In this episode, Jacob laments the loss of human interaction thanks to the increase in automation in virtually every area of human life. Self checkouts in grocery stores, restaurants that force you to download their app to order food etc - things that admittedly save people's time but at what cost?
Jacob Sundberg is a Swedish author (http://jacobsundberg.se) and Johannes Koch is a German journalist. Together they hypothesize, entertain and enlighten you about a wide variety of topics ranging from the trivial to the existential - and usually spin them out into their illogical conclusions. At times philosophical, at times psychological but hardly ever researched or serious, they jostle with a new (Un)cultured Hypothesis every other week.
Credit to Aaron Day for the jingle!
Episode artwork designed by Freepik
Speaker 1:0:25To the uncultured hypothesis, a season to hooray, I'm had Jaco, pretty cool schpeal last time. I'm not going to be able to recreate that, but it goes something like, uh, you know, if you're, you know, could you imagine if you're at a party and you're standing around, you're really, really bored and you don't know what to do and you see somebody like to strike up a conversation with them. You might want to consider something like this and they could go up to them and say, you know, the other night I was listening to this really, really cool podcast features, probably the best podcast ever. Uh, and it's sort of like a society and culture and it features two talking heads and they sort of discuss and unwrapped really weird and crazy sort of ideas about philosophy and reality and the world. Um, yeah. And uh, something like that, right? Yoga. Isn't that how it went?
Speaker 2:1:15You're speeding. Yeah, that's what I said. That's exactly what, that's like the worst version of it ever. Uh, you're, you're feeling the last episode. Go actually
Speaker 1:1:24folks, listeners, dear listener, go back to the last episode and listened to your Spiel.
Speaker 2:1:30It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. You might want to share, uh, the uncultured hypothesis with your friends because it is in fact the best podcast in the world currently because we say so. Um, but also because it is anyway, you have to remember when I lost an episode, I managed to delete
Speaker 1:1:52still so caught up about that, you know, because what happens is we record our podcasts, uh, for those of you who've been following us, you'll know that we had the summit, uh, which took place in Berlin and we were actually sitting across from each other and everything was recorded in one place. And now we've gone back to our old recording style, which is Jaco is sitting in Sweden. I'm sitting in Berlin. And so what happens is we record on two separate tracks. I recorded my track, he recorded his track, we did this thing, and then you lost it.
Speaker 2:2:29I mistakenly deleted my, my bit and that was that. So a few hours of work, a lot of hours of work. You know what, I really didn't want to disappoint you. So I purchased a software. I spent hours and hours. I'm finding that darn file, um, and uh, to no avail. I couldn't find it. I think we should, we should charge a lot of money for these programs that you try to find, delete the, the files, because most files that you delete are there somewhere. The weird, you know, I think, I think we may have, we may have to share the whatsapps exchange. Oh man, I was angry. I was angry. I was trying to relate. I was trying to convey the, the, the feeling of silence over whatsapp. But you have to say you have to write something to convey that you were like, I'll forgive you, but right now I'm pretty pissed in the American sense. You weren't drunk. Yes, that's correct. In the English sense. Yeah. That was a bit. So, uh, but we shook it off, didn't we? Did We survived the first major?
Speaker 1:3:39Uh, what do you call it? A crisis
Speaker 2:3:43in that relationship relationship, which prompted me, I was, I was thinking about doing like an episode on the importance of forgiveness. Then I came to, it came about because I just, I think like in society I'm not, I'm not talking about you and me Janice because we're good friends and of course we forgive each other and I really appreciate your, your, uh, magnanimity in, in terms of this. But I did feel really bad and I do still feel really bad about the missed the last episode. Maybe we can make an episode about the last episode, but in society at large, like in the media and the like, there's so little forgiveness. Someone makes a mistake. Yeah. In, in, in the public sphere and they say something stupid or you know, whatever. And then we, we hound them throughout their lives and they're just, you know, they can't go back to public life. I mean, of course there are, there are exceptions. There are, yeah. There are exceptions and there are really horrible things that people do that perhaps shouldn't allow them back into certain types of roles. But like we are, we are not very good at forgiving people for making mistakes. Like, hey,
Speaker 1:4:58maybe maybe it takes some time for somebody like it might take and I think everybody's depends on the severity of the situation and it depends, I think, I think the sort of variables that weigh in on when, when you can forgive, like maybe it's something unforgivable, it's just, you know, because it's a principle you stand on. So, so say for example, like cheating for example, right? Men and women, like if, if, if your principal is it no cheating. Okay. And that is a break of trust. Complete break of trust in somebody cheats, then you stand on that principle. Then there is no forgiveness. Well, not in the immediate term, at least. Maybe not even in the longterm.
