In this episode of Planet A, Dan Jørgensen and Denmark's Climate Ambassador, Tomas Anker Christensen, updates the listener about the ongoing negotiation at the UN Climate Conference COP28 unfolding in Dubai. Recorded in a quiet corner amid the bustling conference, they offer an insider's perspective on the negotiations and milestones achieved thus far.
The episode sheds light on important decisions, such as the establishment of the loss and damage fund, and the overall status on global climate action. Their dialogue takes the listener through the complexities of international climate diplomacy, emphasizing the urgency required at the negotiations to address global climate challenges.
In this episode of Planet A, Dan Jørgensen and Denmark's Climate Ambassador, Tomas Anker Christensen, updates the listener about the ongoing negotiation at the UN Climate Conference COP28 unfolding in Dubai. Recorded in a quiet corner amid the bustling conference, they offer an insider's perspective on the negotiations and milestones achieved thus far.
The episode sheds light on important decisions, such as the establishment of the loss and damage fund, and the overall status on global climate action. Their dialogue takes the listener through the complexities of international climate diplomacy, emphasizing the urgency required at the negotiations to address global climate challenges.
[00:00 - 00:11] Welcome to Planet A. Normally we tape these podcasts at my office in Copenhagen, but today we're sitting here, my climate ambassador, Thomas Anker-Krestelsen and I,
[00:11 - 00:23] in what looks like an abandoned warehouse. It's the only place we could find where there is some quiet, because we are at the COP in Dubai, and it is, well, I don't want to say a circus out there,
[00:23 - 00:34] because it gives the wrong connotations, but there is a lot of people and a lot of noise. We found this quiet place to tell you a little bit about the progress that's been made the first week of the COP,
[00:34 - 00:46] and of course where we are going from here. Thomas, you and I agree that this has been probably the best start of a COP in the 28 years that we've held COPs.
[00:46 - 00:58] Why is that? To begin with, we started the COP a week ago, seven days ago, without a fight on the agenda. And for the first time,
[00:58 - 01:10] for those listeners who don't know UN processes, before you can begin a meeting, you need to agree on what you're meeting on. Often, many countries have ideas about new items they want to discuss,
[01:11 - 01:20] new things that should be brought up. And this year, there were nine new things people wanted to talk about. And to begin with, the agenda is extremely complex and long,
[01:20 - 01:32] and it was not, people couldn't really wrap their head around how we should do nine additional points. So the president, the incoming presidency from the UAE spent a lot of time in quiet diplomacy,
[01:33 - 01:41] convincing everyone who wanted a new thing, whether it was on an agenda item on mountains or on financing or whatever,
[01:41 - 01:53] to convince them that we should talk about these things in existing agendas. And why is that important? Well, if you don't agree on this, you will actually end up spending the whole opening day and many more days
[01:54 - 02:04] discussing even the agenda. Last year, we only had nine days to discuss the agenda, and the president adopted the agenda on the second to last day. And it gave a very, very bad impression about the opening of the COP.
[02:04 - 02:16] But this year, the Emirates have decided we want a smooth opening, and they spent a lot of time, a lot of diplomatic muscle clearing that up. And why did they do this? Well, they didn't want a mess. They didn't want bad press.
[02:17 - 02:28] But also, that's the second thing to clear the way for the early, early, early adoption of the decision on the loss and damage fund, the major decision on the loss and damage fund.
[02:28 - 02:34] And the first day, and we have never started a COP with one of the biggest decisions and one of the biggest outcomes being on the first day.
[02:34 - 02:45] Usually we sit until three in the morning on the second night after two weeks of negotiations and big crisis. This didn't happen. So this, this, this is extraordinary.
[02:45 - 02:58] I mean, Denmark has been fighting very hard for a loss and damage fund, even even before it was on the agenda at the COP meetings. We've argued that it's necessary that the richer countries on this planet,
[02:58 - 03:09] help the countries that are hit the hardest by climate change. So, so therefore we need a loss and damage fund. And we were the first country to actually pledge real money for the fund before COP 27.
[03:09 - 03:20] Now at COP 27 in Egypt, it was decided that we would establish such a fund. And then since COP 27 until now, there's been negotiations on technical level.
