In this episode of Planet A, Dan Jørgensen sits down with EU Commissioner for Climate Action, Wopke Hoekstra, to explore the central role he plays in shaping the European Union’s approach to reducing emissions. Transitioning from a career in the energy sector to a key climate policy leader, Hoekstra offers unique insights into the EU’s climate targets and strategies.
They discuss the EU’s own emission targets as well as its role as a global influencer in climate action. Hoekstra emphasizes the importance of a just transition that balances both environmental sustainability and economic growth, addressing concerns about job transitions and public dissent.
He stresses that environmental policy must consider the livelihoods and futures of those it impacts, underscoring the necessity of policies that safeguard livelihoods and open doors to new opportunities.
Tune in for an insightful exploration of the EU’s climate strategies and the work of an EU Commissioner in driving global climate action.
In this episode of Planet A, Dan Jørgensen sits down with EU Commissioner for Climate Action, Wopke Hoekstra, to explore the central role he plays in shaping the European Union’s approach to reducing emissions. Transitioning from a career in the energy sector to a key climate policy leader, Hoekstra offers unique insights into the EU’s climate targets and strategies.
They discuss the EU’s own emission targets as well as its role as a global influencer in climate action. Hoekstra emphasizes the importance of a just transition that balances both environmental sustainability and economic growth, addressing concerns about job transitions and public dissent.
He stresses that environmental policy must consider the livelihoods and futures of those it impacts, underscoring the necessity of policies that safeguard livelihoods and open doors to new opportunities.
Tune in for an insightful exploration of the EU’s climate strategies and the work of an EU Commissioner in driving global climate action.
Transskribering – Wopke Hoekstra
Speaker A
The European Union now is responsible for 7% of global emissions. And that is not to say that we should not kick down further this number ASAP. But having said that, solving the 7% simply is not enough.
We need to make sure that the whole world steps up its gears and make sure we do more. The direction of travel is the right one, but we simply have to increase the pace.
Speaker B
If we are to stay below 1.5 degrees in temperature increase, we need the European Union to be a leader.
Today I speak to EU Commissioner for Climate Action, Vopke Hoekstra, about what that means. How much and how will the European Union reduce the country's emissions of greenhouse gases?
And which role does the EU play in the international climate negotiations? Welcome to Planet A, a podcast on climate change. My name is Dan Jørgensen.
I'm Minister for Development, Cooperation and Global Climate Policy in Denmark. In a series of conversations, I ask some of the world's leading experts, policymakers, authors and activists how to stem climate change.
Speaker A
We, the human species, are confronting a planetary emergency. For more than 30 years, the science has been crystal clear.
Other speaker
The reason I believe we need to act now is because the facts are staring us in the face. The time to answer human questions is now. Mankind's greatest challenge is now.
This gives us the best possible shot to save the one planet we've got.
Speaker A
There is no Plan B, because we do not have Planet B.
Speaker B
Welcome to Planet A. Today I have the privilege of speaking to the EU Commissioner for Climate Action, Vopke Hoekstra.
He has served as both Minister of Finance and Minister of Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands. And he's also had the role of Second Deputy Prime Minister.
But last year, he left Dutch politics and became the Commissioner for Climate Action when Frans Timmermans left the position. This puts him at the forefront of the fight to reduce European emissions.
And it makes him a key player in the international climate negotiations. Vopke, welcome to my podcast.
Speaker A
Thank you very much for having me, Dan.
Speaker B
It's fantastic to have you here now. You and I work, of course, very closely together. So I'm very well aware how busy a man you are and what a fantastic job you do.
But I am actually pretty sure that many of our listeners, since we have a very international audience from all over the world, probably not necessarily know what an EU Commissioner for Climate Action actually do.
So can you start by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and your portfolio? Thank you.
Other speaker
And again, thank you very much for having me. And by the way,
Speaker A
I think it is tremendous that you are doing this because one thing is making sure we as commissioners and ministers take action
in making sure we deal with the clear and present danger of climate change. But at least as important is to also communicate about the why, the what and the how.
