign for the specific product then for bookstore nobody suddenly was writing reviews. I think it's mostly essays, which happens all the time in English literature, like we went back right to that model. You're not we were not assessed for ropes, for example, since it was voluntary, but for our final portfolio, which is like instead of our dissertation, yes, you have the option have writing reviews or essays, whether they're academic or more critical or more creative, on a different have different books. And we can also write about our experience with ropes, for example. So I think it's an interesting way of saying like, Okay, you everything you've learned, put it into practice, but with this new books or whatever, and that final portfolio is going to be reviewed. And then it's just going to be a 3% of our grade of our final grade four semesters. And we have, we're working on it right now as we speak. Yeah, like, I just feel my books are staring at me from the bookshelf like, oh, yeah, you're working on it. All right. Yeah, that's pretty much how we're assess. So kind of Yeah, like the standard sort of, if you've if you've studied, done an undergrad in arts or in, as you said, English literature, it's, it's nothing particularly new, it's exactly essays. At the end, we always come back to or Times New Roman FA. And so overall, I just wanted to ask, so obviously, I feel like entering the publishing industry can seem quite daunting to kind of people on the outside, there are lots of different ways that you can enter the industry, whether it be internships, or, you know, kind of different mentorship, kind of programmes, and then obviously, a master's. Was there anything that? Was there any reason why you were specifically drawn to going down the Masters route? Was it? Did you kind of want to further your education? Did you like the idea of sort of the mix of the practical and the theory? What was what was kind of your, what was your, what attracted you to it? Well, for me, also, I mean, I come from Mexico. So to me just kind of coming to Ireland, like, I cannot just really say like, I'm gonna go work in Ireland. So you'll so to me, also, during the Masters was the most obvious choice in terms of visa permits, for example, but I also just really loved studying, like, I love taking a good class, meeting new people going to the library. The University of always campus is absolutely gorgeous. So I just saw that it was like, that's exactly what I want to do. And you're absolutely right, I think getting into the publishing industry can be daunting. And I know I'm not completely in yet. Like I've applied for a few internships, a few jobs, unfortunately, I've not been able to get them. But I'm really not discouraged. It's, we are told time and time, again, is just getting your foot through the door at first and just kind of even if it's not the role that you want the beginning because everybody's like, of course, I want to be the fiction editor of Sandycove, or whatever. And he's like, Well, the chances are, you're not going to get there just yet, like that. But there are many opportunities out there to collaborate with different publishing houses. So I mean, it is kind of a long process right now. I'm very thankful I finished my masters because I feel like I think I will tell him the skills and the confidence to not really get into this industry, of course, and I think if anybody from outside of Ireland is interested in working in publishing in Ireland, the Masters is by far the nicest route, like it's not necessarily easy, of course, because there's the tuition price. And you have, you do have to study for a year, but, but it's fun. I think it's also just a great way to get to know Ireland, as well, because you'll forget, it's like the Irish are so nice to international people like it. They're just nervous hospitality is real, but also just kind of get to know the country enjoy it. And then once you really see it, you're like, Okay, now I understand why the publishing industry is just amazing, like, people are so proud of the heritage of your country of your stories. So it's just like, also a great way to get to know that first. But yeah, I mean, they're like, right now everybody in my course is kind of panicking, like Oh, and that we have to find a job. So everybody's doing interviews, everybody's applying for things and I'm pretty confident we're gonna get there eventually like it's it's also a long shot went there are so many where there are so few of course, it does sound like you know, you and your, your classmates have really learned and developed like a whole wide range of like different skills not not even necessarily just specific to the publishing industry like marketing business, your experience with ropes, time manage means like working to a deadline working as a team like those are really things that you could really carry if someone decided, oh, not to go down the publishing industry route to go into something like copy editing for a company or it sounds really, really worthwhile. So I think just to just to wrap up, I think I'm just going to ask what, what are kind of like the top three things that you've learned from this experience for your your year and on your IG and things that will you'll carry with you throughout your career? Throughout your work, I'm sure will be a very successful career. Because thank you so much. I'll go doing my CV help me. Thanks. I have a future guys, please hire me? Well, I think the top three would be people are far more generous with their time and their knowledge than you would expect them to. And that's just an invitation for you to come up and just start really a conversation like don't really don't say that's network gauges. See, that's a cool opportunity to talk to some very cool people. And I think that makes you lose your fear a lot of just the industry in general. And you'll never know, I mean, you could very well be invited to a different event or to talk more to people, I think it's a great, it's a great starting point to just engage with others. The second one would be all experiences good experience. Like, I know, people who have done a lot of customer service, for example, I think, really underestimate how patient they are. And like the skills you get from working in areas such as that because all that experience when you're lazing with booksellers, and with authors and with other people in general, like publishing companies really appreciate that kind of skill, and just being good with people in general. And I think my last one would be, it is possible like it is, it looks very daunting, it looks very difficult. But you know, again, like, as an international student, my first language is not English, for example, I've not encountered a single person to tell me like, Oh, that's really going to play against you. Like, if anything is like, Oh, that's so cool. Like, because you might not be able to do a perfect revision of English, of an English text. But you can work in translation, you can do all these other things. I think there is a place for any kind of skill, any kind of background. And I think that's very, very exciting. It's really just jump in, go for it. I mean, I, I talk as if I am like a super great editor already, or something. But like, I feel like right now, even I'm not started yet. And I'm very excited. Like I'm very optimistic because I think that's the general attitude. Everybody has had towards me about this little career journey, so I'm not too worried about it. That's incredible. What a lovely, hopeful, passionate, inspiring note to finish on. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. And best of luck with the end of your Masters on your portfolio. And for the rest of your career. I really appreciated. Thank you so much. I had a lovely time talking to you. Good. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to inside publishing. I've been your host Josephine. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast. It really helps us reach more people. See you next time.