Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to guest John Jackson who is an author and Director of Correctional Partnerships for Hustle 2.0.
John gives context to being a convicted criminal and serving 18 years in prison. He talks about his current hustle which allows him to passionately advocate for rehabilitation and healing people currently in prison. He helps us to better understand and humanize the journey of the formerly incarcerated as John speaks to us today as a Voice of a Returning Hustler.
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Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to guest John Jackson who is an author and Director of Correctional Partnerships for Hustle 2.0.
John gives context to being a convicted criminal and serving 18 years in prison. He talks about his current hustle which allows him to passionately advocate for rehabilitation and healing people currently in prison. He helps us to better understand and humanize the journey of the formerly incarcerated as John speaks to us today as a Voice of a Returning Hustler.
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Connect with Us
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm your host Rocki. Howard, and the purpose of this podcast to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time. I want our listeners to understand the significance and the impact that racism, bias and an equity have on real people. I want our guests to have the opportunity to share the challenges that we the underrepresented face in the corporate world, the media's eye and the overall world that we live in, through sharing, listening, understanding, and committing to take small actions towards change. Together, we can impact the diversity narrative, one story, one conversation at a time. And by changing the narrative, we can change the world
John Jackson:The pivot that I made, where they were baby steps. They weren't huge, gigantic steps to just even walk just even break through the initial door of overcoming the raschi. But criminal past is a mountain in itself to overcome. It's like a drive I guess. It's just like a business anything you come in and you want to earn your keys you want to excel you want to move up and the corporate ladder. It's it's no different in games.
Rocki Howard:Voices of Diversity guest John Jackson is an author, and Director of Correctional Partnerships for Hustle 2.0. John brings to life his story of being a convicted criminal and serving 18 years in prison. He talks about his current hustle, which allows him to passionately advocate for the rehabilitation and healing of people in prison. He helps us to better understand and humanize the journey of the formerly incarcerated, as john speaks to us today as the voice of a returning hustler. Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon, wherever you are in the world, and welcome to the voices of diversity podcast. I'm your host Rocki Howard, and I identify a she/her/black/Christian/GenX/wife/mom because I appreciate all dimensions of diversity. And I am so so so excited today to have my Jobs for Humanity colleague and my friend John Jackson joining us. Hey, john, can you introduce yourself to everyone and tell them how you identify?
John Jackson:Yes. My name is john Jackson. And I identify in this world as a person who has made bad decisions, terrible mistakes and is working to redeem and make a difference in the world. Yeah,
Rocki Howard:john, I am so looking forward to this moment where you can tell the world your story. I know a bit of your story. It is a it is an incredible story of retention. So I'm going to turn it over to you. Can you tell us your story?
John Jackson:Yes, my story. Might the I guess boiled down is that I served 18 years in prison. And I was a member of one of the largest prison gangs in the United States. But I wasn't born that way. My journey to joining a gang and going to prison started when I was on my way to school one morning, and I discovered my mom's murder scene. And the night before I my mom had kissed me can tuck me into bed and went to work or graveyard shift at Denny's. After my mom was killed, I went to live in Miami and my aunt was a drug dealer. And one night I was with her. She was pulled over. She had drugs in the car. And when the cop was walking up, she leaned over and told me like, john, you know, if the cops find these drugs, I'm going to go to prison. Tell me yours. So I did. I told Nevermind. 17 I was charged with possession, transportation and sales of a controlled substance. And my aunt braised me she loved me for it. And I wanted I wanted more of it. I wanted more of that brace, the person who was supposed to protect me and love me. Like she was praising me for doing something that I perceived as good. And I want like I said I wanted more. After that. It was before that same year I committed for aggravated robberies, seven total felonies and 17. I was headed to a maximum security prison in California. When I got there, I feel going back a little further. I I've always had I'm a natural born hustler. It's just who I am. If you want to ask me how I identify, that's how I
Rocki Howard:make sure that people know you identify as a hustler, right? A pause there, right? Because I think I want people to hear your journey, like people don't wake up and go, I'm going to be a mastermind criminal. There is usually something that sits there and I can't imagine the pain of walking up on my mother's murder scene, and all of the other consequences that come behind that. And then you need a family. You need somebody to support you, you need a roof over your head, you need you need love, and your way of giving love in your family was to create commit crime.