So I've always thought it was really cool that you're making this podcast. The thing I am doing is,
is basically shaping and executing a climate policy of the European Union.
We have 27 member states and climate policy to a very large extent for each of the member states is European. The laws are European.
And of course, the execution is nationally and regionally and very often also locally. But we have united on a common package, if you will, of legislation and policies.
And for that, I am responsible. And of course, I'm also responsible for, let's say, coordinating and leading the international negotiations,
the European Union and its member states embargo. Having said that, you know, it's this truly is a team sport.
There is tremendous power within the European Union. And I can never do such a role successfully.
Without the tremendous help and effort, the 27 climate ministers put in it. But by the way, also the various foreign ministers put in it and all the governments put in it.
The commission can only be effective together with the member states.
Speaker B
Yes. And let's dive into the actual legislation that you mentioned and the actual action internally in the European Union. And then later speak about the international negotiations.
Where are we now in the European Union?
We are in a situation where we've actually, within the last couple of years, adopted extremely ambitious legislation, regulation, and set very high targets.
And they are now in the process of being implemented and we are formulating new targets. Can you give us an overview of where we are?
Speaker A
Absolutely. So, and this is indeed, this has been, I think, the most important step. And we've done this for all the right reasons with the right level of ambition.
And I can easily say this because this was before I came into office. So, just sort of compliments, you know, I have to go to you and to everyone who was present at the time.
We have set a 55% target for 2030, which my best guess is we will exceed by a couple of percentage points.
And our estimate now is that we will reach 50%. We will reach 57 by 2030.
We've also, like many others on the globe, we have committed to a target of 100% emission reduction by 2050.
And then, of course, you know, push the question on the table, how are you going to spend the years in between, between 2030 and 2050?
And what we have recently come up with as a European Commission, is a new and ambitious target for 2040 with a number of prerequisites that go hand in hand with the ambition,
prerequisites on competitiveness, prerequisites on a just and fair transition to our citizens and our companies and our countries, our member states.
And we feel it is both realistic, ambitious, and also right to seek to arrive at 90% reduction by 2040.
And that is, you know, what the goal is. And the next Commission will further develop. Next to that, but we might come back to that in a second, it is very important that we continue with all the international climate diplomacy.
Just to give you one number, the European Union now is responsible for 7% of global emissions. And that is not to say that we should not kick down further this number ASAP. We have the affluence to do it.
We want to take the responsibility. We want to continue in a leading role. But having said that, solving the 7% simply is not the answer.
not enough uh we need to make sure that the whole world uh steps up its gears and and and and make
sure we we do more the direction of travel is the right one but we simply have to increase the pace
Speaker B
yes so you you rightly mentioned uh that the european union is uh extremely ambitious both
long term and and and short term uh let's let's talk a little bit about the short term because
because the 55 percent reduction at least 55 reduction and it'll probably be 57 as you as you
say in 2030 this is compared to 1990 is really a high number and it means that we fundamentally
need to change the way we produce and consume energy in the european union we also need to do other things of course in the transport sector in in our buildings and in the agriculture sector but
it's especially especially industry and energy production that will carry the biggest uh reductions so maybe you
can elaborate a little bit on the actual actions the tools that with the policy tools that that is
Speaker A
being deployed how will we reach this Target yes it's a very good question and I think the the one
thing we have chosen in our design and again this was was done a a a long time ago is to make sure that we
focus on each and every sector and of course the ambition is different and the pathway is different and the one industry cannot always be compared to the next uh but it's truly something
that we should do all across our societies and then it's simply that is simply the uh the the
name of the game um but let me also mention two specifics one is a a large part of all our emissions
we seek to tackle with our emissions trading system at the ETS. We have created a carbon market in the European Union, and you could actually say that that
is both the working horse and the crown jewel of our climate policy.
This truly has been the game changer because it puts an objective measure and it also applies
market dynamics to reducing carbon, and that I feel has been at the very heart of the success of the European Union.
Just to make sure that I also make it specific, knowing that it is very generic what we do,
so we do it across sectors, but just to give you one example, we set a very clear target for electrifying the car market. So by 2035, all new vehicles will be electrified.