Speaker 2:5:40I mean, it really depends. I think it depends on what principles you stand on. All right. Obviously. Yeah, maybe. I mean that's, that's just my perspective on it. But then that's, that, that's, that's to be settled really between the, uh, the people involved and not in the public, I suppose such a thing maybe, but if you're public figure sort of A. Well, like Bill Clinton for instance. Interesting. Also met him, also met him since we had Roger Federer in the last episode. I might as well add that one as well. How, how many famous people have you met Janice? Probably about 7,000. Eight hundred and 55 people depending on your definition of famous. Yeah. Am I the 56 now? You're the 7,556. Yes, exactly. That's what you are. Okay. So I wasn't included in that figure. You were at the very last. The very last one. Okay.
Speaker 2:6:29Yeah, the additional. Um, so, um, but that was not what my hypothesis was going to be about. So, uh, it's going to be something different. Are you, uh, do you think we should launch into the small talk and get a small talk? Man, that was, that was pretty. That was knee deep already, but yes. Why don't you launch into it, but let, let, let me, let me just say this. Forgiveness is a good thing. Yeah. Anyway, so, um, so a completely different thing then. Now you know, I think, you know, that I've always admired a, an offer called cs Lewis. Yes, yes. And, and for those of you who don't know, he's the guy who wrote the children's books about Narnia with the whole, you know, going into the closet and coming out of the closet into a different country, but he was also a public intellectual in my opinion. He was, you had one of the greatest intellects in the, of the 20th century I'd say. And he was a professor of literature at Oxford and Cambridge and uh, he also wrote books on philosophy, theology, that sort of thing, right. So it was a, it was a big thinker. And in the 19 forties he wrote the book called the abolition of Man. It's a great, at the title of nearly one of the titles of one of our other podcasts, the abolition of the past.
Speaker 2:7:58But anyway, it sounded that way. It's a great book, but that one is really a great book. He argues for the, uh, a universality of certain values, values that are common to all civilizations throughout history, like courage and honesty and so on. So it's like a book against a moral relativism, a virtue. It is kind of a book of virtues. Uh, but I would highly recommend it. You should, you should give it a go. It's, it's, it's really a slim book and it's really, it's, it's slim. I mean, it's not, it doesn't have many pages or many words, but it's really relevant than the day, uh, in, in the times we're living in right now I'd say. But anyway, I'm going to call my hypothesis, the abolition of man in honor of the great cs Lewis. But, um, you know, I already had the apotheosis called the abolition, the past.
Speaker 2:8:57So this is going to be the abolition of men, but, uh, I do this, you know, I borrowed a book title and then I make a hypothesis with that same title without actually basing it on the book. You know, I did that with your entire secret of how you come up with your hypotheses. Yeah. Just take a title of a book. And then when I did that, uh, I had, I had a hypothesis gold, a critique of pure reason, but it had nothing to do with Emmanuel. I'm a book, right? I just borrowed the title, so that's what I'm going to do now. So it has nothing to do with his book. I'm just gonna point that out again, so that no one thinks that I'm trying to emulate whatever he said in that. Right. I'm still the, the title is irrelevant to what I'm going to say.
Speaker 2:9:39So I, I see it everywhere now. I don't know, like, I don't know about other countries, but in Swedish, uh, like grocery stores for a lot of unmanned cash registers. Do you have that enjoyment? Yeah. Yup, Yup. Self checkouts, self checkout. Yeah. So you blipped the Barcode on your groceries. He put it in your basket. Then you check out yourself without actually having to face a cashier. It's very convenient and it saves money for the supermarkets that don't have to hire as many people as they would have had to, but I, I stubbornly refused to use the blippar thing because, you know, in part because I'm such a reactionary, but most of all because I don't want to speed up the development development in that direction because. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You don't want to free up people's time to do something. Hang on, I'm getting, getting through that.
