Best selling author Patrick Lencioni takes the floor to discuss his latest book, “The Ideal Team Player,” and why you can’t fake humility in the workplace. Find out what sparked Pat’s passion in forming his management consulting firm, The Table Group, and relish this opportunity to pick Lencioni’s brain about his unique writing routine, favorite authors, and a workplace environment that starts and ends with genuine concern about the people who work there.
Best selling author Patrick Lencioni takes the floor to discuss his latest book, “The Ideal Team Player,” and why you can’t fake humility in the workplace. Find out what sparked Pat’s passion in forming his management consulting firm, The Table Group, and relish this opportunity to pick Lencioni’s brain about his unique writing routine, favorite authors, and a workplace environment that starts and ends with genuine concern about the people who work there.
The welcome to this edition of a survivor's journey with rocky destefano. Rocky has been a server since his early days of working behind the counter, had a chick filet to having a very successful restaurant of his own server himself. He loves to talk about leading yourself. A few, many, and leading an organization. Today rocky's guest is Patrick Lencioni. Patrick is the founder of the table. Any spot, third 11 books which have sold over 5 million copies and been translated into over 30 languages. Patrick, thank you so much. I really do appreciate you coming on. As, as I've already shared,
Speaker 2:you've had a really big impact on my leadership story. And so I wanted to start, if I could just ask you about your story and how you got started.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, um, I, I think that most important thing to think about it for me is that I grew up in a family where my dad didn't go to college, but he worked really hard and I was very interested in his work life and he was frustrated by management at his company and I didn't know what that meant when I was a kid and my dad was really good at what he did. He was a salesman, God rest his soul and, and I was bummed for him and so as I got older and got my own jobs and went to college and worked hard and got my first job after that, I was pretty fascinated by what management was, how that had impacted people's lives. And so in my first couple of jobs I found that most management wasn't very good and I said, you know, I think I want to work on that my life. Wow. And so I started, I got into, uh, I, I worked my way into a job in organizational development and spent about seven years doing that. Then one day I thought, you know, I love working with these people I work with, I got some job offers for some, some, some pretty high profile ceos, but I decided I really wanted to work with good people and start my own consulting firm. So we launched that consulting firm 20 little, little over 20 years ago and we thought we're just going to consult a small companies in the bay area for the rest of our lives and thank God for that. We'll be able to pay our mortgage and enjoy our work. And then I wrote a book and people asked me to give a talk on it and next thing you know, I was very blessed. I be thankful to God because I've gotten to do more and more of what I love to do and more people have listened to what I kind of believe. And so the table group is now, you know, we've got 50 consultants around the world and, and uh, our headquarters here in California and we get to do writing and speaking and consulting and put out information and do wonderful things like this podcasts. So that's kind of my story in a nutshell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember reading bits about that and I remember being impressed about, um, you had watched your father and you understood some of the struggle he was going through. And then when you first came into your own career, you were in the right places you thought, but, but you notice the leadership wasn't quite, um, it really wasn't quite up to what you thought it could be. How did you get started from, from the point of wanting to consult? How did you get started writing about leadership and about managing styles and so forth?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, it's interesting. For, I was working at a company and the software industry. I'd worked with this one CEO for for awhile and it was a really good leader. I thought no, another guy took over for him and I noticed right away that this new guy had a problem and he and his issue was that he was more interested in his status and he wasn't producing results. He was really, it was all about his ego and if he did well on TV and, and even if the company's results were down, he didn't really get bothered by that. It was all athlete didn't look good on tv or people were blaming him. So I thought, well, there's the problem with leaders, status oriented, they're not enough about results. But then I said, okay, but this other guy didn't care about status, but he had a problem. Oh, he didn't. He didn't like to hold people accountable.
