In this episode of Planet A, Dan Jørgensen talks with Saber Hossain Chowdhury, Special Envoy for Environment and Climate Change to Honorable Prime Minister of Bangladesh and parliament member in Bangladesh, a country severely affected by global warming. Chowdhury sheds light on Bangladesh’s vulnerability, positioned between melting Himalayan glaciers and rising sea levels in the Bay of Bengal.
They discuss the stark reality that Bangladesh represents the “ground zero” of climate change. As a country already facing the impacts of global warming, Bangladesh's experience offers a glimpse into the challenges that the rest of the world will soon face.
Chowdhury underscores the urgency of global collaboration and solidarity in climate action, emphasizing that the lessons learned from Bangladesh's experience are invaluable for preparing other nations for similar challenges. He calls for fair climate finance, stressing the need for global action and adaptation strategies to address the escalating climate crisis.
In this episode of Planet A, Dan Jørgensen talks with Saber Hossain Chowdhury, Special Envoy for Environment and Climate Change to Honorable Prime Minister of Bangladesh and parliament member in Bangladesh, a country severely affected by global warming. Chowdhury sheds light on Bangladesh’s vulnerability, positioned between melting Himalayan glaciers and rising sea levels in the Bay of Bengal.
They discuss the stark reality that Bangladesh represents the “ground zero” of climate change. As a country already facing the impacts of global warming, Bangladesh's experience offers a glimpse into the challenges that the rest of the world will soon face.
Chowdhury underscores the urgency of global collaboration and solidarity in climate action, emphasizing that the lessons learned from Bangladesh's experience are invaluable for preparing other nations for similar challenges. He calls for fair climate finance, stressing the need for global action and adaptation strategies to address the escalating climate crisis.
Speaker A
[00:02 - 00:13] All of the symptoms or impacts of climate change are actually being experienced by Bangladesh. So we feel that the voice of Bangladesh is a voice for the present as well as for the future.
[00:14 - 00:19] Present in the context of Bangladesh and future in the context of the entire world.
Speaker B
[00:21 - 00:26] Bangladesh is one of the countries on the planet that is hit the hardest by climate change.
[00:26 - 00:38] Today I talk to Sabah Hussain Chaudhry who is special envoy for the Prime Minister of Bangladesh on climate change and also serves as member of parliament in Bangladesh.
[00:39 - 00:50] We discuss the efforts that Bangladesh is doing every day to adapt to and become more resilient towards climate change and what the world needs to do at the upcoming COP28.
[00:51 - 01:02] Welcome to Planet A, a podcast on climate change. My name is Dan Jørgensen. I'm Minister for Development Cooperation and Global Climate Policy in Denmark.
[01:02 - 01:11] In a series of conversations I ask some of the world's leading experts, policymakers, authors and activists how to stem climate change.
[01:40 - 01:52] Mr. Sabah Hussain Chaudhry is at the forefront of the negotiations on climate change.
[01:52 - 01:59] He represents Bangladesh where he serves both as member of the parliament and as the special envoy on climate change.
[01:59 - 02:09] Mr. Chaudhry is a strong voice in the international climate negotiations where he speaks not only on behalf of his own country
[02:09 - 02:18] but also as a representative of the countries in the world that are most vulnerable towards climate change. Hello my friend.
Speaker A
[02:18 - 02:20] How are you? How are you, Dan?
Speaker B
[02:21 - 02:32] Bangladesh is one of the countries on the planet who is most vulnerable to climate change and who has already hit the hardest by climate change.
[02:32 - 02:44] I visited you and your country some months back and saw it myself. But you have also obviously been a very strong voice in the international negotiations
[02:44 - 02:56] on the need for more efforts not only to mitigate climate change but also to adapt to climate change. And today we will talk also on what needs to happen at the upcoming COP. But before that,
[02:56 - 03:06] maybe you can, share with the listeners just how bad the situation is in Bangladesh and which challenges you face.