[03:20 - 03:33] Denmark's been a part of the transition committee that's put forward recommendations for a decision. And as you, Thomas, I expected that to be. A very hard negotiation building on those recommendations, but actually the opposite happened.
[03:33 - 03:40] The recommendations were followed and we have a decision. Not only do we have a decision, we also have real money in the fund.
[03:40 - 03:51] So the UAE and Germany were the first countries to pledge 100 million US dollars each. Fantastic. And then afterwards, a lot of other countries followed.
[03:51 - 04:02] Our own country, Denmark, pledged 25 million dollars for the actual fund, plus 25 million dollars. So that's a lot of money for other funding arrangements dealing with loss and damage. So a very good start.
[04:02 - 04:17] Also, I would say a start that is good, not only because of the substance of the decision, which is, of course, fantastic, but also because it builds trust and it gives hope that we might be able to agree on the other issues to come.
[04:17 - 04:27] Now, Thomas, maybe you can just explain to the listeners what are then on the agenda, which negotiation tracks is it that we need to conclude on?
[04:27 - 04:38] And where we need compromises for us to to have a success here in Dubai? The main train, the main decision is about the global stock take.
[04:39 - 04:42] This is a this is a mechanism.
[04:42 - 04:57] This is in the Paris agreement, the way that we make sure that we are on track to deliver on the decisions in and the goals in the Paris agreement to stay at 1.5 degrees, to increase adaptation and resistance.
[04:57 - 05:06] And to and to finance both mitigation and and adaptation. And there has been a two year long process with a technical level.
[05:06 - 05:19] Many reports have been published on all the gaps, how we're not on track to lowering temperature increase, how we're not meeting our target on adaptation, building resilience and how we're not financing enough.
[05:20 - 05:26] And this global stock take will need to take all of this into account and then come up.
[05:26 - 05:39] With the guidelines, help countries and inform them when they do their next climate plans, their next NDCs, as they are called in climate language. And that's really the big decision.
[05:39 - 05:52] But under that, there is a separate negotiation on a global goal and adaptation. There's a separate negotiation on on a new climate finance goal, which we don't conclude this year.
[05:52 - 05:56] It has to be concluded next year. And and then there are many more other.
[05:56 - 06:12] Other technical tracks, but the global stock take and especially the mitigation part, how we reduce emissions and increase, increase other sources of of energy than than the fossils adaptation and then the financing of it are the main agenda items.
[06:13 - 06:26] Yes. And I've been asked together with my colleague from South Africa, Barbara Creasy, to facilitate the talks on the global stock check. And we've been doing this since July. And we've been reporting.
[06:26 - 06:39] We've been reporting back to parties and especially, of course, the presidency several times in the period of time. And now we are at the state where the technical negotiations on the global stock take.
[06:39 - 06:50] So that's that's the negotiations not being done by ministers like myself, but being done and carried out by negotiators, civil servants from the different parties, the different countries.
[06:50 - 06:59] They are almost ready to hand over their report when they do that. Trouble will be data today. I would expect we have a rest day tomorrow.
[06:59 - 07:11] Rest day is probably not a completely correct way of of describing the day because it's true there will be no official meetings. But that is the day where we then read and discuss the report.
[07:11 - 07:16] And that is then the basis for the further negotiations in the last week of the COP.
[07:16 - 07:24] Now, all of the things that you mentioned, Thomas, I think for for many listeners, it's probably a little bit difficult to.
[07:26 - 07:39] Understand the meaning of because what does then what what is that then concretely about? So if we are to translate it, I can give my shot at it and then you can you can add to that afterwards, Thomas.
[07:39 - 07:48] I think it's fair to say that one of the main topics, if not the main theme of the negotiations, the last week will be the question about fossil fuels.
[07:49 - 07:59] So in Glasgow, two years ago, we managed to have a decision on facing down coal. But coal is only part of. The problem, part of the course of climate change.
[07:59 - 08:10] Oil and gas are also necessary to get rid of if we are to stay below one point five degrees. Obviously not from one day to the next, but we need to start a phase out.
