The gang talks with their old friend, director Joe Berlinger, about his amazing work in documentary film, and scripted film. We go through Joe’s history starting with BROTHER’S KEEPER, his renowned trilogy PARADISE LOST (The West Memphis Three case (Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley) co-directed with Bruce Sinofsky) on up through his most recent films about Ted Bundy, EXTREMELY WICKED, SHOCKINGLY EVIL AND VILE and THE TED BUNDY TAPES.
We get into the struggles and the ups and downs of getting films made, and the power of film to encourage social change. Kathy and Burk spent many years being subjects of Joe’s camera in the second and third PARADISE LOST documentaries, and we discuss our involvement and Joe’s philosophy of filmmaking.
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The gang talks with their old friend, director Joe Berlinger, about his amazing work in documentary film, and scripted film. We go through Joe’s history starting with BROTHER’S KEEPER, his renowned trilogy PARADISE LOST (The West Memphis Three case (Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley) co-directed with Bruce Sinofsky) on up through his most recent films about Ted Bundy, EXTREMELY WICKED, SHOCKINGLY EVIL AND VILE and THE TED BUNDY TAPES.
We get into the struggles and the ups and downs of getting films made, and the power of film to encourage social change. Kathy and Burk spent many years being subjects of Joe’s camera in the second and third PARADISE LOST documentaries, and we discuss our involvement and Joe’s philosophy of filmmaking.
Join Cinemondo and over a hundred thousand podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Sign up here to get your podcast started!
We're also on Patreon!
Become a Patron on Patreon
Cinemondo Podcast is a weekly show that's released every Monday. If you’d like to support our show, please subscribe to our podcast free in iTunes, and leave us a review!
We want to hear from you so write in with more recommendations and comments. Email us: CinemondoPodcast@gmail.com
Connect with us:
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Burk:hello and welcome to the Cinema Mondo podcast with Kathy, mark and Burke talking about movies, our Psi Phi and unusual unknown, forgotten under appreciated documentary. Always interesting. Today we have a very special guest, Mr Joe Berlinger.
Joe Berlinger:Hey, Joe, Berlin js. But I'm not underappreciated. People appreciate me. Come on, man. That shit into the underappreciate. I mean, I wish I did, but luck of, actually, I wish you were unusual. I don't know doe your San Louis insecure for a second there. No, I think people appreciate me, so that's good. Where are the underappreciated? And we go. Do we tell our lists or your listeners how, how far back we go? We should go back onto that history. Let's start at the beginning. Well, first let's talk about Joe as who he is. Who is Joe? Yeah, it's Joe Berlin. Joseph
Burk:umentary film maker, who's made some of the most astounding documentaries you've ever seen and you, if you haven't seen him, you've got to go immediately and look them up and watch them. All of them are just the top quality of the art.
Joe Berlinger:The first Joe Berlinger film I saw was brother's keeper. And he made that exactly Bruce and ask you, of course, Angio both directed it. Um, horrifying movie on so many levels. Horrifying. Well, it's a heartwarming to see something heartwarming tale of murder. I think it was sort of the opposite of what came later and paradise lost. Um, but to have that scary pig killing cvs, you know, I can't deal with animals at us, but that really happens. You know, it happens. In fact, there's a funny story associated with that pig killing scene. You know, they're just slaughter of a real pig in the movie. Right. And even though the movie went to Sundance and people loved it and it got great reviews and won a prize, it was, this is 19 nine, January of[inaudible] 92 before, there was a big tradition of documentaries in the movie theater. And so we had this dream of having the doc released as a theatrical film, but that documentaries in the movie theater, we're still a, you're moving my mind and I got closer to my mind. Do I need to repeat any of that now? We're good. Okay. So, so, uh, in 1992 there was only a handful of documentaries, you know, that got released in a movie theater. There was no big documentary explosion the way we saw just a few, few years later. So everybody passed on brother's keeper at Sundance. So all the distributors pass, even though it won the audience award and it got good reviews and people loved it. And so we decided, Bruce Synopsis and I decided to release the movie ourselves. So we a year off, we invested everything. We had gambled all, you know, credit cards whenever, because we felt that this movie should be seen in theaters. And literally right before the, you know, the New York premiere and before the whole release was about to start, I got a phone call from the humane society saying, we understand that you have, you have the killing of an animal in your movie brother's keeper. Is that true? I said, well, yes, there's a scene where a pig is slaughtered. And the humane society said, well, we're going to have to organize a boycott of your film. And, and, and, and, you know, make people not go see it in the movie theater. And I'm like, but wait a second, this is a documentary. It's a real scene. We were observing something that was happening. We didn't cause it to be, to, to happen. We were observing reality. And the woman said, oh, um, it's a documentary. I said yes. And she said, oh, we don't have jurisdiction over reality. So she left. So she decided to forego any action against us. Did boy, so it, so there you go. It is a hard scene to watch it. Yeah, but it's a film that you shouldn't be. Listeners shouldn't be. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to talk about, that's not a big, it's heart warming story. It's an unusual documentary. It's unlike any other documentary I'd ever seen. It's a a, like a lot of your films where you start watching it and you think you're watching this and you realize you're watching that, you know, it takes you in a different direction than you thought you were going. And it's not what you might expect if you just read the tagline for it won't great documentaries take right and left turns and take you on unexpected paths. And that's what that did. And that's what all your movies do. The person that you'd feel like you would normally sympathize with in a, in a another documentary, you're, you find yourself not liking or vice versa, you know? Yeah. Well, the steady, aesthetically what we were trying to do is push the form of documentary by, you know, and when I say this to younger filmmakers, um, they think, well, what are you talking about? Documentaries. That's the way documentaries are. But back then we did a few things that I think were new for four documentary specifically. Things like, uh, we had an evocative opening title sequence, which in a documentary was kind of unheard of. You're not supposed to do according to the Documentarians, that era, you can't do anything that you know, enhances emotion or enhances how you feel about a subject because that's not journalistic. So we, we did things like, you know, an evocative opening title sequence. We did things like an original music score, that fiddle score by Jay Ungar Amali may say, oh, you can't have a music score and your documentary, cause that manipulates emotions. And we didn't buy any of that. We felt like, we felt like, well, you know, the cinema verite filmmakers who we emulated and revered, like the Maysles brothers, Penny Baker, Fred Wiseman, all those guys, you know, we certainly made the, in the style of capturing reality as it's unfolding the way they did. But, but cinema verite filmmakers of the 60s believed that they were capturing objective reality and in fact that they're in, there's no such thing as directors. They didn't take directing credits on their films. If you're a pure cinema verite, you know, if you're a purist in the cinema verite field, and while we revere the films they made and borrowed many of their techniques, we felt like, no, no. All filmmaking is very subjective from, from the angle you choose to shoot to the hundreds of hours you leave on the floor, the editing room floor and now in the digital been, um, you know, back then it literally was the editing room floor. Um, but also, you know, the filmmaking is in itself subjective, all filmmaking is subjective. Even documentary making, that doesn't mean that can't be truthful, but you're going for the emotional truth of a situation, not the literal truth. The literal truth of paradise lost is you have to sit and watch six weeks of dailies of a murder trial. That's the literal truth. If you want the literal truth, what you're trusting the filmmaker to do is to give you the emotional truth. And so there's only an hour have a murder trial in paradise lost, even though the trials took six weeks. So with, so that was our philosophy is like, let's take all the tools of a narrative filmmaker and create a documentary that has a narrative structure that has a beginning, middle and end and you know, uh, selectively withholding information to the right dramatic moment. All the things of a scripted film maker thinks about, we started thinking about for documentary and that was kind of knew it was, it was a very interesting period at late eighties, early nineties for documentary, Errol Morris was kind of pushing the envelope with recreations. That was his contribution with them Blue Line. Nobody thought you should be doing recreation's. He did. And he did it in a very cinematic way. Michael Moore had just come out with Roger and me and of course he was the first filmmaker to be kind of like the on camera, right? Curmudgeon per social justice crusader. And what I think Bruce and I were doing where we were saying, hey, documentary filmmaking is not, is not as no different than scripted film making in the sense of embracing all the tools that a filmmaker has to create emotional truth. That doesn't mean you can put words into people's mouths. You know, you're, you're bound by certain rules of journalism. You know, you can't make things up. You can't overly manipulate chronology. Notice I say overly manipulate, you know, many, you know, every documentarian manipulates chronology and anybody who says they don't is kidding themselves. The, the very act of condensing a multi year event to two hours, for example, is a manipulation of chronology. So you're, you're, you're still bound by certain journalistic rules. You can't make up events, put words into people's mouths, et Cetera, et cetera. But why not embrace, you know, certain tools of the narrative filmmaker. So that's what I think brother's keeper was about. And, um, and I don't know, there you go. And then paradise lost happened. Yeah, I kicked in the paradise lost, which is about the West Memphis three. That's probably one of your most famous documentary is I would say. Um, I think that's, although interestingly, because Netflix did such an amazing job with my Tony Robbins film by Tony Robbins, film is actually the most, is the most, this is the