Speaker A
[03:06 - 03:16] Thank you, yes. And I think the first point that I would like to start off with is, you know, when we talk on behalf of Bangladesh or as a member of parliament for Bangladesh
[03:16 - 03:26] or as the special envoy to the honorable prime minister, I feel we are actually speaking for the world. Because what is happening in Bangladesh today
[03:26 - 03:35] will also be an unfortunate reality in countries all over the world. So whether it's Europe, you know, Scandinavian countries, Denmark, the USA.
[03:35 - 03:48] So we feel that the voice of Bangladesh is a voice for the present as well as for the future. Present in the context of Bangladesh and future in the context of the entire world.
[03:48 - 03:58] And if you can visualize a map of the subcontinent of India and the positioning of Bangladesh, you will be struck by two particular features.
[03:59 - 04:09] One is the fact that to the north of Bangladesh, we have the Himalayas, which I refer to as the water towers for South Asia.
[04:09 - 04:20] You know, they supply fresh water to about 700 million people. So the rate at which we are getting global melt or global melting of glaciers, this is very alarming.
[04:21 - 04:31] And, you know, the projections are that over the next 20 years or so, one third of the glaciers in the Himalayas will melt. So in the short term, that, of course, means flooding.
[04:32 - 04:44] But in the medium to long term, it means water stress or water insecurity. And, you know, there is no alternative to water. It is what sustains life.
[04:44 - 04:53] And you can imagine what sort of a challenge that will be. If you look at the south of Bangladesh, we have the Bay of Bengal, and we have rising sea levels.
[04:54 - 05:06] So Bangladesh is caught in between the melting of glaciers to the north and the rising sea levels in the south. And because of the low elevation of Bangladesh, you know, it's a delta, as you know,
[05:06 - 05:19] a one-meter rise in sea level will mean a displacement of 40 million people. Four-zero, 40 million. Of course, that's substantially more than the population of Denmark or many other countries.
[05:19 - 05:32] But just to put it in perspective, you know, if you look at the state of Iowa, in the U.S., that has a land area approximately the same as Bangladesh. And the population of Iowa is probably 3 million.
[05:32 - 05:41] And here we are at 180 million. So already one of the most densely populated in the countries being impacted by,
[05:41 - 05:48] you know, loss of land, by livelihoods, because food security is also now under threat. So we have water stress. We have food security.
[05:49 - 05:58] We have the intensity and frequency of major natural hazards. Which are hitting Bangladesh far more frequently and with greater intensity.
[05:59 - 06:06] We also, of course, have the issue of biodiversity loss. You know, that is also coming in. We have droughts.
[06:06 - 06:18] So all of the symptoms or impacts of climate change are actually being experienced by Bangladesh. So the progress that we have made, and it has been a remarkable progress.
[06:18 - 06:29] And if you look at Bangladesh over the last 50 years, and when you were here recently, you saw for yourself, the absolutely very, very impressive. You know, I'm a Bangladeshi, so I get carried away.
[06:29 - 06:42] But even by any global standards, you know, there's been incredible development, incredible growth. Now, all of those stand to be undermined. Because let's say even if the economy is growing at 8%,
[06:42 - 06:55] and the losses on account of climate change over the next 30, 40 years will be 9% of my GDP, then it is actually negative growth. So we have the economic hardship. We have the environmental challenges.
[06:56 - 07:08] We have the social challenges. In one word, sustainability, which is why we say it's an existential challenge. And I think any impact of climate change anywhere you see in the world,
[07:08 - 07:16] you will also see it in Bangladesh. Because this is what we refer to as being the ground zero for climate change. You know, this is where it is happening,
[07:16 - 07:28] which is why I feel that the experience of Bangladesh should also be shared by other countries. And as I've said, it's only a question of time. It's a question of when and not if.
[07:28 - 07:38] The same impacts would be felt by other countries, whether it is increasing heat, you know, whether it is flooding, as we see all over the world. I don't want to put it that way,
[07:38 - 07:48] but Bangladesh is really like the canary in the cage. And it's really going to tell you what the world will look like down the road. So this is an existential challenge.