John Jackson:Well, on top of that, when I lost my mom, I was 11 years old when I discovered my mom's murder scene so I'm automatically feel I feel abandoned. I don't have I have no control and no power. somebody killed my mom, I don't have any power. So when my aunt, um, see, I need acceptance my entire life I need I want I want family. I think everybody does. Nobody wants to be an outcast. So at 17 when I go to prison, I join a gang. Guess what I get, I get all of those. I get acceptance, I could family. And on top of that, I get power and control. From the skills that I have my leadership skills, my bit my smart, my street smarts, everything that I have. those skills are very valuable in gang life. And I made the most of them my gang they were I was valuable to my gang. They needed me.
Rocki Howard:Wow. Tell me tell me. And I'm gonna be a little bit naive here, right? I know, like, I grew up in the streets, I grew up in the hood. You know, I dated a banger I, you know, like, I understand what that life is on the street. What is it like in prison? Like, how do you have a choice not to be in a prison gang? How do you get recruited? Is it the same way it works on the street, like help us understand how you get in that situation? And then to your point, then you develop leadership skills and grow them, right.
John Jackson:When I in different state, and it varies by state. But in California, we have some of the most highly organized gangs that there are in the country. So when I got to jail, it's segregated by race. You have the southerners and Northerners, the blacks, the whites, and it's, it's very, very, it's extremely racist. Like, I learned really quickly that I don't sit at the same table as a black. I don't sit at the same table as a white person or an Asian or if you're not my, if you are not I was a southerner. I'm a from a from a Mexican gang. if you're not Mexican, you're not a southerner. You're my enemy. And that's how it's drawn. That's how the lines are drawn in prison. And recruitment. You do have a choice. It's tricky. You do and you don't you do and you don't. Yeah, I made the choice to join a gang. They don't nobody comes up to you in prison is like, hey, you're one of us now. Like, the way you see on lockup or any of that. That's not. That's not the way I experienced it. It's not the way I ever saw it either. Most of the people who come to prison, they're already gang members. The average age for somebody who joins a gang is 12 years old. Wow. So when they get to prison, this is this was their birth, right? This was what they were. For many of them this is what they were born into their parents were gang members, their father, their grandfather, so when they get to prison, and this is what they signed up for. They already know it and they're already part of the gang.
Rocki Howard:Wow. So when you went into prison, did you continue? Was this an extension of like what you had been doing out on the streets when you're in the out or was this a whole new gang you joined?
John Jackson:This was a whole new this was a whole new gang for me. I wasn't I wasn't a gang member on the streets. I was just a dorky little kid. At the same time, I was also a dangerous kid I had I chose to have guns I chose to rob people. So I wasn't I was a dorky little kid but I was a dangerous dorky little kid and when I got to prison, I wasn't automatically in I had to earn my way in and I Oh, and there I am again seeking that acceptance so it led me to feeling pressure that wasn't really there if I need to be more violent, I need to be more than everybody else because they already got it. I'm not being accepted yet because I'm this guy. I'm the outsider right now. So I need to earn my way in the gang I need to earn my keep. Most people that come in they already they're already part of the game. So I had to earn my I had to earn my keep early on and I felt that need to it's like a drive I guess it's just like a business anything you come in, you want to earn your keep you want to excel, you want to move up and the corporate ladder. It's no different in gangs gangs. The gang leaders are CEOs and executives and everybody else is working to try to get there.
Rocki Howard:Wow, wow. So I know there was a point in time where you made some choice. And I love the fact that during this whole conversation, you've said, I chose your I chose, right? I know there was a point in time in your story, where you chose to start to go in a different route, right? Was it about three years before parole?
John Jackson:turns around? It was in 2016 is right before my 33rd birthday guys, a few years before I went home, that I started to change my life that I made a choice. I didn't want to get I did not want to die. I don't want to die in a box. I didn't want to die in a freakin elevator, basically, because a cell is about the size of an elevator. I didn't want to die. And if we can get in a box.
Rocki Howard:And so what was that choice? Like? What What did you choose? What was the thought process? And what was the pivot that you made?