Speaker 2:And then,
Speaker 3:and I said, well, what about this? Why wouldn't somebody to hold people accountable? And I came up with this theory, these five points. Yeah. That made these sequence of points and I, and I thought that was the five.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Temptations that leaders have. And um, so I started telling people about it and people started repeating it back to me over time. And a year later some guy came to me and wrote the five temptations on my whiteboard and I said, hey, those are. I came up with that a year ago. He goes, oh, I know you told me. I use it all the time now and finally somebody said, you need to write a book about this theory, and I thought, Oh man, I don't know if I have time for that. And they say, well, somebody else is going to write a book about that. And so I decided, okay, maybe I do need to do that.
Speaker 2:That's right, yes. So
Speaker 3:I sat down rocky to write it and I, uh, I decided that I really didn't want it to be a long, boring book because I purchased too many of those in my life. Sure. Okay. So I wrote a, I decided I wouldn't tap into my, my passion for writing fiction screenplays that I had in my life and I wrote a fiction story about it. We never thought it would. We didn't know it would get published. We were going to take it to Kinko's and make copies of it to give to our clients that are new consulting firm. And a publisher saw they liked it, they printed it
Speaker 2:and it went from there. I've always been intrigued about your writing style and that kind of fills in some gaps. I know that you write what I would call like a leadership fable and what I've always enjoyed about that is it's a very interesting book on its own and anybody at any level, whether they are, you know, 16 year old cashier or a ceo can read and relate to it, but then you at the very and dig deep into the, the piece is you're trying to get people to understand. So I've always appreciated that. Um, it's really helped me and also my team.
Speaker 3:Okay. Okay. I'm glad to hear it in your store. Probably 10 years ago. And I remember that well and I've seen it from time to time since then. And it's, I love chick fil a and I love the way you people manage really happy for your success and to see people who live these theories even before they read about them because I think they're very natural. So I'm glad to know that it's helped you.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm, I'm, I'm appreciative of your compliments, but to me it's always, you know, I, I think I was living some of the values that I've read in your book out, but I think what year books specifically, there was one that I was really moved by was the five dysfunctions of a team where yeah, I was living some of these out, but I wasn't intentional with it and I think what you're writing has really taught me is it's good to have the knowledge and it's good to even use it, but you've got to be intentional when you're in leadership, if you really want to have an impact on people. Um, so I, again, really appreciate that. Tell me, how do you know when, because you're a very prolific writer, you've written I think 11 books and it's sold millions of copies and you've in every language almost. But um, how do you know when you've written a great book compared to a good book?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I think the thing about it is I'm very blessed to have a great editor and others here in my company that edit for me and they have very high standards and I do too, but I'm not very good at finishing a book and they do not let me mail in the end and the end. I'm a really. I really don't want to ever write a book and go, well that's the one that was really bad. Right? So every time I write a book I think, okay, God, help me to do this. Well, and I don't want to, um, to do something. First of all, I don't take on a book if I don't really feel passionate about what I'm writing about. Sometimes people say, what are you going to write next? And I say, well, I don't have anything right now. Maybe that's my last book, so I don't want to right something just to write a book. Secondly, when we're doing it, I think about the reader and I think if this is not compelling and it's really easy to get lazy. And, and thankfully my editor, Tracy Noble, she'll just say, pat, I don't think this character works or I don't think this point is made clearly. Okay. And so we've kind of agonize over it,
Speaker 2:right?
Speaker 3:So I would say it's just blood, sweat and tears and the grace of God.
Speaker 2:How long does it take? How long does it take you to write a book? What's the timeframe? But you're usually working on.