All new vehicles for personnel, I'm not talking about trucks here, but cars that will be sold have to be electric.
And as you can imagine, that takes significant effort because that has huge ramifications not only for our car manufacturers, but it is also huge ramifications for the infrastructure
that will then need to be into existence across the European Union because people need to fuel up. And then fuel up electrically their cars.
And third, it has huge ramifications for the grid, for the network. But what you see here in places that we have, it is now 2024, we set a specific target for
2035 and we together embark on this transition. Well knowing, of course, that some will very easily make it. I think your country in particular has already.
already, you know, has gone through a very impressive first phase of electrification. By the way, the same is true for the whole of Scandinavia. Of course, the Norwegians are not part of our union, but I think they're already above
90% of new car sales and, and I might not have the number completely correctly, but I think the Swedes are roughly at half. But of course, some of the member states are also at earlier stages.
The one thing I'm very positive about is that, you know, with the combination of goal setting, creating predictability for our industry and all the industrial leaders I talked to ask
for specifically that predictability in, so that they can plan, this will push for innovation.
And I am pretty sure we make it and we will actually outperform the 2035 date.
Speaker B
Well, I think that that's a very important point.
That very often when we adopt the legislation, we sometimes also have the opportunity to be able to subsidize certain solutions.
When we set targets that everybody needs to live up to, all of these things that are possible at a European level, in order to get all countries to deliver.
Very often, it actually, we actually end up in a situation where we overestimate the potential of the country.
And in the end, they will be very lucrative. And I also like to remind people that my own country, for instance, that sometimes seem seen as a front runner on, especially in the energy sector.
When we started our transition, we did in the 1970s. This wasn't primarily because of the green agenda. It was because of the oil crisis. We wanted to be independent.
So we started developing renewable energy technology and energy efficiency technology. And in the end, they will be very lucrative. technology.
So only later did it become a primary reason for our actions that we also wanted to contribute to saving the climate. And I think more and more countries are experiencing this now.
And I certainly applaud the fact that the European Commission has also done this within a narrative of a growth strategy.
So this is not about regulating and putting limits to our growth. It's actually about creating and facilitating better opportunities for creating jobs and
competitiveness in the European Union. Would you agree to that?
Speaker A
No, absolutely. Absolutely. And the interesting thing is that there is an ever broader set of reasons to embark on this transition.
Clearly, given the clear and present danger we're facing in terms of climate, the climate crisis. You know, there is an excellent reason to do more.
And I mean, don't take my word for it, but take the word of scientists for it, who will tell you that the planet has only red lines left and the window of opportunity to do something
about it is actually closing. So that in itself should already be a motivator, but you're absolutely right. If you then think about the other reasons to do it, clearly there is increasingly a
business case. I mean, and your country is at the very forefront, particularly in the domain of wind, but also in other aspects of the whole transition.
And thousands and thousands and thousands of people in Denmark are making a very good living out of this.
And whenever there is a business case and there is an upside, rather than, you know, there is this hard thing that unfortunately you need to do, it is much more motivating
to people. And so I think that is the second one. And then the third one, and it is interesting that you're mentioning the oil crisis. I think what we have learned the hard way as European Union throughout the summer of
2022 is that energy dependency, in this case, primarily on Russia, was actually a very unwise thing. That of course is true for the broader domain of resources.
It is certainly true for energy, but if you think about this more geopolitically, there are...
There are dependencies that the European Union would and should actually decrease rather than increase.
And that is also a very good reason to make sure we not only move into the domain of renewables
and we green our economy, but that we actually do it in a way that, you know, many of these things are being produced here at home.
Speaker B
Excellent. Excellent points. I will have to say though, and that's as much a comment on my own arguments as it is
on yours, Vopke, that we probably need to be careful that when we put forward these
visions and ambitions, it doesn't sound like we are neglecting the developments that threaten some people's livelihood and causes insecurity.