Speaker 2:10:38It's been a lot of talk, a lot of talk about time in this podcast, but I'm so, so jobs in the industry are vanishing because we get robots to do things 10 times faster. I used to work in the warehouse. They do know that. Yeah. You knew that? Um, no, no, I did not know that. And did you, were you using the flipper thingy to like Barcode everything? And I was used, I was using a blippar but I was also, I was spinning around in kickbox picking up things from the shelves and um, and then I took the, took the items back to the packing station and whatever. It's called, but these one second, one second. You said you were on a kick bike? Yeah. Do you know what I'm trying to imagine you want to kick back? This is very weird image that just popped into my mind. It's like, it's like a kickback tick back. It's like a kick bike, but with a uh, uh, where you can put stuff on like a, a thing you had a trolley at the back as well. A kick bike with a trolley. A kickback with the trolley in the front actually. Yeah. Cool. So you have a basket and you put things really it.
Speaker 2:11:45Yeah. But, but what I'm saying is that it was manual, manual labor, right. So you had someone to actually pick the goods up and then a package it and send it to whoever the customer was. Right. But these days I'm more and more warehouses, especially ecommerce companies. They use ultimated picking. Yeah. There's an Austrian company, for instance, a called that makes these huge machines and they're really complex, you know, really cool. Uh, they're as big as a house, you know, and they can have thousands of different products in that machine and uh, when you, the customer sit there in Berlin or in wherever you are and you order a pair of shoes and another pair of headphones to add to your great collection of headphones, the information is passed straight into their system and it's picked and packed automatically. So you reduced the number of employees significantly.
Speaker 2:12:46So you go from 100 employees to 20 employees or something like that. Depends, depends obviously on the, uh, on the, on the type of work it's, they're doing. Um, and there are restaurants here in Sweden where you have to download their app in order to order food. Yup. So if you, if you go to the bar, uh, they just refer you back to your smartphone and all these, uh, all these hamburger restaurants where you order your meal on a big screen, you pay with your car, the machine thing, and did you call out your number when you're ready or they just displayed digitally on the screen? Um, so, you know, no interaction whatsoever with other humans. Um, but here's what I do. I resist as long as I can. I don't go to those bloody restaurants that make you download their app. I think it's, I think it's ridiculous, you know, because they use, they use this antisocial strategy as a selling point as well.
Speaker 2:13:45They're boasting about it. We're the world's first APP based restaurant wealth. Whoa, whoa. We're going to get the, uh, we're going to get the explicit explicit chat box on this one now. Jeez man, I'm going to, I'm going to believe that all, it's just going to say you because you like to bleep her thing, right? Because that's the technical term. A barcode reader, we call it the sleepy thingy now from now on, but they're bragging about this were the first first to do this, but then just because you're first at something doesn't mean it's good. You know, we're the first restaurant that serves feess or were the first playground with land mines come and join in the fun. All the kids is so much. So much excitement. Excitement. Yeah. Anyway, so I see this everywhere. The automation of jobs, the disappearance of humans from the public space, it's like we're missing out on spontaneous interaction with people that we wouldn't normally interact with.
Speaker 2:14:51No. I mean we choose the people want to hang out with, right? We hang out with likeminded people all the time. Um, but I think it's a good thing to be forced to interact with people. Wait a minute, what is this socialist diatribe you should be forced by a government or anything like that, but know necessitated more like you're being necessitated to a cause. So it's not like I, I don't, I don't like people, you know, don't get me wrong. People are generally quite annoying, including myself, but it's not like we get less annoying by occupying our own solipsistic universal, you know? Yeah. But give it 50 years then we'll have robots doing everything for us that'll drive our cars. They'll wipe our assets so we can go on and do you know what, what are we going to do? What are we going to do when every job, every service, every purchase, everything has been automated.
Speaker 2:15:50What will be the meaning of life? If you have nothing to do in order to create walk, you can have someone are eating. So art. Yeah, but you do know that they have robots these days, that right texts, right? They write for instance, for texts here in some way, shape or. No? I'm not saying text S, s in the mobile text messaging. I'm saying journalistic pieces, like short texts about football games for instance. They have robots doing that. Um, okay. Yeah. Anyway, yes. Go ahead. Please. LemMe Lemme Lemme just a wrap up my hypothesis and then we'll try to discuss it. Um, so here it is. The automation of previously human activities does increase the efficiency of a efficiency, appreciation infrastructure, the efficiency of production. It raises our living standards, but it also decreases human interaction. It creates aimlessness and it risks alienating people from each other. That's what I think about it, you know? Um, of course it's nothing, it's not, it's not only bad, it's good and bad, but I think, yeah, I think we should.