Speaker 3:Somebody asked me that just the other day and I get it. I get asked a lot. And the truth is I say it's kind of like having a baby. It's probably about nine months, but I don't write full time. If I actually had the capacity and the schedule cleared enough to sit down and write a book full time, I would say it's two and a half or three months. I think I'm a pretty quick writer, but I don't write that way. I write and then I do other things and I think about things and it kind of bakes and I think about it in the shower while I'm exercising. And so I think most of my books play out over the course of about nine months. Again, I only write for like two days. I'll write for a day and a half or two days at a time, then I'll put it down. And
Speaker 2:do you have to plan your day to, to right? Are you planning a day writing or just. Okay, I've got time. I'm going to do it
Speaker 3:now. What my, my office will do and it gets harder all the time is they'll send me off to this hotel that's about two miles from my office and two miles from my house. It's in between my house and my office because I like my family and my colleagues too much to do it when I'm around this. So they sent me off to this hotel and it's very lonely and I sit there and I write and um, and I call people, I say, Laura, can my wife send the kids over to go swimming at the hotel with me? Spend the night. And so I'm, I'm an extrovert and I, I like people. And so it's tough for me to do. So they make me go away and do it,
Speaker 2:you know, I don't know how you get any work done. I believe your. Your office is in San Francisco,
Speaker 3:is that correct? Well, it's in the San Francisco Bay area. It's about 15 miles east of the city, over the bay and over the hill, so we're kind of in our own little area. It looks a little bit more like Tennessee promise.
Speaker 2:I can tell you. My wife and I went there last year and I don't know how you get any work done in San Francisco. It's such a great city and it's such a great city to be outdoors and that I understand them having to send you away a little bit to kind of become a hermit for awhile in. Right?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I should probably go someplace in the winter where it's all totally snowed in. Like in the movies you see people didn't have no way to get out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that could be a good ploy for sure. Patrick, the, the Wall Street Journal called called G, one of the most in demand speakers and writers and I know that you address millions of people in your conferences and events all around the world and I know that you get energy from both writing and also from the consulting and speaking. But I had a question for you. Is there, is there an author that you love that maybe doesn't get the recognition that they deserve yet?
Speaker 3:Oh Wow. Well, yes, yes. I've always. Um, and you know, just in the world, there's a guy named John Carmichael who wrote a book called drunks and monks and he's brilliant and fascinating and it's one of the best books I've ever read. I read it a number of times. I keep copies around a gifted guys. I know it's a, it's a faith based book, but it's a book about his life and, and he's just brilliant. Just brilliant and incredible writer on Amazon and look it.
Speaker 2:What's that? I just wrote that. So I'll definitely be going on Amazon later. Yo, I, I missed the title again. Drunks and at. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay. And he's just brilliant. And if you, when you go on Amazon, it's, it seems like every 15 reviews says I think this is the best book I've ever read. So he's one of those guys, man. Wow. And then, um, but, and then in the business world, there's book, I haven't read it all because I'm so busy, but it's called, um, gosh, let me see if I can remember the title and it's written by the Arbinger Institute. The, the guy who wrote it was so humble and he didn't even put a name on it. I think others helped with it, but it was called leadership and the art of self deception. That's what it's called. That's the book that a lot of people know of but doesn't get enough traction. But then one of the best books I've ever read in the world, most people don't know it was written by this priest and it's called searching for and maintaining peace. And His name is Father Jack, Felipe. And then he's a French priest. I think.
Speaker 2:I appreciate those. I feel like I'm always reading three or four books at a time, so I'm definitely going to be picking these up, you know, I kinda like you. I'm a little bit. I like to jump in and then kind of pull aside for a little bit, but I'm always have three or four books I'm reading on my desk. So. Yeah. So,
Speaker 3:and, but I don't do a lot of reading because when I'm writing I don't have a chance to do so people are always saying, have you read this? I'm like, I haven't yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I find I'm always, uh, a year or two behind. But that's okay. We'll catch up eventually. So. Yeah, that's right. So, so let's talk about your, your recent book, the ideal team player and you know, we call this show the servers journey and we're real intentional, uh, you know, with that name because we, we want to help people not only lead but, but lead with that a certain amount of integrity. And I was wondering as you're writing this book, you talk about three virtues that a team player hat has, um, can, can you kind of share a little bit about those?