thing most people ask me about. And going around here. But in terms of critical response or just importance in the world, I do think that the paradise lost series where maybe even the Ted Bundy, um, may have surpassed. Yeah, well, Bundy did amazingly well and flex, I mean, Netflix is like an amazing deliberate. Again, Alex is an amazing deliver of eyeballs, but paradise lost for me was the most important film in my two sequels. Yes. But the original was the, was to me the most important thing we've done, not just because it led to, you know, meeting you guys and you guys getting involved and everyone getting involved to get those guys out of prison. That obviously is a fantastic tangible outcome. Uh, you know, documentarians dream for effecting social change. And so to actually have that kind of tangible impact on a story, you know, not just the films, but the stuff you guys did and the stuff, um, lots of supporters did to get them out of prison is pretty amazing. But the films were definitely the catalyst. And Damien himself says he would've been killed if it wasn't for the movies because people would have forgotten about the story, but not just for that reason, which is important enough. The other reason for me that the, the making of paradise lost was such a fundamental, you know, stamp on who I am as a, as an artist, is that, that's the film that at we woke up and realized that film could be used for social justice because, you know, paradise, sorry, brother's keeper. There was no s you know, even though it was about an indigent guy who was wrongly accused, that movie had a happy ending. They thought he was, you know, he was acquitted. You know, there was no social justice component. Right. Making that film, that film was purely an aesthetic experiment because Bruce Sinofsky and I wanted to push the documentary form a little bit in our own way, which we talked about a minute ago and even going into paradise lost, no social justice component. I mean, you guys have heard the historic before, uh, you know, no social justice element to the making of the ridge. You know, going into paradise lost because Sheila Nevins at Hbo read an article about these three blood thirsty teen satanists who were just arrested for these devil worshiping murders and she wanted a teen killer movie. So we want, you didn't expect the story that you got, right? So we went down to Arkansas thinking we were making a film about these rotten teenagers who had done the, this triple homicide of three, eight year olds and sacrifice them to the devil. And you know, because as you guys know, the press down there were, were, were, were selling the selling the teen state in the story. You know, Gary gets you, the chief inspector was saying on a scale of one to 10 the evidences in 11 there was the bogus confession that was printed in the newspaper before trial. So, you know, we had no reason to think that we weren't going down to make a salacious movie about teen Satan worshipers. That's what HBO wanted. And that's what we thought we were doing. And so, and the first and the first three months that we were in Arkansas, you know, we arrived a week after the arrests in June of[inaudible] 93 the trials were still seven months away in January of[inaudible] 94 and the first three months of the trial, or sorry, the first three months of being embedded in the community before the trials, we mainly spent with the families of the victims. Those are the ones who gave us access. We thought we were telling their story. We convinced them to give us access because we said, hey, you know, telling this story, hopefully it will help other families avoid this. You know, we really thought we were making f kids killing kids film. I mean just just the year before there was that Jamie Bulger case in the UK where kids had been killed on the railroad tracks and it's rod on closed circuit TV. And I tried to actually get access to that story and tell that story before paradise lost. And so, you know, we thought there was a kids killing kids film happening. Right. And then finally we gained access to the West Memphis three of course, they weren't called the West Memphis three back then. They were in county lockup awaiting trial. And sometime in November we started doing our first interviews and that's when the light bulb went off like, oh, is that when that light bulb went off, it wasn't like, oh my God, they're innocent. Something one plus one was not a reason not equaling to something was not right about this. You know, Damien, honestly, it was a little hard to read because he was enjoying the attention. Right. And he was kind of, you know, poking fun at everybody, you know, and somewhat in shell shocked about what was going on. But it was my interview with Jason Baldwin where it just didn't seem right. You know, like I'm literally looking at his tiny little wrists and imagining the prosecution's story that he's the one wielding the 10 inch hunting knife and he's the one castrating Christopher Byers. And it's just, it's it, just talking to him, you know, he's a sweet little 16 year old kid and he just did not, you know. So I remember calling Sheila and Evans up at Hbo almost half afraid she was going to cancel the film because she wanted a teens killing teens, teens, teens, killing young kids film. And I said, look, I think they got the wrong guys. Um, you know, we don't think it's what we thought it was. And to her credit, she said, keep going. That sounds more interesting. Never imagining by the time I assumed it would, you know, like this things would work itself out. And by the time we got to trial or we may not even get to trial because it just seems so ridiculous. And that's where I say the making of paradise lost was my wake up call because I had no real negative encounters with the criminal justice system before brother's keeper worked out for the defendant, seemed like justice was served. And so with paradise lost, it wasn't, you know, we just couldn't believe what we witnessed. That trial was just, you know, as people who know the film, you know, no physical evidence, you know, Metallica lyrics being entered into Trump and to evidence Stephen King books. It just seemed like, oh my God, this is a modern day witch hunt. And, and the final scene of paradise lost is we see Jason and Damien, I mean, Jessie's has already been convicted in the first half of the movie. And for Damien and Jessie's, sorry, Damien and Jason's separated second trial. Uh, the final scene of the movie is them being chained up and let off Damien to death row Jason Life Without parole. And Bruce and I looked at each other and couldn't believe that we, what we had just witnessed, we were just emotionally drained. And that's when the light bulb went off for me that, oh wait, we have the tools. This isn't just an aesthetic exercise and had to make a cool documentary. This is, we have the tools to right a wrong, this is where the social justice gene and me awoken. And ever since then, most of my films have some social justice component to it. And that's when I realized film can be used for social change. You still have to be a good filmmaker, tell a good story, do it, do it in an inventive way because otherwise people will be bored. You have to move people. But that's when the, that's when the realization came to me that my mission in life is not just being a filmmaker, but being a filmmaker, you know, who can affect social change in this particular area of criminal justice, which, you know, most of my films have kind of fallen into that bucket. So you went into that not expecting it, but now you know, is, is, do you feel like there's a little bit of that, not, I want to say thrilled, but that moment since you're actually doing advocacy, in a way, it's a lot of these films since, do you feel like approaching it that way now is a better or worse because there's not a surprise to you? Like there's no revelation as much? Well, I mean, I think any film I've started never turns out the way it ends up being. So that always comes to pass, like the Metallica film, the Metallica film was supposed to be just a little corporate assignment shooting a little B roll because they were wanted a little B roll on the back of the CD that they were about to release in an era when digital was just starting to nip at the heels of the record business. But they were still selling physical cds and they just wanted some, you know, behind the scenes band stuff, slapped on the back of a CD. Just then it became this three year journey that I never would have imagined. So who they hired because you're going to dig up some stuff. So we did dig up some stuff you did. Um, but you know, so, so Metallica, so every film I've started, it turns out to be something else. But you know, there's no disappointment. I mean, I, it's my filter. Like I will, I take, I mean, and again, not every film is about social justice. I do also, you know, Tony Robbins, Metallica, those are much more cultural kind of portraits. Um, but you know, I do feel like the criminal justice system has been a great area to focus on cause it's so rife with problems and there were so many wrongful conviction cases
Burk:and then talked about this before where you, it's almost like any rock you kick over stuff is going to come crawling out. It's, I think we talked about the idea before where if you just point to any random person and you did a good documentary about that person's life, it would be interesting. Yeah. You know, and if you did any, if you took any case and really looked into it in a, in a really insightful way, you're going to find drama and, and uh,
Joe Berlinger:depth. Yeah. I mean that's, that's the great gift and debt that we owe those cinema verite filmmakers of the 60s, you know, it wasn't, you know, most people don't. I mean today cameras are so ubiquitous and everything is shot. Like people don't realize there was a time when, you know, the reason that documentary in the 50s was all newsreel with narration is because they didn't have the f the literal technical achievement. You, you know, you, in order to have sync sound picture and sound in sync, you have to plug into an electrical source. Yeah. Until the early sixties. And then in the early sixties, the Maysles brothers and um, you know, uh, uh, Robert drew and Penny Baker, all these guys figured out a way to go out into the real world and have sound, which is, you know, on quarter inch tape and 60 millimeter film, which is how documentaries used to be shot, how you can get sync sound, which sounds so basic. Like you shoot your phone, you have sync sound, but back then you couldn't get sync sounds. So they made this technological achievement and so, you know, so that you could go out into the world and capture reality. But what these guys did that most people don't appreciate is they created a whole other philosophy of filmmaking, which is, yes, we can do a report, but we can also use verite filmmaking to tell human stories, to embrace ambiguity, to tell something as exciting and interesting as anything you could ever script. So to me it was the philosophical idea that no, no filming reality doesn't have to just be report, right. Poor Taj or journalism. It can be this artistic expression of telling human stories.