John Jackson:Well, a few years before I made the decision, I had committed violence in prison, and I was sentenced to an additional four years. So I was actually supposed to go home on my birthday on my 33rd birthday. And that the day before I thought was I said in my cell, and I was like, this is I I set on myself. And that was the first time that I, since I've been arrested that I really wanted to go home. I like I felt I was sad. I sat there. I don't remember if I cried, but I knew that I was sad. Like, I don't want to die in here. I don't want to die a gang member. And nobody's gonna remember me. And I did make the decision that day that I don't want to die in here. So the changes that I made that pivot that I made, were they were baby steps. They weren't huge, gigantic steps. I did not go outside. I didn't go to the yard and be like, Alright, I know. I would I wouldn't be here today. If I did that. It was it? Would they were baby steps it was today, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to pass drugs today. I'm not going to I'm not going to involve myself in a criminal conversation today. And just building on that every single day until enough people saw that like, john, where's john at? He's been Mia for a couple of months. And pretty soon they don't even start asking Where's john at? They don't even realize that I'm gone. They don't realize that I'm not involving myself. And I'm not the usual suspects anymore.
Rocki Howard:Yeah, I remember reading a party your story to you. And you said you even made choices about the types of conversations you would participate in?
John Jackson:Yeah, it was whenever a criminal conversation was going to come up if there was gang politics going on. I hear that. All right, I gotta go. I'm going to step out of that conversation. I don't have an opinion on that anymore. Because that's not the direction I'm going. But if you want to have a conversation about bringing a new a new rehabilitative program to the yard, if you want to have a conversation about how we can get a fundraiser going on the yard, I'm in I'm in if you want to talk about how you can start how I did it and how you can do it step by step. Yeah, let's have that conversation. If you want to talk about the home, you have your gossiping about the latest drama. I'm good. I don't have time for that. Because when I do that, then I'm saying back in. Yeah, count me in.
Rocki Howard:What do you think, was the strength that you held on to because so much of what you had been doing had not been just about power and privilege, but it had been about love and acceptance. And so I'm imagining as you started to step away, there was less love and acceptance around you. How did you counterbalance that? Like, how did you stay strong and focused?
John Jackson:There were there were I did, I was threatened, I was called weak. And all of a sudden, like, you want to go into school on the streets. You weren't doing all this stuff on the streets all the sudden you want to like, basically like you're scared. You know, all of a sudden, you're scared. You want to go home? Like, yeah, I want to go home. And there are people who threatened me and dog crap, but there were also people who supported it. And that's what, and it was many of the gang leaders actually, it wasn't like it. They were the ones who saw that. And were like, Well, why don't you go home? We don't want to see you in here. They have life in many of those guys have life in prison, they will never go home. And the biggest thing that plays in my mind is when I asked one of them like why do you want to see me go home? He's like, you're a square. You don't belong in here. So I have
Rocki Howard:that dorky kid, right?
John Jackson:Yeah. He's like, this isn't you were meant for more than dying in a prison cell and I want to see you go home and succeed. I can't, I can't I want to live. I want to be able to live through you. So get the hell out of here.
Rocki Howard:Go do what you gotta do. Yeah, you know, you talked a little bit about being in the gang and the organization of the gang is a lot like being in a corporation. I'm wondering if you can tell us maybe some of the experiences and lessons that you learned during your time. While you were incarcerated that you think are good things that you brought with you that are transferable skills, so to speak, that you use out in the world today.
John Jackson:But management leadership means being a good leader being an inclusive leader people, I think a lot of people have the the assumption that, you know, the game leader just calls the shots, and it's, you know, my word goes, it can be like that at times. But it also, when I was I was at a, I was at Pelican Bay, and this is like gang headquarters in California. And the guy, the guys there, it was never Hey, my, my word is law. It was Hey, like, what's really going on here, let's get to the let's get to the root of the problem when we would have racial issues. Because we're so sacred, everything is so segregated in there. And everything is viewed as disrespect. petty things are viewed as disrespect. You know, a black came across the bass line that he came and sat at my table, or he used a phone out of order. Oh, crap, we have a potential racial riot. Right. So instead of just I would do I would see these leaders instead of just you know, what, kill them all. It's like, No, I know that one decision can lead to violence. So let's bring everybody in. And let's discuss what really happened and how can we get to a peaceful solution on this, and that was so far away from what I experienced when I was at other prisons of want to be leaders who thought every answer was violence, or every answer needed to be aggression. I learned that I can, okay, I can, I can resolve problems. And I don't have to appear weak, that they sitting down at the table with other people doesn't put me at a disadvantage. It doesn't put me in a position of weakness, it actually puts me in a position of power. Because I'm willing to listen to what this person has to say. I don't know if that was a long tangent about Just no. bringing people to the table.