[07:49 - 08:01] And we see it in that way. And that's why we think that we should all be on a war footing. You know, this is going to define our future. What sort of a Bangladesh we will have in the next 50 years.
[08:02 - 08:07] And in fact, what the world will look like in the next 50 years will depend on how we respond to this crisis.
Speaker B
[08:08 - 08:19] I do think it's useful to use the analogy with the canary in the mine. Maybe not all of our listeners knows it, but in the old days what happened was
[08:19 - 08:31] when people would be working in mines, they would be afraid of gas because the gas could kill the workers and sometimes they wouldn't know it before the gas was actually there.
[08:31 - 08:43] So they would bring a canary bird and then when the bird stopped singing or maybe even died, they knew, okay, it's time to get out. So in a sense, you can say that what's happening in Bangladesh is like that canary because some of the very negative effects
[08:43 - 08:54] that is hitting you right now will hit other countries also very soon. And I think also your point that the progress that's actually been made, which is astonishing,
[08:55 - 09:07] I mean, I can only congratulate Bangladesh on much of the progress that you've been able to actually make, it's in danger now of being undermined. And this also goes for many other developing countries
[09:07 - 09:19] that even areas that you wouldn't normally see as being connected to the climate, education, how things are going on the labor market, human rights,
[09:19 - 09:31] all of these questions I see in different countries. We're now moving backwards instead of moving forwards because climate change enhances the problems. It takes away focus from the problems
[09:31 - 09:42] because if your country is flooded, this is all you can deal with when it happens. It takes away resources from the problems. And that is a very important point.
[09:43 - 09:53] So maybe that could also then lead us to talk about our upcoming negotiations. You and I know each other very well because we've met at many negotiations. And in the COP process,
[09:53 - 10:04] and you are certainly always a very strong voice, not only on behalf of your own country, but also on behalf of other vulnerable countries and countries that has been on the front line.
[10:04 - 10:14] So I would be very interested to hear from you what you think are the most important topics on the agenda for the upcoming COP28.
Speaker A
[10:15 - 10:26] Thank you. Thank you, Dan. And first, let me say that we are encouraged by the very proactive, the presidency of the COP28. I think we were both in Abu Dhabi
[10:26 - 10:39] and there is a real engagement, there is a real drive, there is a real sincerity and passion. And I think the opportunity for us is really to take full advantage of that, is to leverage that.
[10:39 - 10:51] At the end of the day, it is the countries that have to come together. So I think in terms of priorities, and let me just back off a little and say how we see the issue of climate change. So we see mitigation.
[10:52 - 11:03] Adaptation and loss and damage as one continuum. And the reason I say that is, and we start with mitigation, which is why I use that word first. Because if we are not able to freeze
[11:03 - 11:16] temperature increase to 1.5, and even that is not a safe zone, by the way. You know, we see what is happening around the world at 1.1 or 1.2. So even one tenth of a degree makes a difference.
[11:16 - 11:19] So 1.5 certainly is no comfort zone.
Speaker B
[11:19 - 11:28] Plus also, by the way, if I can just inject that, it's also an average. So when we talk about 1.5, this means that some place in the world, it will be much higher.
Speaker A
[11:28 - 11:40] Sorry. Yeah, in Africa, if you're near the equator, you know, it's going to be 2 plus. And so I think the first task is to do everything possible to keep to 1.5.
[11:41 - 11:53] And it's not just keeping it alive. You know, keeping it alive means the ICU or the ventilator may fail at any time. So we have to be well aware within 1.5. And if possible, you know, Bangladesh may also suggest
[11:53 - 12:06] we have 1.5 in our cover decision because the Paris Agreement still talks about two or well below two. So I think that's the first thing. If we are able to do that to begin with,
[12:06 - 12:18] then what is going to happen is we have a very fixed goalpost to make our adaptation plans. You know, so Bangladesh has a very elaborate adaptation plan, the national adaptation plan.
