First Cup of Coffee - April 12, 2024

A special podcast today with fabulous author of fantasy, science fiction, and horror: Kelly Robson! We talk about the definition of fantasy vs. other SFF genres, tone, theme, choosing subgenre, and the difference between writing novels and shorter works.

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Transcript

00:03.47
Jeffe Kennedy
Good morning everyone this is Jeffe Kennedy romantasy author of epic fantasy romance I'm here with my first cup of coffee and I am here at Eastern New Mexico University with my very good friend Kelly Robson 

Kelly Robson
hello good morning. Good morning. What do you write Kelly I write science fiction fantasy and horror. Um, short fiction mostly novellas ah, and um I am working on novels and finding that novels are a completely different skill set but novels are hard. Oh sword. So today is to say it with me people. It is Friday you have to do the chair dance. Do we? Yeah there you go all right April Twelfth and so many thanks to Jon Barr having us here recording in this very fancy new studio that the students get to use here at Eastern New Mexico University Kelly and I are here in town for the Jack Williamson lectureship and going to be doing all sorts of fun events. What panels are you on today. Kelly. Um I am on a plotting panel. Ah, which I'm really looking forward to because I think about plotting in ways that other people don't um, so I'm not looking forward to actually looking forward to contradicting everyone.

01:31.28
jonbarr
So That's gonna be fun. Um, and the other one is I believe it is a sexy sexy panel with you with me. Okay, yeah, all right I I Just remember there's like something in Science Friction. Yes, yes, So so that's that's interesting because I don't write sex scenes that often. But when I do write them. They are very plot relevant. So um, yeah, Well I mean I would say that I'll also write Plot relevant. Wow I mean are we going to already start fighting. Oh um, yeah, right? So What did I mean by that I guess I meant that Like. Do you mean by that do you I mean by that. Um I guess I mean by that is I am not a romantasy writer. Um, so sex scenes are not um, a given in the stories that I write whereas I believe that. Romantasy writers pretty much have to um, have to their characters are in Love. They're going to have sex although they may not have sex on screen right? That's why I was going to say it could be closed door could be yeah fluttering window curtain. That's right The the two cigarettes in cigarettes the train going into the tunnel. Yes, So um, yes, so when I use sex scenes. Um, it's not maybe not for the same reasons that a romantic see writer would so so what reasons to you? ah.

03:06.66
jonbarr
That's a good question. Well like you you explore themes of queerness and people belonging or not belonging. That's I do I guess um often what I am right when I write a sexy that's ah often for. Economic advantage my first um, most maybe my most famous published stories called waters of versailles and it opens with the sex scene and it is set in the court of versailles of Louis the fifteenth and my main character is a. Man's a man woman's man man about town who is um, having sex for economic advantage with a woman of influence in the court right? and he is having stress about performing performing um adequately performing impressing her shall right? yes. Of fulfilling his given duty. Yes, that's right? Yes, so so it's sort of it's I wouldn't call it exactly a segue but 1 of the things I wanted to talk about with you today because you do write science fiction and fantasy and horror and we've been. We did a long car ride on the way here toured Kelly through Southern New Mexico beautiful beautiful oh so gorgeous. Yeah, we drove through white sands and riodozo and dodged around roswell we didn't actually get you to see the aliens damn it I know we can.

04:40.55
jonbarr
Um, the way Back. We could go see Aliens in roswell, we totally could because you've written Aliens I have written aliens might yeah my aliens um generally have been um, not embodied ah not embodied as things people would see as people. But often as Bacteria or yeah, something like that you had your space whales. Oh That's true. Yes I did have the space whales right? And that's one does as one does the space whales that people have colonized and are living inside and um. Which is ah a trope of science fiction of course very common trope. It's not like I invented it. But um, yeah, and then in that Story. There's a question as to whether the whales are sentient or not and it's a question that should come up in the reader's mind.

05:34.00
jonbarr
But never comes up in the minds of the people who are exploiting the whales. So yeah, what's where we don't admire them for that. Well you know it's ah people human beings are colonizers. Oh if there is a habitat we will move into it. So um. Yeah I Want to argue with you on that. But I don't think I can you can't you can't people live in the arctic I can't if I want to you can argue with me I will let you are anything but what I actually want to talk about is the definition of fantasy Yes, Because. We were talking about. You know, like various kinds of award categories and that sort of thing and deciding like whether or not a book goes into science fiction or whether it goes into fantasy or whether it goes into horror and I think and and we could talk about Romanticy a little bit too that way because. There are also a furious conversation going on right now of like what books count as romanticy, you know and like does it, you know and we talked about that romanticy it could be a reader pushback against y a fantasy because. Books with romance or books written by women or centering female characters tend to get shoved into y a and people are tired of it and and one of my responses when people try to draw me into genre definition conversations is that it's to some extent immaterial. You know it's they're they're like false.

