One Broken Mom

Why Women Don't Know Their Financial Worth with Dr. Brad Klontz

June 01, 2019 Amee Quiriconi Season 2 Episode 4
One Broken Mom
Why Women Don't Know Their Financial Worth with Dr. Brad Klontz
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One Broken Mom
Why Women Don't Know Their Financial Worth with Dr. Brad Klontz
Jun 01, 2019 Season 2 Episode 4
Amee Quiriconi

The statistics are grim and appalling - women are clearly disadvantaged when it comes to wealth and money. So, the current thinking is that if more women are taught "financial literacy", this can change it. However, the statistics include all women - high school educated to business owners and while some financial literacy is definitely valuable, the root causes of this disparity are not being truly addressed.

In this episode, Amee speaks again with one of the world's leading financial psychologists and the author of (5) books on the topic including “Mind over Money: Overcoming the Money Disorders that Threaten Our Financial Health” , Dr. Brad Klontz about women and why it really is that they have a hard time identifying that they/we are selling ourselves short when it comes to our value and financial worth. 

Ameé tackles this topic because she has seen it impacting women in two ways – one at a personal level and also, Ameé has seen money disorders affect women she coaches in business – in particular around the concept of “setting our value” that is what we should be charging for our products and services. 

When Ameé has coached women business owners, many times the conversation circles around the topic of valuation and she has coached women out of the “emotional” aspects of thinking they are worth something to showing them how to find “facts” – how to set pricing, how to find out what the market is paying for certain services, on and on – in a dispassionate way and use that as a way of breaking through their emotional barriers to see their own worth. 

But there is another phenomenon when it comes to women business owners & entrepreneurs and that is when the business bank account is the same as the household account – meaning that it’s all treated as personal income – the business can suffer greatly due to carrying whatever money disorders you have driving your thoughts and behaviors – you can’t really separate the two areas of your life from one another and you may be unable to achieve profitability – you may be “successful” in terms of sales and market penetration BUT at the end of the day, this business may not increase your wealth as much as you’d hoped because you are carrying around, as Brad likes to call it “unfinished business” in your life that needs to be understood and tackled.   

And finally, the research shows that women tend to leave the workforce to stay home as the caregiver, which interrupts their momentum in their careers – and that is driven sometimes, by the fact that since she’s already “earning” less, then it makes more financial sense for the husband (if that’s the case) to continue to work – so women can be trapped into a vicious cycle. So are women sacrificing their careers, again from the unfinished business and scripts they have been taught in their lives instead of doing it because they really want to?

In this episode, you'll hear:

  • What are some of the typical "unfinished business" scripts or messages women get in their lives that is different from what men are perhaps told or shown as it relates to money and value?
  • What common money disorders women have? 
  • How often is a money disorder directly related to money itself?
  • When we talk about the gender gap in salaries, how much do you think is a combination of what society teaches men about money/wealth & women and what women are led to believe in terms of letting other people tell them how much they are worth?
  • How do these messages women receive impact on couples and how their different viewpoints can cause relationship problems?
  • How much can financial literacy actually help a woman change her financial
Show Notes Transcript

The statistics are grim and appalling - women are clearly disadvantaged when it comes to wealth and money. So, the current thinking is that if more women are taught "financial literacy", this can change it. However, the statistics include all women - high school educated to business owners and while some financial literacy is definitely valuable, the root causes of this disparity are not being truly addressed.

In this episode, Amee speaks again with one of the world's leading financial psychologists and the author of (5) books on the topic including “Mind over Money: Overcoming the Money Disorders that Threaten Our Financial Health” , Dr. Brad Klontz about women and why it really is that they have a hard time identifying that they/we are selling ourselves short when it comes to our value and financial worth. 

Ameé tackles this topic because she has seen it impacting women in two ways – one at a personal level and also, Ameé has seen money disorders affect women she coaches in business – in particular around the concept of “setting our value” that is what we should be charging for our products and services. 

When Ameé has coached women business owners, many times the conversation circles around the topic of valuation and she has coached women out of the “emotional” aspects of thinking they are worth something to showing them how to find “facts” – how to set pricing, how to find out what the market is paying for certain services, on and on – in a dispassionate way and use that as a way of breaking through their emotional barriers to see their own worth. 

But there is another phenomenon when it comes to women business owners & entrepreneurs and that is when the business bank account is the same as the household account – meaning that it’s all treated as personal income – the business can suffer greatly due to carrying whatever money disorders you have driving your thoughts and behaviors – you can’t really separate the two areas of your life from one another and you may be unable to achieve profitability – you may be “successful” in terms of sales and market penetration BUT at the end of the day, this business may not increase your wealth as much as you’d hoped because you are carrying around, as Brad likes to call it “unfinished business” in your life that needs to be understood and tackled.   

And finally, the research shows that women tend to leave the workforce to stay home as the caregiver, which interrupts their momentum in their careers – and that is driven sometimes, by the fact that since she’s already “earning” less, then it makes more financial sense for the husband (if that’s the case) to continue to work – so women can be trapped into a vicious cycle. So are women sacrificing their careers, again from the unfinished business and scripts they have been taught in their lives instead of doing it because they really want to?