Speaker 1:17:09All right. This is so much here. This the two things that I really from, from the big picture, just zooming out here. All right, so you have people who are like, okay, let's take the two extremes because this is always a good way to look at things in philosophy, right? Just take the two extremes and then you can figure out everything in the middle. So the extreme on the one hand is all right, the thesis. Antithesis. Synthesis. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So let's talk about your feces producing robots or whatever they were. I don't remember. Anyways, they predict because they do everything that humans can do and they do it for us. No, I mean if look either you embrace, fully embrace the technology and where it's going and you get 100 percent behind that. So you will embrace the fact that like Amazon, right is delivering to a, to the Himalayas for example, right? That was a big story not too long ago and how they're able to get packages up there. Uh, and
Speaker 2:18:08Oh, the mountain goats ordering good old grass. Exactly how. But then
Speaker 1:18:14you, you, you embrace that, right? But you'll always have like the opposite to that where the people are like rejecting it. This is what you're, you kind of touched on it, right? So you either completely rejected so you don't want any of that to happen. Right. And those are the two extremes and so you'll have a whole bunch of people who are just swooping ahead with all the technology and then you'll have others who will just be like, no, they're going to completely resist this and they're just going to stay completely out of it. And then you have all the shades of gray and yellow and green in between.
Speaker 2:18:47Yeah. I'm a bit of a reactionary. I, I, I'm very skeptical about new things, like a conservative in a, in a liberal mind. I Dunno. Biceps
Speaker 1:19:01still do the butt wiping itself.
Speaker 2:19:05Yeah, basically. Exactly. That's how it grew so big. But I.
Speaker 1:19:13no, I mean I can see where you're coming at this from, but like won't that create make. You're saying that you know, people are being taken out of situations where they have an opportunity to interact. I have a question for you. How many people when you go to the grocery store, do you interact with except for the cashier, register person at the. At the, at the teller?
Speaker 2:19:37Well I, I definitely see them. You see them, the tiller, but no, I interact with them. I'm like, just because you live in Nashville, which were, you know, basically everybody and they all by first name. No, but I. Well I know that financially you can justify hiring 10 people. We can have a robot doing the same thing at half the price, but we cannot calculate what the value is of people meeting in these small, you know, you have eye contact with someone that's, that's a really small thing that you might not count that as interacting, but I mean the value of actually ordering the hamburger from a person. I know it sounds trivial, but in the long run, don't you think it makes a difference if you go through your whole life and never get to talk to strangers? Never ordered, oh, I'll have a big Mac police. Of course you don't eat big macs because you're a vegetarian as we already established, but don't you think it makes a difference? All these small you get to meet people, you get to see people who are, uh, you know, who you didn't choose to meet. Just
Speaker 1:20:45divert to another way for us to me. Right? So you know, you thought like with things like the advent of a spotify and that, you know, the death of like cds, uh, you thought what actually happened in many instances is that like live events become more important. All of a sudden more people are going to more live events because they want to connect with a bands. Are The people that share the same interests as them? Like I think, why don't you have like an instagram, like an instagram bar a like you could, you know, I mean they already have those kinds of things, right? We're where it's like a speed dating or whatever using like instagram or whatever and stuff like that. I mean it's just, it's just going to develop a different ways because I think we want, we are social creatures. We want interaction with people. If we can't find it at the grocery store, like, ew, Yuck. Up. Then
Speaker 2:21:38I just, I just hang out at the grocery store. Really, that's what I do. This, you know, when you don't have any friends, you just go anywhere where you see people. It will be like, Hey, I'll pick up things for people. I'll just say, hey, you dropped. They dropped the receipt for, Hey, my name's Jacob. Would you do, do you, do you ever eat dinner? Should we need to? I can. So see it happening. And then you, then you put, pull along your kick bike as well. It'd be like when I come in and kick bike ride with me down the road, check out this kick back. Have you ever seen such a nice thing for us? Especially right where we're like
Speaker 1:22:24free range chickens, which is a euphemism for freelance writers. Um, it, you really do need to get out. Like I literally have to plan meetings in my diary to get out and I notice that just sitting in the subway is a incredibly good just for my wellbeing because I can see other faces. You're absolutely right about that and I don't. And there's an urge to do that. There's an urge to get out and socialize and meet other people after a certain amount of time. There's only so much a, you know, a isolation I think people can take.