Speaker 3:Sure. And just so you know, you asked me a great question before rocky about making sure my book from this book, this book was, it's so simple, I wasn't even going to write it and people encourage me to. And I thought, well, I want to make sure it's good enough. I thought it was too simple and then we wrote it and thankfully Tracy's a good editor and we made it compelling. But um, it's selling faster than any book I've ever written. And I think it's because it's so applicable. So the, the, the, uh, the book is about how to find people and develop people who, who just work really well on teams. That comes down to three qualities. A person who's a great team player is going to be humble, which means it's not about themselves, it's about others. This is servant thing that you were talking about. They're going to be hungry, which means they're going to want to work hard. Have a desire to do more, right, so they don't just do the minimum. They were all like, I'll go beyond the minimum beyond what's expected and do more and they're going to be smart, but not intellectually smart. They're going to be emotionally intelligent, which is very important to be so important. Yeah. So if you can find people that are humble, hungry and smart, they're just going to do well on a team and they're going to work well with others. And if you can get a whole team of people like that, they get, you know, one plus one plus one equals 10, gets so much done. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I don't think the book was simple. I think you're underselling it a little bit, but I understand what you're saying. But I love what you were, you know, you mentioned it's applicable to almost everybody. And what I've found in my own store as I'm having, you know, 16 year old kids that are, it's their very first job and we're going over some of this content and they're really moved by it and they kind of get it and in particular they get it. They understand because you talk a lot about, well, what if a team player has to have those traits and not all three, what kind of issues can develop? And they are so intrigued by the idea of that. So I was wondering if you could flesh out just a little bit of that, what that might mean.
Speaker 3:Sure. So you have humble, hungry, and smart, right? Let's say you find there's a person who's really pretty darn good at two of them but not another. So let's say they're very humble, which is the most important and they're hungry. They're hard working, but they're not very emotionally intelligent, so they just don't quite know how to say the right thing. Understand other people's feelings. Now I have a lot of time for people like this because that means they have good intentions, but we call that person the accidental mess maker. So they, they do good things and they mean well, but they're kind of ruffle people's feathers and you got to clean up after him and you got to make them apologize and they glad to do it because they're like, I didn't mean it. And so that's the accidental mess maker, it's a person who's good at humble and hungry, but they're pretty, pretty clueless about emotional intelligence that you've really got to work with them on training them about how to understand people better and adjust their behavior if a person is humble and smart, so they're, they're not ego driven and they do understand people, but they're not very hungry. So they're, they're pretty lacking in and hunger. We call that the, um, the lovable slacker. That's that person. It's fun to be around and, and people enjoy them and they're, they're, they're, they care about people. They just don't really like to work hard. Right? The problem is they're lovable. So we keep them around sometimes longer than we should, or we tolerate them for a long time. We really got to push them in addition to being the wonderful person they need to also carry their weight and people usually have to pick up for them their slack. And that can cause resentment on a team even though they mean well,
Speaker 2:sure, yeah. There's a couple things that I'm trying to draw out for anybody who would listen to this podcast is that, you know, it's good to be hungry and it's good to be humble and if you're good at those two, that's a good start. But, but as your book shares, you've got to be smart too, and it's okay to be smart and hungry and that's good too, but you've got to find that humble you, you know, you've got to be this to be a complete leader. You've got to be that ideal team player too.
Speaker 3:Anyone is lacking. There's one that's agreed, nobody's perfect, sure. But if there's one that's really lacking, it's problematic.
Speaker 2:Well, and, and I think too, it's an we understand no one's complete person. I might be very strong and weak in another, but I think what your book helps to really bring out is, but you can't be lazy about that third. You have to be working toward getting better at it. You know, you can't just kind of say, oh, well I'm just not very good at that. You know, to be the ideal person. You gotta work at it and you know, the thing I noticed, uh, I work a lot with younger is they're very, very smart and they're pretty humble to the a or I'm sorry they're actually hungry and humble, but the part that they tend to struggle with right now is that smart and it's that emotional intention, uh, you know, reading people and, and I think it, some of it is maybe, um, the way we interface with people so much more of a over social media that we've kind of lost a little bit on that one on one space.