Security because people need to change jobs or they fear higher living expenses. I mean, all of these things that you sometimes see manifest themselves in protests in the
streets, of course, the most famous one being the yellow jerseys in Paris a couple of years back. Would you agree with me that we need to be better at also providing clear answers for
the people that fear that the green transition will probably not be that green for them personally? Sure. But also as to make sure that this is a people centered and just transition?
Speaker A
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's the way I always tend to basically cite this and state this is that, you know, if
you look at our research, you see that roughly 80% of the Europeans is very worried about climate change and want us policymakers to do more. Right. Right.
and part of that same people are worried what the transition might mean for their jobs, for their neighborhoods, for their way of living.
And therefore, it is of the utmost importance, and that is again, that is the challenge that we face as decision makers. It is complicated, but that is what decision making is. It's never one dimensional.
We basically need to make sure we stand on two legs. The one leg is the lack of increased climate action. And again, don't do it for me, but do it because we simply don't have an alternative.
You only need to look at all the floodings, all the droughts, all the adverse weather effects that are taking place to know that this is a worldwide, but certainly also a
European problem. So continue with climate action. And yet the other leg we need to stand on is the lack of a truly just transition for our citizens.
Is the lack of true competitiveness for our citizens. Our businesses. Is the lack of making sure that our industries can thrive, change, but thrive in the decades to come.
Because the worst thing we could do is have companies leave European soil, either go bust
or ship out, and then continue with policies that are not in the interest of climate and
the environment, while at the same time also depriving Europeans of jobs. It should be rather the other way around.
And that is why the Green Deal and the whole transition has a green and a business angle to it. You cannot have one without the other.
It's also not a matter of balancing them out and saying that one is a bit... You need to do a bit less of one and more of the other. No.
We need to be in full, full gear, run at full speed, both on the action, on the just transition, and on the competitiveness.
Speaker B
Oh, I think that you are totally right. I think though that it is easier said than done. I mean, you and I agree on these issues.
And I think actually probably there's a consensus, more or less in the European Union that this is the approach. Most governments would say that this is also what they're attempting.
But when you then actually have to implement these ideas and values, it becomes difficult. Because...
It's very clear, for instance, that in most countries, you will create more jobs than you will lose in a green transition. So that's good news.
But for the person actually losing his or her job, if the new jobs created are not viable
for them, if it's not in the same region where they live, if the qualifications that they have cannot be used in the new industries, then for them personally, it doesn't really matter what we policymakers say.
And how many nice speeches we give. So I guess, and this is a difficult question, and I don't have the answers myself, so you probably don't either. But nonetheless, I would ask you to elaborate a little bit on that.
How do we then actually do this concretely on a European level?
Speaker A
You know, you're absolutely right. And that, by the way, is precisely why we came up with tools such as the Just Transition Fund, and the Social Climate Fund. Which are meant...
To make sure that regions can thrive, where actually this change is imminent. That we can make sure that those who might move from one job to the next, or have a job
that asks for different skills, do get trained, do get educated to make sure that there is a bright future in front of them.
You know, change has been part of our lives. And regardless of... You know, the green transition, if you look at any type of job that people are having
today, and you compare what that job was like 20, 30 years ago, you see that first of all, many people have jobs that simply did not exist.
Just think about, you know, everyone who's making a living out of web design, or whatever is related to selling stuff online, it simply didn't exist when you and I were young.
I don't know exactly how old you are, but I think roughly my age, you know. I can still recall that I went with...
When I went grocery shopping with my mother, and she had a banking pass in one purse, and she had a checkbook in the other. And that would be the way she was paying for the groceries.
And now what my kids are doing, there is someone calling in our door, and they're putting this card, you know, on a little machine that none of us truly understands, or even their phone. And that's what we're doing.
And that gives my kids at least the illusion that, you know, there's always money, and that you see, as long as you have this card, you can do whatever. So these things are changing, and they always change.
New jobs are there to... New jobs will continue to come. But even if you look at more classic jobs, they have changed significantly.
And part of human nature is that we have to adapt to these changes. And I think part of the obligation you and I have as policy makers...
...is to make sure that a decent, sustainable living is there to be had for all of our citizens.