Burk:Like who would have thought that grey gardens would be so compelling still? You know? I mean, think about before it was made.
Joe Berlinger:Yeah. The idea of like go there and film them. Yeah. Yeah. Who would've thought that would be still on everybody? This top 10 list or my favorite Maysville brothers, Phil is actually one that a lot of people don't know unless you're like a real doc geek, but the best film, his salesman, Oh yeah. From 19 from 1968 which I recommend everyone say it's, yeah, it's a film about four door, two door Bible salesman. But it's, it's compelling. It's heartbreaking. Um, and I think one of the challenges of being a documentarian today versus back then is that I think people are so camera aware. Yes. In every story has been told a zillion times and that I think authenticity is harder and harder to achieve. One reason I think brother's keeper is so compelling is that those guys did not understand what it meant to be filmed. This crusty old dairy farming brothers had no concept what it meant means to be filmed, and so we got pure, unadulterated reality. Whereas today, everyone is so savvy that, you know, getting something authentic is takes a little bit of doing. Yeah, that's true. I think you can tell there's so many documentaries, you know, and all the streaming networks. I think sometimes you can tell this one doesn't feel this one feels more money other than other ones. I can tell I said this and it doesn't. It's not as compelling because of that. Yeah. Well that's the thing that we, we saw the first paradise lost documentary biff, I think right around the time it came out because Kathy was working at a, no, no, you guys actually saw it before. I mean your, yeah. Your story is actually pretty amazing. Kathy was working on the poster for Hbo Before the movie came out, so you saw a screener of the unfinished movie. Right. It feels like fate. Sometimes we had a stack because it was American undercover. So they had a stack that was the HBO series of documentaries and just pulled it out of the pile and watched it. So it could have been any of them. I watched that happen to be that one. Well she, she watched it and I remember it was like, Burke, you gotta watch this. Oh my God, what did I do? Cause cause I stunning because at that point, like right now we're so saturated and crime and crime documentaries. Yeah. But that was like really unusual really. There weren't a ton of those kinds of movies out. And also the access we got was on, I look at that film and I still marvel at where we could stick her. Yeah. I mean the, I mean like that meeting with um, Fogelman and Brent Davis where the fan, where they're admitting to the families that they don't have enough evidence to convict and they need to make a deal with Jesse. I mean, can you imagine today having a camera be placed on that meeting? I can't never have access, I think was the biggest part. It really felt like you were seeing behind the scenes, which we'd never seen before. System. Yeah. So yeah, I watched it. I'm like, I assumed, you know, and, and this is before the Internet, so it was hard to find out. Are they out of jail or are they still in jail? Me, there was no way to know. I assume they were out cause it was so stupid. I thought so too. And I just got, I just, you know, it was one of those things I couldn't stop thinking about it. I watched the film and I was just, you know,
Burk:like I've always said with this film that you made the end of the first paradise lost film is absolutely the worst ending of any film I've ever seen. It. I hated it because it was so frustrating. It just, it made me lose sleep. And I ended up just calling the prisons. I called people I try to get, you know, like[inaudible] best. No, it was a terrible ending. You should have rewritten it. No, it was a no, it was one of those things that just couldn't stop thinking about it. There's no way. I remember my father at the time was just almost gone. He's passed away, but that was around at a time when he was dying. And I remember telling him about it and really going into the whole detail details about it. And I, I grew up, when I was a teenager, I grew up in the south and had a lot of those same things. I wasn't as cool as dean. I was the nerdy version of him, but I outdrew yeah, I drew monsters and all, and I used to, I went to a Christian school, I got pulled out into, you know, rooms and discussed about whether or not I had heard as cults or if my parents were atheists and all these kind of things. So I recognize this movie, I recognize the characters in it, and I recognize the accusations that were being made and the, and just the language that we're using and the anger and the whole thing about devil worshipers and the religious scare tactics. Yeah. So it rang true to me. It was really like, this is, yeah, I understand this, I get this, but I wanted to talk to these people. So I called the prisons and I was sure that they weren't in prison anymore. And I got in touch with Damien and Jason and Jessie and they were still there. And well, as you saw, soften the reaction because it was just worldwide phenomenon is that you can't watch that movie not want to do something. We still, people still see it and they don't realize they're even out. And we'll get like, we still get emails from him and go on, you've got to do something for these kids. Check out part three.
Joe Berlinger:Yeah. And you know what you got, you know, the movies get a lot of credit. But as you know, I've always credited you guys with amazing activism. I think the mood, you know, in the celebrities, Eddie Vedder and Johnny Debit, I don't want to dis what they've done because they did a lot, but you know, they, you know, we get credit in the celebrities get credit, but the, but the real people effort led by you guys in those early days and, and creating that website and putting all the, this is like Internet 1.0 you know, I mean, you know, in the earliest days of having websites and that type of thing, you guys putting all the information out there, it was pretty extraordinary actually. Nothing quite like it as we see in paradise lost to a deeply flawed film. But the good part about paradise you guys, yeah. So that's the, that's yes. Paradise lost two is my least favorite film. Even though it's about, you got your[inaudible] your part, your part is the good part, but you know, it was, you know, it was hard to it advocacy in search of a story. Where's paradise lost? One was great filmmaking and the compelling story, right? Paradise lost two was we kept making the films because the first one didn't have the impact. We had hope. We thought the first one was going to result in, in their release. And this Arkansas kind of yawned when the first film came out of the fact that the governor's website put, they put out a note that said that, oh, this is a work of fiction by HBO is a movie company and don't pay attention to this worker depiction money. Yeah, exactly. We're directly lied to by Mike Huckabee. Right? Yeah. So, so, so my, my dislike of paradise lost two is nothing to do with you guys. It has to do with, I think the filmmaking is not very good. It's just, it's a little sensational. And looking for the story and you know, we were deemed ourselves with paradise. Yeah. Just go from one to three. No, no. We've got to see what you guys do. You're a part of it is great. And I feel what you guys did was pretty amazing actually
Burk:decision for us to, cause I remember bits and pieces, you know, so long ago and it was such a whirlwind, but the idea of being asked if we want it to be a part of the second documentary, it was like stepping into the story that we had been so absorbed by all this time. Yeah. And it was a weird thing. It was a strange thing to step into the story and become character.