[12:18 - 12:28] And we are talking about almost $230 billion between now and 2050. It's very well structured, thematic, the number of interventions specified.
[12:28 - 12:40] So that figure will jump from 230 to we don't know what if the temperature goes beyond 1.5. And we also feel that if there are adequate resources for adaptation
[12:40 - 12:51] and we are able to do adaptation properly, then the burden on loss and damage will be less. So if we ease up on mitigation, if we ease up on adaptation,
[12:52 - 13:03] if we do not fund adaptation, then at the end of the day, there's a real danger that everything will end up as loss and damage. So that's why I made the point, you know, that we see this as a continuum.
[13:04 - 13:14] So what I was saying is, you know, the point you made earlier about the development gains and the spectacular progress that Bangladesh has made. Because of this pressure of having to respond
[13:14 - 13:27] to the challenges of climate change, we are actually having to choose. Between poverty alleviation, you know, more equality, more infrastructure and responding to climate change.
[13:27 - 13:38] And it's becoming an either or. So other than the fact that we have contributed least to the problem and we are the most impacted, you know, this whole issue of justice also comes into play.
[13:38 - 13:50] And we feel that the only way to respond is to have a holistic approach. So mitigation, adaptation, you know, the funding has to be in place. The 100 billion, still hasn't been delivered.
[13:50 - 14:01] We hope there will be confirmation that it is going to be. The adaptation finance certainly has to be, you know, looked at anew. And we know that post 2025,
[14:01 - 14:13] we have the new collective pool that has to be really scaled up. So the 50-50 split, how we fund adaptation, not just the amount of funding, the quality of the funds.
[14:13 - 14:25] And I know that Denmark has pledged, you know, the vast majority of your funding to come to adaptation, which is something that we really appreciate. The loss and damage, we took a decision at Sharm El Sheikh,
[14:25 - 14:37] and now we have to deliver on the basis of that. So we want to see money in the table, not just in the table, but also start disbursing as soon as we can. And the other two important processes,
[14:37 - 14:50] of course, is the global stocktake and also the global goal on adaptation. So I think, you know, these five points are really going to be how we judge the success of COP28.
[14:50 - 15:00] And I would say that it's a litmus test for global solidarity. Climate change is a global problem. It requires a global fix.
[15:00 - 15:12] And for us to be able to come up with that fix, we must build trust. We must address the trust deficit and build global solidarity so that we can actually show
[15:12 - 15:20] that all the countries of the world can come together. And multilateralism is still relevant and it can deliver.
Speaker B
[15:21 - 15:29] Yes, well, thank you so much for that. I think that you are certainly hitting the head on the nail with regards to
[15:30 - 15:43] which are the areas where we need decisions to be made. Now, you mentioned the global stocktake. Maybe not all of our listeners know exactly what that is, but basically this is a part of the Paris Agreement
[15:43 - 15:55] that we need to take stock, of where we are now, meaning that there needs to be recognition of where are the gaps between actual action
[15:55 - 16:08] and what is needed to be done to stay below 1.5 degrees. That's one part of it. That's looking backward and stating where are we now. But there's also a forward-looking part
[16:08 - 16:18] which has to do with instigating the change that is needed. So where are we not yet delivering? And that will be exactly in the areas that you mentioned.
[16:18 - 16:30] So both mitigation, adaptation, loss and damage. Connected to all of these challenges are of course the question of financing. So the rich part of the world
[16:30 - 16:43] needs to provide more financing, both public means, but also generating private investments. And as you rightly mentioned, it's very important that we have a focus
[16:43 - 16:55] on financing for adaptation measures. For all the reasons that you've talked about in this podcast. And the problem unfortunately is that
[16:55 - 17:07] it's difficult enough to find investors and to find the funding necessary for mitigation efforts. For instance, building an offshore wind farm or making a solar project.
[17:07 - 17:19] That in itself is difficult. And that's even when there's money to be made. On adaptation, very often, unfortunately, there's not money to be made. It's simply efforts that you need to do to avoid a catastrophe and to help a country
[17:20 - 17:30] that are in big problems. So I like your point on the fact that we need to allocate more funding for adaptation.