In this episode, you'll hear:

  • What are some of the typical "unfinished business" scripts or messages women get in their lives that is different from what men are perhaps told or shown as it relates to money and value?
  • What common money disorders women have? 
  • How often is a money disorder directly related to money itself?
  • When we talk about the gender gap in salaries, how much do you think is a combination of what society teaches men about money/wealth & women and what women are led to believe in terms of letting other people tell them how much they are worth?
  • How do these messages women receive impact on couples and how their different viewpoints can cause relationship problems?
  • How much can financial literacy actually help a woman change her financial

spk_1:   0:12
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spk_0:   0:43
place and welcome. All right, everyone, welcome back to one broken Mom. I'm gonna start off the episode today with a few grim statistics. One is women live longer. Women get college degrees more so than men and as a result, adopt an awful lot of debt. Women pay more in interest in debt for mortgages. Two credit cards to student loans. Women have more unpaid medical bills than men. Women have less savings for rainy days as well as retirement than men. Women are paid 20% less than men, and the equality and pay is not projected to be resolved for 43 years, which is like another two generations. Twice as many men passed financial literacy tests than women, and divorce threatens the financial stability of women. Far more than a dozen men one and five women fall into poverty because of divorce. Three out of four divorced mothers don't receive their full child support payments. About one out of every three women who own a home and have Children lose the home in the divorce. And about 1/3 of working women can't meet an unexpected $2000 expense within 30 days. Now the solution that I have seen out there and what most women receive is that we just need to simply teach women financial literacy. And then it's all good. But speaking as a woman who considers herself relatively financially literate as being a business owner and aware of my own money disorders, I think that that attitude falls way short in terms of really being able to help women understand why they are obviously at a financial disadvantage. So that's why I asked Brad Clontz to come back on the show today, and so Brad is a leading financial psychologist and the author of five books on the topic, including Mind over Money. Overcoming the Money Disorders That Threaten Our Financial Health. So welcome back, Brad.

spk_1:   2:28
Thanks so much for having me back Me happy to be here.

spk_0:   2:30
Awesome. So I guess I want to tackle the topic today because I see it impacting women really in two ways. One is at the personal level, and also I've seen money disorders affect women in business because I've been a business and marketing coach for many years and they struggle with setting their value, and that is what they should be charging for. Their service is in their products. And when I coached women business owners many times the conversation circles around the topic evaluation, and I've coached them out of the emotional realm of thinking of what they're worth and trying to give them a dispassionate way of calculating their value, presenting fax to them how to do market research, how to see what the market bears for pricing so that we don't have to worry about whatever emotional barriers that they have with price setting, and we can get down to what the numbers actually tell them what they should be doing. One of the other phenomena, though I've always noticed with women, business owners and top you know I'm actually guilty of this is that when the bank account for your small business is the same as your household account or you're like a freelancer consultant and you're not running an organization, it's easy to have your money disorders that affect you personally. Actually, impact your business is well. And so, while you may be successful with your business, the problem is is that you may not be getting enough wealth from your business because whatever affects your your spending or evaluation or any of those other elements actually ends up making your business not be what you'd hoped it could be. And I see that a lot of times with women and then and finally. One of the things that we know is that women actually leave the workforce to stay home as the caregiver, and that ends up interrupting a woman's mo mentum in their careers. And a lot of people think that that actually plays into why there is a salary gap in the genders because of the fact that women have these gaps in their work history and because that she's already probably earning less than the male counterpart in the household. If there is a male counterpart, it makes financial sense for her to take that time off to stay home, to care for ailing parents or to care for Children or anything like that. And so women end up kind of being trapped in this vicious cycle. And so I wonder, out, loud as a woman, are women actually sacrificing their careers again from what Brad calls unfinished business in his book and the scripts that we've been taught about, what our value is and how we approach and think about money. So I want to start this conversation off with you, Brad, and you're working research. What are some of the typical unfinished business stories that you've seen that win and get that's actually very different than the stories and scripts that men receive as they're growing up around money and value.

spk_1:   5:07
Yeah, so, um, really sort of painful list of facts there that I'm feeling, you know, for the women in my life, you know, as well as about the clients I work with. I mean, those statistics are very real, and they have a huge impact on the lives of women. And the fact is that we socialize little girls differently than we socialize. Little boys around money. Um, and this has been researched quite extensively, and unfortunately, it's still happening. But we are giving messages thio little girls that are very different than two little boys, including messages around. It's okay. To be financially dependent on a male like this is a message that is still getting passed down to girls full finances much earlier on and much more extensively. And then when they go off to college, there's a boys will go off to college with a much deeper sense that I have to make money on my own. I'm gonna be on my own. They actually get less financial support than their sister's D'oh. And I think when you add up an entire upbringing of being socialized very differently around money, I think that leads to a lifetime of unfinished business, and it leads to a lack of confidence. What's so interesting about confidence as a construct is that it really doesn't have much to do with financial literacy. It's it's actually separate um and you know, when you're when you're lacking confidence, you, of course, have lower self esteem in the area of money, which is actually gonna lead to you not being is empowered to ask for a raise, for example, or value on your work. Um, that's a concept, because a lack of confidence actually is what helps women be better actual investors than men because they are more willing to question themselves and, you know, think through decisions and being less cocky and overconfident. Frankly, studies have been done on that, too, but it also could be really it can hamper a woman's ability to advocate for herself in terms off. Like I said, negotiations around salary. Or, you know, just this. This this subjective mind set of upward mobility is available for me, and actually I deserve it. And what's so interesting about that subjective mind set? You know, we can talk a lot about culture and some of the very, very riel institutional barriers and sexism that is very riel thing that's happening on. And I talked to my clients about that, too. It's really important to understand that this is happening and it's not just you these things are actually happening. And it's a struggle on and you're gonna have to struggle through that. But of course. And you know this, too, in your own consulting. What? What I really want to do is to work with my clients around. Okay, So what parts of this can you control? What parts of this can you make? You know, improvements here and now in your life. And one of those is this subjective evaluation that we have ourselves in our own sense of worth. Because whether it's relationships or, you know, your job and salary relationship with money What? How you value yourself. The rest of the world was going to agree with you. Your boss is going to agree with you. If you if you put a very high price tag on your work and what you're producing, your boss is going to agree with you that it's worth a lot. Eventually, if you think really poorly of yourself, your boss is going to agree with you. So it's It's just such a powerful thing that it's not easy to research, but it's just totally pervasive around, um, that sense of who you believe you are and how you show up in the world with that belief, the rest of the world is gonna interact with you and basically agree with you.