[08:10 - 08:16] And what that will look like, how ambitious the language in the decision will look like in the end is too early to say, of course.
[08:16 - 08:26] But my own country, Denmark, we've argued that we need to decide this year that there's no way around facing out oil and gas. The EU has also put forward pretty ambitious.
[08:26 - 08:37] Language on this, which means that the European Commission negotiating on behalf of the EU will will also be working to watch a face down of fossils.
[08:38 - 08:50] And it's also very clear that we do have countries and parties across the planet that are very skeptical towards this because they see this as hurting their own interests or hurting their ability to to develop.
[08:50 - 09:01] So we need to find compromises here. This is, of course, connected to the issues of financing. Of. Of adaptation of a possible goal for renewable energy.
[09:01 - 09:14] So it's been put forward as a proposal by Denmark and others that we need to reduce our emissions by substituting fossil energy, fossil based energy with renewable energy and energy efficiency measures.
[09:14 - 09:26] So back in March in Copenhagen at the Copenhagen Climate Ministerial, IRENA put forward some numbers that that we supported that are now on the table in the negotiations that we need to.
[09:26 - 09:36] So we need to triple our renewable energy before 2030 and double our efforts in energy efficiency. So all of these things need to, in the end, be a part of a big compromise.
[09:36 - 09:49] Now, that is both a challenge, but also an opportunity, a challenge, because very often in COPs, what happened is that one area hijacks, so to speak, the agenda from other areas. So that happened last year in Egypt.
[09:49 - 09:56] The loss and damage agenda. Very important one. We certainly fought for the end result. So I was very pleased.
[09:56 - 10:08] I was pleased with that, but I also have to admit that it meant that there wasn't given enough attention to the other issues that were important, for instance, mitigation. So can we exclude that that will happen again this year that one topic will hijack the agenda from others?
[10:08 - 10:09] Of course we can't.
[10:09 - 10:25] But I do actually honestly believe that we have a chance of of getting around that and then we do have a chance of having a negotiation where we take all of the important themes into consideration at the same time, because the global stock is actually the place where we can make these balances.
[10:25 - 10:37] Is that more important? More or less an accurate way of putting it, would you say it on this. I would say so Minister but maybe just to stress on the line to the listeners the importance of what you just said.
[10:38 - 10:54] We have we are now at the 28th cop with and having this yearly climate summit since 1995 since Angela Merkel was a young German minister of Environment and chair of the first cop that was held in Germany in 1995.
[10:54 - 11:07] And. And this is the first time that we have a text on the table that countries are willing to engage in and work on that has fossil phase-out in it. It is historic.
[11:08 - 11:15] I mean, in terms of humanity's dealing with fossil energy sources, it is a landslide.
[11:15 - 11:21] I have the feeling that all countries are actually engaging in that negotiation
[11:21 - 11:29] and that the main challenge at the end might be how we can make everybody feel comfortable that the financing of this will come,
[11:29 - 11:39] that if you are a developing country that needs support for tripling your renewable energy, that you will have access to the capital at a cost that is reasonable.
[11:39 - 11:52] But also, if you're a fossil fuel producer, that we will try to look at how to support the phasing out so that you don't risk breaking your economy. And that is easy. It's easier said than done.
[11:52 - 11:59] But I think, and you mentioned it, Minister, the trust that was built in the process of negotiating the loss and damage.
[11:59 - 12:11] We have now shown that it is possible to take a political decision, then engage experts in a fast working group over a year, and then come back and take new decisions on how to go forward.
[12:12 - 12:21] And I think if we can leave here in a week's time with the political decisions of the direction we need to travel on in terms of lowering emissions,
[12:21 - 12:30] and then we will, I'm sure, have to come back several times to look at the details of parts of that, then we have done a really great job.
[12:30 - 12:39] The biggest hurdle right now, as we sit here on day seven, is actually more the talks on adaptation, where there is the global goal on adaptation that we need to define.
[12:40 - 12:51] And those conversations are going really slow and are not moving anywhere. And we have heard many countries say to you and to Minister Creasy that, in the end,
[12:51 - 13:03] they would need to see an equal amount of detail of direction on both mitigation and adaptation to have a successful outcome. And I think that's maybe where we need to focus.