Joe Berlinger:There's in the drama. Yeah, no, no, that's a big thing. You know, like a filmmakers aren't supposed to, you know, affect the story. They're changing, you know, they're covering. But I realize that's not really the case if you're here to affect social, you know, social change
Speaker 4:I need, you know, and it wasn't something we did because we thought there'd be another movie because who would've thought there'd be another movie? I mean it seemed like a very, you know, the movie was done. It was over. So it was mostly like you just really want to know what happened. Yeah. And so we kept just trying to figure this out so that a lot of the effort was continuing to try and get people to get them out and figure out what really happened to get the real person and then all sudden, oh, uh, their movies going to get made. It's like, oh well it seemed hopeless. Honestly.[inaudible] the light bulb
Burk:that went on for me was when we went out there and visited these guys in prison and met them as people and like you were saying, when you talk to Jason, we, we sat in a conference room in the prison with Jason for however many hours and, and then Damien and then Jesse and it was almost like, wait a minute now we're friends with these guys. We stepped over the threshold, we step through a door and we met. Dan stood them and we, he just threw his case files onto his table and opened everything up to us and said, whatever you, whatever I can do everyone. It seemed like we talked to out there, said those kids got railroaded. What are you guys going to do about it? And we were like waiting,
Speaker 4:well we going to do about it. What this we work on movies. I don't, we work on advertising. I Dunno. Yeah. But yes,
Joe Berlinger:that's an amazing part of story that most people don't know. I don't know. We're gonna have to go in depth on that. Yes. So you, you do documentaries except you've got it once in awhile. Once in awhile. I've made a, I've got a, I've seen a couple of them. So I don't know if you want to talk about the first one, but we can certainly talk about the first one. What do you want to know about it at first? So what, what was your, when you, because you made documentaries and then you decided, okay, now I want to do a scripted film. What made you decide on the property of the Blair witch? I mean, honestly, I was making documentaries and artisan came to me, uh, with the idea, I mean, it's a complicated story. Around the time of Blair witch two, I was deciding I wanted to do a scripted movie and I had developed this idea about there is a true story of a guy who lived in the attic of his lover, unbeknownst to the husband for decades. I mean, a true story. And then he answered and he ended up killing the husband. You know, the, the, the wife kept gaslighting the husband into anytime he would think there was something amiss, she would make him think he's kind of nuts. Like the guy with the love, the attic lover would come out. This is real. Yes, it's a true story. The attic lover, the attic lover would come out, uh, during the day and drink is, this is in the 30s. Drink his brand, he smoked cigars, used his stuff, and then the husband would say like, what's, you know, what's going on with all this? And the wife continually convinced him that he's, wow. Finally, literally three decades and several houses later he, he catches his wife's lover, shoots him dead. There's a sensation of a murder trial and this is what I pitched to a young executive at artisan and I kept pitching the pitches kept going higher and I are finally, I'm sitting in a room with the co, the Co presidents of artisan and I start and I'm thinking, Oh God, this is going well, am I, I'm now sitting in the room with the, with the, with the guys at the green lighters of this thing and I start launching into the pitch for about the fifth time at, you know, they hold up their hand and they said, look, we're not here for that. Exactly. We're here because we think you'd be a good candidate for Blair witch two. And I'm like, you know, the subterfuge of getting me into the room and having me pitch all the way up as a task should have been my first sign that this was not going to go well. Of course I didn't see it that way at that point. And I was, and I said to them, I said, look, you're picking the wrong guy to do the sequel to the Blair witch project. Cause I thought that, you know, even though the first film obviously was a phenomenon and I'm fascinated by the phenomenon, um, I have a lot of problems with the first movie because the first movie equates shaking a camera with reality. And as somebody and as somebody who makes beautifully crafted, well edited, beautifully shot documentaries, real documentarians, don't shake the camera around and somehow that's become shorthand for reality. You know, bad camera work equals reality. Right. And that's that, that's a conceit that always, that bothered me at the time. But the bigger issue is that they literally pulled the wool over audiences, eyes, sold it as a documentary, made people come into the theater thinking they were, it was a documentary. Many people walked out thinking it was a documentary. And instead of news outlets, critically analyzing that instead they, everyone celebrated the marketing hoax. So Heather, Heather, Josh and Mike were on the cover of time, Newsweek, they were on all the talk shows, but nobody was saying, wait a second, if we lie to people and per tell them something is real when it isn't and we continue to blur the line between entertainment and news between fiction and reality, you know, isn't that dangerous? And boy was I prescient to where we are at today. You know, cause that's exactly where we've landed. So I said to these guys that, you know, you're picking the wrong guy. No, no, we think you're the guy. And they gave me three scripts to read that they had commissioned. I went home over Thanksgiving, read them, they all continued the found footage conceit. And I said, guys, you can't keep doing the found footage. I actually was wrong cause the all the fans wanted was the found footage. Can See. But I, but I said, how can you continue the story with found footage when Heather, Josh and Mike were just on the cover of Newsweek, right. If you want me, if you want me, if you want me to do the movie, I recommend making fun of the whole idea of doing a sequel, doing a satire about how real fans of the Blair witch project from last year went down to Burkittsville convinced that even though people said it was just a marketing hoax, that it was real and actually have these kids become so diluted with reality, just like society that, that we can't distinguish between fiction and reality that they end up actually there's no Blair witch, but the kids are the killers. That was my pitch. They said great. We went off, we made what I thought was a really smart film, a very self reflexive priest scream movie. It's kind of made true that made fun of itself. Yeah. And made fun of the idea of doing a sequel, but with a serious message. Like if we continue to blur the line between fiction and reality, pretty soon we won't know the difference. And guess what, in 2019 that is where we're at by the way. Um, so, so, and also there was the IPO craze back then. If you remember in the early and in 1999 and early 2000 every company was going public artists and all they cared about was their IPO. And so I went off, nobody, no executives were on the shoot. We all left the set thinking, who made a fantastic film about the dangers of blurring the line between fiction and Reality Inn at the 12th hour, some new mark. You know, I was literally doing the score. It's August of 2000 the movie's about to be released on three sounds, 3000 screens in six countries in October. It was like two and a half months away. I'm sitting with Carter Burwell, doing the final score of a finished movie. When I get a phone call, well, we've tested the movie and we have this new marketing executive and we think we need more murder, recreate. I'm like, what do you mean onscreen murders? The whole legacy of the Blair witch has everything happens off screen? No, no, we need this, we need that. And so reshoots were ordered, the movie was recut against my will that, and luckily that story was put out there. So people knew that[inaudible] to the movie. But um, and that's not to say my version of the movie would have fared better, but to, I mean, the movie got the worst reviews you could ever imagine. A personal attacks on me for ruining the franchise. I mean, it really set me into a big depression, depression of funk. Right? And that's not, that's not the same. My cut would have done better, but at least it would have been my cut, my version exist. It does. And I've begged line our first artists in that lion's gate's are released, the director's cut. But you know, and I, and I, I implore listeners out there, tell lion's gate to release the director's cut. Why wouldn't they do that? Well, there's clearance issues. They've got to find the negative, whatever the, you know, by the way, they released the second second Blair witch two years ago that did worse than mine in there. Like my, my movies, my movies considered this huge failure. But wait a second, it was a$10 million film that grossed$52 million worldwide and did 25 million on DVD when DVDs were still meant something. It was very profitable movie. But people say no, it was a failure. It was creatively mixed up. But I, if people watch Blair witch two and they imagine none of the Gore in the movie, none of the recreations of those were ordered after the fact and inserted. So any, any, any bloody scene take out. And the other big change they made was that at the end of the movie, in my version that's throughout the film, the, the, the, the Blair witch fans are interrogated by the police and it's intercut throughout the film. And I thought that was so stupid to do that because the intent was in the original script was that was the reveal at the w at the end of the movie we realize, no, no, those, it's the kids who did it. So why, why you doing this to wrap the movie? So, um, and there's a pre opening with Jeff Ray Donovan in a straight jacket. That was, they added that there's just so take out the straight jacket, pre opening, take out the gory scenes and take all the, the um, interrogation scenes that are sprinkled throughout the movie and rejoin them as one eight minute scene as the final reveal. Much like the final reveal in extremely wicked of that death row confrontation. The long scene a Blair witch had the same thing, but the studio intercut a throughout the movie. So again, that's not to say that my version of the movie would have done better, but at least it would have been my version. These are excellent instructions for the fan editors out there, but yes. Yeah. Do a new magnificent Ambersons re edit. And again, I'm not saying people would have liked it better, but at least you're being criticized about your movie, not somebody else's, not some committees movie. And really, but I'm thankful for having had my face mushed in the mud over that film because first of all, brothers keeper, Paradise lost, got some of the best reviews you could ever get for a movie. And so I was believing my reviews. And so if you validate your artistic existence by reading and believing in your reviews, then you'd have to validate yourself as a creative person when they're saying terrible things about you. And so that was my big lesson, you know, to not, even though it's hard to not care what people are thinking out there about your films. And I've made many controversial film does many people hate extremely wicked as love it. And they've gotten some very bizarre reviews in my opinion. And also some great reviews. I try to put that in a place now where it doesn't bother me. Of course, if you keep getting shitty reviews, it's a, it's a business issue. You know, maybe you won't get hired to make another film, you know, but we could talk about how rotten tomatoes is destroyed cinema. But we'll do that. We'll, we'll do that at another time because I actually think it's a serious