Rocki Howard:I think that's perfect. And honestly, I wish every leader had that skill. And I wish every leader understood that taking the time to bring people to the table doesn't put you at a position of weakness. It puts you in a position of power. I absolutely love that. I'm excited for you to tell everybody a little bit about hustle. 2.0 so they're gonna want to know what happened. So you obviously stayed the course you got paroled. I know you're with hustle. 2.0 Now, did you go to hustle? 2.0 right after you got out or was there transition? Were there other jobs involved? Before you get to hustle? 2.0 No, I've
John Jackson:been working in hustle 2.0 while I was working for us, oh 2.0 while I was still at Pelican Bay, I started this job before I was released hustle 2.0 was born while I was incarcerated. We named it while we were there. The founder one of the co founders, Catherine Hoke, she she moved to Pelican Bay and we were writing we have a 15 person writing team that was formed at Pelican Bay and we started writing the curriculum from from inside. And when I paroled, I was hired Charles Hoke and Katherine hook hired me on day one, to be a writer. And then I was promoted to director of correctional partnerships, for now I get to reach out to other correctional industries and hopefully, get them to buy in on our solution, our gang solution and our criminal and provide rehabilitative programming to people who are incarcerated.
Rocki Howard:Wow, what an incredible story. So how did how did the concept of hustle 2.0 come together?
John Jackson:The concept came about the Katherine hook came up there and asked us well, if you die today, why would your life matter? And none of us had good answers. And we she asked us what do you want to be known for more than just your rap sheets? And your as a gang leader? Is that what you want to be known for? And we did we want to be known for more than just the worst things we've ever I think nobody wants to be known for just the worst things we've ever done. And thankfully, most people don't have a piece of paper that shows all the worst things you've ever done. Most of that stuff gets to stay to yourself and you don't have to be judged for it.
Rocki Howard:Oh, and that the truth. Glad I do not have to be judged for the worst things I've done. Seriously.
John Jackson:Yeah, that's for people return for returning citizens. That's jumping ahead a little bit. That's, that's what it is, is I have there's documentation of my bad my poor choices. Imagine if you had to walk around with a shirt every day with a list of all the terrible decisions you ever made. And before you even before anything else, just Hey, read this real quick. And then let's have our conversation. here's the here's all the bad decisions I've ever made in my life. And then let's have a conversation about what chances you're going to offer me.
Rocki Howard:Wow. So talk to us. I mean, you are probably honestly one in a million to have started your job before you left prison and then to be able to stay in it. And to be able to progress up and to be able to help others. But because you sit in this world, I want you to help educate us. You just talked a little bit about the biases that returning citizens face, right? Like I literally have a rap sheet a piece of paper that follows me around. What what other things do you think are the worst biases and the the hardest challenges that returning citizens face?
John Jackson:Is that I am my worst decision? I am that that means that that's the definition of the person I am I yeah, I commit Yes, I did make the choice to commit aggravated robberies. It's that when somebody sees my rap sheet that that's what you are. You are a violent, dangerous person who will and you will always be that you have no hope of changing.
Rocki Howard:Despite the fact that we do say that we believe in a system and we believe in reform. And we believe that when someone has served their time, that they've done what we've asked them to do, and we welcome them that but we don't really welcome people back Dewey.
John Jackson:No, it's it's not it's not that. It's not hell. Yeah, the system work. Look, this guy went to prison for 18 years. And the system worked. Finally, we got one. No, it's you got out and you're still what you did, you're still the choice you made as a 17 year old kid. As 17 years old, you made this choice and employers or random people think they have the power to say I'm going to continue to punish you for what you did. 17 years ago, you have no legal authority to do that. But something something in your brain tells you I you have the right to punish me for something I did 17 years ago.