spk_0:   8:36
It's kind of like setting the bar right and telling everybody what the standard, what your level is and everybody meets you at that level, whether it's higher or whether it's low. You know, one of the things that I would say that I never received personally the messages that I needed to rely on men for money or anything like that. In fact, I put myself through college. I applied for all my scholarships. I worked jobs, you know, endlessly. We talked about in the fur. You know, the other episode you and I did that workaholism is one of my money disorders like it's, you know, seven days a week all the time that I had to really going to get myself out of that. But I'll tell you, the strongest thing that I've always felt was growing up in a household where I did a lot of work for the family in particular, you know, care giving for my younger brothers and never being paid for it. And when asking for that being told, you know, you know, you don't get anything, you have to work and you're not worth anything. And I didn't go. I didn't see that as an impact on me as an adult until I realized here and in my thirties, I couldn't ask for raises. If anybody around me said, You know, no, you don't get more money or you don't get paid it all. I wholeheartedly agreed with it because there was this constant message in my head of that I was expected to work and provide service is and that someone had told me on a very regular basis that the service's weren't worth any worth money. They just, you know, you just needed to do it. And when somebody finally, like many years ago, had said, I mean, you should be making twice what you're making, doing what you're doing. Stop letting people do that. It was like, Okay, well, that's cool. But then getting to the place of being able to actually ask for it was, you know, a big stretch, you know, and I still today have a hard time. Even though I coach other businesses, it's easier to be again a dispassionate coach for somebody and then apply it to myself. And so I you know, I get the confidence piece, but it's still a tricky, tricky area. What kind of the money disorders and you talk about many disorders in your book? What are some of the money disorders then that you see as a result of this messaging that you know, little girls get and women get about their value in their worst and and who's who should be financially knowledgeable And who shouldn't that you see women expressing, Is there some several that seem more common than others?

spk_1:   10:47
Yeah, couple really do come to mind. And you you nailed one of them, which is under earning So So basically, you're, um, not valuing your work or you're allowing yourself to exist in a a group of people who continue to not value your work. Um, and and again, those things are very much into related on dso. Then you chronically under charge and probably overdeliver and again like whatever you put a price tag on, people will, um, agree with you. Eso under earning is a really powerful one that can be extremely devastating, and I would definitely put that in the category of a self destructive financial behavior. The other thing is that women have a tendency to be a pretty night a sp damn generalize. Yeah, but you know, there's there's a lot of research to support this deal. I mean, they're much more agreeable. They're much more focused on, you know, loving the people around them and being concerned about. But so women also I think, have a tendency to be vulnerable to financial enabling. Other, and the financial enabling is we call it financial help. That hurts because it's coming from a place that I want to help you. I care about you. You certainly have a need. I have some ability to help you with that. And so they can. I give you money now, Unfortunately, that gift of money is ost is off. So queer their you know, perhaps living out of integrity with their money or their misbehaving around money and you're supporting them. And sometimes that's done out of a sense of guilt, like I have more than you have and women who are especially vulnerable to this, or ones who are making more money than or have more money than their closest family and friends. That sense of guilt and that sense of disconnection from your family and friends can be a huge psychological trigger for you to give away your money. Yeah, so that that that happens.

spk_0:   12:43
It's interesting. And I've done both of those. Like I said, we talked about the undervaluing piece. Your common about nice is really kind of funny because I was thinking about today as I was getting, you know, getting excited about talking to you. And one of the questions or one of the thoughts that came into my head was You know, when I've gone in to ask for more money to, you know, either a raise or just say, Hey, we need to readjust salaries. And as a business owner, co owner with people, I've had to do this quite often where it's not like I've been an employee, really, as often as I've been a business owner with partners, and the story that I get most of the time is love to pay you more, but we just don't have the money for that. And I don't have any frame of reference because I've never negotiated as a man, and I'm just I was always curiously today. I was like, I wonder how often a guy has actually told that, Because again, my way, my realm is I've never had to negotiate with a woman. I've always been at the, uh, you know, I guess they control, you know, under the power of a man who has that type of an ability to assign value. And have you ever heard? Like when guys go in for raises? Like, what did they did they hear? Because, like I said, I'm told. Oh, I'd love to, but And you go Oh, yeah, you're right. Like I'm so nice. I don't want to hurt the company. I don't want to hurt. You know, words, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I've gotten screwed, you know?

spk_1:   14:00
Yeah. No, You know, you're so nice to me. So so here we are. We're going over a list of employees, you know, because we have to think about bonuses and raises. And so let's go through the list here. Okay? We've got about 10 of ah, she'll be fine with not getting a raise. 00 my goodness. He's gonna be really upset. It's gonna be a very uncomfortable conversation. He's not nearly as nice and agreeable. And when we can't really afford to that, actually, if I don't take care of them, they're gonna be really upset and probably leave me. But But, I mean, she's so nice she never get to go anywhere. I mean, she's a really nice person. She's dedicated the company she's so nice to talk with. It won't be a problem. I mean, she'll be upset for a little bit, but, you know, we'll just, you know, give her some flowers or something. It'll be fine on DSO. So that's what happened, sort of from the business for expect. Not that we are doing this so in it in a subversive way. But that's just how it plays out. Like if if you're if you're too agreeable, people are gonna walk all over you and not even nice people will do it. And so it really does pay to be less agreeable. By the way, tons of studies on this what I'm talking about. So and so in psychology, we would then work with assertiveness training. You know, you probably heard that that word and so and all of us anyone who's who's really high on that scale of agreeableness. And it's not just women men, too. But women have a tendency to be more agreeable, have to work on not being quite so nice, because in the business world, people will have a tendency to take advantage of that again. Not necessarily that they're setting out to take advantage of all the nice people. But that's just how it plays out when they're going over their list of employees and what they need to do next.

