In the new episode of Lost and Sound Paul gets deep into conversation with DJ and producer, Simo Cell. With his debut album Cuspide des Sirènes creating waves, Simo talks about his artistic process, musical journey, his UK Bass influences, and the transformative experience of birthing a full-length album.
The Paris based DJ reveals the art of harnessing different genres and the importance of 'playing with silence' to let the sounds naturally emerge. Then, around 40 minutes in it all takes a twist, their conversation delves deep into the philosophical realm as Simo talks about his encounter with Eckhart Tolle's teachings and his tryst with enlightenment. We probe into his experiences with panic attacks, the therapeutic powers of The Power of Now as well as the concept of the spiritual bypass and his thoughts on self-reflection and context awareness.
Simo Cell’s debut 'Cuspide des Sirènes’ is available now on TEMƎT Music
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Subscribe to the Lost and Sound Substack for fresh updates and writing here.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
In the new episode of Lost and Sound Paul gets deep into conversation with DJ and producer, Simo Cell. With his debut album Cuspide des Sirènes creating waves, Simo talks about his artistic process, musical journey, his UK Bass influences, and the transformative experience of birthing a full-length album.
The Paris based DJ reveals the art of harnessing different genres and the importance of 'playing with silence' to let the sounds naturally emerge. Then, around 40 minutes in it all takes a twist, their conversation delves deep into the philosophical realm as Simo talks about his encounter with Eckhart Tolle's teachings and his tryst with enlightenment. We probe into his experiences with panic attacks, the therapeutic powers of The Power of Now as well as the concept of the spiritual bypass and his thoughts on self-reflection and context awareness.
Simo Cell’s debut 'Cuspide des Sirènes’ is available now on TEMƎT Music
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Subscribe to the Lost and Sound Substack for fresh updates and writing here.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica. Audio Technica are global but still family run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones, studio quality yet affordable products, because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. And I'm speaking to you right now wearing the M50X headphones. They're for the studio, they're for everyday. I speak to all my guests wearing these headphones, but whatever way you like to listen, head on over to AudioTechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to Lost and Sound. I'm Paul Hanford, I'm your host, I'm a writer and author based in Berlin, where I'm speaking to you now from. And this is the show where each episode, I have conversations with the musical innovators, the outsiders, the mavericks, the artists that do their own unique thing, and we talk about music, creativity, life, basically the things that inspire us to make the things that we make. Previous guests have included Peaches, suzanne Chiani, jim O'Rourke, chilly Gonzalez, hania, rani, ghost Poet, cosy, funny, tutti, graham Coxson, sleaford Mods, mickey Blanco and First and More. And today on the show I have a chat with the DJ and producer, simo Sell. My book Coming to Berlin is available in all good bookshops or via the publisher's website, velocity Press, and Lost and Sound is now a sub-stack too. There's a link in the podcast description. So, yes, thank you so much for tuning in today and my apologies to listeners any of you who were waiting for the show last week.
Speaker 1:That never happened. Sometimes it just doesn't happen and I apologize about that. Sometimes, you know, I try to keep things real. That's really important to me for this show and sometimes someone you're about to interview is sick, or I'm sick, or the Zoom doesn't work properly. You know there can be great time differences in the world between where we're speaking to people or I'm speaking to people from the Zooms can distort. Sometimes things just go wrong. Sometimes our own personal bandwidths get pushed to the max and we just have to scope back that week. It's no bother, and sometimes that happens and that happened last week, and I would rather just keep interviews authentic and real and put stuff out when it's right, and so that happens sometimes. So that's just by way of explaining what happened last week. But we're back and I'm so pleased with this interview.
Speaker 1:It's with Simo Sal, paris based producer and DJ hailing originally from Nantes in France I hope I've pronounced that right and for a long time. The reputation that he's built up solidly over the last decade. Within that, people made his presumption quite often that he was from the UK. His sound does take quite strong elements of UK based culture. I wouldn't say he's someone that is. You know, his music is way beyond one thing, but there is definitely strong traces in terms of the beat, the production, the preciseness, of elements of UK based culture. And a lot of people are quite surprised still are quite surprised that he's actually French. So strong is the connotation, with certain kinds of beats and rhythms, that it is going to come from the UK, which is kind of crazy really. But there you go and I wasn't actually particularly aware of his work. I'm not the biggest follower of the UK based sound. I have to admit I prefer my dancing, my dancing sounds, to have a four four. That's just me. But I came to his work very recently with his stunning debut album, cuspid there's Siwan and I can apologize if I pronounce it wrong which has just come out. So I missed the EPs, the mixes, the club sets that he's been doing and building a solid reputation over the last decade. And yes, this is an album, album Cuspid there's Siwan's and Simo, like other DJ producers at that point where they are just releasing their debut album, finds himself in this unusual.