[13:03 - 13:14] And the question of adaptation has become such an important one and is so high on the agenda now, because it's so clear, unfortunately, that climate change is already hitting countries now.
[13:14 - 13:21] So a lot of developing countries feel that they need, and that it would all be possible,
[13:21 - 13:33] only be fair if they got more help to build resilience against droughts, against flooding, against hurricanes. We certainly support them in that. And pertaining to what you said on the negotiations,
[13:33 - 13:46] we need to be cognizant that for many countries, this is also a question about equity, about fairness. A concept that's used a lot here is the common but differentiated responsibility principle,
[13:46 - 13:54] which means that so we all have a common responsibility to fight climate change. But this responsibility is a differentiated one.
[13:54 - 14:06] And I do agree with this concept because I represent a country and come from a part of the planet where we've been burning fossils for more than 100 years. And basically, we are the ones causing this problem, historically speaking.
[14:06 - 14:13] So therefore, we should also be the ones carrying most of the burden in solving the problem.
[14:13 - 14:24] Having said that, there is no way around the fact that if we are to have a compromise, at the end of next week, we need to deliver on all parameters.
[14:25 - 14:36] Meaning that, yes, the rich countries on the planet need to deliver more on climate financing. It goes without saying. But all countries need to be a part of the solution.
[14:36 - 14:48] And many countries that you might still, formally speaking, look at as a developing country, are in the fortunate position that they're actually growing a lot financially. So they have a huge growth.
[14:48 - 15:01] They are pulling hundreds of millions of people out of poverty within decades. This means, of course, that the emissions will rise if we don't do something to make sure that they have a green transformation.
[15:02 - 15:12] It's up to the richer countries of the planet to finance and help finance that this happens. But it's also up to the countries themselves to take upon them the obligation to do more on mitigation.
[15:12 - 15:23] And then the finance and adaptation questions are complicated because, on one hand, the richer countries haven't, until now, delivered what has been promised in the past.
[15:24 - 15:36] This also leads to a lack of trust. So some listeners might have heard of the $100 billion question, which is referring to the fact that back in Copenhagen at COP15, it was decided that from 2020 to 2025,
[15:36 - 15:48] the rich countries should mobilize finance every year equal to $100 billion. This has not happened until now. But finally, it looks like we are going to have to do something.
[15:48 - 15:58] We are there with the newest numbers. And that might help build trust also. But Thomas, this is where we are now with the negotiations. We are here, of course, as a part of the negotiations.
[15:58 - 16:10] I serve on behalf of the presidency and the UNFCCC as a facilitator in the GST together with Barbara Creasy. But I'm also here as a Danish minister and you as a Danish ambassador,
[16:11 - 16:21] meaning that we also bilaterally and in different alliances try and push the negotiations in the direction of the GST. And that's the direction that we want. And yesterday was a big day for us.
[16:21 - 16:34] Two of our alliances that's led by us in Denmark were able to present new members. So BOGA, Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance, and GOVA, Global Offshore Wind Alliance,
[16:34 - 16:46] dealing with both the supply side and the demand side, you could say. So BOGA aims to phase out oil and gas. Denmark has decided that we want to put an end date and have put an end date
[16:46 - 16:58] on oil and gas production in Denmark. And in 2050, we want other countries to follow. And that is fortunately happening. GOVA, we were the first country in the world to have an offshore wind farm established in 1991,
[16:59 - 17:08] has been leader since. Fortunately now, a lot of countries are competing for this title. This is great news. But we need even more on board.
[17:08 - 17:21] So which countries were it that we were able to present yesterday, Thomas? The Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance had three new members announced yesterday. Spain, Samoa, and Kenya.
[17:21 - 17:32] And these three members are very important because Spain is currently the EU presidency. Samoa chairs the small island states in the negotiations.
[17:33 - 17:45] And Kenya is the leading voice on the green transition in Africa. And has oil and gas reserves that they are getting support from BOGA to study how to not extract,
[17:45 - 17:55] how to leave in the ground, and how to change their economy so that they won't have to extract them to grow their country and their economy.