problem that destroys all nuance of the discussing films. Um, but the good, the blessing, the great thing that came out of the failure of Blair witch two was the making of the Metallica movie, which was the greatest movie making experience I think I've had today cause he came out, it came at a time that I really needed the lessons of the Metallica movie. And you know, basically, I mean it's a long story too. We want to hear this story. Are we going to move on top of that? We're going to move on to other things, but basically things to do in a couple of days. Basically, the failure of Blair witch was, you know, I wasn't quite 40, but it was happening around when I was hitting 40. I was 40 was still a year or two away. But you know, basically the 40 thing was looming, right? Blair witch two was got horrible reviews. I took it all way too seriously. I curled up in a little ball, figuratively and metaphorically, um, at my home and my Home Office. Um, Bruce and I had gone our separate ways, but that's another long story. Um, which we can talk about in the sequel of this second in podcast too. Um, um, and I was really like, I felt directionless and felt like I just had the shit kicked out of me and I had, I mean, like in every language on the planet, there was bad reviews and fast, like you're an asshole. You fuck this up. So a better person. Right. But, but at one point in my lovely wife, Lauren, um, you know, we had young kids, very young kids at home, so like, I had to get back to work, you know, raise a family and Lauren came into my Home Office and said, enough of this watch, paradise lost. Here's paradise lost, watch paradise lost. Or remind yourself you're a good filmmaker and move on. And so I put on paradise lost. And as you know, the opening title sequence of Paradise lost is, is you know, uh, Metallica Sandman, uh, um, you know, um, over the air aerial footage, Robin Robin Hood Hills. And I'm like, yes, you're right Laura and I am a good filmmaker. I am going to get back. Seriously. I was like, I am going to end. The first thing I did is I called Lars. Oh Rick, the drummer of Metallica who had given us many Metallica songs for paradise lost, which was the first time a movie had ever gotten been given Metallica song up to that point. They had a policy of never giving music to films and they gave it to us for free because you know, people don't, people have not have forgotten that Metallica was actually the first celebrities to get involved with the West Memphis case because they believed our pitch when we said that heavy metal music is on, is on trial as much as these kids cause they're being convicted because with your lyrics. So you approached them with the idea like would you give us your music for this film? Oh yeah. Not It. While we were rough cutting it, we kept laying in Metallica music thinking we'd never get it and we just looked at each other. So we've got to figure out how to get it. So reached out to the band. By coincidence, the club, a guy named cliff Bernstein, who's the manager of the band, was a huge brother's keeper, fans love. And he said, Oh my God, I love brother's keeper. And so he, he made it and the band made it, made it all happen. So there was like, I knew the story, they understood how the music was being, well, they saw, they asked to see the rough cuts, so they saw the rough cut and agreed to let us use the music. So that started a friendship with me and the band and particularly, and I should say Bruce to of course, uh, particularly me and Lars, because Lars, if he wasn't a rock and roll drummer and the leader in one of the co leaders of the band, he would be a film producer because he loves film. And so he had said to us, you know, if you ever want to do a portrait of us, let us know. And you know, we just, it was just something we talked about but never happened because Bruce and I were kind of going our separate ways. I went off and did Blair witch two so cut to me getting off the floor and watching, watching that scene and in saying, yes, I'm so Lars was my first call. I said, hey Lars, you know, remember we talked about doing something is how about now? You know, and I, cause I said, you know, Blair witch did terrible and I just want to, I just want to forget about that part of my life and get back into documentary. And so Laura says, well, it's funny you should call. We're just about to go into the studio. We haven't made a record in five years. Why don't you call Electra, we'll get it all set up and liberally. And Bruce wasn't even part of it at first. I went out to San Francisco thinking I was doing 20 minutes of B role as kind of a corporate assignment paid for by a lecturer. I land, I call Lars. He said, Oh man, I forgot to tell you Jason, just get the band. I think the record's not happening. I don't think we're doing this. Management's hiring a performance coach to talk to us.[inaudible] sounds great. And I'm like, here, here we go. So somehow I found, I convinced them to allow me to film their first therapy session and it was just me and a camera and a sound guy. Bruce wasn't there yet and I had no idea what to expect. And I remember just thinking, you know, the universe has put me in this place filming this first therapy session between Lars and James at while the whole band, but in particular seeing Lars and James, these icons of male testosterone in an image heavy business, but in the most image conscious, uh, part of an image, conscious business, you know, the heavy metal guys talking about, they're feeling vulnerable. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my God, these guys are having the same kind of existential and creative crisis that I am currently going through. I don't know what this is going to turn into, but I can't believe the universe is putting me here. Allowing me to witness this though. Right? Just felt like I felt like, oh my God, this film was, you know, I don't know where it's going, but I just glad to be here. And then eventually I realized, you know, I called Bruce, I said, hey, this is what's happening. I know we had a bad breakup cause I kind of broke up with him because of, you know, it's hard to have a partner in every film, you know, I mean it's, and that's something we can talk about and some other time, but partnerships are hard. Oh yeah. And I had gone off to do Blair witch two and he was very offended and hurt. And rightfully so. In hindsight, I probably didn't handle it the right way. Um, and I recognize that in that moment listening to Lars and James, I recognized I didn't handle my, the breakup with Bruce Sinofsky the way I should have. So I invited him to be part of the movie and we spent the next three years making this movie and using the therapy sessions to like analyze and deal with our own relationship. And in a nutshell, the biggest problem was we were joined at the hip, the, the world thought after brother's keeper, Paradise lost. Well, I can only hire the two of you who's the, who's the filmmaker. And that made me very uptight. It's like I don't want to have my career dependent upon somebody else. I wanted to do my own thing. And so the therapy allowed us to work through our issues and allowed us to get to the point where we both realized, look, let's each have our own career and when it makes sense for us to come together, let's come together. And then it became a very healthy friendship and we worked through all of the kind of ego issues that collaboration and success brings. Yeah. And so the making of the Metallica film was very much about Bruce and I healing our friendship, figuring out a way to sometimes work together and sometimes not, which is healthier than always having to work together. And none of that would've happened with the, unless Blair witch two was a total worldwide belly flop. And so I actually, so I actually appreciate it gets a little unfairly maligned cause there was, I think it was being compared to the first phenomenon in the first film so much. I mean, well it's still think if you go back and watch it, that you still get a fun movie out of it. Yeah. It's not as bad as it's a little muddled. It's a little muddled if you, if you imagine no Gore recreation's and if you imagine the, the um, the, you know, the, the interrogation scene, not as one scene at the end of the movie, it's a better movie. But I still think some of the ideas about the dangers of blurring the line between fiction and reality is very, is very much there. Oh No. Blair witch for me. I mean, but you know, what I underestimated was just how much the fans, this is my mistake. The fans just wanted the mythology and the found footage, that's all they cared about. And I underestimated just how much people wanted that. To me it was like, how could you, how could you do the hoax again? But there's a whole thing called paranormal. People want that shit. Disbelieved yeah. So, so I underestimated that, but I still think the film, and it's also I underestimated, you know, I tried to bring, and I don't mean this this courteously to people who liked the genre, but I tried to bring some moralizing and some social commentary to a very genre horror movie. And I don't think people really wanted that, although Jordan Peele has done that brilliantly. So, you know, so it's, you know, but hey, it is what it is. You are like the parent telling people saying that clause doesn't make sense. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, there's a huge, and I mean there's a huge difference between making a documentary and working with actors. I imagine where you, was that an issue in how you feel about that film? Um, no, I think, you know, the thing is about, you know, the performance is the performances in that film were a little purposefully over the top because it was originally intended to be a satire. And when artists and re re edited the movie to make it be like a horror movie, a traditional horror movie, some of those performances were a little over the top. Um, you know, I look, I think, um, I mean if you want the working with actors is a very different part of the process versus documentary. But in some ways it isn't. My whole philosophy, for example, with extremely wicked and all of the actors. And then this sounds like I'm patting myself on the back, I'm just, which I'm not, but I'm just telling you, I'm telling you the truth. Let ed go ahead. Literally every act, every actor in their reps on that move me movie told me that this was the most collaborative, comfortable experience. I mean, look, Zach Efron's performance is being touted as like career changing. And so I'm very comfortable working with actors, but my, but I do it through a documentary lens, which is I am very collaborative. I, I feel like my job when shooting a scene with actors is to create something that feels real and authentic. And so I don't have a predetermined way of doing it. Like I'm very comfortable winging it. You know, you gotta walk, you gotta walk into your shoot day with a plan. Yeah. That it's not, this is not to say just wing it, you know, but allow the freedom of actors bringing their interpretation and color and it's very, there's a very collaborative, there was a very collaborative vibe on this set for extremely wicked. And my job as somebody who's done reality for 25 years is to say, okay, does that feel real? And to nudge it in different directions, but to ultimately be very collaborative and so, and make people feel like it's a safe place to experiment. And that's what, that's what people kept telling me repeatedly that, well, you can sense it because I think
Speaker 5:even the smallest role is memorable in extremely wicked. I mean, I was watching a prison might be in a for a minute, but I remember that, that thing, so you can tell that, you know, you know what you're doing with actors. So, and it's shot. I mean, I think it's a great film. I think, you know, we all calm talked about it before and we just think it's, I'm Zac Efron is great, but the whole movie start to finish work. I appreciate this guys. That's a good one. And that's after watching the documentary or documentary. So it was a great one. Two Punch.