Speaker 1:It's like a point in a in a DJ slash producers career, artistically and professionally, where their debut album is coming out or they've been working on their debut album or they're about to work on their debut album, and it's a transformative moment because up until that point they have been playing sets, they have been making EPs or individual tracks, and putting an album together is a completely different kettle of fish it is. It's the point, in some ways, where you go from an artist that is exploring your foundations and your surroundings to making a kind of concrete statement because, regardless of what people say or whatever's going on in the world or whatever new innovation is going on, the long player the LP, the album is still I think it is for me and I think for most of us sort of regarded as like an artistic statement is the point where we take what we've had before and we go to a wider world. You know, this is the point where people that are beyond the immediate scene kind of dive in and explore this artist's work and it is the opportunity for the artist to say something, and sometimes it's not just about collecting a series of bangers, or or doing sometimes the opposite approach, where a DJ slash producer will do the exact opposite and make, like, an ambient record or something like that. But they're both very, very valid approaches, but what Simo Cell does is is just create something I think timeless.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, I was really, really excited to have this chat with him and, yes, this is what happened. This is a really good chat. I really love this. You're going to hear it right now. Thanks so much for chatting with me today. How are you doing? Are you feeling better now? You had a bit of a cold last week or a bit ill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just the result of a month of really, really intense months and, yeah, I did like a lot of festivals recently. So, yeah, it was just a lot of partying as well, which and promo, the promo for the album everything at the same time, which makes me feel really sick last weekend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I understand that. I think it's sort of as a as a. You know, you're both a producer and a DJ and I think you know that's quite a lot to navigate as well, isn't it Like? Because they are like two totally different skill sets, in a way, that are kind of combined together, how do you, how do you feel that you navigate both, both of these, and kind of combine them?
Speaker 2:It's yeah, it's really hard. Actually, it's a good question Because, as you said, it's like really two different lives and, in the picture, in very different mindset. We were talking about it recently with Toma Kami and Nick Leon that when you're in a studio, dislike you just focus on it and you just come thinking about it all the time, even like when you sleep, like you're having thoughts about the music going on and it's really hard to communicate with people. You're in your cave in a way, and being a DJ is basically the complete opposite. You have to. You know, it's just. There's a lot of social moments. You have to be here, you have to be always on top form.
Speaker 2:Also, like it makes sense because, like, when someone wants to book, you can be like a crew with really passionate passionate about music and then when they book you, they want you, they want to talk with you, of course, and they want to share moments.
Speaker 2:And even for me, it's the best thing to do when I go to party and I play. If I have time to speak with a crew or promoter, it makes my DJ set even better because, like, every crew has his own personality and you can feel it on a dance floor. So talking with promoters and spending time with them listening to music or yeah, gives you some idea of what you're going to play. So, yeah, you have to give everything when you're touring, and so it's hard to just be on the studio from, let's say, monday afternoon to Thursday and then take a train or plane and go from Friday to Sunday on parties and yeah, just, you just have to switch like this. I would say the best way to do it would be to have moments, let's say like one moment in a studio, one month in a studio making only music, and then touring a month and do something like that. But I've never really managed to do it. It's pretty hard to find a balance.
Speaker 1:I think it's definitely something that ideally we would plan to have, but just the way we all have schedules, it never quite works out like that and we have to just kind of run with what we've got a lot of the time, exactly.
Speaker 2:It's, I think, like you learn to say no after some points. At the beginning it's impossible also because you have to show that you're here when you start your career. You have to be present, be active. But at some point you can start to say no to some gigs and you realize there won't like bookers or promoters will call you again. But still, when you have like a very special opportunity, you don't want to miss that. And sometimes you say no, I will be off for the next three weeks. And then you have this big opportunity coming. You're like okay, maybe I will do it.
Speaker 2:And yeah, also, like sometimes you know I've got requests six months in advance and you're like it's just question like, hey, do you want to play in Asia in six months? And it's really hard to project things and say, and no, in which mode you're going to be at that time. Yeah, sometimes it's just hectic because you accept too many gigs in a row and then you're just in a tunnel when you don't know how to manage all these things. So, yeah, I think with time you manage to learn how to deal with that a bit more, I would say. And also you have to keep in mind that it's not never perfect, you know. It's also accepting that, as you said, it was like trying to do Maybe two months off, two months touring is like in Topia. Sometimes it will happen, but some other it's normal, it's intense. Like, for example, right now I'm like touring during a tour for my album, having a promo campaign at the same time, so at that time it's just normal that it's intense, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you find that you have to let go of a little bit of the idea of things being perfect, then too, yeah, yeah, it's the same.
Speaker 2:It's like it takes. I think it's a Big drone, a running to. I mean, especially with my education, I always have this thing about like perfection. I'm trying to be like, yeah, I'm a bit of a control freak and you realize that. I mean, perfection doesn't really exist, just in your head in a way, and and. But yeah, it takes time. It's just like a pattern, like a habit of thinking. That even with my music is the same. Sometime you go way too far in details and you just realize it's not really that important. Sometimes details matters, but sometimes they doesn't matter that much. It's about the balance. Hmm, like for.
Speaker 1:Yes a different topic.
Speaker 2:But if you speak about perfection, I was talking about this story with hodge. I was making music with hodge, the Bristol artist from Liberty, so so we did a collab EP two years ago and Hodge is like, really spontaneous. If he doesn't finish a track in two days, then he will just forget about it and Try another one. And I'm quite the opposite. When I have an idea of a very specific idea, he can take the note two, three, four weeks to finish it. Because sometimes I know you still need to dig and when we make, we made the tracks. There was one track but which was sounding really good and Hodge was Telling me like this is it, we don't have to touch it anymore.