Speaker 2:23:00Yeah. So they'll find something, they'll find other ways to, to socialize. Yeah, of course. Yeah. People will always find ways to socialize. That's true. But um, so, so you are conceding to the fact that when you're sitting on the tube, you're actually getting some sort of social input, although you're not talking to anyone, you're just looking at them and try to do. And I tried to imagine what sort of animal is this person and a really fun way to pass spirit animal. No, just like what they look at their face and you'd be like, is that a bird or maybe your giraffe or an elephant type person or see through checking out birds. Don't, not those kind of birds. Just random, like taller day. Well, I don't know what it's called. Is it called? Oh yeah. I don't know you the word suffer.
Speaker 1:23:46Suffer cystic or what was it called? The Salafist. Solipsistic. Yeah, that was good one.
Speaker 2:23:52That's the basic word. So, but I remember already like 15 years ago, before the time of the smartphone and, and almost before the time of the cell phone at all. I mean, like 20 years ago. I remember when, when, uh, when you called here in Sweden, you called to book train tickets from the Swedish railway company and you could no longer talk to a human. So the voice would say from where and where to do you wish to travel? Uh, and I would say something like, you know, from Stockholm to Guttenberg lease from Mumbai to Moscow. Is this correct? No, no. From Stockholm to Gothenburg. Stonehenge to Edinburg. And then, and already, you know, that was really frustrating because you couldn't talk to a human, you're like, oh please, this is say, okay, if you don't know what Stockholm and Gotham is, then how am I going to get to, you know, Nyquil or whatever.
Speaker 2:24:53So, um, but there are a lot of frustrations involved and you can no longer chip, by the way at airports, a lot of the time you can check in using a human. It's like you still, you just used the machine thing, right? And you have to check in on your iphone, uh, beforehand and so on. Of course, everything, everything gets more efficient and effective and you get, you save a lot of time. But what do you do with that time? What do you do? Do you feel like, do you feel generally that people say, oh, I have so much time now that we have automated our industries, know people say that they have less time than ever. Right? And what the, what do we fill our time with then? I don't know, like just we, we, we, we do have more time than, than ever before.
Speaker 2:25:40Day they used to work from 4:00 AM to 6:00 PM and you know, and then
Speaker 1:25:45that was that. Then you went to sleep. Yeah. I mean we talked a little bit about this in this lays at time. I think it's a matter of harnessing it. You said this actually it's a matter of, you know, our ability to harness time, uh, in a way that is conducive to what we want to do. Right? Uh, if you can't, uh, if you can't do that then it'll just, you know, it'll just take away a really, really quickly and in, do you haven't sort of done anything. I don't know. I think maybe there's room was more time, like if everything is automated and all the basics of life, like all the basics are provided for like food, shelter, clothing, um, healthcare and otherwise it's all provided for. And you gave people the opportunity to do what they really want to do. I think most people would just start creating in some shape or form or they apply themselves to their strengths or, uh, yeah. I don't know. Um, or people would
Speaker 2:26:44go back to. We're seeing that already, I mean, were people will go back to growing their own food and possibly, I mean because I love chopping wood for instance, it's not like a half to do it, but I just, just the getting the ax going.
Speaker 1:26:59Uh, but you also have to imagine that you're like hemingway or something like that when you're doing it, don't you? I do imagine that in many ways, but you called, you called this, this automation of our society, automation of everything, of goods and services, right? Industry is the automation is, it's an antisocial strategy. I think that's really interesting. Well, is it really antisocial and I think that cuts to the heart of your hypothesis, right? That it is sort of thing.
Speaker 2:27:24Well, I think the anti, the anti social strategy is a specifically I refer to that restaurant where you have to download their app in order to get food because I think that's, I think that's antisocial, is like we don't want to talk to you, you're the customer, but we don't want to talk to you. Just get the APP and order. I think that's sends a signal that, you know, you're not really interested in your customers, I think especially when it comes to services, you know, in restaurants and things like that. You don't, you don't want to. I don't want to, I want to talk to a nice way there or waitress and, and, you know, uh, what do you recommend, um, what drink is good with this food and, and, and also forcing people to download their APP. And a lot of people don't even have smartphones. I mean fewer and fewer people.