[17:55 - 18:07] And these three join a few other newcomers because we recently, in September, welcomed the Marshall Islands at a meeting in New York.
[18:07 - 18:20] And we welcomed Colombia when you were in Colombia on a visit in August. So we actually have five new members. And Colombia is a huge producer of fossiles. And the Colombian minister joined you on the stage at the press conference yesterday.
[18:20 - 18:31] We also announced at that press conference that the new BOGA fund gives its first grants to Colombia and Kenya to support them with technical analysis on how to make the transition happen.
[18:32 - 18:44] And that's work that we will start on straight away. The ministers also at the press conference all joined hands on stage and spoke about fossil phase-out
[18:44 - 18:50] and how we as a coalition will, in the negotiations, also join hands to push together.
[18:51 - 18:57] And that's a really, really powerful statement because, again, it shows that it's not a specifically European endeavor,
[18:57 - 19:04] but it's one that brings together countries from every region on the planet and from the most developed economies,
[19:05 - 19:16] like we have a G7 member, France, to the smallest island of Tuvalu that fears for their existence and based on a coral reef will disappear. And when the water is rising.
[19:16 - 19:28] That was a very, very good press conference. We also had a ministerial of the alliance with Al Gore, where Al gave a 20-minute long speech.
[19:29 - 19:41] And an incredible, incredible performance from him. And then the Global Offshore Wind Alliance. We had a hacked room in the pavilion of the International Renewable Energy Agency
[19:41 - 19:53] where we welcomed the European Commission, Brazil, Panama, and the state of California. And the state of California, of course, if it was an independent economy, would be the fifth largest economy in the world.
[19:53 - 20:04] So it's not a small deal. The Offshore Wind Alliance is the coalition that pushes for the highest ambition on offshore wind.
[20:04 - 20:15] We have as a collective ambition to reach 380 gigawatts of installed capacity. In 2030, to the listeners, that might not mean a lot,
[20:15 - 20:27] but one gigawatt is around energy for one million households in Denmark. So that is 380 million households that could be supplied by offshore wind by 2030.
[20:27 - 20:38] And the collective target is 2,000 gigawatts by 2050. In view of the new target of tripling renewable energy, we might have to review it and we might have to come up with higher targets.
[20:39 - 20:47] But that's not a problem for us, because the members of the coalition, if you put together the total ambition, we think we are already at about 450.
[20:48 - 21:00] So the ambition, the willingness to install offshore wind is growing rapidly. Yes, I think if we look at the targets that are being negotiated right now here in Dubai,
[21:01 - 21:09] we hope that we will end up with a decision to triple the renewable energy in the world. What does that mean? Well, according to ARENA,
[21:09 - 21:19] it means that we need to at least double what countries have planned to do now and triple the speed of implementation and investments.
[21:19 - 21:30] So really, it's a huge task that lays in front of us. Now, before we finish, Thomas, I want to just say a few words about how we approach it as a small country here in Dubai,
[21:30 - 21:40] because we know very well, of course, that we are only responsible in Denmark for 0.1%, actually less than that now. But we are also responsible for the global emissions,
[21:40 - 21:50] meaning that if we are to make a difference in the world, it's not enough to just reduce our emissions. We certainly need to do that. But we also need to do it in a way where we can inspire others
[21:50 - 21:59] and maybe hopefully collaborate with others that are much bigger than us to also reduce their emissions. And we do this in different ways.
[21:59 - 22:09] So we were invited to be a guest and a part of the G20 meetings on energy transition in India earlier this year.
[22:09 - 22:20] This is a place for us to share our best practices and experiences in our energy transition. But we also have 24 bilateral authority-to-authority collaborations around the world
[22:20 - 22:28] with countries that combined cover almost 80% of their emissions. What does that mean? Well, it means that we work with countries that are big emitters
[22:28 - 22:39] or countries that are developing nations that wish to embark on an energy transition with expertise. Simply, physically deploying Danish experts in the country,
[22:39 - 22:49] helping the transition happen, of course, also providing funding. And this is important in many places, but especially, I would say, in Africa.