Speaker 2:I Was no, I think we can get like deeper, and I spent two weeks for nothing Just trying to add details and it was just a complete loss of time. And hodge was like See, I told you but yeah, but on another track which this is what was funny like on another track we had this track. This was cool, but I think it could be better. And hodge was like no, it's okay, it's done. And I kept working on it for a few days and I really managed to make the most of it and improve the sound. On one track he was right. On the other one I was. I'm just realized you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's.
Speaker 2:You never know. It's so much case by case. And it's this, this thing about perfection sometime. Yeah, sometimes you have to just give a bit more of work. Sometimes it's just you have to lay it back. Do they go? So it's really hard to. Yes, it's a matter of time. I would say.
Speaker 1:I think so too, and and I think it's because it's, you know, although, like, technique and science are very much involved in, in in Elements of production and and music, there's also like we're judging it through our senses of intuition as well, isn't there, and there's no real definitive textbook on intuition and what feels right to us, and you know so. It's like, yeah, sometimes we have to try things that don't work, and other times Something will just happen but works Before we even realized it's worked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. It's really about intuition and this is what you like. The way you can Progress on the direction is just like by making just experience in a way making.
Speaker 2:Music. I think, though, there is there is something that can help, though it's like Just the amount of time you spend behind the screen, or just the amount of time you spend working. This is definitely the more you're working if you stay. If you spend like 10 hours behind your computer making music, you start to be, you start to feel a bit, your mind is a bit blurry in a way. So To help that intuition to make to, to help to make good choices, it's about also Take a lot of breaks, and, yeah, you know like if you just make music for five hours a day, which is a really a lot, then you give your brain a bit more space on the other time, just to breathe, and being peaceful in your mind helps to just Realize and to, yes, step back and see okay, now I'm going too far, because when you just when you keep working, keep working, then you invested so many, so much time that you want to Keep going.
Speaker 2:You know, because if you stop, then it's like yeah, like no, I can't stop now. I need to finish that idea. So there is this feeling of impatience, in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. It's like I think we have to realize that we're, when we're working with giving stuff, we're taking stuff, taking stuff out of ourselves, and so naturally that's gonna run out and you need to, you know, take breaks, have fresher, do other things to feed the energy. Back in to Ben Patel again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, there is this thing. It's called a theory, called the spiral of investment.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know that. No, that's cool. What is that about?
Speaker 2:It's like the more you invest, invest time on something, the more you're willing to finish it, even if it's not a good idea. You know, like, let's say, you spend three weeks on a track, even if it's not a good track, you already spent three weeks, so you have to finish it because it would be like a waste of time in your head you know so, yeah, this, the spiraling of investment, that, yeah, I think this is the exact time. Yeah, it's just like something you need to be really Aware of it sometime. Just to step back, for example, when I make music, as I want to keep things spontaneous and also as I know that I can really fall into that trap, I Always work on, let's say, two or three tracks at the same time and I have like a very clinical process, like I have a timer and I work for 45 minutes to. Yeah, 45 minutes on a track, then I do like a 10 minute break and Then I do 45 minutes on another track not the same one and then again a third track. So this way, I forget about the idea before and I'm still I'm always fresh and I know I just have 45 minutes to make the most of this session and I do maximum five session of 45 minutes a day. This way I can like just give some space to my, to my brain yes, I'm headspace, basically and this way I have like so many tracks going on.
Speaker 2:Let's say, I worked on an idea and I Won't be too precious that thing. I want me to purchase that idea is because I have so many ideas going on. Like I can just Leave this one and take another one and maybe it's just like some sample that we use for something else. Then I can merge some project together. So this is one trick I found to just help, you know, not losing too much, too much time. Yeah, so yeah, limitation, time limitation. And another one is so I use lots of plugins and sometimes you have demo version of plugins when you just have 30 minutes to make a stone, you know. So instead of being the plug, I keep the demo version, because I just have so many minutes to make a song and I know after it is gonna cut and then I record it. So, yeah, this is some kind of really like a simple trick that I use just to keep spontaneous. Otherwise I can spend. I Could really spend four or five hours just on some designing a snare drum or something like that.
Speaker 1:I would. That's a that's a really clever, good tip, because I think it's sometimes it's about not necessarily is knowing what we like, and so it's like sort of Putting in structures so to best suit us as well, isn't it? Because I guess also one of the different, one of Perhaps the major difference between electronic music being an electronic music producer and, say, like a traditional Producer of live instruments or like of that's brought in to produce a band, is that you're doing everything mostly, whereas, like you know, a band will like or a classical singer will have, like a producer that kind of comes in and does all of our stuff, you know they'll be the one that measures it all, you know they'll have their stock watch and you know they're right on how much studio time there is, whereas you have to have these things as an is an electronic music Producer to get the work done and also get the best results out of your work as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's pretty. It's something you don't really realize when you start making music in this tiny world of, like, electronic music world is the only place where producers, artists, are making everything by on their own, as you said. Like, if you look at pop records, the credits, the credit lines are huge, for example, and and Also, if, if you're not doing your mix down on your own in the electronic music world, it's it's seen as something very negative in a way, where, at the end, you can really work with people and it's not like, for example, on the album. This is the first time I worked with Someone on the mixdowns and I'm really happy about it because you can just focus on. It's just about also learning how to meet the good people and the people you're going to have like a good connection with. So, yeah, there is really this thing. Like I was talking with some rap producers and they didn't really understood why it was like this and it's something like it's a complete nonsense for them, like why I'm doing everything from start to finish.
