In this episode of Planet A Germany’s Special Climate Envoy, Jennifer Morgan, shares her insights from leading climate negotiations for the German Government.
A key focus of the discussion is the outcomes and implications of COP28 in Dubai, but the conversation also delves into the significance of Germany’s role in international climate finance and the establishment of the loss and damage fund.
Looking ahead, they discuss the road to COP29 and COP30, emphasizing the need for strategic financial planning and collaboration to achieve more ambitious national climate plans.
In this episode of Planet A Germany’s Special Climate Envoy, Jennifer Morgan, shares her insights from leading climate negotiations for the German Government.
A key focus of the discussion is the outcomes and implications of COP28 in Dubai, but the conversation also delves into the significance of Germany’s role in international climate finance and the establishment of the loss and damage fund.
Looking ahead, they discuss the road to COP29 and COP30, emphasizing the need for strategic financial planning and collaboration to achieve more ambitious national climate plans.
Transskribering – Jennifer Morgan
Speaker A
[00:00 - 00:02] Jennifer, so good to see you.
Speaker D
[00:02 - 00:03] Great to see you too.
Speaker A
[00:04 - 00:16] So the last time you were a guest in this podcast, you were actually the executive director of Greenpeace. But now you are a special envoy for climate change for the German government.
[00:17 - 00:19] Is that the correct title?
Speaker D
[00:20 - 00:23] It's close. Yeah, I'm state secretary and special envoy.
Speaker A
[00:23 - 00:34] Okay, okay. Maybe to start, it would be good if you could explain to our listeners, what does a state secretary and a special climate envoy actually do?
Speaker D
[00:34 - 00:40] Yeah, no. First of all, it's great to be here again. And thank you for including me.
[00:41 - 00:51] In this role, what a state secretary does, it's like a deputy minister in the foreign office, so in the State Department or Foreign Affairs Ministry.
[00:51 - 00:59] And the state secretaries are, yeah, those deputy ministers, most of them have broader portfolios.
[00:59 - 01:06] But with this government, Minister Baerbock wanted to have a particular focus on climate foreign policy.
[01:07 - 01:20] And so the government decided, the new government decided to have the climate portfolio and the negotiations come into the foreign office and to create a new state secretary role and special envoy role, which means that's all I do.
[01:20 - 01:35] Which is a lot still, but I, so I focus on the negotiations, but also all of our bilateral work, plurilateral, and all of society, not just governments.
Speaker A
[01:35 - 01:50] So I'm very, very pleased that Germany has chosen to have the international negotiations on climate change being conducted by the foreign minister.
[01:50 - 02:02] And now in Denmark, we have a similar, although not 100% similar approach, because I'm the minister responsible for the negotiations.
[02:02 - 02:15] And I'm also part of the foreign ministry. So I have two hats, so to speak. I'm both, I both have the foreign minister ministry and the ministry for climate working for me.
[02:15 - 02:24] And I represent them both in the negotiations. But maybe you can share with the listeners. The thoughts behind the German strategy.
[02:25 - 02:36] Why is it that it is an area that's in the foreign ministry, as opposed to most countries on the planet where it is an area that's in the ministry of environment or climate?
Speaker D
[02:37 - 02:47] Sure thing. We actually just published a climate foreign policy, which is an all of government approach, which was led out of the foreign office.
[02:47 - 02:55] And I think the thinking was that from a climate change perspective. We want to be using all of the different levers that we have to tackle the climate crisis.
[02:56 - 03:00] And many of those flow from the foreign office or other ministries.
[03:00 - 03:11] So whether it be our business relations, whether it be trade, whether it be looking at our humanitarian aid with the climate eye, whether it be our security.
[03:12 - 03:20] You know, we do work with NATO. We do work on climate and security around the world. And so being.
[03:20 - 03:32] Able to bring it into the foreign office, kind of all of those different levers and to use that. And I think in this moment, you know, I came in right after the Russian aggression against the Ukraine.
[03:32 - 03:39] And what we saw was that energy politics now are global foreign policy.
[03:39 - 03:50] And so to be thinking geopolitics together with climate and have climate be up at that level, I think, was was the rationale behind it. But of course, we also have a team.
[03:50 - 04:03] Deutschland approach, which means there are many ministries that are very important and we work closely together. Obviously, you know, our economics and climate action ministry, the environment ministry, the finance ministry.
[04:03 - 04:05] But we try and keep it aligned.
Speaker A
[04:06 - 04:08] Well, it makes it makes perfect sense.
