Paul talks with innovative producer, musician, and DJ, Carmen Villain, unravelling the key influences that have shaped her sound, ranging from hip hop, R&B to minimalism. Carmen opens up about her late start in music and her love for loops and textures, taking us behind her creative process, shedding light on her desires to blend dub influences with cosmic free jazz, electronic textures with scoring music for dance performance. The culmination of these experiences is what makes her latest album, Only Love From Now On, and her EP, Music From the Living Monuments, a testament to her artistic evolution.
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Subscribe to the Lost and Sound Substack for fresh updates and writing here.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
Paul talks with innovative producer, musician, and DJ, Carmen Villain, unravelling the key influences that have shaped her sound, ranging from hip hop, R&B to minimalism. Carmen opens up about her late start in music and her love for loops and textures, taking us behind her creative process, shedding light on her desires to blend dub influences with cosmic free jazz, electronic textures with scoring music for dance performance. The culmination of these experiences is what makes her latest album, Only Love From Now On, and her EP, Music From the Living Monuments, a testament to her artistic evolution.
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Subscribe to the Lost and Sound Substack for fresh updates and writing here.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
Lost in Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica. Audio Technica are a global but still family run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones, studio quality yet affordable products, because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. And I'm speaking to you right now wearing their M50X headphones. They're for the studio, they're for every day, they're really for whatever you want them to be. I speak to all my guests wearing them and I like them on my head, but whatever way you like your headphones, head on over to AudioTechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. Okay, yes, it's Lost in Sound time. Hello and welcome to Lost in Sound. I'm Paul Hanford, I'm your host and I'm going to be your host.
Speaker 1:I'm a writer, author and university lecturer based in Berlin, where I'm speaking to you now from, and this is the show where, each episode, I have conversations with the musical innovators, the outsiders, the mavericks, the artists that just do their own unique thing, and we talk about life, creativity, the things that make us do the things that we do. Previous guests that I've spoken to on the show include Peaches, suzanne Chiani, guillermo Roark, chilly Gonzales, hania Rani, ghost Poet Cosy Funny, tutti, graham Coxson, sleaford Mods, mickey Blanco, and First and More, and today on the show, I have a chat with Carmen Villan. If you were in Berlin and at PodFest over the weekend, thank you so much for coming down. It was a pleasure to speak with the guests that I spoke with and to find out more. If you weren't there, I'll be putting the shows out. I did one show but there was two artists. I'm going to be putting out both conversations individually over the coming weeks and also my book Coming to Berlin is available in all good bookshops and via the publisher's website. The publisher is Velocity Press. Okay, so Carmen Villan is on the show today. Producer, musician DJ. I spoke to her on Zoom from where she lives in Oslo, and I think one of the things that I've always find really interesting in talking with artists is so much of the conversations we have is based on when we have it, the sort of here and now of speaking to a particular artist at that particular time, and a lot of the perceptions and recollections are based in what they're up to at that time in their lives and with that output, and that changes all of the time and I find that kind of one of those things about writing and talking about music is, something is sometimes, in a way, it's like pinning down something that is always moving, always flowing.
Speaker 1:Artists output is only like fragments of time. You know, it's like a snapshot of, in a lot of ways, of where they're at, like a diary sometimes, and pinning it down and defining it it is a bit like trying to tell a fish in a stream to just stop moving, because art and creativity and music is always moving and artists, work is always metamorphosizing and I think this is particularly true with Carmen Villan's work. Early, early work was in the realms of being kind of shoe gaze dream pop. She's very, very frank about it, as you're going to hear in the interview, is really refreshingly frank about it. I like the early work, but it's really interesting hearing what her reflections on it and over the 10 years or so that she has been releasing music, the work has changed significantly. I feel like when we think of Carmen Villan now, we think of what she's doing now and it is really bloody brilliant what she's doing now. The two most recent works only love from now on, the album released in early 2022. And more recent EP, the living monuments EP, or music music from the living monuments EP, which she composed for contemporary dance performance choreographer Esther Salomon I apologize if I've pronounced your name wrong.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry about that is full of loops, kind of woozy, hazy, percussive, jazzy, experimental, and it's what they call fourth world, but it never feels like you need a degree to understand it or find your way in. There's real fucking warmth there and so, yes, I really really, really happy to have this chat. We spoke on October, the 11th 2023. Me and Berlin Carmen, in Oslo, and this is what happened. Well, thanks so much for speaking to me today and for making time for doing this interview. Really great to chat with you, and I just start off how are you? Whereabouts are you at the moment? I can see lots of books.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm at home in Oslo.