07:04.84
jonbarr
Lines that we are drawing around like where to put it on a shelf. Yeah, their' marketing categories their marketing categories quite frankly, you know every ah piece of fiction written before say two hundred years ago was fantasy in some way or another right right. Like people push back on the term speculative fiction which people try to use to avoid calling it science fiction or fantasy. But then there's always the P Dan who says well all fiction is speculative. Yeah, whatever. Um.

07:42.10
jonbarr
So I would say I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a definition then I'm I'm gonna actually argue against it. Okay so I would say that the definition of fantasy is a story that takes place and with elements that are outside our consensus reality. Okay, so say that again a story that takes place. With element or a story with elements that are outside our consensus reality so you would distinguish that from science fiction because I would make the argument that science fiction is also fantasy. Okay, so then how do you if I say. Kelly should I put my book on the science fiction self shelf or the fantasies shelf. How do you decide I think it's a matter of tone on matter of tone and setting and vibes vibes vibes. Um I wrote.

08:38.16
jonbarr
A novella which is considered hard science fiction because I use a lot of environmental science is that lucky peach lucky peach god's monsters in the lucky peach where um, ah environmental scientists travel back in time to do. And environmental status review or environmental um a past state review at that baseline to get that baseline that baseline of um of an ecosystems state at that baseline point and um. But what they are dealing with are people who look at them and see monsters. So from the perspective of ah the people 4000 years in the past who they're meeting like it's not science fiction. They want to have an understanding of a science that. We consider to be a science right? because like 1 of the characters has appendages has yeah kind of cybernetic they're they're all, um, physically different in some way right? Yeah, so it's a science fiction novel because I'm using science terms. But I'm also using time travel which is has what time travel is zero. What basis category in physics reality like people can ah fool around with it. It's it's a great brain exercise for some physicists who you know have published lots of information about how time travel can theoretically work. But yeah, it's just.

10:11.58
jonbarr
Let's it's still magic. Never going to happen. It's magic. Yeah, and time travel stories tend to get thrust into fantasy category. 1 of my if I don't really have pet peeps but I would say if I have if I have a gripe. It's that fantasy ends up being kind of the catchall category. For like what you know like so and and people on the podcast have heard me rant about this before ah that you know like outlander gets put into fantasy. But really, it's has 1 single magical element. Yeah, which is the time time time. So it's really it's historical fiction. It's it's historical fiction. Yeah, um, and alternate histories get thrust into fantasy too. You know, kind of like um lions of uversson am I saying it right? Lions Walversson yeah sure or um Harry turtledom's work. Yeah, um, yeah, all that stuff. So so if we go back to your definition about the consensus reality. Yeah, that stories that have elements that diverge from consensus reality. So then it's fair to put time travel in there. Ah absolutely ok yeah, um. Well I would say yeah I mean all all um, science fiction. All horror is fantasy right? It's all fantasy. So there's a reason why fantasy is the catchall is that it is the overarching.

11:47.99
jonbarr
Genre right? It is the genre you know and 1 thing that's funny, slightly aside to that. But when like the random person on the airplane or whatever asks me what I write. Yeah and I will say I kind of give a different answer depending upon the person asking you know it's like how much do you Are we having a conversation or not yeah books yeah books I write books novels I often I will say I I say I'll say I'm a novelist and then but anyway, yeah, anyway, um, a lot of times if I say I write fantasy, especially if they hear. Any kind of romance attached to it or just looking at me the men apologies John the men will often do the ho ho what kind of fantasy but it's like not the one running to your head right now. Honey. Okay. Because that's a different kind of fantasy and yet the same kind right? Yeah yeah, definitely um, something really brilliant. Just went through my head and I completely lost it. Oh we'll see photos or it didn't happen I we need for seats.

13:03.59
jonbarr
It's true. Um, so fantasies. You know the the idea of the fantasy imagining the thing that does not exist. Yeah, the thing that diverges from consensus reality. Yeah, but then when we start to pare down inside of. You know, like the the sort of the great big lumping that people will do is say that in a fantasy world things occur via magic in a science fiction world. They occur via technology yeah right yeah even if that technology is completely fantasy. Right? right? So it's the lingo that you use. Yeah, um, often. Um, it ah, this is arguable and especially arguable to a romanticy writer. Um, people have ah tried to define or tried to make the separation between science fiction of a fantasy. People I'm saying people I'm saying people at conventions at cons people on Panels we've been having this discussion for decades and it's still interesting. Yeah yeah, ah that um science fiction has optimistic outlook not lately. But places is what we have said has an optimistic outlook and fantasy is more of a melancholy outlook. Um, and I don't think that that's true I don't think that's true at all and I don't especially don't think it's true anymore, right? Especially since I mean in the last 10 like if we're talking George R Martin were like.