Speaker 3:Yes. You know, I noticed that my boys, I have two boys in college. I have two other boys too. I think in the early when they were younger they get delayed in their social skills because of that. And then they went to college and they joined a fraternity where they got forced to really interact with people in an intense way and now they live in a house with 11 guys. And my boys have grown so much in their ability. They're 20 years old now and they've really become young men who know how to talk to people and deal with people, but they were forced to do that in college. Whereas when we were kids, I don't think without social media and without computers being around and everything and pv being relatively limited, we had to deal with one another today, don't necessarily have to do so sometimes it's delayed.
Speaker 2:I have three daughters, so when we're off air, I may need to try to arrange a, maybe a marriage or two because I'm looking for very eligible, you know, good, good young men. Uh, but I, I've seen the same thing with within my own family there. I think there really are humble and they're really, really just innately hungry. They want to know, they want to be caused, driven. Um, but we've had to work on that one aspect of, you know, being, being the emotionally smart. And I think you're right. My oldest is in college and that's Kinda where she turned the corner where she kind of looked up and said, oh wait, this person really exist. They're there right in front of me. They're not just on a computer screen, I better treat them well. Uh, so I, I agree with you on that. Alright, so
Speaker 3:it didn't cover the last one because it's the most important pleased and that is if a person is hungry and smart, so they're really driven and they're really smart but they're not humble. That's the most dangerous kind of because that's what we call the skillful politician. That's the person who, who knows how to fake it, but they really are not humble and you just don't want those in your store, in your organization because they will usually, by the time you figured out what's going on there, it's usually a trail of dead bodies behind them. And it creates. So when you interview the first thing, we should always go for us, humility has become but this because skillful politician, they destroy organization.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, it's funny because I think that we all know, you know, in our past we, we know a time where we've kind of been manipulated by somebody who was hungry and smart but lacked that humility and it never leaves us with a good feeling, you know. But you know, in no comparison if somebody is humble and, and, uh, Hungary, okay, they, we, we kind of cut them some slack I think. Hi. How do you look for. So you mentioned this aspect of humility. How do you find that in an applicant when you're interviewing them? What do you look for?
Speaker 3:Well, there's all kinds of things. There's all kinds of ways to do it. I mean it's just the way they talked to you. Usually an interview that's the most important thing, which is not very scientific, but you can ask questions too about what things they've done in their lives and if they talk about we and they share credit for it, that's a decent indicator. And if they're talking about I all the time, that might not be, but I didn't. The other thing is just just to ask them about their strengths and weaknesses and humble people are usually comfortable talking about real weaknesses. They have. Talk to other people that have worked with them and just and you know, ask them questions like compared to the other people who worked for how, how selfless is, are they, how much are they interested in other people. And I have a friend that worked at a was a senior executive at southwest airlines, which is wonderful company and he used to look for this. He would interview people and he would do something interesting. He would say, so tell me about the largest group of people you've ever managed. And the people that he was interviewing often thought he was looking to see if they could manage a lot of people at once and they say, oh I want to manage 15 people. You said, okay, well who were they? And tell me about them. And humble people are usually other centered and they know that people in their lives and they can tell you detail. And he's like, okay, tell me about this person that worked on your team. What was the most important thing going on in her life? When you work, you know, and you can tell if a person's faking that.