Joe Berlinger:Yeah, let's talk about that because yeah, the door's open. Let's talk about Ted Bundy. I have a connection to Ted Bundy cause I grew up in Tallahassee and I grew up like blocks away from the Kyle Omega House. And so it was a major story when I realized you grew up in Tallahassee. Yeah. Big City within city. Boy that sounds good. But uh, yeah, so that was a big story for me. I knew people who, but of course you've probably found this out too when you're doing your research that, that uh, it's almost like going to Memphis and every, every place in Memphis is Elvis's favorite sign. Penguins. Everybody has abundant. Hundreds of people have reached out to me to say that they were also a victim of Bundy and explaining why. And I don't want to doubt I got away. I don't want to doubt people and I take everyone at face value. But there's just mathematically, the number of people who have told me that they were almost a Bundy victim and where, what the location was possible much growing up, you know, a status symbol. I was almost killed by Ted Bundy. I sold him his VW. You know, I know people that worked at a used car lot. He was like, I'm the guy who sold him that w you know, everybody's got a, a Bundy story in Tallahassee. Yeah. The movie's been the, you know, the reactions of the most people, especially people in the business, love the film and think that's really good. There's, but there's this, there's been this strain of criticism that I find so bizarre that you glorify that, that everything we're not doing is what we're being accused of tap dance. Like do damned if you don't know. It's like people are saying, how could you cast Zac Efron? He's charming. He's good looking. You're, you're, you're romanticizing him perfectly. Describe Ted. We're portraying somebody who pulled the wool over the, over the nation's eyes, over the legal system's eyes and over his victim's eyes. And because he was charming and good looking and that's what we're portraying for a new generation. Oh, there's nothing new in this movie will wait. Um, it's based on the girlfriend's memoir that been out of print for 20 years. And even if it, even if nothing is new, we're telling you for a new audience, you know, the first thing I did before I started either project was I called up each of my daughters who are 20 and 24 respectively who are, which means they're the prototypical Bundy victim age. And they both, you know, one of them is getting her phd and the other one is getting a college degree that they're both are going to excellent schools, no help from me. I'm saying all this because they're very smart, young women with on the rowing team, they're not. And then even pretend they're very smart, young women with lots of smart friends. And I said, hey, have you guys heard a Ted Bundy? And most of them, them and their friends had no idea who ted Bundy was or some place or some vague idea of, um, vague idea that he was a serial killer for me and for my daughter's generation, the lessons of Bundy can't be overstated just because somebody looks and acts a certain way, it doesn't mean they can be trusted. And that's a lesson I want my children to have. And that's kind of why I made these both projects. And Yeah. So, so for people to say, well, the story has been told, well, we're taking now for a certain segment of the population. Zac Efron can do no wrong. He's a teen heartthrob for my daughter's generation and he can do anything because of, uh, because of his persona. And so who better to illustrate the lesson that you can't trust somebody just because of how they look and feel and act then this person for that generation to whom the movie is for me really targeted to really savvy casting because you're already predisposed to like Zac Efron in the movie. Just like people who are predisposed to like Ted Bundy and not assume he had a bad side. Exactly. I remember the, the general thing in Tallahassee when the trials were going on, I remember a lot of people, and it's hard, it's hard to imagine this now, but I remember a lot of people back then saying, oh, he's, he, that guy have done, you know, they were just
Speaker 4:like, of course, get him, he's so smart. He's such a good long hair or what an amazing lawyer and he's so smart. How can somebody like that, you know, how did it happen? Because I don't know, whoever who's listening may not know that Joe did both the Ted Bundy tapes documentary and then also the extremely wicked movie, which was scripted. So how, why Ted Bundy? Like how did this come about besides the fact you want to teach your daughters a lesson?
Joe Berlinger:Um, you know, both, I wish I could say there was some grand master plan that I would have both of these things coming out at the same time. You know, it just sort of happened. Um, basically in January of 2017, Stephen me show who is the coauthor with you, Ainsworth of a book called conversations with a killer that came out several decades ago, which were his fine me show. And Ainsworth interviewed Bundy on death row and audio recorded those interviews and you know, the book came out in the pre digital age and did its thing and, but he reached out to me cause he was a fan of paradise lost interestingly. Um, and said, look, I just found all these audio tapes that the interviews were based on and I like your work. And do you think there is in this era of Netflix and streaming and Docu series, you think there's something there? And I said, well listen, the, the bar for Bundy is awfully high because there's been a lot done but send me the tapes, let me take a listen. And so I listened to the tapes and I was chilled and captivated and thought, yes, there is a new way to tell his story, which is through his, his unreliable narration. Because sometimes he's unreliable, sometimes he's not, you know, so you know, that's why, you know, it has to be contextualized with other interviews or whatever. But hearing from the killer, even, even when he's being unreliable, you're learning something. And so I thought it was a, like a remarkable way to retell his story for people who don't necessarily know the story. Um, and so pitched it to Netflix, they said yes, it's now about April of 2017 we're, we're deep into the tapes and figuring out what the show is. And I happened to be having lunch with my agent at CAA, guy named Michael Cooper and, uh, he's a true crime fanatic. One of the reasons he signed me as that he loves true crime and he's actually not really a director's agent. Um, I don't know. I don't know if this is interesting for people to hear this kind of detail, but he's mainly, he mainly represents talent actors, but I'm one of his few directing clients because he is a true crime, not so anyway, so we're sitting, having lunch and I'm just going on and on about the Bundy tapes and how fascinating they are. And he's an, a light bulb went off in his head, um, where he said, you know, there's a Hollywood blacklisted script called extremely wicked kicking around Hollywood that you should read now, the Hollywood blacklist for people who don't know our scripts, that executives and producers in Hollywood all really like, and for one reason or the other, it's been challenging to get them made. People don't want to pay for them or people think there's a problem. But as a read, people love the scripts. So it's on the Hollywood blacklist. And in fact, the script had won an academy Nichols prize and just couldn't, nobody could figure out how to away. In fact, Jodie foster at one point, was attached to direct a version of extremely wicked. So he sent he, you know, so I had no reason to think, you know, Hollywood blacklisted script that has had trouble getting made. I had no reason to think that me who did Blair witch two 20 years ago could snap my fingers and get the movie made. Are you scared when he forgot, uh, I can do this thing. Well, no, he wasn't even saying go make the movie. He said, here, go read this. You'll find this interesting. So, so I, I flew home and somewhere over Denver I texted him and said, Oh my God, I love the script because I love the way in. I loved seeing things from the girlfriend's point of view. I loved, you know, look, there's been a zillion movies about serial killers who kill, right? The, the prep, the depravity of violence is a well worn tire. There are great films that have been made and shitty ones that have been made about killing what hasn't been done, you know, so much because everything has been done. But, but what, what is fresher is making a film about the period in the serial killer, his life when he's not killing, but rather living his life and pretending to be something else and seeing it through the eyes of the one woman he didn't kill. To me it was just a fascinating way to make, to use the Bundy Story to talk about deception and betrayal and how these people get away with this kind of thing. Because in my 25 years of doing real crime, you know, we want to think people, evil doers are two dimensional monsters, but in real life, in real crime, you know, the people who do evil or the people you least expect in most often trust, whether it's a priest who commits pedophilia or a fossil fuel executive who, who denies climate change because they want to sell oil. That to me is compartmental idea. Yes. I'm sure they all have wonderful friends and people who love them and think they're great, but they're killing