14:35.60
jonbarr
Far and scale of Melancholy Outlook yeah but very melancholy. Yeah, yeah, but what's okay so what has happened there's a couple things have happened one of the things that has happened is in traditional publishing at least. In order to be considered a serious book. It has to be dark. That's why we have all of these all of these dystopias right? and people um, calling things dystopias that aren't really dystopias because we're expecting everything to be a dystopia. Yeah and this is our um. And I believe that it is it is the fault of of of our bestseller publishing mentality right? where um to that every every book must have the potential to be a blockbuster right? and to be a blockbuster. It must be serious and it must be dark then must say important which is um. Yeah, well and and it's not just our medium either. You know, like there's always the conversation about how like ah comedies never win. Best picture at the Oscars Absolutely yes, right? We we have this human nature thing where we only think sad things are are yeah worthy significant yeah and it's not true. Right? It's not true because comedy is such a great way of exploring difficult things right? Um, one of so you know my wife Alex yes, Alex's favorite example of this is Austin powers the first awesome paris oh right? Where like he goes to some pretty fucking.

16:08.23
jonbarr
Excuse me can I swear on this pod. You can especially deep into the podcast regular listeners know that I've been trying not to because ever since I monetized youtube makes me put in there like whether or not I've used foul language but it's it's like within the first few minutes oh okay so good. Good good. Um. Just some fucking dark places right? He's lost he he comes back to life in the middle of the aids epidemic. He lost people in his life. He's lost his culture. He's lost his world right? Um, and that's. That's dark and that's really interesting, but it's still you know a brilliant brilliant comedy that most of us love I adore well and and now I'm thinking of this movie because I hadn't thought about it in these terms but you know it's it's a classic fish out of water story too where I love fish out of water. Yeah, and he's gone from. But we could talk about tropes although we don't have tons of time left. But um, he you know goes from a place where he is celebrated and you know like man about town and the shaguar and all of this kind of thing and then when he wakes up in this totally different era. He is. Ridiculous, yeah yeah, and mocked and mocked. It's sad. Yeah, yeah, so and you can't do that. You can't hit those same notes. It's much more difficult to hit those same notes if if you start out with a serious tone right? It has so much more um impact because we're starting out joyous and frivolous like.

17:41.56
jonbarr
Beginning where they have like the musical you marching down the street like it's just it's glorious like I could watch that on loop for my entire life and live a happy life like it's just so fun and then when we get dark, um right? The contrast is great. So. So let's go back because you just mentioned tone again. So Lia like comedy the tone of like what it sets and you and I've been talking about you know, like the tone you said beginning and the tone you leave the reader with at the end the the vibe the feeling. So what is the tone vibe feeling difference between. Fantasy and science fiction.

18:21.44
jonbarr
Because you said that that was one of the definers for you? Yeah Science fiction tends to be cold Cold. So Metallic Cold Cold Metallic Stark Um, not a lot of nature. Um. Like we're just talking stereotypes now right right? whereas? Um, when I write fantasy because I write them all I write all of these genres. Um, and I love writing all of the genres because it's it's like having a full palette of colors to choose from right? Well and we were talking about this that most writers when we write a story. We don't know what a what genre it is to begin with because we're just like we're telling the Story. We Want to tell? Yeah, yeah, that's true. Ah, so you're choosing your your palette. You're like well what are you choosing your palette when I write fantasy I have such a fewer a freer hand with metaphors. Because I can reach for nature metaphors and I can reach for craft metaphors and I can reach for homey metaphors and it's so much more difficult when I write Science fiction because there isn't that um, fully sensual world to draw on the fully sensual world Of. Um, you know life on Earth in the dirt to to pick my metaphors from and to pick my images From. So Do you use metaphors like living in a space whale or do you just sort of stay away from it I Guess I stay away from those images. Yeah yeah.

19:55.30
jonbarr
Um, is it's It's much more difficult. It's hard to analyze your own thing too. So yeah, but yeah, yeah, because some of what you do is by Instinct but that's advice that I give to newer writers all the time when they talk about that We could talk a little bit about writing. Why writing Novels is hard and I think that would be useful for people to hear about your experience. But um, you know like people that there are ways in which it never gets easier but also gets totally easier because it's like the driving a car. You know, like after a while you don't have to think about turning on your blinker or what gear you're in or you know where's the accelerator and where's the brake. You can just drive the car and think about where you're going So you you internalize a lot of the rules for writing in a way that when you're a newbie writer you think through. Every single thing. Yeah yeah, but then each book is its own challenge or each story is its own truth. It's its own challenge and you're always trying to get better right? Ah so that's hard because you're you're tackling more and more difficult problems more and more difficult effects that you want to try and achieve. Right? Like I like I have so a few stories in the back of my mind that I'm sort of been holding until I have the chops to write them right? right? right? and um and you have and and you're going by instinct there you you feel that you don't have the chops to write them and I have I have list of those stories as well.