[17:30 - 17:42] Do you feel optimistic with regards to that? My own country, we've decided to pledge 60% of our official development aid that's going to green purposes to adaptation.
[17:42 - 17:46] So we're trying to show the way. But how do you see it in general? Are you optimistic?
Speaker A
[17:47 - 17:58] I think a lot will depend on the political will. And this is, I think, very important. And you will also appreciate this. One of the challenges we have
[17:58 - 18:11] is that the challenges in front of us are over a longer timeline. So maybe over 15, 20 years. And we see that governments are elected for four or five years.
[18:11 - 18:24] And so, you know, this short-term perspective and trying to be doing things which will get me elected in the next term are sometimes more important than monies that I have to place or invest in the medium to long term.
[18:24 - 18:37] So that's where political leadership comes in. You know, we need leaders with vision. And we certainly are very enthused. And I often talk about if a country like Denmark can do it, why can't others follow suit?
[18:38 - 18:48] Similarly, when you talk about mitigation, you know, Bangladesh walked away from 10 coal-based power plants with a potential foreign investment of $12 billion.
[18:48 - 19:01] So if Bangladesh, which is contributing like even less than 0.5% of global emissions, if we can say bye-bye to fossil fuels and try and make the transition,
[19:01 - 19:13] why can't other countries also do the same? So I think it will all depend on how, you know, the individual countries take need. And then, of course, it's a question of global solidarity. I think if the political will is there,
[19:13 - 19:25] the funding can be mobilized. And we know. And, you know, I don't want to bring in the international politics, but we see other countries, you know, pledging billions, whether it is to fund conflicts
[19:25 - 19:36] or buy arms or, you know, provide other sort of support. But unfortunately, when it comes to climate and when it comes to adaptation, that solidarity is missing.
[19:36 - 19:48] I think we will make progress and an important barometer for that is if we can arrive at a practical and mutually agreed definition for climate finance.
[19:49 - 20:01] You know, at the moment, there is actually no definition. So if we are told that, you know, 83 billion has been given, then somebody will say, no, no, this is ODA, which has been repackaged as climate finance.
[20:02 - 20:13] So there are all of these. So I think to build trust and to get people aligned is what is actually climate finance? You know, what is climate finance? How much of it is public? How much of it is private?
[20:13 - 20:25] And you have talked about the challenges that we have in that because adaptation cannot be monetized. You know, there isn't a ROI for adaptation. There isn't a balance sheet for adaptation in financial terms.
[20:25 - 20:36] And also, I think, when I talk to our friends in Africa, the LDC countries, states, they're also very concerned about not increasing the debt burden, you know, potentially.
[20:36 - 20:47] So public funds are also important here. So you don't want to get into further indebtedness. I think it's a complex problem, but we have to realize
[20:47 - 21:00] that the disconnect we have between where science needs us to be and where politically we decide we will be, you know, unless we bridge that gap, and then countries like Denmark,
[21:00 - 21:11] you know, countries like Bangladesh and the Global South, although I'm not comfortable with using the term Global South and Global North, because I think climate change is something where we only talk about we and us,
[21:11 - 21:22] because there's no point in differentiating other than, of course, our responsibilities. But we have to act in complete solidarity. And I think if that political will is there, it is not impossible.
[21:22 - 21:34] You know, it is something that we can scale up to. So we are looking at scale, scaling up on ambition, scaling up on delivery, scaling up on how quickly we are able to access those facilities,
[21:34 - 21:43] because that access in itself is a huge challenge, as you know. So I think as long as we are sincere and hopefully, hopefully COP28
[21:43 - 21:56] will be the COP that hits the reset button and we can actually say, okay, we have agreed all on how we move forward and now it is the time to deliver. And it's the same with the global stock take.