people. Yeah. The people who, uh, you know, the Sackler family involved in the creation of the worst, uh, opioid epidemic we've ever had, telling their sales force to repress the research that it's addictive. And, and selling doctors on the idea of prescribing these, these opioids for things that we used to get Tylenol fall for when we were kids. I'm sure these executives have wonderful family and friends and people who love them and they go to bed at night thinking they're wonderful guys, but that's compartmentalized evil. So the whole idea of how we act and how we betray and how we put on a mask to me was why I wanted to, why I gravitated towards the script. Um, but again, I had no reason to think it was gonna happen because it's was a tough script that nobody could figure out how to make. But I get on the phone the courtesy of my agent with the producer, a guy named Michael Costigan who held the rights and I said, well, the way I would do the film is to cause the original script. Michael were, we wrote a brilliant script. Much of it survives. The final version of the movie. So these are just tweaks. I'm giving him all the credit he deserves for writing a great script. But the original script dependent upon not knowing it's Bundy until the very end of the movie, and I, and I felt like on paper, that's a great read, but there's no way in real life can you cast a movie and put it out there and not have people know immediately. And sure enough, soon as Zack was cast, everyone knew was the Ted Bundy movement. You can't pretend it's Ted Bundy at the end of the year that you don't know it's Ted Bundy at the end until the end of the movie. So my suggestion was let's not be afraid of that. Let's lean into it. Let people, everyone know that it's Ted Bundy cast somebody who is going to be so charming and likable that the audience knows it's a movie about a serial killer. But because of his charm and the interaction between Lillian, Zack is so strong that you, you start rooting for that relationship and suspend the intellectual knowledge that it's a serial killer because that's what they did in real life. Right? That's how they get away with it. That's why the members of the Mormon Church showed up at his Utah trial saying, this can't be, this can't be the killer. We, you know, this is crazy. Um, so my first suggestion was to lean in to the Bundy, not avoided until the end and also the, because Bundy was avoided until the end in the original draft. It had a much lighter catch me if you can tone to it. And I felt like in this day and age, you even still the F my movie, which I think is very dark, people have criticized the tone as being somehow glamorizing of bundle. But the original draft would have even would have been crucified. And so I said, you know, the movie needs to go much darker. That was my idea, to integrate real archival footage and to, and to be more specific about some of the terrible things Bundy did. So, you know, make it more real, make it darker and lean into the fact that we know it's Bundy. Right from the start were were, were the notes. I gave this producer and he said, great, let's try it. So now the script has been in my life for about three weeks, right? In my mind, I've taken the first couple of baby steps for something that may be in three or four years. I'd be lucky enough to direct because putting independent movies together takes forever. And, but the next week, first week of May, a CAA is having its weekly meeting of agents, agents where they kind of share with their clients are doing. And my agent said, hey, Joe is thinking of taking on extremely wicked. Zach Ephron's agent was at that because acts at CAA and said, hey, Zach's thinking about doing something different. You want him to read the script, which is a considered thing. When you know at somebody at Zach Efron's level, when you say, do you want to read the script? It's called a reading offer. So when he reads it, if he says yes, you have to use him soon. So it's not, it's not just, hey, read the screen. I had to think for a minute. Oh wait, do I want Zach? No, that's a, that's a brilliant idea. You know, because you know, he's playing with his teen heartthrob image. The fact that he was willing to take like a 99% pay cut to do the movies suggested is very serious about it. So sure that read the script. To his credit, he read it immediately. We got on the phone, had a great conversation. And so the producers that, do you mind if we take it to can, and I'm like, wow, this is going way too bad. So, so they took it to Ken and they literally sold the movie the first weekend. Wow. Um, with, for a very small budget, people think there's a big budget movie. It was small. I can't say exactly the number, but it would surprise you how small the budget wise. Um, but, um, that all happened in the span of six weeks from the moment I read the script at the moment it was a green lit movie. So, so the fact that they both happened at the same time, you know, was again a coincidence. Luckily when Lily, who was also my first choice further, um, Liz role when she said yes, she couldn't start until January instead of the original October. Zach also had a commitment. So we were able to push enough that the documentary got to be in pretty good shape editorial editorially wise before I then shifted and started shooting the movie in January of 2018 and the team in New York on the dock kept continuing, you know, finishing the dock while I shot the movie. And it was great to have the two things happening at the same time because like department heads on the movie could call my doc team in New York for photo references. And that's why I, you know, I'm very proud of the film is very authentic looking. Um, and we had all sorts of help from the dock and making things like, you know, look real and you know, the period details. Yeah. Top notch, really. So Nice. And then the other question, you know, so originally the extremely wicked was supposed to be done in time for Toronto and Netflix hadn't yet decided when they were going to broadcast the Bundy tapes and quite independently of both. And by the way, Netflix was not involved in extremely wicked until Sundance. In fact, they knew I was doing the movie but didn't have an interest in it because they, they wanted their Bundy project and considered the movie to be another Bundy project. So by the time, uh, so we didn't finish in time to submit to Toronto. So we submitted to, which I didn't want to, anyway, I found it was a Sundance movie. So we, we submitted, uh, extremely wicked to Sundance and got in meanwhile Netflix and we decided the best time to air the documentary was January 24th, which is the 30th anniversary of Bundys execution. It also happened to be the first day of Sundance. So, strangely enough, we got accepted the Sundance, Netflix premiers, the Bundy tapes, the first night of Sundance. I mean, having nothing to do with Sundance. That was the night. The doc series immediately like took off globally. It was like the number one global trend on Twitter. Immediately everybody was talking. So people that Sundays were talking about, well wait a sec, I find he's got a movie here. What's going on? It was very confusing. It was confusing, but it drove people into the premiere. And that's when Netflix said, oh, wait a sec. So we had other offers for distribution, but Netflix realized it's, you know, it would be good to have both. Right. And I thought it would be great to have both because they did such an amazing job on the cause. If this one out of the, you know, as a traditional theatrical film, not sure in this environment how it would do, but Netflix, you know, they deliver eyeballs like, yeah, like nobody's business. And in fact, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but, um, um, it's the third biggest opening weekend Netflix has had for any of their original movies. Movie an insane, I can't, I'm not sure I'm allowed to say the number and insane number of people have seen the movie now on Netflix. It's so cool. Yeah. And the doc series, according to Nielsen is the second highest rated series scripted or unscripted that Netflix has done second only to the second season of stranger things. But it's fine. So, uh, I, I hope I haven't gotten in trouble for saying those things. So they're very guarded about numbers. But both of the 10 billion or something to somebody about Netflix and Bundy that really worked. Yeah. Worked globally
Speaker 4:well for some reason. It's like when I saw, first of all, I love the, it's not a trick, but I the the sort of dovetailing of the dock and the scripted film, I love how the documentary, I thought I knew Bundy, but then when I watched it, the wrist, so much stuff I didn't know like how, how many women and how short a time, you know how so you got all of his background. So when you then go to the film, you already know all you need to know about what was going on[inaudible] side of the other films. So I liked that you're watching it, knowing in your head from the documentary, this is why he's doing here this way he's doing here, but you're not showing it. Yeah. And I like how we get to see the, like you said, like the, the manipulation and the charm and kind of rooting for him and the counter romance. And you're Kinda like, I know this is not right for me to be rooting for Ted Bundy, but I'm proud I am. And I'd like that.