Speaker 1:And has that always been home for you? Have you kind of moved around over the years?
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I've been. I grew up here, but then I lived in New York for three years and then in London for about eight years before I moved back here again.
Speaker 1:So I mean, the style of your music has changed a lot over the years in terms of certain aspects, but there's always been like aspects that kind of connect it all up at the same time. One of the ways it has changed in the most visible way is the way you stopped using vocals as a primary method of expression and it feels like more and more your music has, in terms of how, I hear, it uses texture as a form of telling the story. And I wanted to kind of ask about, like, what texture means to you, because I mean, when I even kind of go back and listen to your early work, you know, with vocals the texture is still obviously very, very important. So, as one, are you quite a sort of textural person?
Speaker 2:I think, sound wise. I am for sure, and yeah, I think you're right. I think it's definitely been part of the every important part of all the production process since the beginning is just that sort of obsession with creating little moments out of everything that's around the main, main bits. So, yeah, it's extremely important.
Speaker 1:And do you get quite fanatical about finding sounds and sort of manipulating sounds?
Speaker 2:Yes, not necessarily about finding sounds always, because it's sort of the sounds that I've found sort of tend to happen randomly. I just might suddenly hear something and I go, oh that that sounds cool, and then I'll just record it and then I may or may not use it again. So I try to sort of I just record stuff and then I have an archive of stuff that I might dig into, rarely go out. I need to record this sound and I'll go and do that and then bring it back and use that very specifically, that sound, very specifically. It's more as just, I guess, exploring the different options that might arise from the different sounds. And options will definitely come out through, yeah, processing all the sounds and changing them and making them sound different, or bringing out certain frequencies, or maybe there might be some new harmonics that develop, or out of that there might be a melody that gets, is hidden in the sound somewhere and yeah, so that's how it sort of develops.
Speaker 1:And on love from now on. I mean, there's also a lot of space in the music and a lot of atmosphere, and is atmosphere important to your process as well? Like, do you feel like you know there's a, you know you've got these sounds, but is there a sort of way of knowing, when these sounds come together, that you feel like you've created a certain kind of atmosphere?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think it's just like a reaction, like an instinctive reaction, I guess, whilst listening Just what kind of feels good together. And then I think it's a lot about just listening to the sounds and then manipulating and arriving out of space that feels good while listening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's quite an instinctive process. Yeah, very much and in terms of like atmosphere as well, is it sort of? Is it important for you to kind of create the atmosphere like around your recording, like I know, like some artists I speak to, they have to. They have certain like rituals beforehand or certain kind of mood enhancers or things that go on or don't go on in the studio around that time. Do you have like rituals and stuff?
Speaker 2:No, I don't. I just try to just go down to my studio and just do some work, and then sometimes something happens, and sometimes it's like you know, and when it does it's just it just I just go into it and disappear into it for a few hours and then just suddenly realize that I need a coffee, or I was actually a lot of coffee involved, but I haven't felt the need to use any other substances.
Speaker 2:So far I've actually never even listened to any of my own stuff whilst on anything, so which might be interesting at some points in life, but it's just whether it works or not, whether the I guess what the sounds bring and what my brain is, how it reacts and how it's wired that day, I guess, maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely very reliant on caffeine as well. Yes, definitely, and it's a good way to kind of bookmark the day as well between events.
Speaker 2:And it creates and also forces me to take a break which is good, and we have really good coffee and also sort of forces me to go. Okay, instead of just sitting with us for another five hours, then I'll go out and have a little break and fresh air and get a nice cup of coffee and then come back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and actually an artist I was speaking to a couple of weeks ago, simo, so was kind of explaining that it was a quite similar thing in terms of these sets. Maybe we don't all do it consciously in terms of, like, certain amounts of time, but he kind of quite deliberately sets a certain amount of time to work on something and then the break afterwards is always like a time to just let the ideas soak in and see what works and doesn't. So do you feel like these kind of breaks are quite important for leaving the work alone for a while to let it set?
Speaker 2:I think it's definitely important. I'm not as disciplined as that Like.