[04:08 - 04:20] And I think more and more countries will will choose to have this approach because, as you said, climate policies and climate related issues are really covering. All.
[04:20 - 04:30] All fields of of of a government, obviously, but but certainly it needs to be an integrated part of of any country's foreign policy.
[04:32 - 04:41] Now, you and I have worked very closely together in many, many aspects and many different negotiations.
[04:41 - 04:50] But the one that I want to talk about now is is the one that we just finalized, which was the COP 28. In. In.
[04:50 - 05:01] Dubai, can you share with with the listeners your evaluation of of the result? How how did the COP 28 go, in your opinion?
Speaker D
[05:02 - 05:07] Well, first of all, it's excellent that we collaborate so closely.
[05:07 - 05:19] And I think because of that and also because of how we work within the EU, that we can say that COP 28, I like to say it was both historic and not.
[05:19 - 05:31] Not enough at the same time. It was historic because finally, even though it seems incredible to people that fossil fuels had never been negotiated, we had a real.
[05:31 - 05:39] Negotiation about the future of fossil fuels and decided to transition away from fossil fuels with all countries of the world there.
[05:40 - 05:49] And to triple renewable energy and double efficiency by 2030, you know, in line with the science and all of that put together gets more. And to triple renewable energy and double efficiency by 2030, you know, in line with the science and all of that put together gets more.
[05:49 - 06:00] Into the real economy or into sending the signals to investors and businesses, I think, than ever before. Into the real economy or into sending the signals to investors and businesses, I think, than ever before. But of course, at the same time, it's far from enough.
[06:01 - 06:11] We're on track for temperature rises that we don't even want to imagine what the impacts would be. And so from that perspective, it's, you know, getting this implemented.
[06:12 - 06:21] I think the third piece, though, which was really important was especially in this moment of geopolitics. I think the third piece, though, which was really important was especially in this moment of geopolitics. And that was that multilaterally we came together.
[06:22 - 06:28] We had a lot of different views, as you know very well, having facilitated one of the key parts of those negotiations.
[06:29 - 06:36] But the world managed to come together and multilateralism functions because I think the climate crisis is hitting so many people.
[06:36 - 06:48] And because I think people are seeing that the way out of the climate crisis with renewable energy and decarbonizing actually brings benefits and new opportunities to countries that never thought they would have them.
Speaker A
[06:50 - 06:59] And really, when you think about it, it's quite incredible that we are in the middle of a very, very difficult geopolitical situation for many reasons.
[06:59 - 07:11] But, of course, the war in Ukraine and the situation in Gaza being the two most important ones. And also the fact that COP28 was hosted by an oil state.
[07:11 - 07:24] Many people saw that as a negative thing and something that would make it more difficult to reach a result. But actually, in my opinion, maybe you can also share your thoughts on that.
[07:24 - 07:40] I think it showed itself to be an advantage that the UAE, led by Dr. Sultan Al-Jabbar, were the hosts because they were able to speak to other oil states with credibility.
[07:41 - 07:52] And the visions that they put forward then, in the end, ended up being realistic. Something. Something that has not happened for many years, decades even.
[07:52 - 08:00] So those two things put together, the fact that it was and still is a very complex and difficult geopolitical situation,
[08:01 - 08:13] and the fact that the COP was held in an oil state, for many people, made it almost impossible to comprehend that we would reach a result. And we did, in fact, then do that.
Speaker D
[08:13 - 08:22] Yeah, indeed. I mean, I think there were multiple factors. Of course, around the results and getting those results.
[08:22 - 08:31] I think having it in an oil and gas producing country, it made it front and center more than ever before.
[08:31 - 08:46] And I think having it an unavoidable kind of truce that needed to be addressed and having a COP president who was ready to make the space for it was, I think, essential.
[08:47 - 08:48] Absolutely.
[08:48 - 09:05] I think the other piece, which was a result and which I think also was vital for the outcome, was to get that loss and damage funds up and running and get the initial, just the initial funds coming in and to do that in such a short period of time.
[09:05 - 09:17] And I know for Germany and for Denmark, the finance piece of the puzzle and the loss and damage piece is just absolutely essential. And I think that allowed those.
[09:17 - 09:38] Those countries that have fought so long for that loss and damage fund then to be able to focus on the fossil fuel phase out in a way that maybe they wouldn't be able to otherwise and work with countries in Europe to get that outcome and to take the space that was offered by the presidency to do that.
Speaker A
[09:39 - 09:47] Yes. And I want to also commend Germany for your vital role there because it was actually Germany.