Speaker 2:Sure, I think in one of your books and um, I can't remember because to be honest, I've written read almost all of your books and so sometimes I confuse them and I'm kind of,
Speaker 3:I do too. I wrote them and I confuse them. So don't feel bad
Speaker 2:sometimes I take a principal from one and a principal from another and I combine them and I'm like, okay, wait, these are two separate books. I think you're giving him another idea. One of your books, you, you mentioned that there was a, uh, a peer of yours that couldn't figure out. She kind of had this dream job and everything seemed to be all right. She worked for a great company. She had great pay, great everything, but something was unsettling. She just, it didn't connect and then she kind of figured it out when after she came back from my maternity leave, nobody really asked about her, her new baby, this like huge thing in her life and nobody really seemed to care. And uh, I forget which book it was, but that had an impact on me about really these are real lives that people lead. And you have, you have to care about those kinds of things. Um, even sometimes more than the results you might have at the workplace.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. People are human beings. I'd say they're children of God first. And if we're not interested in that part of them, why are they going to want to go above and beyond in the work we do? And we don't do that just because we want to work hard. We do it because you got to treat them well. And um, and a humble person understands that a manipulative person might take an interest in them just to get them to do more work. And humility can't be faked.
Speaker 2:I think short term people might be full, but longterm they really know. And I'm a big believer, uh, I've, I've written an article about the fact that I feel like most people don't leave organizations. They leave bad leaders. They, I mean, they literally can't wait to get away from somebody who just isn't, doesn't care about them. They have to be cared about too.
Speaker 3:Uh, but, but that's companies in the world and you know, chick fil a's on that list. Southwest is on that list, plenty of others. It's because, I mean it starts and ends with a genuine concern about the people that work there. And I've worked at other companies that didn't have that and nobody was, you know, but it's not like, it's not just corporate thing. They have to teach find managers who do that because people don't just leave the company, they leave their manager, but you've got to create a culture where that's what's expected
Speaker 2:for us. It starts with true cathy pretty clear. He was setting an example and then, you know, I felt like I had to live up to that example. Um, it was a nate, it was almost viral in our car is like a virus in our company that it was a good virus, you know, so. So I don't want to keep you forever but, but we have a couple of fun things we like to do. And the first one that I'm just curious about before we get into our, we have a segment that we call this one or that one, but do you have a, do you have a favorite book that you've written or do you, I mean, you know, cause I'm sure they're all like your children as you spent all this time with them, but is there one that you really love are very proud of,
Speaker 3:you know, I wrote a book recently that nobody knows it, the people here don't know about, probably on the call it better pasture, which is for priests because I did some work. We were trying to teach how to be better leaders and I wrote one called the better pastor. So in some ways that's my favorite. I think the book, um, I wrote called, we changed the title actually. It used to be called the three signs of a miserable job. Now it's called the truth about employee engagement. There's something I like about that because it's kind of why I started doing this career. And it's about how to manage people so that they feel loved and respected and engaged in their work, which is what you and I were just talking about. But other than that, it's, they are kind of like kids in the sense that I don't really have a favorite. Um, and thankfully I've worked really hard on all of them, so I don't think like, oh, this one's stinks, you know, I think they're all okay. So it's hard to pick one.
Speaker 2:Well, I, uh, I got thrown off a little bit with that name change because I actually own the book in, in both titles, but I was happy you changed the name because I did feel like the first one, it almost felt like even though it was all this really great information, it almost had like a negative connotation in the title. So I was happy to see that you changed it. Um, and that book is one of the ones that we've used at our store to go over with all of our leadership and I think it's been one of the most influential and how they treat others and how they recognize that people have to be acknowledged for who they really are. So it's a great book stuff
Speaker 3:place in a restaurant. I worked at a restaurant when I was a kid and, and I think the dignity that people need in all jobs is important. By the way today as we're recording this, is that if May 1st and the Catholic Church, I'm a Catholic, it's the feast of St Joseph, the worker and the dignity that people need to have in their jobs. And I just think that's so important. And if you can provide people with these three things from that book, they're really going to love their work and they're going to feel
Speaker 2:absolutely.
Speaker 3:That's kind of my, one of my favorites. It's
Speaker 2:always surprising to me because I've had people leave for a better opportunity that I really, I was so excited for them and yet they seem to not want to leave. And it was because of some of these things that we were doing that we learned from the book because I think, I think good people recognize it's not all about money. It is about money sometimes, but not all. And I'm in a good place here. That makes sense. Um, so yeah, we, we, uh, we uh, credit a lot to that book. So. All right, so first I want to plug you or I want to give you the opportunity to plug yourself, talk about how somebody can get your books or they can request for you to come speak. Um, give us some information on, on how to get in contact with you.