Speaker 2:I wish I was and had a better structure to my work. But I do definitely need to leave certain things alone for a while and come back to it, and I tend, like the stuff that I like the most, that I've made has always not always, but most of the time sort of come out of like this, like in sesame need to finish it, like once I actually get to somewhere where I'm like actually this could be something, then it becomes much easier and I almost become obsessively. I become obsessed with finishing it and then obviously I'll leave it for a while and then go back and mix down and do all the details after what, because that's where my brain definitely loses it a little bit. But yeah, I've so far haven't found anyone that can deal with my mixing, so I'll have to do it myself. There's many people that are much better at it than I am, of course, technically, but it's just like the choices are.
Speaker 2:Mixing is definitely a very big part of my arrangements and composition and all that stuff, so it does require a lot of focus over a long time. So for me, when I, if I manage to finish a track, then I know that I'm more or less pleased with it, you know, and then that might not even make it on some. Really, you said some at the end, but like it's something, yeah yeah definitely a good idea, would break.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and definitely, I think. I think also, like you sort of mentioned, about how important mixing is and how you haven't found anyone yet that can do that, and you know also, you sort of mentioned that it's not so much about the fact that there are amazing mixers out there, but it's just it's about like finding people that understand your language, isn't it? And mixing is maybe part of the songwriting process itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's mostly. It is like I don't so far haven't felt the need to sort of delegate that part of the process, because I mean I have, I mean I have on previous releases like way back, but with the more recent ones is just, yeah, it doesn't make any sense. But I mean, having said that, I might, you know, do it next time. I don't know, it depends what, what it ends up being and what it what it needs and yeah. So we'll see. But yeah, mixing is an extremely creative part of the process for me.
Speaker 2:So, love it, love mixing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember when I used to make music that was one of my favorite processes as well, and editing as well, because it sort of felt and now what? Now, as a writer, like a lot, I love the editing process because it feels to me a little bit like architecture in a way. Not that I'm, would you know, I'm not a qualified architect, I'm not kind of comparing to being an architect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I also prefer editing text and writing it from scratch. I think it's easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and it can be quite fun and you can kind of feel the shape coming together as well. Yeah, and how did music come into your life? We go right back. Did you have like an early childhood experience of really connecting with music?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I grew up, I think my parents played a lot of classical music for us at home and I love that stuff. I used to dance around the living room not very graciously. So yeah, a lot of classical music. And then I played in the marching band as a kid. I play the clarinet and I love that. And then I played piano for a few years. Enjoy that. But then I quit when I was like 15 because I was an idiot.
Speaker 1:But when we're 15, we do, you know, we change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly yeah, but I did pick up a bit of like theory and skills, I guess, but I my piano playing is useless now, but but yeah, so it's. And then I sort of picked up the guitar. I think I learned a guitar and like music class in school, which was also really important, which is again emphasizes the need for like musical education, which I feel like more and more sadly. Yeah, quite a lot of music. All my siblings do or work with music. So I don't know what it is my parents did, but it wasn't like they forced it or anything like that, it was just like, yeah, I think we just all really like music, naturally.
Speaker 1:Were they musicians themselves?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean my mom, you know she would play and sing in church and stuff in Mexico, and then my dad used to play in a band, used to write songs, you know. Yeah, we all really like music.
Speaker 1:And you were great. This is the time you're growing up in Oslo.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Was there like a kind of sort of from the, from externally. Was there sort of a kind of a feeling around music at a time? Was there like a scene that we know, maybe when you got to 15 or a little bit older, like a, you know a scene going on that you were drawn to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I didn't really partake in any scenes, to be honest. It was mostly just hanging out with friends and being stupid and we listened to a lot of a lot of hip hop, mostly and like R&B and all this sort of late 90s, early 2000s stuff, which actually there's quite a lot of good stuff in there, to be fair. Yeah, yeah, so it was. I was, yeah, but I was really fascinated by by like hip hop and the way it like, especially like Wu Tang and Jizz and all that stuff. Like my friend showed me the Jizz, a Liquid Swords record, I never heard it before and I was like mind blown and I feel like that still resonates somehow in the way it's produced. But yeah, I didn't. I wasn't like part of a scene, like I didn't have friends that played in bands or anything like that. That sort of came later. Like I had a late blooming in terms of like I didn't start making music and like partaking in music in that way until like my mid 20s, you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Right, yeah, it's yeah, and I think I mean I think it's interesting as well because someone could listen to your music and not automatically kind of pick out like an early influence was Wu Tang. But in a lot of ways, in other ways it does make a lot of sense Because I mean it's sort of like I mean I think there's a lot of things we're influenced by that they don't transform into a sounding like that at all, but maybe there's something in the texture or the attitude.