[21:56 - 22:07] You know, as you have said, one part is a review, looking back, and the most important part is how do we move forward? What do we do with the stock take? How do we, you know, align our NDCs
[22:07 - 22:19] to what the stock take is taking, is telling us we should be doing? So these are all important processes. And I think it's absolutely important that we get it right. The other point perhaps, you know,
[22:19 - 22:32] some viewers may not be fully aware of what we mean by adaptation. You know, we use all of these languages. You are very right to define the global stock take. So adaptation for us is building resilience.
[22:32 - 22:45] And, you know, resilience in itself is a very dynamic term. Resilience isn't just about absorbing the impact of a particular shock. It is to come back and go to a higher level of resilience
[22:45 - 22:55] so we are able to negotiate and respond to the next shock which is going to be at a higher level. So, you know, it's a continuous process. And that's why the experience of Bangladesh
[22:55 - 23:07] in terms of locally-led adaptation, community-based adaptation, is so, so very important. I remember a slogan that we had in the Copenhagen Agreement
[23:07 - 23:20] or the Copenhagen COP where they talked about think globally and act locally. You know, so we will have to think globally in terms of agreements, but then we have to act locally in terms of implementing those.
Speaker B
[23:21 - 23:32] Yes, I agree 100%. We actually work with Bangladesh and also are able to help fund some of the projects with other international partners,
[23:32 - 23:44] that you've been successful in implementing, which is exactly taking the local commitment and the local ownership of the adaptation efforts seriously. I mean, if that is not done,
[23:44 - 23:55] then really we risk using, first of all, one-size-fits-all solutions that when you then implement them, of course, very often turn out not to work
[23:55 - 24:06] because one size very rarely fits all. So this is extremely important. And I think that it's important also that we bring these best practices and good examples
[24:07 - 24:19] to the negotiation tables in Dubai because we need to tell also the countries and parties that may not really be delivering as much as we would have hoped for with regards to adaptation finance,
[24:20 - 24:26] that there are actually very good examples of where those money can be very well spent.
Speaker A
[24:26 - 24:38] Absolutely. And I think what we are, you know, what we look at in Bangladesh, one is to mobilize the fund. And the other is to make sure that it reaches those that are most in need. You know, that is a fundamental principle.
[24:39 - 24:51] So whether we look at the SDGs in terms of not leaving anyone behind, I mean, we have to start, we have to target the most marginalized and the most vulnerable. That, I think, has to be a given.
[24:52 - 25:02] And the more we do that, you know, the more we can make a change at the ground level, at the grassroot level, the more resilient and the more sustainable our actions are going to be.
[25:02 - 25:14] So, yeah, we are fully aligned with you on that. And certainly during the COP in Dubai, we will be showcasing what we are doing and also how we actually use the resources
[25:14 - 25:27] that we get from development partners such as Denmark. I think it's very, very important to showcase. And I'm not saying that it'll be, you know, we don't want to be prescriptive in what we showcase, but these would be good examples.
[25:27 - 25:37] And once those examples are tailored to suit the local environment in wherever they are, it becomes a best practice from being a good practice that we are sharing.
Speaker B
[25:38 - 25:50] Yes. Maybe you can share with the listeners some of those concrete examples. I mean, what exactly does it then mean? How does these local communities
[25:50 - 25:55] then choose to use the funding? What is it that they do that make them more resilient?
Speaker A
[25:55 - 26:06] Okay, so I think the first thing is, you know, if you look at the, you know, the debt toll from a cyclone in the early 70s in Bangladesh, you know, of course, statistics were not very organized,
[26:06 - 26:17] but there are some that say that, you know, even a million people may have died. But let's say it's still a six-digit number. And you look at a cyclone that has hit Bangladesh over the last one or two years,
[26:18 - 26:29] and we are down to single digits. And the reason why we have been able to do that is because of early warning systems which are based on the community. So, you know, whether you raise a rate
[26:29 - 26:40] or a red flag in a fishing village, asking all the boats to come in or not take the boats out, whether you are using community radios or whether you are using, you know, text messages.