21:21.33
jonbarr
Yeah, that I can't tackle this now I'm not ready for it and I haven't done enough thinking about it. It hasn't been baking in the back of my head for long enough. Um, but the other thing is is that you once you are an experience writer. You get a little bit overconfident. You forget? Yes to wait for that inspiration for that that you can feel like a failure because you haven't had the brilliant stroke your brain hasn't coughed up that brilliant stroke that you know will come but you feel like you can force it and you can't right. I think that also hooks back into what we were talking about and I've talked a lot on this podcast about that you know breaking the stress cycle the burnout book ah having the expectations of yourself where you think I've written you know 27 stories before this should be easy. Yeah. And then when it's not easy that can really mess with you. Yeah, you think I've lost it I've lost the old Mojo I've lost the old magic the old Mojo yeah, so yeah, you can lose your confidence I guess yeah and it's stressful. It is stressful. So speaking of. Would you tell us a little bit about because you've written so many short stories I don't know how many? Ah yeah in the 20 s yeah twenty s ed and you've been working on writing a novel and you and I've been talking about that some yeah how is writing a novel different. Oh. It's such a marathon. Yeah jeffvia just.

22:53.47
jonbarr
Just goes on and on and on and and I have written novels before and they take a such a long time at that point. Um I wasn't writing full time I have the luxury right now of writing full time. Um not which is why you were like. Going to write a novel now because I have all yeah this time to concentrate? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. It'll be great, but also so it's a marathon and while you are running this marathon life is happening to you why people are getting sick in your life. Um. Ah, you have to have your cap put down you um, have to marryy your mom. You have all of these terrible things you're writing this novel for six months a year not every race as quickly as cheffy. Um, and and that is because. And you you write quickly because you have published like 67 novels or something. Well, it's um, like 42 novels but 65 published titles. So yes point. Yeah, ok, still right? I've written a lot of novel I've written a lot of novels. So you know there's a reason why you can write a novel and through yes yeah, um.

24:05.82
jonbarr
So yeah, so you're writing a novel for six months you're writing a novel for year're writing a novel for 2 years or longer There are so many terrible things that are going to happen to you while you're doing that and it's going to knock you off kilter right? Um, even if like me right now I have the luxury of writing full time right? still. Had a lot of deaths in the family. Um, and especially Jeffie and I have been talking about how yeah these ah emotional turmoil can really knock you off your game right? So um. Jeffie Jeffie's advice to me as as we have been talking about this over the last twenty four hours or so is is um is is from Neil Gaiman it's ah laying bricks laying the writing novels like laying Brooks and you just have to get your but in the chair and layce some bricks every day. Yeah, and that sometimes it's backbreaking and unsatisfying. Yeah, and you're just sitting there amidst a pile of bricks. Yeah, but what's great about writing short stories is that they can be equally painful. You can feel equally at sea equally as as. As as stymied by it but only for you know a few weeks at a time right? Yeah and then and then you have this beautiful, gorgeous new baby to send out for you know to to submit for publication right? So writing short fiction very gratifying.

25:32.63
jonbarr
And writing long fiction. Maybe not so much although I do think because it's it's certainly a a longer ah a longer road in. But then I I feel like there's a longer tale with novels too for sure that there are. Rewards on the other end right now it exists in a longer timeframe. Yes, it I was is true if you would disagree with me. No I totally agree with you. Yeah and it um it is it. It. It is a considered a more significant achievement. By your peers to write a novel than to publish rightly or wrongly. But yeah, well, it's a bigger thing. It's everybody knows how much work goes into a novel as opposed to a short story. Um, or how much time and buttons sweat and tears and yeah, interesting. Um, nobody I hope nobody is gonna like work 5 years on 1 short story.

26:25.87
jonbarr
Right? because that something seriously wrong there. Okay y allall heard it from Kelly if you're working 5 years on the same short story stop it.

26:36.59
jonbarr
Ah, ah, all right? Well, we've gone slightly long but this has been a great conversation. Thank you for being here today. Thank you John for hosting us here and I will you might do podcasts with me on Monday we'll be back up in Santa Fe but we can continue. Continue the conversation in our much lower production value environment but you know hey all right? So hope everyone has a wonderful weekend and you all take care bye bye.