Speaker 3:Well, our website's the best place to start. Www. Of course, table group. Our company is called the table groups have table groups and there's everything on there, book speaking, writing products and everything else. We're also having a new event next January of 2019 in Dallas. Our first ever conference for leaders and consultants. And so we're going to have 800 people in Dallas spending little over two days with us learning about all this stuff we do. And it's going to be fun and some interesting speakers and, and so that's our first ever conference. We're calling it the unconference because we're going to try to make it different.
Speaker 1:Alright. So we're going to go into our first fun segment. This one or that one. And in this segment is really easy. I'm not going to put you too much on the spot, but I'm going to mention to people and I want you to kind of tell me your favorite and maybe why you liked that one better than the other one. Alright, so the first two are elan musk or Richard Branson.
Speaker 3:I think Richard Branson, I think he's a little more joyful and I think that, um, I'm not big on ego and I think that Branson might be a little less ego driven that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's a tough race.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a little less ego driven and I'm a little more joyful, maybe a little bit more into people. Elon Musk seems a little bit more like I want to. Then he says some things. This just seems like it's Hubris. And so anyway, way to go with Branson.
Speaker 2:And you're a traveler, I bet you travel quite a bit. So the people who travel a lot tend to like Richard Branson and kind of what he's done for the airline industry.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Virgin does a great job.
Speaker 2:Next would be steve jobs or Bill Gates.
Speaker 3:You know, I had, I met Steve Jobs, I interviewed with him once when he was at Pixar and he offered me a job. Um, I again, I would say I think and Steve Jobs, God rest his soul. He's passed on, but I think bill gates is a little less about the spotlight and um, and so probably I would think he's a little bit more, the humility might be a little bit more there. Think Steve Jobs and I interviewed with him. He was a little, he's so brash and I think that, uh, Bill Gates, so certainly not one lacking confidence. I don't, I don't think he wanted to be in the spotlight all the time.
Speaker 2:Right? Yeah. And you can see what he's done. All the good things that he's doing with his money. He has a chance to be very greedy and he's not. So what was the job you were interviewing for with Steve Jobs?
Speaker 3:Well, he was running pixar and they needed a head of hr and a headhunter called me and I wasn't really an hr guy and they said that was okay. So they offered me the job to run human resources at Pixar and um, and I turned him down because I didn't love her and because I Kinda knew that working that closely with Steve would've been a pretty crazy thing. No, I knew of his reputation. And what's interesting is when I turned them down, he called the headhunter back and said, hey listen, I'm going to come take pat to lunch tomorrow because I don't think people turn Steve Jobs down for a lot of things. And then that day is the day the CEO of apple quit and the board rehired jobs to run apple. So I fell off his radar. I think that was probably blessing from God and jobs had a lot of good things, you know, and I think he tried, he wanted to do good things for other people too. And we had a great. He and I had a great conversation about Pixar movies and how important they were and the stories and everything, so I'm sure he had a lot of good qualities, but he was probably just a little too mercurial for my.
Speaker 2:I mean, without a doubt. Steven Spielberg or Walt Disney. Oh, well, yeah. You know what? He's a hundred percent. Every single person that we've asked this question too is always Walt Disney and I, I'm guessing it's because of the story and the child in him and how he did this amazing thing with a culture that still. It's still Walt Disney's culture.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And you know, the, the simple virtue and his stories and it was a time when, when every story taught lessons that were good for society and I certainly love a lot of Spielberg movies, but I don't love them all. And um, and I don't know that they're all really geared toward the same kind of thing. I mean, Disney, Walt Disney was just such a, a neat guy. Like you said, childhood family. It was just wonderful. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. Now these last two are very important to me. A number one star wars or Harry Potter?