[09:47 - 09:56] Germany and the UAE that were the first countries to pledge real money for the fund and not a small amount either.
[09:56 - 10:07] It was, if I'm not mistaken, 100 million U.S. dollars each from each country. So that made it happen. We, my own country, also pledged a substantial amount and others did as well.
[10:07 - 10:20] So that was also important, not only because it's important because these money are needed, but also because it helped build trust in the process.
[10:21 - 10:25] So, Jennifer, now we are moving towards COP29.
[10:26 - 10:34] Next month, we will have a meeting here in Copenhagen, the Copenhagen Climate Ministerial, for the third year in a row.
[10:34 - 10:46] We hope that that will make a platform for discussions that can kickstart the process towards COP29. Thank you.
[10:46 - 10:50] And in your opinion, what needs to be at the focus of these deliberations?
Speaker D
[10:51 - 11:01] I think the key element for this year and going into COP30 in Brazil, which we need to think all the way out there,
[11:03 - 11:16] number one will be the finance issue on a number of different components. I mean, we know, OK, the direction we need to go in. We also need to build resilience across all the economies. But how we finance it.
[11:16 - 11:29] And there's many different processes going on right now, as you know, within the World Bank, within discussions around debt forgiveness for countries that just have no potential to be doing anything.
[11:29 - 11:40] They're just paying their debt payments. There's questions around new forms of finance, whether it be kind of fees on business class flights or maritime.
[11:40 - 11:49] I mean, all kinds of different ideas there. And it's clear we have a set of the funds that are needed. And there's different numbers that have been put out there.
[11:49 - 12:15] But now how we get to work to shift that those funds over to where is needed and also to assess, OK, where should public money be going and what should its role be and who contributes to that, which is, you know, got to be a very challenging discussion because it's clear from the Paris agreement that it's no longer only developed countries.
[12:15 - 12:27] Right. I think we need to see it in this very big picture and really take on the large issue of finance, shifting the trillions and the financing in order to also to enable more ambition.
[12:28 - 12:34] Because we're all in the process of doing our next national plans, our nationally determined contributions.
[12:35 - 12:45] And those two things playing together, I think, are essential both on the trust piece that you mentioned, which is so essential, but also so that these plans that we're doing are.
[12:46 - 12:57] Really economic investment transition plans away from fossil fuels towards renewables, building resilience and thinking with to think it all together. It's complex. It's complex.
[12:57 - 13:03] But I think we can do it in the Copenhagen meeting. I'm sure will be a very useful space to kick that off.
Speaker A
[13:04 - 13:16] Well, we definitely hope that it will be. And then, of course, later this spring, Germany will host the Petersburg dialogue, as you also do every year.
[13:16 - 13:25] And then in June in Bonn, there will be the technical meetings of the UNFCCC and and then there'll be the pre-COP and then there'll be the COP.
[13:25 - 13:30] So and I've probably forgot some other important meetings also.
[13:30 - 13:42] It's just to say to to our listeners that the COP negotiations are not only taking place those one or two weeks in the end of November, start of December every year.
[13:42 - 13:51] They actually also start much earlier in more. Formal settings. Now, the topic of financing is so important.
[13:51 - 14:01] And obviously what is on everybody's mind now in these negotiations is that we are moving past the goal of one hundred billion dollars a year.
[14:01 - 14:12] That was promised back in 2009 at COP 15 and and finally now delivered last year for the first for the first time. It's a little bit embarrassing. I'm sure both.
[14:13 - 14:24] I'm sure you will agree with with me. And. And. And that that it's that it was so difficult to to mobilize one hundred billion a year since we know that we need trillions.
[14:25 - 14:33] So so in in in in in that sense, it's quite frustrating that it it has taken so long and that it was so difficult.
[14:33 - 14:45] And we need to think very detailed about how to make sure that a new target is is one.
[14:46 - 14:49] That actually accommodates what we need.
[14:49 - 15:03] So this is a question, of course, about the amount that goes without saying, but just as important as you alluded to, is the architecture of this target, because we need to to mobilize private investments also.
[15:03 - 15:15] We need to make sure that there is also money enough to not only invest in mitigation efforts, which are extremely important.
[15:15 - 15:23] obviously, but also in adaptation efforts, which quite frequently are not necessarily as good a
[15:23 - 15:31] business case as mitigation efforts might be. So there are a lot of very difficult discussions
[15:31 - 15:39] ahead of us. And it's also clear that the question of financing influences the other questions.