Rocki Howard:Wow. Wow. Talk to us a little bit about the greatest reward of working with hustle to point out
John Jackson:the greatest reward is seeing the people that we serve, choosing, choosing freedom, choosing that this isn't the life they want anymore. They don't want they don't want to die in prison. They don't want to die incarcerated. And they also want to be they want to be free. But more than being free, they want to use their freedom to make a difference in the world. They so over a lot of people have freedom but how many people do something with it? How many people choose to go serve others in a very selfless way with no praise, no recognition. Just going out and passing out we had one of our guys who was released. After 16 years he was found suitable he was released and he chose to spend like some of his initial money to go It seems like something so small, but he bought flowers roses and was like I just want to see people to smile. I've been in prison all this time and people don't smile that much in there. And he went to downtown LA it was just passing out flowers to random people right and saying that they would smile getting smiles from people make this making this to make somebody's day and like and that made me cry last night. Wow. He's just one of
Rocki Howard:the things we take for granted. Right like just seeing somebody smile. Just seeing someone smile. Tell me this. Was there a person for you that served as an ally or mentor and supported you to get to this point?
John Jackson:Katherine oak, not just she is one of the main ones is she. She is like, bought her into easy's her entire life to make a difference for the people who are incarcerated. But then the people that she recruits voice Milady I met him while I was incarcerated at Pelican big. I met him in 2018 when I graduated from an entrepreneurship program and he celebrated the crap out of me for graduating and here's this like this like lovable guy who just has this freakin energy. It's just he comes into a maximum security prison there are guns everywhere. And like he comes running in to this maximum security prison like a freaking ball of energy hugs you kisses you on the head. Yeah. And like quite a bow. like Hey, calm down, dude. But you can't help for the interview to be infectious and yet his energy he's he's one of them that like I when I was in prison, like I want to go home and I want to see him one day. I want to spend time with him. I want Yeah, he Roybal out. He is one of them. And I love that he is now he's used this to create jobs for humanity. And he's used his experience in prison. He said that this is experience at Pelican Bay State Prison guided a lot of what he's doing right now. The way that he uses his skills and his heart to make a difference in the world is really inspiring and his inspiration is great, but if you don't do anything with it, so what inspires me to work harder? The action that I take from from when I feel inspired by watching his energy and seeing what he does, makes me work harder makes me pour a little bit more compassion into a course that I write.
Rocki Howard:It's that is the power of an ally and a mentor. That is what you can do for someone else. While we're talking about allies and mentors, I'd like to ask you this question. Actually, I want to ask you to. So I'm going to go back to the first one. What do you say to people who genuinely are scared, john, right? Like, there are people who genuinely think, well, if he did this 17 years ago, certainly, to your point, the point that you made earlier, that is who he is, and they, they operate in that place of fear. What would you say to people to help them move past the fear?
John Jackson:I would say your fears are valid. Your fears are valid, you have a past experience, or something in your life that tells you that that's true. And that's okay. It's okay to be afraid, I'm afraid every day that for no reason, a cop is going to come arrest me because something happened and my fear, you can tell me that my fear is the right nobody's gonna do that. But my fear is valid, I have that fear. I was playing tennis today. And somebody was smoking weed. weed is legal in California, I got to go to and I got a big old puff of it. And guess what my fear is? My fear is that when my probation, my parole officer comes to test me, I'm going to test 30, they're going to take me back to prison, I don't smoke weed. I don't drink but I am scared as hell right now that next time I get drug tested, I'm going to drink, I'm going to test 30 for marijuana, and I'm going to go back to prison. So your fear that somebody is going to hurt you is valid, somebody might hurt you. But the likelihood that it's somebody who has been to prison and come and and came out and served their time, that's your fear is more in the justice system that failed them not in that person.
Unknown:Wow, I love that you
John Jackson:don't hate me don't hate don't hate that person hate the justice system or the rehabilitation system that failed that person?
Rocki Howard:Wow. I don't even know what to say to that. Because you're right, it is not the person that failed. It's the system that we've created, that's failed. Tell me this. If you could tell people who genuinely want to be great allies to returning citizens, if you could just give them one thing that they could do to support returning citizens? What would it be?