spk_0:   15:28
Yeah, that actually kind of spurs on a thought. This is one of the other phenomena that I've seen in working with women. You know, networking with women and stuff like that is that I have seen this really like, almost appalled towards a woman who suddenly decides that she needs to charge for something. She's doing a service, and I'll use an example of, you know, networking and saying, Hey, you know, I do a lot of networking. I have a big email list and I think that if you want me to promote your business, you should pay me for that because I've got these assets that I have generated and other women actually being super upset about that and almost insulted by the fact that this other woman is finally saying, Hey, I have value here. My value does enhance you in your business. But this this idea that we shouldn't be charging it all for it. We should all just be on this boat together, helping each other out and doing it all for free really does even set other women off against each other. You know, in that area, what do you think is a little what you would do things behind that piece of it? Because if I see some women, just go Golly, I can't even, like, charge 80 bucks to, you know, selling ad in my monthly newsletter. You know, without it being like this huge uproar and that you suddenly hate other women, you know?

spk_1:   16:40
Yeah. So I have a lot of thoughts on that, um, some of which might apply to share with share them. You know, it's this group of people that we sort of share similar beliefs around what's normal about what's right about you know how much money we're making that kind of thing. Um, and if you're If you're gonna try to rise above that or do something different, you're gonna get tons of blowback from everyone else around you. Meanwhile, there's a whole There's a whole nother socioeconomic heard over here where it's just a given. That, of course, we're gonna pay you for that asset. Are you mean what world you live in? Which I wouldn't pay you for that asset? That's a ridiculous idea. Of course I would. And so there's a whole reality where people are operating in that reality. And so those are the people you want to get to know you spend more time with. If you're wanting to join a group of people who actually get eight for their assets in their work, the people, that group of women, too, they do exist and they won't they won't find us that this is It's extremely difficult to rise above that by doing something new, because we have a tendency to get looked down upon by those people, like Who do you think you are like I mean, that's sort of the say. That's sort of what's happening and the message you're getting like me. Who do you think you are to charge for this, you know, And it's like, Well, I'm a business owner, you know? I mean, it's I'm trying to operate in a business that's profitable, like, I mean, how's that for an idea? That's pretty cool idea. And so I encourage people thio, you know, to break out of that is a very difficult psychological thing. And I just want to spend a minute talking about that. Like we are wired for survival, okay? And to survive for tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, you had to belong to your tribe because if you did not belong to your tribe, you would get kicked out and you would die and eaten by a predator or die of starvation. And not only that your Children would die, so it creates a tremendous amount of psychological discomfort. It actually hits the parts of our brain that that are based on survival, that tell you you're going to die if you charge for them to advertise on your email list. Now that's not the thought we have appear. But that's the emotional reaction we have, and it's intense and it's pervasive, and it will take over your entire life. And it's the reason why we see people do terrible things with money, win the lottery and blow. It all makes no sense. These are smart people who do this. So, you know, this is bacteria financial literacy, you know, question, you know, does that solve all the problems? And the answer is absolutely not, because we have We have this wiring in this emotional relationship with money and so much of it is related to the poor around. And so just understanding that if you want thio make significant gains in your financial life, there's there's gonna be an entire group of people that are gonna be aligned against you, is the further you under, You know who does she think she is no longer one of us. So it's a huge, powerful thing. And so it's It's especially for people who are very much connected to people, are around, relate in a relationship sense, so which can make it more challenging for women who tend to have deeper on DME or long lasting. And we're, you know, integrated relationships with people. It can feel like even a bigger existential threat versus like, I'll just find some new friends. You know, Um, but that's what I sort of jokingly say that people like, if you really wanna you know, let's say your lower middle class or whatever you want to become a millionaire. I tell people it's a It's a huge challenge because you're gonna get your money, your getting rid of all your friends. And you know, there are exceptions to that, like maybe you could keep a friend or two, but I doubt it. But maybe if you work really hard at it, the two of you d'oh! But I think it's just worthy. It's just so important to note that because, um, such a powerful emotional psychological trigger t getting above whatever's comfortable in your tribe. And so you're gonna get tons of negative energy coming towards you.

spk_0:   20:20
Yeah, and you're right, women. Because of their they tend to be much more emotionally connected with each other. It is harder and guilt, you know, like you touched on there that you can feel guilty and shameful for, you know, thinking that you're leaving people behind. Nobody wants to leave anybody behind, and it feels like sometimes in our sight, our society and our culture that women feel more strongly compelled to try to take care of everybody as much as they can. Um, I do, and I run into this, too. Is a business coach of when I'm working with a client and getting them to level up. They want a better Ah better, different type of a client for their source, you know, for whatever their product or service is. And it's like, Okay, we got to raise the price like you got to go up to, you know, the price level that attracts the type of, you know, demographic that you're looking for. And there's always that lag of, you know, losing the old clients and then having to pioneer and market to the new clients. It doesn't just turn around like overnight, like it takes time. So there's always this source that I'm like cheerleading them through that dead zone. You know where it's like maybe a couple of months of like the phone doesn't ring as much. And there are people coming and it's just like don't backslide, keep up there. It's like we have to just keep messaging and you'll get the people there and then finally, when they get the clients they start to build up there like, but they want to go back and they wanted cut their price back down. And and like I said, a lot of these times these are women business owners, you know, that feel like, Oh, my gosh, I'm trying to level up and I can't. It's scary. I'm gonna lose business. It's like you just gotta kind of like, breathe yourself through it and you'll you'll get there. Um, so, you know, one of the questions that I have is I feel like, you know, we talked about this, you know, a little bit on the other episode. Occasionally I got messages about money, but a lot of times I feel like that value piece of it. You know, the devaluing part of it wasn't because we really talked about money very often, But there were other, you know, subtle messages in the household and stuff like that, and some I'm wondering and want to see if you can answer for me is how often is a money disorder actually related to money itself? It isn't actually symptomatic of some other scripting or messaging that a woman may have received while she was growing up. That affects her ability to desire financial literacy or feel comfortable with Bill paying. Or again understands that she's worth something and that she needs to be confident and being able to let the world know what her value really is.