[15:39 - 15:49] So not only does it carry merits in itself, it also has a really quite direct effect on the
[15:49 - 16:02] possibilities of having the ambitious NDCs that you talked about that we need. But Jennifer, I also want to ask you about what you as a country are doing concretely with regards to financing,
[16:02 - 16:09] because you are really a frontrunner. I would like to think that my own country is as well. But Germany is,
[16:11 - 16:20] it's more than 0.7% of your GDP every year to development aid, as I understand it. And a big
[16:20 - 16:32] part of that has a green label, so to speak. So it goes to both climate adaptation and mitigation efforts. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Absolutely. I mean, I think the finance
Speaker D
[16:32 - 16:39] piece is, I totally agree with what you were just saying. And I think this is a moment to step back and look at the whole thing about how we are doing.
[16:39 - 16:47] How we really finance the transformation of our societies in a way that's fair. And Germany,
[16:47 - 16:59] I think, does, tries to do our best in a number of different ways. So we give about 6 billion euros a year. We had the target to achieve that by 2025. We've already achieved that and
[16:59 - 17:08] will work to stay at that level. Of course, you know, in the climate negotiations, we'd always like to be going further than that. But I think that's a good start. And we
[17:08 - 17:19] are working with you and others also work to have the Green Climate Fund have a new strategy that really responded to what developing countries were looking for. As you know, that's the main
[17:19 - 17:31] multilateral financial institution of the Paris Agreement. And so having access for the small island states, having, addressing adaptation as well as mitigation and getting it replenished to
[17:31 - 17:43] the higher level than, you know, than it's, than it was before. And so move forward on that, as well. And have something called the Global Shield, which was launched as part of the G7 with
[17:43 - 17:56] the V20. That's to work on the issues of loss and damage and resilience with a group of countries to see actually how to get things in place before a huge disaster hits so that money can be moving
[17:56 - 18:08] quickly. Because as we know, and the loss and damage side of things, when these climate impacts hit, you just need the support and you also need it throughout into the rebuilding. So that Global Shield initiative from,
[18:08 - 18:21] from kind of catalyzed by Germany, but certainly owned by the V, the vulnerable 20 countries, et cetera, was also an effort to move things, move things forward very concretely. I think the area
[18:21 - 18:27] where I'm most excited about, Dan, is in the area of the partnerships that Germany is working on
[18:27 - 18:38] with our partner countries, also with, with other contributor countries. So we have over 30 energy partnerships around the world and some,
[18:38 - 18:43] climate and energy partnerships and are really working on a new paradigm for those partnerships
[18:43 - 18:56] where they create local value creation. They move away from just an extractive kind of a model. I mean, often in the energy field, as you know, we're, we are transitioning away from fossil
[18:56 - 19:08] use and building up renewables. And that means we're looking for green hydrogen to be coming and working with countries. It's kind of what I mean, like a Columbia or a Kenya that never thought they could be energy powerhouses.
[19:08 - 19:19] And now see that they could work together. So those new kinds of partnerships on eye level that we're working. You have a big partnership with Namibia, right? Huge, huge partnership, as I understand it,
Speaker A
[19:19 - 19:22] with Namibia around exactly this area, right?
Speaker D
[19:22 - 19:30] Exactly. Yeah. That's one of the, the larger ones we're working with them to see, okay, how can number one energy
[19:30 - 19:38] access be the first goal, of course, for countries that don't have it. And then number two, what, what's the model where the local.
[19:38 - 20:00] Communities and where it creates a, a local, locally skilled workforce, which we know is essential in every country. And then, you know, the export of, of derivatives or of green hydrogen to Europe at the end of the day as a new income source for them to be building their development goals, achieving their development goals.
Speaker A
[20:01 - 20:08] But no doubt that these partnerships are making a huge difference in, in, in many countries. And we also have one that, that we work with.
[20:09 - 20:38] Which is APRA, Accelerated Partnership for Renewables in Africa. It was launched by your Chancellor and my Prime Minister and President Ruto and others in, in, in Kenya last year. And that's, that's an example of, of a collaboration where technical assistance, political collaboration, mobilizing of financing are all a part of, of the same framework.
[20:38 - 20:39] And, and the same framework.
[20:39 - 21:04] And, and there's, there's five countries, as, as far as I remember, a part of it now in Africa and, and, and maybe it can even be expanded. Let's see how it goes. But, but I, I do think that these are really models for the future. Do you also see, as a country that does this bilaterally and sometimes with partners like, like Denmark, but do you also see a bigger role for the European Union globally in these areas?