Speaker 1:It's like a very artisan trade, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:It's really good in the end. It's like when you can just master the process from beginning to the end, to the end. It's just it's feels really like a satisfying in a way, like if you compare to rap producing, it's really frustrating sometimes, like you have just you make you make like a loop, or it's just about making loops first and then like the loop. Maybe they will just keep like Once there, one kick drum of your, of your music. So it's just a different process, as you say. It's more like industrial in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you're, you're supplying something. You're making shoelaces that go on a really good pair of shoes, or something like that Exactly. Yeah, I like that. I mean because there is like with the album as well and I have to apologize, being English, my Pronunciation of French is fucking appalling, so I apologize, but cuspeed, this serial, how do I know? Oh, oh, wow, okay, first time luck. But I love the album and there's so much detail and attention to detail and things like space Involved in it. Like everything feels very sort of precise. You know, with this very conscious view to kind of do something that to me it sounds kind of like almost like architectural, but you know, you have things happening in certain spaces. Like I feel the shapes Of the sounds when I'm listening. I mean, what was it you were sort of sonically aiming for with with the record?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to. So, like production wise, I spent a lot of time on elements just into yeah, the more simple is the track in the end, the better it is for me, so it's just about trying to be minimalistic as possible, even if there is a lot of things happening. It's mainly texture and stuff in the background, but the elements are really focusing on elements to make them sound the best as possible. To me, it's not about the sounds, but more about the silence between the sounds. The more you can give space and silence between sounds, the more the sounds just happens naturally. Yeah, if it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get an impression of that anyway when I'm listening to it. I definitely think silence is quite a brave thing to play with as well, isn't it Because we have a tendency to want to fill silence? Did that take a bit of time to step back and let the silence speak for itself?
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah. So my dad is a classical guitarist player and actually it's something he told me a long time ago and it was a big revelation to me, because he said I don't play notes, I play with silence and then the notes come. It's crazy. So he never speaks about the next note or what's going to happen when he's playing. He's just speaking about the silence between the notes and then the notes happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So he's thinking about the next four bars. What's going to happen, but just what's here now and how to make it sound properly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can feel that. So your dad was a musician, was he?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you grew up in a musical environment.
Speaker 2:Then yeah, both my parents are guitarists a guitar player, so my dad is quite well respected and still has a big career. He's touring for I don't know 40 years, wow, and he's a soloist. He's playing solo on stage, he's an interpreter, basically playing music from other composers, and yeah, the way he interprets.
Speaker 2:music is just you can really feel his touch, in a way Like it's always him trying to revisit some artists. So there is the work of the writer, but also the work of the interpreter is so important to the best of the music. You know, which is a bit different in electronic music, but yeah, I grew up listening to guitar every day. When I woke up, my dad's studio was just close to my bedroom, so just waking up and listening to music, following my parents in festivals during the summer, listening to a lot of artists, but mostly classical guitar. And my dad is from Argentina, so he has all this folk music background from Argentina, playing tango and milongas and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, this is basically my background, the way he was playing. Also. He used to in his repertoire he used to play a lot of classical stuff, like really classical, like baroque music or anything like that, but there was so really modern stuff. So always a combination of yeah, the first part would be pretty conservative and the second part of the concept would be really modern, sometimes even abstract or contemporary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you feel like he was into both of those equally, or do you feel that there was more of a pull towards one or the other?
Speaker 2:I think he went through phases when he started his career. When he started, you need to get accepted by your peers, basically.
Speaker 1:Right, oh yes, so peer recognition, Exactly, peer recognition.
Speaker 2:So when he started he was more into the really classical stuff baroque Renaissance, a bit of contemporary stuff, but no folk music at all, because the music from Argentina, his music from Argentina, was seen as something like a fantasy or something like that, but not something serious in a way. So he was mostly playing the classical repertoire, even some music from back, stuff like that. And actually at that time Dutch gramophone, the big label, came to him to release an album focused on Argentinian music and he said no, Really, why not?
Speaker 2:Because he was like no, they're not taking me seriously, I'm a real artist and now it's something a bit taboo. It's really hard to speak about it because now, after like 10 years of doing this, he started to just develop his identity and also go back to his roots and now this is something that is really pushing it even more than the classic stuff, like all the folk stuff is something really important right now with his repertoire. So if you think somebody now is like maybe I should have done it, but I guess it's the journey of life as well.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's just really interesting.
Speaker 1:You said that as well because there's a few bits that I've read of interviews with you in the past as well, and reviews and stuff where I was talking about like, because I'd say, like your music. I'm not really a big fan of categorizing music at all, but there are sort of commonalities where it's easy to sort of discuss things in a certain way, and there's a lot of elements of bass music in your music and I heard that you've in the past people have kind of presumed or never, since your music that you've been like a UK bass producer quite a bit as well and obviously there's a lot of kind of connotations that come with certain sounds and way, outlooks and ways of doing things that the UK bass scene has. And do you feel like, in terms of like, relating to like your dad as well, do you feel like sort of that's something that you feel like you want to? Is that something that you like to embrace or is that something that you've always felt that you wanted to kind of go hang on a minute? No, I'm not.