spk_1:   22:34
Yes, oh, you know, there's all There's a whole plethora of ways that we can miss. Behave around money. When I say misbehaving, I mean engage in self destructive or self limiting financial behaviors. In fact, it's quite ubiquitous, like the average American has a money disorder. When it comes to like how much money they're saving or not, you know they're overspending, and this is my This is sort of my criticism of the financial literacy, by the way. I love financial literacy.

spk_0:   23:01
It's great. It's important for,

spk_1:   23:02
you know, the better. Yeah, it is important, but it's not that important. Um, like, you know, the big problems we have is we spend too much and we don't save enough. Okay? Those are the two big problems now, Um, everybody I've met already knows better than that. Like, I've yet to mean something. Meet somebody who says Oh, you mean I'm not supposed to say, you know, money or I'm not supposed to spend more than my paycheck every month. Is that what you're telling pulling me? Wow, Thank you for educating me. Know, everybody already knows, and those are the two big problems. And so so these behaviors were engaging in can seem actually consume kind of crazy, like, you know, actually, some really crazy financial behaviors. I know you have to, but if you really get at the beliefs underneath it, it all makes total sense. Like the craziest, most self destructive behavior that we can feel really out of control around will make perfect sense to us if we destroy parents taught us and that unfinished business you're mentioning Did we experience some sort of traumatic event in our childhood related to money or not, that is gave given us this idea that there's no there's never gonna be enough. For example, like a scarcity mindset, there's never gonna be enough. Quite often, it comes from an absolute reality experience that you had as a child or that your grandparent's Ademir, sometimes your great grandparents, this stuff can get passed down through the generations in a very unconscious way. You just have this belief that there's never gonna be enough. And not only that. You have countless examples of where there's never been enough. And you have many of your friends who can verify for you that this is reality. And then when you meet someone like me who's coaching you and says, You got a raise, your rates and a month into it, you don't have any clients. You're like, Oh, my gosh, you revert right back to As you said, You know, you'll you'll quit. Quit along that path and then sabotage yourself, basically. And so I think that it's so important to think back, to start analyzing that behavior and look back to what is your unfinished business? Who taught you this? Where did you learn this? Because you learned it in it in an experience or an environment where that was the truth, like that was the actual experience and you had to cope with it. And the unfortunate thing about these beliefs is they're very unconscious. They sort of, you know, a sort of clank around in your subconscious mind, and they drive all of your financial behavior. So this belief that making no longer be relevant on point off that is irrelevant is you can be operating as if it's totally true right now, even though the world has changed and you're repeating patterns that sometimes have gone on for generations. And so being aware of that where it came from for me, it's because number one you're not gonna feel quite as ashamed because we feel incredible amounts of shame around. Our financial mishaps were embarrassed by it. Tons of shame around money, actually shame when you have too much money, too, by the way, so we have a lot of shame around money. And and so one of the one of the ways to push through that shame is to blame your parents, um, and to sort of put it into a historical context. So of course you have this problem. You came from that group of people and they were raised by this group of people, and, you know, for example, and they experienced the Great Depression, and we're living in abject poverty. So no wonder you're anxious about not having enough. Of course you are, and so that if you can really pin it back again, sometimes for generations, it'll make you feel better about Charles. Make total sense why you're doing what you're doing. And we can just at least get rid of that shame. Peace Young.

spk_0:   26:23
Yeah, Yeah, And that is You know, I I feel like even though I know I want to talk about this with you, and I know that part of what I do with my show is I'm transparent about my own, you know, hurdles. This is the one topic were on the most embarrassed to sit there and go. I've got credit card debt. I've got a car loan I've got. You know, I've got problems to me. I've got problems to deal with and admitting that it's like, you know, just sitting there, going you I feel like what you use feel can happen to you. Is that how can you be a business coach? How can you be a professional? You know that it cares about mental wellness and yet still have money. Problems like that must mean that you can't do both that you can't be a confident business person and still have issues, you know, with paying bills, you know, or for me, it is still and you know, been working on this for months, and it makes it hard to change your mind set about money. I have to tell you that working with mental health and with all the things that I've done in the last, like, you know, 15 16 17 months, the money piece of it is the hardest nut to crack. And I don't you know, why is that? You know, why is money and how we feel about it so hard to do, Given the fact that I feel like I've overcome a lot of other you know, hurdles and stuff and in terms of mental wellness and parenting.