Speaker D
[21:04 - 21:09] Absolutely. I mean, obviously everything that we do is, is within the European Union.
[21:09 - 21:39] European Union and the goals and targets that we have. But I think, you know, we are working together as Europe on our decarbonization plans for an economically prosperous future of Europe, but also in how we think of our relations with others, you know, thinking, of course, critical raw materials, hydrogen, Europe, you know, neighborhood, then beyond together, how to actually create
[21:39 - 22:08] those markets moving forward. And then looking at from a, you know, from a foreign policy perspective, how we can be building those new partnerships to build the trust with those countries to move forward on a multilateral climate, just future. And also working together in country, because I think that's where it's so powerful as Europe. We all have embassies there and working together, speaking
[22:08 - 22:38] with, you know, a similar voice in those places and looking at what do each of the member states have that we can bring and pull together into something that's, that's really attractive for countries that, because I think we're on the cusp of like, switching over to this transformation where countries like Kenya see the opportunity for their use for new jobs, but now we need to deliver that. And I think Europe is a, is a drop can be a driving
[22:38 - 22:40] needs to be a driving force for that. Absolutely.
Speaker A
[23:08 - 23:38] But we need the US, we need China and India, all countries on the planet, obviously, but especially the biggest ones on board. And then now, we have the Inflation Reduction Act in the US, we have China and India, India that are deploying renewables at an unprecedented pace, things that are fundamentally very positive. But that challenges us in Europe, because we risk losing competitiveness and a lot of
[23:38 - 23:44] countries are feeling under pressure. I would love to hear your take on this situation.
Speaker D
[23:45 - 24:06] Our competition with others, it needs to be fair. And, and I think, you know, we're all working on getting that to happen. My observation, Dan, is that a lot is happening in Europe, that's bringing a lot of prosperity and, and opportunity, but it's not very visible.
[24:06 - 24:08] That there are many
[24:08 - 24:38] small, medium sized enterprises, many startups that are, have come up through the Green Deal, and, and, and are quite profitable in Europe, but also seeing the opportunities internationally. And that the other thing that links it back to COP 28 is that, you know, each country is going its own way to get there, but it's moving. And so those countries that have been
[24:38 - 25:08] have companies that have already started and are for producing the green steel are able to produce the green steel for those markets. I think that's, that's those markets will can be, you know, are much more attractive, and much more doable, I would say, for those companies that have already had those types of experiences at home. So I think, though, at the same time, we need to be making sure that in the policymaking we're doing that it's socially just.
[25:08 - 25:08] Right. that it's socially just. that it's socially just.
[25:08 - 25:31] We talked about abroad, but that, you know, if there are higher costs that come, that there are either incentives or there are different funds, that there are different ways of making sure that the social justice issues that come along with this are also taken care of.
[25:31 - 25:55] Because we know oftentimes it's those communities in our own countries that are the most vulnerable to the impacts and are the most vulnerable to some of the responses. And that's a choice for a social, ecological, economic kind of transformation. And that's what we're trying to do and working on in Germany and I think across Europe. And we need to talk about that more and listen more as well.
Speaker A
[25:56 - 25:59] I very much agree. And I think also.
[26:01 - 26:18] Apart from the necessity for us to be better at communicating the positive effects of a green transformation, the possible job creation, the positive health effects by having cleaner air when you don't pollute as much, all of these things.
[26:18 - 26:30] Apart from that, we also need to explain the alternative, explain the risk of staying in a fossil driven economy. This is very often.
[26:31 - 26:54] Forgotten in the analysis. I mean, yeah, yeah, in Europe, for sure. But I would say probably even more so in many developing countries, because I do understand the temptation if you are a poor country that wants to raise the standard of living for your people and and you have resources below the sea or below the ground, it's it's tempting to to exploit them.
[26:54 - 27:01] But you might end up making some very bad choices and some very bad investments because the price is going to go up.
[27:01 - 27:08] Yeah, I mean, you know, the price of oil and gas and all the other forces is going to go down and it's going to be outcompeted by renewables. Why is that?
[27:08 - 27:24] At the same time, it's clear that, for instance, if we go if we we go back to the example of many African countries, they actually have an abundance potentially of renewable energy because of the wind and because of the sun.
[27:25 - 27:28] So that needs to be a part of this analysis. Also, I would I would say, would you agree?
Speaker D
[27:29 - 27:36] I agree. I mean, I think it's also. You know, what I find is we often have two debates about climate in our countries.