[26:40 - 26:52] So I think early warning is something that Bangladesh has been a real pioneer in. So the first thing is to save lives. You know, we also have a very extensive network of cyclone shelters all over Bangladesh.
[26:52 - 27:02] And when the early warning is combined with an area where people can go to along with their livestock and everything else, then it makes this much more effective.
[27:02 - 27:13] We are also trying to find convergence between reducing the risk of disasters and climate change adaptation. So I'll just give you one or two examples.
[27:13 - 27:24] I talked earlier on about the glacial melt in the Himalayas. So, you know, in the short term, there is, as I mentioned, there is flooding. So what we are doing is we are dredging the rivers
[27:25 - 27:34] so that the river can actually carry more water as it goes down to the Bay of Bengal through the delta. And then what we are doing is the dredge material
[27:34 - 27:47] we are using to build embankments on either side. And then we are planting trees on the embankment. So this is a convergence of climate change adaptation and disaster risk reduction.
[27:47 - 27:58] Because remember, salinity intrusion is also a major area of concern for us that undermines our food productivity and our food security. So how do you prevent this water
[27:58 - 28:09] from going into the fields in the surrounding areas? So, you know, these are just some examples where Bangladesh has done extremely well. And I think also the, you know,
[28:09 - 28:22] the coalition of civil society, the NGOs, the small communities coming together. So it really has been an all-of-society approach. You know, the government is there. We create the infrastructure.
[28:23 - 28:34] But if the awareness is not there amongst the population, our initiatives would not have the success that we have had. And our honorable prime minister, you know, she commissioned a study
[28:34 - 28:45] because we saw that in certain areas, women in particular were not moving to the cyclone shelters. So then we re-looked at the design of the cyclone shelters. You know, one is to have their,
[28:45 - 28:57] you know, the special needs for hygiene addressed in the cyclone shelters. Then we also realized that if the livestock cannot move with the people, then the people are not going to move. No matter how severe the warning is.
[28:57 - 29:08] So then we started designing the cyclone shelters in a way that the livestock can be accommodated on the lower level. And then we have two levels on top, one for male and the other for female.
[29:08 - 29:19] So I think it has been a very progressive approach that Bangladesh has taken. You know, we are trying to learn all of the time. We are trying to see how best we can use our resources,
[29:20 - 29:31] how we can reduce duplication, fragmentation, overlapping. As I've said, how we can bring the two areas together. And just going back to your earlier question on adaptation, you know,
[29:31 - 29:44] the impacts are now being felt also in health. So dengue fever is something that was only a seasonal issue, maybe three or four months in a year. And now because of temperature rise,
[29:44 - 29:55] the related issue of humidity and rainfall, now dengue is going to be around the year and not just in the capital cities, all over Bangladesh. So every time, we find that there is a new linkage
[29:55 - 30:07] between climate change and now, of course, it's health and public health. So unless we are really able to, you know, solve the problem faster than we are creating it, as I say,
[30:07 - 30:19] you know, you can't solve a problem by making the problem worse. As the Americans say, if you're in a hole, you have to stop digging. So here I think mitigation, because to me, mitigation in the medium to long term
[30:19 - 30:29] is the best form of adaptation. So whatever we do in the immediate future, in the long term, we also have the other issue of solving the problem faster than we are creating it.
Speaker B
[30:29 - 30:39] That is a very good point. Let's talk a little bit about mitigation. I think one important fact that's very often overlooked is that quite often mitigation efforts
[30:39 - 30:50] will also be both adaptation efforts and a part of a sustainable, also financially development strategy for a country
[30:50 - 31:00] because which country do not want a clean, safe, reliable supply of electricity for their citizens, for instance.
[31:00 - 31:11] So this is important to acknowledge. But apart from that also, I do think this is the time where we take some of the difficult discussions.