Speaker 2:Loops.
Speaker 1:Loops Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, textures, psychedelic, repeated melodies and yeah, it's just like groove and like yeah stuff that's like slightly off, slightly off the grid somehow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely. And did you find like the idea that using loops to be quite a kind of liberating thing when it came to starting your own music?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm obsessed with loops. Sometimes it's actually I might be like making a whole track and then be like sick of it, and then I'll just loop or randomly loop apart, and then that becomes a new track, that, and then the other one goes to the bin. So it's like yeah again, but that's again about like obsessing over like textures or things that repeat itself and that, how they might reveal new, more interesting layers upon repeated listening. Listening, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think as well there's a connection between like hip hop loops and classical as well In terms of like minimalism, just this idea of repetition, and you know, you mentioned just about there about how things reveal and like, and in techno as well, this is just like the more we listen to something, the more that it kind of changes, the sound kind of evolves, or or maybe the music's not changing at all, but like the way we hear it changes as well.
Speaker 2:It changes. Yeah, yeah, I'm obsessed with that stuff.
Speaker 1:Definitely, and so sort of stepping into making music yourself. What was the kind of process for that? From being someone that was just liking music and playing it around the house to someone that was sort of stepping out and releasing music and actually making music for other people to hear?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like it sort of. It was something that I found, just that I just started playing the guitar again when I was living in London and like writing silly songs, and I think it's part like, in a way, a way for me to sort of reinvent myself, almost like to to create something that was my own, because I've been doing something that was very, not very rewarding for a few years. I mean, it was rewarding in other ways, I guess financially, but say, I was just like trying to create my own little space and like it was very, very sort of late. You know, it was very much a cliche process, I think.
Speaker 2:But then I started making some stuff and then it was just like random events that led to someone one producer guy from Norway hearing it and then telling this other producer friend of his to listen to it, and then we did some stuff together and then that was introduced to small, to your camera, small to and super sound, and then it was interesting and I mean listening back like it wasn't great. So I don't know what they heard, but something was there, I guess, and it was just like coincidences, to be honest, like I don't know whether I would be pursuing anything I don't know. Like it was chance to be fair, so and so it was.
Speaker 2:That was just became really fun and it was something that I really enjoyed doing, and it wasn't something I had like massive ambitions with it at all. It was just like oh, this is really fun. This is like a new way of this, is like a new side of me, and it's I'm listening to. I was listening to a lot of new music that I hadn't heard before and it was just like, yeah, definitely like. It was a lot of fun, very, quite experimental in a way, even though it was extremely obviously influenced by very, extremely obvious influences. But I had a lot of fun and sort of, I meant everything, I meant every word and I meant everything while I was making it. But I also that in retrospect, I was definitely, like you know, reinventing myself a little bit. So it's a little bit cringe, like thinking back on, like back, and it's just like, but I'm definitely glad I did.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. It's quite refreshing to hear someone speak so sort of critically about some of their work.
Speaker 2:No, I mean it's. There's some stuff in there that on the first record that's quite fun, like okay I guess, but like it's also a lot of like really kind of confused, but I kind of liked that. It's kind of bonkers that record is like and we were having a lot of fun and it was definitely very like I was. I'm actually quite proud of how open I was to like really going way out there in the sounds and the way it was composed and, you know, trusting the influence of Emil, who taught me a lot in this like in terms of studio techniques and editing and all that stuff. But then also like trusting myself to be able to finish off the rest of the record by myself and like so. So there's a lot of good stuff with it. Like I'm certain parts of it but I cannot listen to it. Like I'm not sure, like I will not listen to it or like it's yeah, it's definitely like it feels a bit posy sometimes as well, like I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I was like in my twenties and like I'll forgive it.