[27:36 - 27:44] We have the debate about, OK, how much is it going to cost to shift to to phase out fossil fuels or to to go to net zero?
[27:44 - 27:53] And then we have this separate, separate kind of thing happening where climate impacts are happening at an extraordinary rate in our countries.
[27:53 - 28:00] I know. I mean, I can say in Germany, the droughts that we have had, the the and then at the same time,
[28:00 - 28:10] the floods and the costs of those impacts to our societies and to our people and to their homes and to insurance and all of that. And we don't think of those things together.
[28:11 - 28:19] And we have to because the investment in one is is in order to reduce the risks and the costs of the other. So I definitely agree with that.
[28:20 - 28:30] And I think geopolitics of energy now and where we are on climate, the reason why these partnerships and new approaches are so important, because there is an unjust situation here. You know, where developed countries have.
[28:30 - 28:38] Exploited fossil fuels for so long, and now, you know, we're at a temperature rise that's creating terrible impacts.
[28:38 - 28:45] And so for developing countries, the alternative has to be just as profitable and better for their people.
[28:46 - 28:59] And that's where I think working together on on how to make that happen through the many different different ways, I think, is so essential from a climate perspective, but also from a equity and justice perspective.
Speaker A
[29:00 - 29:05] Yes. Well, and the question of equity is is obviously extremely important.
[29:05 - 29:15] And one attempt to to deal with this and look at this holistically has been the just energy transition partnerships it is.
[29:16 - 29:23] And they right now it's in South Africa, Indonesia and Vietnam.
Speaker D
[29:23 - 29:23] And Senegal.
Speaker A
[29:24 - 29:33] And Senegal. Yes. As the last latest one. How do you see these? These platforms or ways of working?
[29:35 - 29:46] On one hand, it's it seems like finally we have collaborations that has a scale also in the financing that makes a real difference. And it focuses also on the social issues.
[29:47 - 29:59] On the other hand, there's been some criticism that it's going too slow. It's too bureaucratic. Is there really any added value with regards to mitigation efforts?
[29:59 - 30:01] These questions have been raised. What's what's your opinion?
Speaker D
[30:02 - 30:07] I think I think it's a journey. And I think that it is taking time.
[30:08 - 30:22] I mean, think about South Africa and a country that is understandably, I mean, a just energy transition away from coal step by step in South Africa is a massive economic, ecological, political.
[30:22 - 30:27] You could say the same for every country, but those take time. So.
[30:27 - 30:42] But I think the and we're learning is the other thing, but I think the idea, the principle behind it of having a group of donor of contributor countries come together and and have on eye level.
[30:42 - 30:50] And that's the key. The the host country, the developing countries say, OK, this is our plan and this is our investment plan that we are putting forward.
[30:50 - 30:56] And then to be able to pull those different resources from contributors to go into that transformation.
[30:56 - 31:06] That that can increase the ambition or the pace of the the coal, the transition away from fossil fuels in those countries.
[31:06 - 31:17] I think I think that as a colonel is a good thing. I think there's more to be done on private sector engagement. There's more to be done in some of the countries on civil society engagement.
[31:17 - 31:26] So some of the governance issues I think we need and are looking at to see how to improve those. And also making sure that the different financial.
[31:26 - 31:37] Instruments that are being used are hitting the mark and also that the country is putting in place the policies and measures that are needed. But I I think it's worth it.
[31:37 - 31:41] I think, you know, we need new ways of trying things and we'll learn from these.
[31:41 - 31:51] We'll do the best we can and keep going and and then and then get better at it because the alternative is not acceptable, which is just to keep going the way we're going.
[31:51 - 31:56] And we know that that that pathway leads far above two degrees. I 100 percent agree.
Speaker A
[31:56 - 32:08] And you could almost turn the question around and ask, did you expect this to be easy? I mean, obviously it's not. It's a huge challenge.
[32:08 - 32:23] So that even the fact that we are now trying to deal with this as as an international community, helping these countries that that has such a huge challenge in front of them, I think, is positive.
[32:23 - 32:34] And and the fact that there's also real money, real money. Real funding allocated here that that can actually make make a difference is is a very good starting point.
[32:35 - 32:44] Jennifer, thank you so much for for this conversation. Extremely interesting as as always. Keep up the good work and we'll see each other soon.
Speaker D
[32:44 - 32:49] Yeah. Thank you, Dan. Thanks for your leadership on these issues. And yeah, we'll keep up the fight.