Speaker 2:So I think at first I really embraced it because eight, 10 years ago as a digital producer, I was really on my own little island in France. It was really rare to do it. People used to call me the most English-sounding French person. Also because I was signed on Livetison, this label from Bristol, and I was the only French artist, the non-Bristolan artist, signed on this label. So at first it looks like a new pattern in a way, like an exotic thing, like this French guy on this really Bristol label. So it really helped me like what's happening there was a surprise in a way.
Speaker 2:So I think, compared to if I would have been British at that time, it would have been a bit slower in my career. So having this thing helped me a lot. But now things have really evolved and the still I defend is getting picked I would say picked up and spread by a lot of artists, both in France and worldwide. Even the way I'm mixing and digging across, doing like a mixings of different styles, it's like something which is now here and I really feel that now this bass label, this bass image I have, is a bit this is something I don't really like anymore. I don't feel I'm a bass artist.
Speaker 2:Bass is like my vintage and it's part of it, but it's so. It's much more than that, I would say. Also, it's really strange because everything that is not for four four club music is seen as bass of Brex. It's this kind of duality between four four club music versus the other stuff, and all the other stuff are Brex or alternative, and it's much more than that, I would say. There is so much like different rhythms, so much different tempo, so much different, yes, sonic aesthetics, but still, if it's not four four, it's just the other, this box where everything is Definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean, I live in Berlin as well, and I think, although things are getting a lot more diverse in Berlin in terms of being able to go out and experience music that isn't just four four all of the time, there is still that kind of thing that when producers and DJs come in that play music that isn't on the four four, it is seen as being different, markedly different, and stuff. But I think that's a good thing though, isn't it? It's a good thing to sort of show your differences and sort of Definitely.
Speaker 2:but the thing is is that, for example, some of my favorite techno set I've seen recently were made by artists that are seen as alternative artists. So it's not because you're like a bass, you're seen as a bass or a break artist or non-four four, that you can't do, that you can't play techno, you know. And I mean I love playing all kinds of groove, including four, four. And just the thing is I love building bridges between different cultures and aesthetics, so, but I can play hard, I can play soft, and it's just about improvisation and poetry on the dance floor, like how to bring tension, contrast, story.
Speaker 2:And I think if you've been seen as an alternative or experimental DJ, it's something a bit sad in a way, because I mean it's nice to feel different, to show a difference in a way, but there is so many techno clubs I know I could do the job properly and I'm not really invited there because it's like, yeah, it would be seen as a risk, but I can really also play this. I'm a big fan of Detroit techno and hard stuff. It's just like, yeah, one dimensional view, I would say, lead to conformity. That's the thing always.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely agree with that in terms of my experiences and sort of noticing again, again. I think it's that kind of thing of like I do understand the need for people to label things, but I don't as an artist. It does feel very constrictive to sort of be on the other end of that experience of like. You know, the artists are the people that are making the stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yet at the same time they're put in the boxes by people that aren't necessarily making the stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, I think it's. Yeah, as you said, it's a natural process. We all do like try to put things in boxes because it's helps to yeah, it's helps to see it more clearly. So I think it's also about accepting it in a way. You will always be put in a box, Like even because it's so. With this really like a versatile way of playing in a DJ set, I thought I was really free to do what I want. Like, if I want to play techno one, I can do it. But the thing is now, if I go to a club and some people come to see me and then if I play a very like, if I decide to do a statement just like a techno DJ set, people would come to me and say like, hey, you didn't do tempo shift and you didn't. Then, even if you play a lot of stuff, then you have this image of like, it's no matter what you do, you will have like, you will be in a box for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and talking of boxes, I don't know if this is a box, but you were at Tresor the other week and I always think of Tresor as like a cage, isn't it, in terms of the German word for it. How was that? Was that an amazing experience, or how did that go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because it was also so.
Speaker 1:I sorry, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so I I don't know is always really a specific moment, a very special moment for me. I know quite a lot of the festival. I've been playing there since 2016 every year, and they gave me this opportunity when I was a young DJ, I was at the start of my career to play, to play there, which is something really special for a festival, quite unique because Aeternal is like a huge festival and there's a lot of people coming to discover new artists and they look really low key artists, which is something I like about this festival and you can really feel the crowd is. It's like, yeah, they're really here to be surprised, in a way. So this is one of the gigs I wait a lot of. Every time I got the booking for this festival, I keep thinking about it for months and months because I can't wait to play to this festival and, yeah, as always, it's really a specific experience. You can play basically whatever you want, which in Berlin sometimes can be quite hard to do.
Speaker 1:Totally. And that's what I love about Atomel as well is that people go because they want to experience the music, obviously say like if something totally pop happened, it might kind of I think people probably even enjoy that so long as it didn't turn. But there's a context that allows people to kind of people trust the artist, they trust the curators and they trust the artist really, which is really really nice thing, I think.