Speaker 1:28:13Well that's more coming from Sweden, which has the highest mobile phone penetration of any country in the world per capita. Right. But anyway, yeah, a second, second time. I'm sorry. You still not number one you want, you're not first, you're not number one. Arab Emirates, it's complete loss. No, but I think, you know, in the end, again, I'll bring this back to the spectrum that I was talking about before. You'll have people who are resistant to tractors and you know, people who will adopt it and that restaurant is obviously not targeted towards you. What you want is basically a Michelin star French restaurant. Okay. Were they, were they really take care of you and he has a real waiter there and he will advise you on what wine to have with your, with your, uh, your pool or whatever it is. You're your chicken and he will wipe my ass and not the robot when I go to. They're really clean toilets. Oh Geez. It's been a lot of toilet humor in this one. A or I don't know if it's humorous, but uh, uh, that's what you do.
Speaker 2:29:14No, I'm serious. Dead serious. It's one of the most important activities of the day. Wiping that good. Alas. So, um, but the thing is I'm not averse to technology. I mean, look at what we're doing here. I'm sitting here in Sweden and you were sitting in Berlin, then we communicate this way and we can record a podcast which can be listened to all over the world. And which it is. It's actually listened to on a, I think on all continents, isn't it? Like in Asia, Australia, North America. It's not that we have like millions and millions, but we have people on all continents and that's pretty amazing and we can thank technology for that, so I'm not averse to it, but there are certain aspects that we should look, we could address some of these aspects, like what are the downsides of certain technol technology, technological advances. I mean Sweden is at the forefront of it,
Speaker 1:30:03that adoption, so maybe you're just highly sensitized to it. I mean one of the first checkout expert become bringing this back to the beginning of your, your hypothesis. One of the first experiences of a self checkout counter was actually an Ikea.
Speaker 2:30:19Was it? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:30:21So I mean, you know, you're, you're either an early adopter, you're an early adopter, but also in early tractor.
Speaker 2:30:28Yeah, it makes sense. Do you think robots will ever write a literary fiction and, and these sorts of things. So we don't need authors anymore.
Speaker 1:30:38Uh, I don't know if they can, they'll be able to distill a machine learned like a emotion. I guess it will be machine learned emotion, a of some sort. I just coined that. Maybe I just coined that here. Machine learned. Yeah. And there'll be able to distill that in writing, but they won't be able to distill human emotion because they're not human.
Speaker 2:31:04Or is there even a direct. Is there a difference? If they write books that Supersedes Dostoyevsky and maybe they will be reviewed. The books will be reviewed by other robots as well. So you'll read in the newspaper. Oh, the reviews have come for this last book from, from Computer Ab 22. Uh, it's really good. That's a, that is a dystopian
Speaker 1:31:33and dystopian. Now speaking of we, we, we like our dystopian nightmares and I think you did. The restaurant that you described is somewhat of a dystopian nightmare. It is.
Speaker 2:31:44Well, but people don't. I, I think I'm the only one because everyone loves that restaurant. It's called Pincho. Yeah.
Speaker 1:31:52Pincher. I'll write. I'll write to them and ask them if they want to be an advertiser on our show. Now since we talked
Speaker 2:31:57so highly. Oh No, I don't want to deride any serious business owner. I think, you know, if that's their thing, you know, go ahead. And they obviously have really satisfied customers and all that. So I don't wanna I don't want to pick on anyone, but for me that is really don't know.
Speaker 1:32:18Dear Listener, if you would have experienced similar restaurant, do the one that was talking about, please do write into us and let us know. Love to hear your, your opinion on that.
Speaker 2:32:29All right, please do so. Don't forget to very much. I'll should I wrap up. My says rapid up the automation of previously human activities does increase the efficiency of production. It raises our living standards, but it also decreases human interaction. A, creates aimlessness and risks alienating people from each other. So thanks a lot for listening and please share and review and rewrite and so on. And don't forget that dinner party you're going to tonight and just strike up a conversation with someone and say, Hey, I listened to this podcast. Have you heard it? Uh, and if they say yes, whew, that's really strange because statistics would have otherwise I have to say, um, but if they don't know about it, tell them about it and say, what a great show this is. Okay, I'm Janice. Thank you for having me on the show. Thank you for having me. Alright man. Okay. Take care.