Speaker 1:I mean this is. I mean this is sleeper you're talking about. Yeah, I mean, I enjoy listening to it. Obviously, I didn't make it, so I don't have that connection and I can definitely relate to things that music and writing that I've done in the past, that I think oh my God. But also viewing it as a stepping stone and also much about learning process for me as well at the time. And so it sounds like that, because you were. I mean, if I'm right in my facts and I might be wrong you were modelling before this and so you were making money from this. So because of that, did you feel that the music was something? Because you had like, perhaps a financial cushion that you could like relax with and find what you were doing, rather than sort of think, okay, this is going to be my career initially.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, I never, I never, sort of I was. I guess I hoped a little bit that I might get like some shows and like have some fun, like get some set like my life on a new experience or something you know.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I definitely had a very lucky at the time Now I feel for musician. But yeah, I had a good financial base, which was because of that job that I was doing. But yeah, no, it was, yeah, it was, it was a fun experiment for sure. But it definitely screams of somebody who has no idea what her voice is yet at all. But, like, I kind of and I guess most people would spend more time developing that or figuring it out or having some fun with them or whatever but I kind of liked that. It was just so free and just like fuck it, let's just go with it and have fun, and that was all I could do at the time.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and so when you, when you started to transform and the music was evolved over the last 10 years, were there definite things that you were used to after while you started to sort of aim for with the music? Or again, was it just like an unfurling natural process, like the, the letting go of the vocal aspect and the kind of expanding of the sort of sonic textures? Was that something that was, you know, fought out or just part of the flow?
Speaker 2:I think it definitely started up by just being part of the flow in a way, but it definitely was a conscious choice to cut out all the vocals after that second record, because I it was just like a relief, it was like more fun and it just flowed easier. My English is so.
Speaker 1:No, that's I mean. I'm I'm feeling embarrassed. I've been in Berlin for almost six years and the level of German I can speak is embarrassing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, my English is like what's going on, but anyway, um, yeah, no it. So that was with both lines will be blue. That record, that was just like it came out so easily and I had been doing some instrumental stuff already a couple of instrumental bits on the record before that and stuff, so and I always really enjoyed doing it. And, like you said, it's just like about creating all this how do you call it like details and stuff in the base of a song, and that became just the whole thing instead and allow me to spend all that time on that instead which is I really enjoyed. So it was just like a really natural sort of switch and I guess in a way it was conscious, because I didn't quite I didn't have that much more to say vocally, I didn't feel I never really enjoyed writing lyrics. I'm not a very good lyricist at all, so I sort of feel like I've sort of got all that crap off my chest with those other records and then it just felt so easy and so it sort of felt right, yeah, and I guess that's what happened. So then after that my productions have been mostly sort of that and, yeah, I guess we're like only love from now on.
Speaker 2:I had a sort of idea of what I wanted to do, or a hand, but without like knowing exactly what it would shape up to be, because it's usually I usually have to have it like maybe one or two touchstone tracks that I've made that go I can build on. So I guess my the only sort of things that I said to myself was that I wanted to have like more dub influences and and like with a mix of like cosmic free jazz, somehow like touchstone, and I don't remember if I had anything else, but like those were like touchstones for that. And yeah, and I think I managed to bring that in in a way. So that, yeah. So I guess there was some sort of conscious thought of what I wanted to do, but it wasn't like oh, exactly this, and like I don't, I'm not gonna get at like you know, planning and sketching out something before it happens.
Speaker 2:So I guess it's yeah. And now, like thinking of the next music, there's definitely more of a like, there's an avenue. I want to go down Right and, I guess, research and investigate and then see what comes out of that and at the moment it's like either it might merge into, it might work and merge into one whole thing or might split into two things. I don't know yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exciting stages then. Really isn't it that kind of that point where we kind of you were talking earlier on about the, the sort of joy of editing, but like also that sort of stage where you know is idea gathering and things are emerging and there could be like a, a crossroad ahead of where it can go? And and do you feel like in any sense of the you know, because you have kind of created an identity now that people recognize with the sound, do you feel that that is a constraint at all? Or, you know, could, could there be a complete reinvention that just organically happens as well? Do you do you feel like you have to keep hold of what you're doing now?
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I think there's definitely more. There's more pressure somehow in myself. There's a lot of fieldness, pressure from the outside world. To be honest, I mean all myself, because I'm very self critical and very I'm a perfectionist in many ways and a control freak, but yeah, so this definitely that I am aware of what I sort of there's a different ways. I mean, in one way it's like what could work live? Because I've been a lot of live, more than I have ever done, and it's I really enjoy it and it's, you know, it's an extremely important way to connect and like music out there and meet people and meet all these other amazing musicians and people that created people. But also it's the way that I make money, the only way, yeah, so it's like there's definitely part of me that is thinking like, okay, what could work, that I want to try to think what could work as a that could become a really solid live show, more so than this time around, because this time it was only about the record, but then I also don't really want to. That also creates certain limitations, but I'm kind of curious what that could could be. Maybe those limitations might be interesting for me. We'll see At the end of the day is like like I'll always choose whatever is best for the music.