spk_1:   27:36
Yeah. So fabulous question. And, um, it has been something that has been known for hundreds of years, actually, like how shameful this topic is, how embarrassing it is and how difficult it is. You know, the, um, field of psychology have done some studies on that day to have a conflicted relationship with money. Money is one of those things that impacts every area of our life. And it's what it's a shoot. There's a huge cultural taboo even talking about it. On dso we get constant messages like Oh, my gosh, you're not supposed to ask somebody how much they make. Oh my goodness. What? You can, of course, ask them what they dio, whether they're married, whether they have kids, all these other things that people worry about. But, oh, my goodness, never ask someone how much money they make. And so we're Why's that? Well, apparently, there's a lot came around it or risk and talking about it. We grow up seeing your parents fight about money. You know, that tells you it's a very dangerous topic. We can't talk about it, Um, and so I think that the level of taboo we have as a culture leads to The problem is it's a huge part of the problem. People in surveys are, you know, like like men would be much more willing to talk about their impotence and the fact that I'm medication for it, then their credit card debt. It's like what's that about, like, isn't that kind of shameful thing for a lot of people? But it's like we'd rather talk to our kids about the birds and bees than about money. It's such a huge, shameful topic, and it really shouldn't be. I mean, I don't think it needs to be. And it's one of the things I love about your podcast in your work. Is that transparency? And so I always like to talk about my financial problems, too, for the for the express purpose. To let people know that you're not alone like this is This is a struggle for most people. Like, for example, my wife's a psychologist. I'm a psychologist. I'm an expert in this area and you know what are what topic? Do we have the most struggle getting on the same page around Money? E. It's It's because because we're in a relationship and we come from different families who had different beliefs around money. We were raised differently. Even if you're in the same neighborhood, it's gonna be different. And so we have these unconscious beliefs that are very much tied to our emotions around. How we want to structure are approach in our relationship with money. So I think it's usually important for people to know you're not alone and that you probably have engaged in self destructive financial behaviors. You probably are right now, and it's okay. Welcome to the club and we can all get better together,

spk_0:   30:06
right? Hey, that's my tagline. So let me

spk_1:   30:12
just let me just pick on financial literacy a little bit more, too, because the problem I have a financial literacy as thes solution is it Sort of says that, Well, you're kind of an idiot, you know, like you just don't know And what, what? I It's just not true. And I'll give you an example. So we recently did a study on, and we ran it in five different states, and we tried to increase people's savings rates. And so we put half of the group in a financial literacy class where they were taught. You know how to save one of the various savings vehicles. This is a good percentage of money to save. So we did that financial literacy piece, and then the other group we had them. Instead of doing that, we had them visualize and get really excited about why they want a safe to begin with. What's in it for you like, Is it a vacation? Is it? I had them creating a vision board type thing, and then we tracked their savings rates. So that group I didn't give them an ounce of information around what they should be saving and the percentages and all that financial literacy stuff on. And then we track their savings rates. And that financial literacy group increased their savings rates by 22% which is outstanding. So let's say they were saving 10%. Now this saving 12%. That's fabulous at group where we got I'm really excited about why they're saving and they're related to their values, their core values, the people they love. Why would you do this? Why would you delay gratification right out for the future? That group increased their savings rates by over 70% from about 10% to 17% and it was clear about why you want to do this to begin with. And it was all related to their values and her family. Of course, it was related what mattered most but really spending the time to get a clear picture of what that ISS and visualize that and represent that. So just a little, you know, finance letter. She's great, but I don't think it's it's it's really the primary problem or the primary solution.

spk_0:   31:59
Yeah, and I and I would agree with that I mean, I said that at the beginning of it that I think that it's an easy It seems like it's an easy solution, but that also, you know, those statistics that I read off it the beginning of the of this interview. They don't break down the socioeconomic backgrounds of it. These are all women, women that go from, you know, high school educations to I've got a master's degree and guess what? I'm in this big depressing category, you know of being behind, you know, regardless of of you know that. And and like I said, I see it with business women owner. They have financial literacy enough to know, but it is kind of it. That's not really what it is. I will tell you that I like that study that you did there because for me personally, that has been shifting my focus from really trying Thio. Apply all these spreadsheets and tools and percentages and all that hasn't made as much of an impact on me in the last several years as what you said, which is putting a vision of myself five years into the future and knowing that I can't get there if I continue to do a, B, C, D and E and and and those things are what am I doing to take my own legs out from underneath me financially? Because if that's really the vision that I want for myself, the person that I am today, in the way that I address my life and the finances is not going to happen because that person out there five years doesn't have a bunch of credit card bills and doesn't have a bunch of car loans and student loans paid off. And there's nothing anchoring her to monthly payments everywhere. She's free and clear, and that has been, you know, for me psychologically is like okay, that helps me stay motivated to then on a day to day basis, overcome that, that scarcity anxiety of like, Here comes the bills. Oh, my God, do I have enough money and, you know, and sitting there thinking about my messaging to my kids, I don't want to tell them there's no money, there's no money cause I don't want them to take that message forward, you know, in life and and believe that there's never enough out there, Um and so I like that. You did that. I believe that 70% totally believe that. Totally believe that second shift, you know, a person's mind set regarding their savings. You know, I wanted to ask about the salary gap. You know that. We see it's 20% between, you know, men and women out there and knowing that men and women receive different messages about finances growing up, you know, I imagine that they also, you know, a boy is being taught a message about himself and money, and he's also probably getting the same message that the girl is getting that she should be in this role in position in life. And so, you know, I wonder if you have an opinion on this is like, how much do we think salary gaps actually end up coming down to this cultural differences between what money? You know what men think about money for themselves and for women and what women are carrying with themselves into the negotiation and the employment place that says I you know, I have these deep seated, you know, unconscious beliefs about myself in my own value, because I kind of look at it like we can't just, um, you know, change women. We also need to change the messages men receive about money. Am I right? Wrong.