[31:11 - 31:23] I think if you ask a person on the street of a city in Bangladesh or similarly in Denmark, what would you think were the most important things that politicians and policymakers
[31:23 - 31:35] and negotiators are discussing when they meet up at a COP? I think they would probably answer intuitively, well, how to fight climate change and therefore, you know,
[31:35 - 31:47] taking actions towards the cause of climate change. So they would probably be surprised to know that right now in the Paris Agreement, it doesn't say that we need to phase out fossiles,
[31:47 - 31:59] which is astonishing, really, when you think about it. So this is also why that is hopefully a part of the negotiations in the upcoming COP. What is your opinion on those questions?
[31:59 - 32:08] Don't you also think that we need to have discussions on the actual source of the problem, which is primarily burning of fossil fuels?
Speaker A
[32:08 - 32:20] Absolutely. And, you know, if I may say it, put it this way, the challenge for us or the opportunity for us, depends on how you see it, is are we going to address the disease itself
[32:20 - 32:32] or are we going to address the symptoms of the disease? Because if you talk about the disease, then it is fossil fuel, it is carbon. So decarbonizing the economy is the only way forward.
[32:33 - 32:44] And we know fossil fuels, you know, so I shared with you about the 10 coal-based power plants with an investment tag of 12 billion. One of the reasons we did that, and this is very interesting,
[32:44 - 32:56] because you use the term safe, our honorable prime minister is also very cognizant of the impacts of fossil fuels on air pollution. So we are trying to move away from coal,
[32:56 - 33:06] not just to reduce our emissions, which are insignificant globally, but we want to show solidarity. But the other is the health co-benefits.
[33:07 - 33:18] You know, so this is something which is absolutely critical. So when I talk to our friends in Africa and other places, I said that, look, it's not just emissions, because the first thing they come back is, our emissions are so low.
[33:18 - 33:30] Why should we, you know, why should we not burn our fossil fuel? So, you know, so this is something I think that needs to be shared more. This is important. And of course, in Bangladesh, you know, we have this very,
[33:31 - 33:43] I would say a very bold, a very ambitious, a very aspirational Mujib Climate Prosperity Plan. Mangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman is the founding father of Bangladesh. So our honorable prime minister has named this
[33:43 - 33:53] as the Mujib Climate Prosperity Plan. And many people will probably be a little bit struck by the positioning of climate and prosperity together.
[33:54 - 34:05] You know, because climate is seen as a liability, as a debt, as a big burden, which of course it is. But our Bangladesh looks at it in terms of how can we move from vulnerability
[34:06 - 34:17] to sustainability and then on to prosperity. So this is almost an $80 billion investment plan where there are mitigation, where there are adaptation.
[34:18 - 34:29] And, you know, this is how we try to transition. Because through, let us say, the solar energy, it is not only clean, it is not only safe. We are also looking at creating employment opportunities.
[34:30 - 34:41] You know, there is an opportunity for us to be the recipient of the latest technology so that we can leapfrog in terms of what is best for us regarding solar.
[34:41 - 34:52] So, you know, these are all issues. And of course, the other big issue is it is also cheaper. You know, renewals are now getting cheaper than fossil fuel. So there is, you know, there is absolutely no reason.
[34:52 - 35:04] I mean, the investment case is so strong. The technology options are there. Finance is relatively easy, still a challenge, but relatively easy than funding adaptation.
[35:04 - 35:13] And the other thing that we have to bear in mind is if we are really serious about the 1.5 degree Celsius goal,
[35:13 - 35:25] then there cannot be any more new fossil-based power plants. I think the science is absolutely clear. It is categorical on that. And we have to be driven by science.
[35:25 - 35:37] You know, it is not a question of national positions or where we stand, because unless our actions are determined by science, it's whatever we do is going to be too little too late.
[35:37 - 35:50] And so thank you. Thank you, Dan, for this great opportunity. I do look forward to seeing you in Dubai. I think we'll all be there by the end of the month. And let us see if we can,
[35:50 - 36:00] through the Denmark-Bangladesh partnership and the very strong collaboration, bilateral relations that we have, let us see whether through our joint efforts
[36:00 - 36:08] we can push the world towards a new direction, a safer, a cleaner, a healthier and a sustainable world.