Speaker 2:And this is why you see really unusual things at Tresor. For example, on Saturday night I saw a really, really deep German bass set at Tresor from 3 to 5, which was wow. Okay From Catatonic Silenzio on December and it was like a fantastic experience, also because this spot, this venue that you know by heart, you come there and you discover it in a different context, which makes it good too, Because you rediscover the place, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, seeing Tresor with this really deep groovy dubstep where liquid sound was an amazing experience, because this is not what you're supposed to get over there, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which kind of echoes back into what you were saying just now as well about like you know. We were talking about like there are limitations, but when people can be really surprised and find something we're really rewarding, when something in that shift, something in a place that we expect something does something different, for example, oh, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I kind of get the sense that you're talking about, like the journey aspect. There's something quite meditative as well about like your work. Even though it is kind of, in some ways, it's quite a tough sound at some points and it's very precise. There's also this feeling of like going on a journey and meditative aspect, and I know you've spoken in the past about Eckhart Toll as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's quite interesting because I read the power of now about five years ago as well, and you know, and I think it was definitely one of them and I was wanting to ask you about it because it was something that for me at the time left a huge impression. Then I had some questions about it afterwards. Then I sort of came to a sort of more of a kind of a I'm okay with it, but it's not been a straightforward journey. I'd love the idea of viewing things in the present, and the past has happened in the future as yet to come. But you know that is a complicated thing and I was wanting to know what your take was about it.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, so I discovered Eckhart Toll 10 years ago when I had panic attacks, and this is how I discovered this book, which was talking about Zen technique and meditation and how to step back from your thoughts, and it helped a lot actually, because when you have a panic attack, it's just like your mind is just leaving you. It's like a trap in a way, like it's never ending.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a loop, isn't it? I've had that before, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a loop, it's a constriction, like a big structure and it's like a layer. And it's a layer and it keeps adding some thoughts and like it's just playing with your insecurities and fears sometimes. So it's helped just to step back from it, realize that it's a process in itself and it's not you. So I would say like, yeah, the book helped me a lot and the thing is that I started to see my life through that one angle, through that book, because it helped me to just, yeah, I went through all those panic attacks thanks to this book. So once you have this, it's like an answer, it brings an answer. And then, because Echartolé is talking about enlightenment and trying to be pure and even something, trying to be neglecting emotions. There is this thing in Buddhism, in a way like emotion, they're distracting you in a way. So, seeing the life through that one angle from Echartolé, I started to just my only goal was to just trying to be enlightened. In a way, you know it's like you try to ask, it's like when you're not feeling good, you're looking for a way to escape, and I think I was trying to escape from myself. So I started to neglect my emotions in a way. Yeah, I took it to a very dangerous extreme, I would say. Every time I was feeling bad, I felt like it was my own responsibility. You know, when I was sad, I was like, hey, it's my fault because I can't deal with it. And the thing that can be really dangerous with Echartolé, I would say, is that it's really, it's really speak about only yourself. There is no, there is no things said about the context around you, and we are living in a different context and in a very hard context at the moment. And in the book they say like everything relies on you, you have the power to be free from your mind and la la la. So it's really like individualistic in a way. Yeah, sometimes it's just normal to feel bad and to have anger, and it's also about emotion, and this trying to look for purity is can be very dangerous in a way, because you start to you want to be, to reach this state of being a god in a way, where we just have to keep in mind that we're just humans and all this emotion are beautiful, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I was really trapped at some point in this pattern of thinking, just because I think Echartolé also makes you feel you're on a higher level. It makes you feel special. And, let's say, if someone would disagree with me, I wouldn't really listen to him, thinking to myself, like they would, that he would probably he couldn't really understand that because it was not on the same level. So you know, there is this kind of trick when, yeah, you just hide on you. I was. I started to feel isolated because I was thinking no one can understand me and I'm just trying to reach that goal which is more important than everything. And the first message is about being in the present, which is amazing. At some point you just forget about it because you just try to reach that state in the future. So I was neglecting even music. I was like, no, music is not that important. The world is just trying to reach that state of constant joy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But in the end you realize that everything is impermanent and even the best feeling, the end, and it's just like these waves of emotion going. Anger is one of it, happiness is one of it, being is full is one of it, but it's just moving all the time. So to me it's more about how you maintain to have like a balanced brain and just to have like way less. The waves can be really hard, you know, like big, big joy and then big fear or anything, and the more you maintain balance, the more you can just, you know enjoy peacefulness, because the waves are a bit more like quiet in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I relate to a lot of what you're saying. Saying, though, I think I had some experiences as well. It was on one level as well. It was almost like I think they kind of call it like a spiritual bypass as well. You know, I felt like I wanted to sort of be in this state all of the time, yeah, and I was neglecting certain aspects of reality. You know, it was almost like. You know, there was a, there was a period quite early on where I just didn't pay bills for a couple of months, because I was just thinking, oh, that's just material stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and I was thinking something you know, like I don't, you know, I'll do that when it feels right to do that, you know, and you know, and I think it's also, you know, like sort of maybe being. I was maybe being short with people rather than being entirely empathetic, even though I kind of felt I was being empathetic to people, I think, like because I wanted to. I thought like if people were basically giving me what I viewed as negative energy, I'd cut them off rather than listening to them, you know, and and although I think it is good to kind of preserve our energy from people who perhaps do have a harmfulness about them, at the same time I took it really too far and perhaps, like you know, if a friend was sort of saying ahead a bad week at work, I'd be going, yeah, but you just got to tune into, like you know, rather than like give them, like you know, be there and be listening or being a friend really.