spk_1:   34:56
Yeah. So that the whole topic of the gender wage gap, it's It's a multi factorial. So it's a huge issue that isn't easily identified. Like, what is the problem? Multiple problems. Multiple societal influences. It's absolutely true that as a culture, for example, we don't value childcare. Um, the way that we frankly should. And I have little Children, and I know that there is a There is a dollar amount to spending a lot of time with those kids. And it's not a relaxing experience. Let me just put it that way. It feels like work sometimes. Okay, you might love your work, but it's definitely work. Um, and so I think it's a culture for sure things like that, um, come into play and so, you know, time off the workforce, et cetera. But I also feel like, you know, obviously is a psychologist. I'm very much interested in. What can I do with this person in terms of increasing their particular pay? And I think I think understanding the socialization is critically important because then you have to combat it, you have to combat it within yourself. You have to advocate for yourself. You have to basically become less agreeable in terms of your approach to negotiate, and you have to ask for what you want. You you have to engage in all the negotiation strategies, and that's that is a good area of actual literacy. That I point. People, too, is read a couple books on how to negotiate that. The nice approach doesn't really work if you actually want to make more money in those types of situations. And so and also looking at some of that self talk around my own value, and why would that be okay? And what's interesting? I'll just, you know, a little bit of a side note here, but we're not socializing girls to be like, you know, go ahead and, you know, be financially dependent on a male. But what we are telling them is that it's okay if you are, and we're telling boys, absolutely, it's not okay. Not only that, I'm not even supporting you as much When you go off to college, you got to get your own job, so I mean, there's a sense of. There's a scarcity sense that we're giving voice to and something that's sort of the flip side of it. You know, it's like there's some more nurturing and financial support going on with our girls, which from the outside looks good, right? I mean, that's a nice thing to D'oh! We're being meaner to our boys and telling me they're going to do it all by themselves and which which does lead. You know, there's some positive outcomes to that because they're like, Oh, I guess I got to do this by myself. There's more incentive to do that because they have to.

spk_0:   37:21
Yeah, but I could also see the downside to that messaging, which is much more of an aggressiveness towards keeping your resource is and fighting rather than feeling comfortable with sharing your resource is and being okay with some dependence, that somebody is dependent on you. And that probably does lend itself into some of the fights that couples, you know, have I know I've seen Yeah, we've all seen this, that, you know, guys get really upset about women that just want them for their money. I mean, they're like protective of it. and women don't often complain about that. Like you said, one of their common disorder seems to be that they're willing to kind of give it away, You know, a lot more and stuff. So

spk_1:   37:59
it's such an important point you're making and how the genders look at quote. Household income is very different, and this has been studied and women have a tendency to look at. It is like the household incomes out for money, and when the males making a bigger chunk of it, he has a tendency to look at it. Well, that's actually my money, regardless of what this life, terrible things. For example, financial infidelity, which is where you're keeping secrets from your spouse around spending and that kind of thing. Both genders are guilty of it. Um, women have a tendency to spend things that they don't tell their male partners about having to do with, You know, thanks for the kids, Right? Males have a tendency to buy stuff for themselves and not tell their spouse on it had tends to be bigger ticket items. So this is another example of how that socialization plays out and and the downside to that sort of scarcity mindset that sometimes forgiven voice, which is like, you know, you're all on your own or nobody's here to help you. If you want to get it, you gotta get yourself.

spk_0:   38:57
Oh, I wasn't say I've had that experience myself and a marriage where it was. It was hard to buy something simple, like a new hair dryer without it coming with a high degree of scrutiny. And then and then me. Conversely, encouraging my partner. Hey, you got a bonus. Go spend it on something nice for yourself. Go treat yourself. You mean you're being rewarded for hard work and everything like that? And but there was this, like, very stingy, you know, doling out a small bits of it, which I guess, you know, as a woman who is dealing with evaluation, all that done did for me for many years was just reinforce. The fact that I was not is worth as much to the household and to life, because I I was letting somebody else essentially assigned that value for me or question when I decided to assert a little bit of that. And I can imagine that that at home then likely influences And when that woman myself he was a business owner in a business woman would go back out and engage with other men in the business world knowing that it even in my own home with a partner I chose, I'm still being told that I don't I don't deserve as much Or, you know, and I need to give up everything for everybody else that sound about right.

spk_1:   40:07
Yes, it does. And you know, one thought that came to mind earlier that I mentioned now is I think that it's super important to put a price tag on quote household related work because it actually does take time and resource is, and you gotta put a price tag on it. At least tow help value to help a couple of take an honest look at how they're using. The resource is you have to put a price tag on that because it's out sort, what would it cost? Outsource. And if you're deciding, make less money. So you're not outsourcing that work. Both sides of the couple really need to take that into consideration, because otherwise it leads to that devaluing and it doesn't need thio. You put a price tag on it, then you can have an honest negotiation to be like, Well, do you want to do that? And and my answer to my wife is like, Well, actually, no, I don't. So, uh, so, you know, So, like, how can we are we gonna insource satyr? We can outsource it. Um, and if so, if we're gonna outsource it, what is it cost? Because that that's the value that needs to get attached to that work because it's extremely valuable.

spk_0:   41:12
Um So there's a lot of because achieving wealth is an important thing for a lot of people. Like you said, money is our biggest problem that we have is a society and culture. Everybody wants more of it. There's never enough of it. And, you know, and even people that have money feel like there's probably, you know, not enough of it. And so there's a lot of programs out there that talk about adopting, like the wealthy mindset and just changing it. Do you think there's anything missing out there in some of these classes and courses that you can sign up on because I'll tell you what, like on social media, like there's a sponsored ad down my news feed like every other, you know, and I regard them with some skepticism, knowing a person like you and knowing that there's usually a little bit more behind the scenes. And as somebody that you know years ago thought, Well, I just meditate more and try to remove the barriers without even knowing where the walls and barriers were. What do you think is missing out there for somebody that's thinking that they need to improve themselves by jumping into one of these wealthy mindset classes?