We cannot promise them that their jobs will stay exactly the same as they used to be there. That would be an illusion. But what we can promise is that there is fairness, there is equality, there is prosperity to
be had for all of us, and that it is our obligation to bring that to kitchen tables in Denmark, in Bulgaria, in Portugal, all across the Union.
Speaker B
I think you have some extremely important points. I would add to it that we also need to acknowledge that pertaining to the green transition, it's
impossible to really have one narrative that truly captures all of the challenges. Because let me just give you one example. You mentioned that people need to change jobs and sectors and do something different than
they did years back. That will be the case. And very often, the jobs that they will get in a new green environment, they will be better than the ones that they lost.
But in other sectors, it's actually a different type of a situation, because it's about maintaining the jobs that they have, where if you don't make the green transition, then you'll be
out-competed by the ones that do. So the car sector that you mentioned is a good example of that. Some people probably see it as a threat to the European car sector that these regulations
that we are now imposing will be set in place. I think that's a good example of that. And that from 2035, we will be all green. But I would argue it's the exact opposite.
If the European car sector is to survive competing with the car sector in many other parts of the world, it needs to be green as fast as possible.
So these are banal and easy examples, and there are others that are much more complicated. But it's just to remind ourselves that very often, if you are the actual person on the
factory floor, or you are the actual farmer growing your crops. And taking care of your animals, big speeches like the ones you and I are good at making,
maybe sometimes for them, it doesn't seem like we're talking about their everyday life. And we need to be better at that.
Speaker A
I agree. And there's one other thing that people I think shouldn't expect from us. And that is more an obligation for the European Commission than it is for national governments.
You know, we have a single market. And competition. And competition within that marketplace, of course, with certain regulations and boundaries,
in essence, is a good thing for citizens, because it provides them with better stuff at better prices. Having said that, it is important that we make sure our marketplace doesn't get flooded
by stuff that is made with government money elsewhere, and basically does unfair competition to our businesses. I do feel that.
That this is an area where we need to do more in also safeguarding our industries and our companies.
For example, if you look at what happened to the domain of solar panels, I'm not an expert on the industry. But the way I understand it is that we used to be pretty leading in this domain.
Then the marketplace got flooded by cheap stuff from abroad that was heavily subsidized. And you know what it did? It was...
It increased our dependency, and it deprived people of jobs. And I might be...
I'm sure the specificities are more complex and more nuanced than I now describe them.
But I do feel in the age we live in, where big, large power competition is back, geopolitics
is back, a great power rivalry is back, what the European Union does need to do is make
sure that there is a more than a fair fighting chance for its own industries or businesses.
Speaker B
Stig Brodersen Yeah, that is true. And this is probably a good bridge for us also to speak about the international climate negotiations. Because as you said in the introduction, the EU speaks with one voice.
So this means that in the COP process, for instance, it's not Denmark and France and Germany and Poland that turn up with their negotiators and negotiate on their own national interests.
We negotiate as one. And that means in practical terms that it is you, the commissioner, and the minister that carries the presidency of the European Union.
And that is something that rotates. So in Dubai, COP28, it was yourself and Teresa Rivera from Spain that were negotiating on behalf of the European Union.
And the way it then actually works in practice is that we meet regularly. Stig Brodersen Yeah. Stig Brodersen Sometimes, most often, a couple of times a day, all of the ministers.
And we have a mandate that's already been adopted in a council meeting before we even go to the COP. But that mandate can then be adjusted and even changed if the negotiations demanded
during the actual negotiations. Can you share with us how it actually went? Tell us about the negotiations in Dubai.
Speaker A
Stig Brodersen No, thank you. And by the way, it's an excellent description of indeed how we do it. It is partly complicated for those who are not part of the European Union.
It's even complicated for those who have been part of the European Union and have been part of these processes. But it is indeed, you know, there are 27 ministers of the various countries, but it is the rotating
presidents of the council plus the commissioner, in this case myself, who is then indeed leading the efforts from here. Stig Brodersen And Teresa Rivera did an excellent job.
Last time, and I'm sure the Belgium presidency is going to repeat that in Baku.