[22:49 - 22:59] Fortunately, we have good friends that are doing the same, especially Germany. And yesterday we had a very good meeting following up on a launch
[22:59 - 23:11] made by our prime minister, Mette Frederiksen, last week together with the German chancellor. Can you just tell us a little bit about that? Can you just explain to the listeners the concept of this new collaboration that we're doing together with IRENA and different financial institutions?
[23:12 - 23:23] Certainly. It's called the Accelerated Partnership for Renewables in Africa, or APRA as the acronym goes. And it's a concept we have developed also with Kenya,
[23:23 - 23:33] where we combine technical assistance with bringing in financial institutions that can come up with guarantees and investment schemes. And then as a third leg, the investors,
[23:33 - 23:44] the private sector that can make scalable investments into renewable energy in these markets. And at the launch, we managed to get six African countries together,
[23:44 - 23:56] led by Kenya, the Kenyan President Ruto, took leadership, strong leadership in bringing Africa into the initiative and was joined by Namibia, Sierra Leone,
[23:56 - 24:08] Zimbabwe, Rwanda and Ethiopia. Going forward, we already have Danish cooperation with Kenya and Ethiopia, but we will, with a new team of experts at the Danish Energy Agency,
[24:08 - 24:18] start engaging the other countries and also bringing in, as I said, financial institutions, the Danish Development Finance Institution,
[24:18 - 24:27] IFU, our export credit agency, but also the African Development Bank and others. And at the session yesterday was also Danish investors.
[24:27 - 24:36] So it's a whole of Denmark approach to these countries. And then seeing the opportunities and clearly the African countries
[24:36 - 24:49] want to bring in more Africans into the tent as well. And there's a huge potential. I think the IRENA colleagues see this as the main platform
[24:49 - 25:00] for driving the tripling of renewable energy in Africa. And they hope that we can work together on setting up similar platforms for cooperation for Asia and Latin America.
[25:00 - 25:11] And there's a huge, huge potential there. And if I may just add, Minister, you and the Danish Crown Princess visited the Pacific earlier this year.
[25:11 - 25:20] You went to Vanuatu and to Fiji. And in Vanuatu, you promised two schoolgirls who spoke to you
[25:20 - 25:33] and the Crown Princess to work on both fossil phase out and building resilience. And you went to Fiji and met the Pacific Island Forum, the corporation amongst the Pacific Islands.
[25:33 - 25:43] And there we were asked if we wanted to support an energy commissioner in the Pacific. And we have offered that. We have money in the Danish budget for next year to do this.
[25:43 - 25:54] And now the leaders of all the Pacific Islands met two weeks ago and decided to establish this post. So we are also spending time here at COP talking to the Pacific Islands
[25:54 - 26:06] on how to help them with their energy transition. And since most of their energy is spent on diesel for ships, we are actually also talking to MASC and the MASC Center for Decarbonization of Shipping
[26:06 - 26:18] to come in and do maybe a pilot project out of Fiji that can help with the shipping dimension. These are, of course, small islands with small emissions, but they have a large voice at the UN.
[26:19 - 26:31] They are at the front end of climate change. And when they ask for our help, I think your decision and what you've witnessed with the Crown Princess, also to step forward and see what we can do. Certainly.
[26:31 - 26:43] I mean, these countries are hit very hard by climate change already now and in the future will be even more so. So we need to help as much as we can. Now, Thomas, we need to get back into the circus.
[26:43 - 26:54] I've just taken a photo. People, if they want to see it, they can find me on my social media platforms of how crazy it is that we're sitting here at a very quiet place. But in a huge empty storage room,
[26:55 - 27:06] there's even this old carpet. There's boxes everywhere. And it looks like something from a movie set. But anyway, we're going back into the negotiations and the talks. And we will see if we can find the time
[27:06 - 27:17] to update the listeners on the progress within the next week. And we'll definitely promise that after the negotiations, we will also have a talk on what the results were.
[27:18 - 27:28] But cross your fingers out there, because we are going into a very important, hopefully historic week. This is the most important COP since the Paris Agreement. The Paris Agreement was made.
[27:28 - 27:36] And I'm optimistic that we will have some very good results, even though a lot of things can, of course, go wrong. Thank you very much.