John Jackson:Your second chance. I don't know what that second chance is, or what it looks like. But just give them a second chance, whether it's in a conversation. Whether it's the time of day, just hearing them out. Who knows, I don't know, I don't know what the second chance what their second chance looks like to you when you're offering it. But just offer the second chance just just leave it there as an option. Don't just can't don't don't just close the door.
Rocki Howard:I love that. So, your experience has certainly been different. But I know that you support people in this situation, you have friends that are in this situation I can imagine. So you know, john, and I built this platform to give a voice to people who are underrepresented. This is your time. And what I'd really like for you to help us understand is what is it like to walk through the world of work, or even to try to break into the world of work as a returning citizen,
John Jackson:to just even walk to Steve and break through the initial door of overcoming the rap sheet of my criminal of a criminal past is a mountain in itself to overcome. After that, people are scared I fear people are scared of you. People are and people are either scared or they there's like this voyeuristic. It's like this voyeuristic. Ooh, prisoner gang member. I want to hear this story not for not for a purpose that could serve any good. But because it's like a movie or it's like it's like a movie or it's like lagopus he's documented you see on TV, I can get one of those stories. And that prison is traumatic. Everybody goes through trauma. And when if you when you're drawn back into that, it It sucks. It hurts. It is traumatic and it like lessons I feel like it lessons me it lessons me as a person. That if you just look at me as my story, so guys come out and they're looked at as just their story of gang banging and violence and crime and prison and There's so much more than that. If you could look past that, if you could look past that and see back to what you said about the transferable skills, these guys this this gang member, that's that's that guy, or that person. The loyalty? Like do you want it? You want a loyal you want a loyal employee? I bet those are hard to find. Well guess what, like being in a gang all your life and not not turning over on your homeboys and sticking it out. That's, that's, that's a pretty great transferable skill that you have, that they can offer your company eight cents an hour or working for free in prison. minimum wage, that's pretty freakin good. I'm not saying like, under pay on your under your pay. I'm saying like, when I came out, I'm like, Whoa, you're gonna pay me What? You're gonna pay me real money. I'm used to getting paid eight cents an hour and a prison if I'm getting paid at all. And I'm used to getting treated like crap. I'm used to be eight and make it over here and pick this up. And now you're going to treat me like a human being and pay me Well, I'm going to give you my loyalty I want I love this job. And I'm going to give you I'm going to give you everything I got. You want leadership skills you want. You want somebody that could work under pressure. Well, guess what, like riots it that's where your lockup are all stories come in, and riots and shootings and stabbings and stuff. Like I see it every day. Hey, you know, the fact that a truck showed up late today, and I need to unload it really quickly. isn't really isn't that stressful?
Unknown:Yeah.
Rocki Howard:It puts things into perspective. Tell me this, how can we support hustle,
John Jackson:go to our website, and there are people on there who have who don't have the means to sponsor to pay for the book themselves or their DLC, their department of corrections won't buy it. And we don't believe that that should be a barrier to anybody receiving rehabilitation. So you can go to our website and go to the give hustler 2.0. And there are applicants who have filled out applications on why they want to be a certified hustler. And they tell you they they're going to lay it out for you on why they think that you should give $50 of your hard earned money to offer them a second chance. And if you choose if you find somebody if you find an application that speaks to you sponsor him. If you know a jail system, if you know somebody who's incarcerated, if you have a brother or sister who's incarcerated a loved one, you can download the application form and send it to them, or you could purchase it for them directly.
Rocki Howard:I love that. I love that. I so appreciate you. I appreciate everything that you have taught us today. I appreciate the ownership that you've taken on the choices you've made. And I really appreciate your commitment to the hustle. Right. And I appreciate you being my friend and my colleagues. Thank you so much for being here.
John Jackson:Rocki Thank you very much for having me and sharing your platform.
Rocki Howard:Thank you for listening to today's episode. The mission of this podcast is to give a voice to diversity. I believe that the interactions between all voices, minority and majority can change the narrative of how the world communicates. And by changing that narrative, we can change the world. Join our mission to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time by sharing our episodes, especially with those who are privileged and in positions of power. Help the Voices of Diversity podcast, be a catalyst for courageous conversations, and most importantly, for change. I'm your host Rocki Howard