The thing you need to solve for as a commissioner is that indeed, you know, you have the mandate, but you also need to make sure that all 27 roughly think the same.
And, you know, ministers all have a position of their own, or have their own contacts or have their own specific challenges.
But maybe also obligations and, and things they thrive for. So what is important is to make sure that this group of 27 truly functions as a T. Having
said that, it is also a huge effort, because, you know, diplomacy is also a lot about, you
know, making the effort, talking to people, trying to make sure you understand but also being understood. And the...
If I were to single out what worked very well at the COP, it was, you know, there were many success, there were many parts to the success.
But I think if I were to mention a couple of things, it was clearly, one was that the
European Union worked so effectively together, two is that together with our friends from
America and many others, we managed to make sure that this very broad coalition of the
most ambitious, this super majority, actually raised its voice together, and overcame the
north-south divide that is sometimes there and asked for more ambition. And that is truly something where also, you know, we were able to leverage the presence of yourself.
You did, you're very modest, but you did an amazing job in that as well, as did quite a number of other European ministers. And I could never have done that.
that alone if I would have been the sole negotiator and so I guess whenever you you're heading a coalition your obligation is to make sure that you make the elements that could potentially be
a liability you make them into an opportunity and an asset and I think that is something we managed
Speaker B
to do to make it even more complicated just to make sure that if there's any listeners that think they more or less understand it now that that will will will get them out of that illusion
now because you mentioned you're kind enough to mention my role I I was asked by the presidency
so Dr Sultan al-Jabbar to also facilitate negotiations on behalf of the presidency so me and Barbara greasy from South Africa we facilitated negotiations on the global stock
take this this actually then means that my role changed during the day so in the mornings I would meet with you and our 26 colleagues
and basically decide what you were going to say to me and Barbara later that day so I I felt a little
bit confused myself almost sometimes but it it shows you that even though it sounds extremely
complex and almost impossible to make these negotiations work I think there's an atmosphere of wanting to find solutions and there's an understanding that
the same person can have wear different hats and have different roles in different rooms so I mean this isn't about me I was just using myself and as an as an example but also you as a commissioner
sometimes you you you fight very very forcefully for European interests other times you function more as a bridge builder to make sure that there's a compromise between countries that maybe don't
speak that well with each other and that is if if you don't have that atmosphere in the negotiations if there's not that trust and if there's not a network of negotiators from all over
the world that wants this to succeed and happen then it simply won't it's it's it's people basically
Speaker A
no no absolutely and and and you you're mentioning the name of our job he did it as the president he also did a you know he played a very important role in making sure that this whole thing came
about and John Kerry a great friend of us is was absolutely instrumental in in all the things he did but also making sure there you know there was a bridge building taking place with
uh the Chinese you know a whole range of other ministers from the small island states to our
friends in in in in Latin America Africa and Asia by the way also the the the Norwegian Minister many played a very important role in making sure that that you know we we managed to arrive at
success if anything the cop to me was also a a victory diplomacy and you need what you do as a negotiator you have to you you play various roles in in
various conversations and sometimes you do have to play hardball sometimes you need to facilitate other times you need to listen or you need to be a bridge builder that's what makes it so complex
and by the way that's also what makes it so rewarding um and and and and interesting particularly if
Speaker B
you then succeed yes I think I I hope we haven't lost too many listeners but I I think it probably it's it's helpful for many to to hear a little bit about this because what what happens in the media is
of course that because of the complexity and I don't envy the journalists that struggle with trying to communicate what's actually going on so I'm not criticizing any I'm just saying that
because of this complexity very often the way things are being depicted in the media is not that close to reality uh and maybe that's just the way it it it is and maybe we can't do anything
about it but what could we try it at least in this podcast to take people a little bit uh with us
just behind the scenes and thank you also so much for uh for sharing with us your your thoughts and visions for the European Union and the world as such thank you thank you again no thank you Dan
Speaker A
thank you for having me and let's continue the conversation I hope I didn't scare too many
Speaker B
listeners away thank you you've listened to Planet A a podcast on climate change and what to do about it