Speaker 2:Exactly and you're like, ah, time doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, totally.
Speaker 2:If you can't catch this train, then you can catch the other one.
Speaker 1:But I'm working at six tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it's just in your head, you know, I know, yeah.
Speaker 1:But you feel like you've come to terms with that now and found like an element of it that you can use. That is more based in sort of like the ups and downs and flows of, you know, accepting the kind of the badge as well, as well as yeah yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I think there are good things to learn from it. It's just like you said, if you take it like too seriously, it can be really dangerous and so, yes, no one can really help you to go out of it. You have to realize it on your own that you're going too far because, as we, as I said before, you just stuck in this trap of just like trying to because you're seeing, you think you're just on a different level, you know, even like because because a cartoulet is.
Speaker 2:He's describing himself as eagerness, and even like a gun, which makes it really hard to question his teaching.
Speaker 2:No he's right, and I saw this video on YouTube when there was some Q&A with a cartoulet and someone told, asked him, have you ever regret any anything you said? And he said, like not really, because everything I say come from the source, so it's not me that I'm talking, it's it's God through. Yeah, and like, what kind of philosophy is it when there is not even like dopped dopting is so important in every kind of philosophy? And when you think of, when you pretend having telling very like the one unique verity, then there is maybe something going wrong at some point. But yeah, I broke free from the pattern in 2020, I would say yeah, randomly, I went on a forum, was talking about sex and there was a topic about the cartoulet and I clicked on it and they were like describing all those mental pattern, like even like this thing about dopped. I was talking about the fact that he's trying to, yeah, manipulate you in a way, just in the book, and I recognized myself in all the messages. I was like what the fuck is happening? That was me. And then it helped me to. It was like I stepped out, I went out of it just on one day, like this. It was really good song.
Speaker 2:And then I think I lost confidence because I didn't even know how to react to my feelings anymore, like, should I accept them, should I fight them? I was really lost and yeah, at that time music was like a therapy. I went back to what was important, to what was really important to me music. And yeah, every time I felt bad.
Speaker 2:Because the thing is, when you feel bad, when you feel insecure, and you, when you have a catheter on your side, for example, you still have this in mind like it's a security in a way, it's like paradise. And if I feel bad, I know that there is this kind of paradise where I would reach like a pure bliss or something like that. And when you go out of this pattern, then you're naked in a way, because when you're feeling bad, you don't have anything to reassure you. You didn't have this idea of enlightenment or anything to reassure you. So I was just lost, like, okay, when I feel bad, what should I do? And I just I was just making music all day, basically, and it helped me to rebuild myself.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. And you said 2020, though, so I guess would that be around the sort of time of the pandemic as well, where there isn't much else to do and so you must have. Did you feel like that was something like you know? I mean, obviously everything wasn't open at that time, did you? So you put a lot of energy into the production and the music at that time as a way of also finding yourself again. Did you say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably, yeah, but yeah, I've never thought about that. But yeah, when I broke free from the pattern, yeah, it's really interesting to think about the fact that it happened during the pandemic, because, yeah, also like when you're just running and rushing all the time, just you keep going with the same mental patterns, just like habits.
Speaker 2:And I think it's helped you anyway, because you have so much time, as you said and this is also it had to happen at that time because I mean, it helps that it happened at that time because I was, yeah, in different routine, behaving differently, so it also helps to step back about what's going on on your life and stuff like that. And, yeah, also, as you said, then I had so much time to make music. So I think, yeah, because when I make music, I don't really think about anything, it's just like a very intuitive process.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So when I felt bad or insecure, I was just okay, I'm gonna open Ableton and do some music, and after that I'm gonna feel better.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant and did part of the album come out of that period as well?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely so. In the last three years since 2020, I composed over 50 tracks. So yeah, it was a music bulimia, basically, like an intense energy going inside me, and it was actually really hard to control it and to direct it. It was just everything like music come out, no matter what just pours out of me, naturally.
Speaker 1:And because there's a concept behind the album as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so did that kind of emerge at the same time, or did you start to sort of pick out things that started to sort of feel like they fitted with this concept?
Speaker 2:No, like the concept happened came two years after. At the beginning I didn't really know where to go, especially when you make an album. Like I'm a club, I'm seen as a club producer. I was a club producer before. So, like, I mostly do EPs four tracks, so you don't really have to sing too much about it. It's just functional music. It's made for the dance floor and most of the time you have to at some point you have to work on an album.
Speaker 2:So it was something I really wanted to do, but at the same time, I was really afraid, because you don't want the album to be a collection of 12 bangers for a club but at the same time, you don't want the album to be just a collection of ambient track and just because you have to do something more serious and okay, now I'm gonna make music, so I will do ambient, and it can be really empty.