Speaker 3:Well, I will tell you star wars, because I really liked star wars and I will. I'm going to tell you something else. I've never read a single Harry Potter book or seen a Harry Potter movie my kids have. I just have no interest. I don't know why. The genre. I've heard some things that don't sound great about them, but I love the star wars movies, although I have to say they. They've kind of lost their way. I think the last one has gotten a little too dignified, if you will.
Speaker 2:I think people of our generation and we definitely liked the original star wars, were having trouble with some of the newer ones.
Speaker 3:Yes. I think the best one was the empire strikes back, which was number five now, but it was the second one. So definitely star wars.
Speaker 2:I mentioned that I have a household full of uh, women and they're great young women. Very opinionated. So this last one is a question that they demand. I asked Broadway or rock and roll.
Speaker 3:Wow. I'd have said rock and roll most of my life. I'd still say rock and Phantom of the opera. I love that. A great Broadway show is great, but I'm not one of those chorus line liked it. Tease people about those because I think they're kind of generic and I know that makes me sound dumb. So I'll take rock and roll, but I do love a great musical or a great show, but. But I'm going to go with rock and roll.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We, uh, I, I would have the exact same journey. I would've said rock and roll most of my life, but my daughters, they require that I liked Broadway and I get to know it. Otherwise I have very limited conversations with them. So. And you should see rocky on the core of slowing test. No one wants to see that so.
Speaker 3:Well my wife loves musicals and I always give her a hard time about the ones that I think are not that great, but you know, it's amazing when you go to one and you realize how talented people are. Part of the problem with musicals is so few people have access to it.
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, it's funny, we, you know, I mentioned we were out in San Francisco and we had been trying to see Hamilton forever and couldn't get tickets and by luck got tickets out in San Francisco and you know, again, it was so hard to find the tickets that we had to travel all the way across the country to get them. So you're right access.
Speaker 3:Wow. Wow. Well it's really, it's kind of something for, for people with money. Yes. Unfortunately. Yes.
Speaker 2:Well, or they have money for limited time until they buy the Hamilton tickets and then they don't.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes. The price of things. It's just crazy. Well y'all go rock and roll.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if, if, if you pass a test app or we're going to go onto our final segment. It's a simple one, but since we believe that each of us is on this journey, we'd like to ask the question of tell us your favorite leader or maybe quote,
Speaker 3:well, the Bible, you know, come to me all you who are burdened and oppressed because my yoke is easy and my burden is light and I think there's just so much anxiety and fear in the world and, and Jesus just said, hey, lay down right here and now I'll help you with that. That's an awesome. My favorite, my favorite leader. You don't feel Roosevelt would have to be on that list. He was so non ego driven and so plain spoken.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with you. And he was green before his time.
Speaker 3:Exactly. He didn't do it for the wrong reasons. You know what I mean? He sometimes I feel like people don't even know that he was a conservationist way back when it wasn't cool.
Speaker 2:Yes, he, he, he, I, I read a lot of biographies, so I read his and I. There was so much. I didn't even realize that he was a, that we attribute that or that we should attribute to him that we don't so.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and he has a great quote. One of the best quotes I heard this just recently, he said, comparison is the thief of joy.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. That is a wonderful quote.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for joining us, Patrick. I think Larry's got something to say and then we'll let you go. Thank you. This has been one fantastic journey that we're on. I want to remind everyone that can still subscribe to the podcast. Do you know where to do it? Just punch in there and subscribe and we want to thank everybody that's coming along on the journey and also it will be able to get were Patrick's books are, so that's the good thing. Yeah. We'll actually put that up on our website for their servers journey.com and again, A. Patrick, I just want to say I believe and we all believe that are attached to this show, that, that we're. I'm around this journey and it's really all about how you serve others while you're in this role and while you're on this journey, and that's why we're sharing here. So I'm rocky destefano. I want to thank you, Patrick, for joining and for everybody listening. It's up to you now to be a great leader and one with integrity.