spk_1:   42:09
So I I obviously think I'm this is not gonna come as a big surprise to you, but I honestly think that the majority of our struggles with money are psychological. Somebody's personal finance. First of all, you're gonna have a selector people want and improve. Their personal finance were in the course, which is great. So I have a feeling you're gonna do good right there. But if you don't really look at the psychological aspects, I feel like you're doing a disservice. Like I just share that study with you where you know the the information can help bump you up 20%. But if you really get psychologically wrapped around it. Seven and then the other the other. I don't want to say it's a criticism, but something that probably needs to get expanded is three notion of that positive mental attitude, which I think is incredibly important, like an attitude of abundance, visualizing abundance. You know, that kind of thing. Sort of the secret, If you remember that, that that sort of approach, I love the secret and that also has to be accompanied by actual strategic, business minded and actions that take place every single day. So, you know, having that really positive mental attitude is super important, but it's it's just totally not enough, you know, if you tried it like if you sit and imagine all the checks coming to your mailbox without an actual business model, there will be no checks coming to your mailbox

spk_0:   43:29
right through. I mean, it's a nice thought to, and I did you know, one point in time I taped up like a $2 million check on my merits. I thought that's just going to do it and you know what? It never showed up.

spk_1:   43:41
You know what you want, but it's actually it Zen important out of it's, It's actually an important element, like I love the idea of having that number that you want. I think it's hugely important, and I think it's incredibly powerful to visualize what it would be like to have that on what you would do with it and what that would be like and so very, very important in terms of motivation. And then you need to, you know, look, take your eyes off that and then actually put up newspaper and start outlining what you're gonna do today. What's your one month? You're, you know, three months, your three year plan. Who? The people who need to execute to get that $2 million?

spk_0:   44:18
Yeah, now. So I want to finish this up. Then again, you know, I I want women that are listening to the show to to know and understand, Like, what's their next step? What do what do you recommend for anybody that is sitting there going? Yeah, I totally sell myself short. Yes, I have a lot of difficulties with asserting myself, you know, in setting my value, I don't know why the voices were in my head. Or maybe they do know why those you know, those little voices and messages air in their head? Where does somebody go? You know, to get started on getting maybe a handle on the psychology of what's holding them back financially and asserting their value.

spk_1:   44:59
So, you know, I think that the most critical part is just sort of recognizing and owning and accepting that, Yes, your psychology is like a role. That's a huge fleet to May on. And if you can really make that leap, you're sort of leaving or something. Get reprogrammed, if you will. And so searching for that reproach, those reprogramming opportunities one that I would suggest people do like immediately is look around in your current network, Um, and look for somebody who's a step or two ahead of you, you know, along a path you want to go and then, you know, ask that person for some advice by them lunch. You know, people love to do this. By the way, can I take out to lunch? You just sort of pick your brain. Of course you can. I'd love to talk about myself, and so you'll find a lot of receptive people. Now if you go Thio, Tony Robbins and you say, Hey, let's have you know coffee. He's probably gonna say no if you ever got ahold of him because he's busy and you don't know him. But you can. You can definitely access that mentoring by looking a couple steps ahead of you. Like, for example, if you wanted to write a book, The last thing you should ever do is talk to somebody who's never written a book because they're gonna give you that. You know the 100 ways to not write a book. Where is if you go to somebody who actually written a book? They'll actually will tell you. Yeah, well, of course you can write a book. I mean, obviously, you know, you could do that. I mean, if I did it, you can do it. I mean, um, and so and then you'll be like, Oh, wow. So that's a mindset shift, isn't it? Like, you know, I could actually do this. Yeah, get around people who are actually doing it. And they're gonna tell you. Of course you can actually do it. So get finding those opportunities. Get in front of those people for my work. I'm trying to put as much of it as I can for free on YouTube. So I've got a YouTube channel doctor Brad, clients where I talk about financial psychology on Guy and I have some exercises in some of those videos and that kind of thing, Um, and, uh, looking for. And there are other people on YouTube who work on sort of shifting that mindset. Like Tony, I mention Tony Robbins. He's a big mindset shifter type person, so looking for those those opportunities to sort of pop yourself out of that What do you have? We all have a restricted view of reality, but just understanding. There are other ways to look at your life in situation and your other opportunities that are right in front of you right now. But you're just not seeing them because you're not being programmed to see them

spk_0:   47:08
cool. That's great. Well, Brad, I love talking to you so much. This was another amazing, amazing episode. You do some really great work on dhe, you know, honestly, I like calling a little bullshit on some of the financial literacy myself, because there's an awful lot of articles that teach you how to balance your checkbook and how many percentage is that you should be saving? But it's an astonishing thought to think that it's gonna take 43 years for a salary gap to get closed. And that's probably because of a lot of these other elements are just gonna take that you know, that much time to, like shift and so being able to have a conversation like this and knowing that women particularly are disadvantaged here and giving them some real insight into what that could be causing that I think is hugely valuable. And I appreciate your time. I value your time Dr Clones for coming on when broken mom with me.

spk_1:   47:55
Well, no charge for you, but I should think about why that is,

spk_0:   47:58
right? Yes, Ugo.

spk_1:   48:00
Oh, it's a pleasure. Me Absolutely. Thank you for listening to one broken mom. You confined podcast notes on my website and unequal cockney dot com, and they're all provide all links, all of the resources that we mentioned on the episode. Also, if you have any questions, comments for ideas for other episodes, feel free to send me an email, and if you're interested in sponsoring the show, I'd love to have you be a part of the team? Finally. If you like what you hear, please share the podcast and leave a review so that others could find it. We're all here to get better. Better? I am the host. Me, Marconi. And as always, I am super grateful to have you as a listener until next time. Have a great

spk_0:   48:39
day, huh?