Joe Berlinger:What's, you're not rooting here. But here's the thing, because people say that as a criticism all you're really not occurred by the end of the, by the end. No, no, I know you don't need it. But some people are using that. They are motion as a criticism. But that's exactly the mode I want people to by the end of the movie, to feel the same. Because I hope by the end of the movie, when he admits what a horrible person he is, you're not rooting for him. Right. You know? No, that was totally know. And so and so and so. I want people, I want the audience, particularly people who don't know the story, who kind of like thinking, well, maybe he is innocent. Yeah. And by the end of the story, I want the audience to feel the same level of betrayal and discuss that Liz feels sure that they can say to themselves, oh my God, I'm sick to my stomach. That I actually was rooting for that guy because what better way to portray the impact that these psychopaths have on you when you believe them? That's what I thought was
Burk:brilliant about it cause weight by saving it for the end. Like just that photo. I felt like I was like kicked in the stomach when I saw it. I was like, whoa. And then his expression like saving like used to feel like you saw a brief flicker of who he really was. That was so chilling and I thought that's exactly what we needed to learn about Bundy. Every time you hear about Monday til some of these rotten tomatoes idiot. Because when you hear about Bundy, everybody goes, how? How did he do it? How did he have to get away with it? A movie I think kind of shows you this is how he did it because that's who he meant. It made you believe.
Joe Berlinger:Is that what that is? Or how does a priest get away with committing? Parents are exactly the same old day mass the next day. You know? I mean that's, well the best oil
Burk:[inaudible] film, literature, drama and reality are the ones that you look at and you go, wow, it kind of makes a point. He kind of, you know, he kind of hasn't a good point. And then you, and then you think about it a little bit more and you're like, no, he's just making a point. He doesn't really have a point. You know, this whole thing about the, the people who get away with crimes because they, they explained that it's for the better, you know, it's the end justifies the means kind of thing. But with people like Bundy, you're looking at him thinking, you know, he got away with this strictly on his good looks. His charm is manipulate people. It was a tool in his toolbox is, you know, and that I think, um, the important lessons there people, none of these people, no matter how horrible killer, and they are, they're not monsters. They're people. No, they're not. They're not movie villains. They can be good looking and charming. Well, you know,
Joe Berlinger:living through this in the 70s, I remember seeing the news reports coming, how can this guy be this and what they're saying, it just didn't work. So that's the, that's the feeling you get when watch the film. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's why the film works is because it shows that aspect of it. Instead of just portraying Bundy as this horrible monster killer and showing the killings, all the criticism that we're glorifying by not showing the killings just blows me away because the movie talks about the aftermath of violence throughout the whole movie. In the 16 millimeter home movies we see the, you know, the first disappearance is folded in during the trials. We hear about the APP, but we don't actually show the killings. But to me and the, and the criticism, look, a lot of people love the movie and having criticized it, but a lot of people have criticized that aspect. And to me, and particularly they say it's disrespectful to the victims that you're glossing over the killings. And to me it's like just the opposite. The Wa, the most disrespectful thing could do to a victim of a horrible crime is recreate their worst moment of existence. And in it, we live in an era where an eight or nine year old with a few keystrokes can come upon the most degroot degrading pornographic or violence or violently pornographic imagery that if I was a parent of a young child right now, a boy in particular, I'd be horrified and about what's available for people to see and how that warps your perception of normal human sexual relationships. And so like why would I load a movie up with violence because then you wouldn't buy the, you become just as we just as we have been in society, we've become so numb to violence because we see it so much. I think if you were watching the movie and and that final scene where she, she holds up the photo and we see the brief recreation of the one crime she's asking about if we had seen 25 killings up to that point, there'd be no emotional impact. You know, you become numb to it. And also I think it's respectful to the victims because you're showing that it was, that they weren't stupid. Exactly. They weren't stupidly being pulled in by somebody who's obviously a bad guy. They were, they were being, you know, you can understand why somebody would like this guy. Exactly. The sort of six side of me did want to see a little more because I just wanted to see how Zac Efron would do that as I want to see him actually do a murder to see can you do it? But I think we saw enough of it. I think it was enough, but I thought it was, it was a very well, I mean, and I feel like Bundy, we needed a like a well made emotional film about him. There's a lot of trashy ones about, he went there and I feel like now we finally have a really good smart movie about him. Yeah. Well thank you. And we know the guy that made it and there's a guy we're talking to me this really cool movie about Ted by, so please check it out if you have Netflix. I think you've probably already seen it though. All of our viewers, since everyone is the highest rated Netflix thing ever. What's next for you? Joe Finds a sandwich. I have no more, no more serial killer as a for team finding out a little Bundy. That AC movie here. Isn't there one more Bundy project you can buy finger. I'm a little bundle. You know, I'm, I'm in a, I'm in a reset mode trying to figure out what's the next thing is I, you know, I've been working a lot for 25 years. I was tired. A little tired, but there'll be other things. I don't know specifically what yet, but a couple of things in the pipeline. We look forward to it. Yeah. Well, so great talking to you. Thanks so much for letting those, tying in to how you're going to cut this hour and 20 rambling conversations.[inaudible] it up a little bits and areas that we can do any likely wants. True to what we want because we're rebels to, yeah. Cool. Well let's do it again. Yeah, we will. Thanks so much for sitting down with us all the course and talking about this. This was, this was fun. Can we to you again at some point if we want to bring you back and anytime, anytime if your, if your listeners will have me, I, I'm a bit, oh they'll have you know, a bit long winded as you've seen. We're going to force you on. That's what this show is all about. One thing we have to ask, there's something that we always do at the end of an interview. We always do. This is a podcast about movies and the effect of movies on your, on your life and your love of movies. What are the films that inspired you to be involved in film making? Top fill in favor? You know, they run the gamut. I'm a huge cast of Eddie's fan. So most early Cassavetes you know, cause in many ways what Cassavetes was trying to do with um, scripted films is the inverse of what Bruce and I felt we were trying to do with documentary. You're trying to put, we trying to push documentary into a more scripted realm. Not in the sense of scripting I should say narrative realm. We were trying to push documentary into a more narrative realm. While Cassavetes was trying to, was one of the pioneers of, you know, trying to give us a narrative film, kind of that in the present narrative feel. So I'm a huge cast of Eddie's fan ad living, um, you know, all the classic verite salesman, Grey Gardens, gimme shelter, um, you know, all those films. I love gimme shelter is my favorite horror film of all time. It is not, it's an amazing film. Um, you know, and then like I'll be boring and just say like, Godfather, apocalypse now, you know, I'm not boring. I mean, you know, you know those films or you know, um, yeah. And I know people don't want to, you know, speak the name of Woody Allen, but you know, there's a lot of woody Allen films that I find very inspiring and I'm not somebody who says you have to reevaluate an artist's career because of allegations. It's like remade the films. And if you like them 10 years ago and they did something for you, yeah, you shouldn't be embarrassed by that. I still love Manhattan, you know? Oh yeah, it's about the art, you know, start us. Memories for me is just the all time. Great. Great. Great. What, um, and I, there's lots of films I love. It's hard to picture. Those are good ones. That's cool. That's a good collection right. There. Some inspiration for people that might not have heard of the cast of Eddie's films. Those are, those are not in faces as much as they should be. Yeah, yeah. Facing, they're all, I mean, just get the collection. You can get the box set. They're all saying that. The other thing I saw recently that just, it sounds like what, but um, Robert drew in 1961 did to, Phil did three, I think two or three films with John F. Kennedy, uh, one is called crisis, which is about the integration crisis. You know, um, basically cameras were with Robert Kennedy, John Kennedy and governor Wallace and Wallace was trying stop the integration of the University of Alabama. And you know, that famous walk where the, you know, the, the, uh, black students are walking to, you know, enter the university. Um, but the film was made about it at a time when people didn't understand what making a film was, where the, you know, access was amazing and authentic. Um, so Robert root did that. And also, uh, Kennedy's primary and the movie's called primary. Yeah. And, and it's the Robert drew collection. I watched them recently cause amazing. And those are just fascinated. Beautifully shot. You've seen those. Yeah. I'll have to see those. I have not seen this. Yeah. Excellent. Cool. Well, there you go. That's my list. And don't hate, don't hate me because I still like woody Allen films. I still like them to make guilty. Gotcha. Thanks for joining us. Okay, we're going to go out the door now. Cinema Hondo signing off.
Speaker 2:[inaudible][inaudible].