Speaker 2:So I was looking for yeah, I didn't know where to start. It's really also like I think people, some people were waiting for it. So there was this pressure on the album in a way. So, instead of thinking too much about all this, I just wrote a lot of tracks like yeah, one after another, without thinking too much about a direction, and after like two years I had maybe 40 tracks and it was time for me to stop and just to step back and to think about what to do with all those tracks, because I knew there were some tracks I really wanted to put on the album, but the other I didn't know. So this is where I started to think about the concept, and the concept helped me to just find a direction and select the last 12 tracks of the album in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've spoken. A couple of artists recently have spoken about like the kind of concepts behind their albums as well, or EPs where they did have, like you know, they had like a kind of concept, like you've got like a story and they're sort of saying that it's sort of helped them, almost like it's to help them, like the album was like a building or a house and it helped them decorate the house, you know nowhere things go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the best image I would say. I will take it actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tell me, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's because, like you don't, I don't really want to say any. I don't want to share any message with my music. You know it's emotions and there is so many ways to listen to music, so one album can be perceived very differently from one to another. So this is something I want to keep like. Someone has his own version or vision of the album. So if you start with a message and then make music, it's really different, because you want people to agree to your message. In a way, you want to show something which is definitely not the case. So I think, yes, it's all about emotions and feelings when it comes to music. It's I mean, music has been here for ages, even before worlds, like we started to dance and to experience sounds, before we started to speak as humans, you know. So, yeah, it comes before, before concepts or before intellectual things. It's more like a feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can imagine that's like. I mean, I don't know, I don't know enough about it. But, like you know, I think of things like Bird's Song as well and stuff like you know that is. I mean, at least my mum told me once that, like birds are definitely singing. You know, it's not like the, it's not just a sound, it's like there is definitely singing going on there. It's a sort of form of communication. So, yeah, it is something that is. It goes beyond that. So we, you know, we attach our own meanings to it, what we hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I always. I also really like when people show meaning behind this behind the thing when it's, it's there, like it belongs to them, you know.
Speaker 2:But it's funny because sometimes people come to me and say like, oh, I saw this in your EP or I saw this on your album, was it the case? And they're expecting me to validate their like hypothesis. And I always say, yes, it was exactly this, you know, I always have this. And they're like, oh, they feel happy that it was that's a. I validate it in a way. But yeah, no matter what someone will say about my music, I will say, yeah, this is exactly what it was, you know, because it's true, like it belongs to anyone, to everyone.
Speaker 1:That's really nice way to do it as well, isn't it? And then like because if you're doing that, you're not taking away someone's own experience of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so personal, it's like a personal experience everyone with headphones and stuff like that. Yeah, it's a collective experience on a dance floor, but like, listening to an album can be something really yeah, individual and personal, and also I think it fits to the way I make music. Like, when I start making music, I open Ableton and I don't really think about anything, I'm not, I don't have any idea, I just start.
Speaker 2:Then, depending on the mood I have, depending on the feeling, then I will just yeah try stuff and it happens spontaneously and it's really organic in a way, like you have one idea and then, oh, a second one, and then two or three or five, and then it's like doors opening all the time. But to open those doors arrives after starting, not before like starting, but just while I'm making it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's the same with me when I'm writing as well. I mean, obviously, if I'm writing like of some piece of journalism, that's different. But, like you know, with my, you know, with free writing, creative writing, on my book, it is it's like, yeah, you see where it goes, even if there's like a sort of genre or something like that, you see where it goes and it's partly it's like my relationship with the sound I make, the words I'm making at that time. Maybe it's the same with the relationship you have with the sounds at the time. It's like it becomes a dialogue where you're, you know, you're communicating with the sounds you're making, aren't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely yeah, it's just like you also feel like your brain is working at the same time and you're making music, for example, writing. So it's just you have to push it a bit, to push your brain a bit, to just give it some dynamic, just to for the brain to just have to give ideas, in a way Like if someone asked me like now, try to be creative and give me an idea, now I wouldn't be able to do it. Yeah, yeah, you start from nowhere, from blank page, and then it happens like this Totally, totally, it's not on tap yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a free fall in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, simo, thank you so much. Thank you for chatting with me today, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:I was really really happy about the interview Great chat.
Speaker 1:Great, yeah, me too. I really enjoyed that. Okay, so that was me, paul Hamford, talking with Simo Cell for Lost in Sound podcast, and we had that conversation on the 19th of September 2023. Thank you so much, simo, for sharing your thoughts and experiences there. I really, really really enjoyed having that chat. The debut album, caspid de Siron and again I apologize about my pronunciation is just out and it's on the Temet label. Yes, yes, thank you so much for listening. Thank you for bearing with me last week when there was a no show.
Speaker 1:Lost in Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio Technica. Audio Technica are a global but still family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones. It's stuff that I really, really genuinely use. It's stuff that I'm speaking to you now from. I'm hearing my voice right now wearing their headphones. Head on over to AudioTechnicacom. Wherever you are in the world, check out their stuff. I'd also like to say thanks to Thomas Kiddens, who does the music that you hear at the beginning, at the end, of every episode of Lost in Sound. But mostly, I want to thank you. Thank you for listening. I hope you have a fucking brilliant day and I'll chat to you soon. Upbeat music playing you, you.