Speaker 2:I hope like fingers crossed, but there's definitely that aspect of it and yeah, and I definitely think that I've sort of found my way into sort of my own thing, while at the same time and I think because of this music for this like dance, performance and stuff that I'm I'm managing to find that well, I will try to continue to find a balance between that sort of more electronic sort of worlds, experimental, electronic, whatever you want to call it, but also like the more contemporary music side of it, which is more for like arts, and if I can manage to balance those things and find that interesting, I guess, then that is sort of where I'm at at the moment, but yeah, so I guess that's part of like, yeah, it's partly confidence in my own music. So, yes, there's definitely pressure in a way, but yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 2:I don't like again because I don't really know what anything is until I've finished it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is good, because that's kind of just. That's like having agency and over your own stuff as well, isn't it? Which is just? I think that is. I mean, that's probably one of the most important things and artists can feel is that that it is theirs ultimately at the end of the day. You know it's not anyone else's until maybe it's put out and people kind of like have their own relationships with it, but it is your work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, if that changes, then I don't think that's going to change because the people I work with are extremely, you know, open and great, so I think that's going to be fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and on a dance project as well. Were you working to that, you know? Were you working to a different kind of brief or were we working with choreography? That was already laid out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean choreographer Esther Solomon. She had yeah, she definitely had her whole idea laid out. It was more going through the different scenes with her and sort of sound setting, I suppose, the scenes. So it's a very collaborative project, but it was really really fascinating, yeah.
Speaker 1:And with the DJing as well. I was watching your set on on Hoare radio the other day and I mean I was fascinated with that because, particularly living in Berlin, like every day I see someone I know or someone, an artist that I was welcome into stepping into that yellow booth and the impressions I always get from them is it's a little bit anticlimactic, the surroundings on it, when the stuff that comes out is always really good, and how was that experience for you?
Speaker 2:It's fine. I mean I was. I was a bit stressed out before, not because of that, but I was just like traveling and like rushing through and rush to try to get some food beforehand, so I was like it was really hot in there, but no, it's good, I enjoy. I enjoy DJing and yeah, it's definitely weird to have a camera in your face, but I try not to think about that. To be honest, like I was just like it's just a camera or whatever. I'm just trying not to fuck up too much, which I probably did a little bit, but whatever.
Speaker 1:I think you can kind of style it out with DJing as well, can't you? To a certain degree? I mean, I haven't DJed for a couple of years but unless you know, you've got to keep everyone on the dance floor. But I think even then, you know, there's definitely an element of styling it out. I mean, I don't think people really notice. You can kind of go yeah, that was intentional.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I mean I much prefer DJing for dance, for for sure, because then it's like it's more natural space for that. So I mean, you know, djing in front of a camera is kind of it's weird. It's weird, I mean a lot of people enjoy it, I guess, so why not? But yeah, no, I really enjoy DJing dance, because then you can really, if you get in the mood, you know, if you feel the energy, you can just really go out there and like I like to layer tons of stuff on top of each other and like, yeah, it's really, it's really creative way to listen to other people's music, but also like edit and yeah, I think it's really fun.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's, I enjoy that, but I'm not like I wouldn't say I'm like the best DJ in the world, but like, yeah, I enjoyed it's really nice to listen to music loudly.
Speaker 1:Definitely definitely and I think that's a just flow state have an effect on you when you're DJing as well. Do you ever have those points where you know it just kind of goes automatically in? You know you feel connected to the surroundings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has. I mean, I haven't DJed that much, to be honest, but I have had a few moments where it's been like really, really fun, where it's just like, but yeah, it's all about what happens on the dance floor, how people react, and might not even be like super crowded floor, it could be just a moment, you know, and then that's what I think. It's what I like about DJing is like it's like more of a flat structure thing, is like it's well, that's what it's meant to be. I know it's not necessarily the case anymore, but with DJs on stages and everyone watching the DJ which is really weird I find that really really bizarre. But yeah, so I really enjoy that.
Speaker 2:It's like the energy you get from each other, and then I guess the DJ has some sort of power because you decide the music. But yeah, and what I enjoy the most is like the more far out you play, the more people like it, and that's kind of like that. I really like that. I very rarely play the stuff that I find boring, because then I don't I'm not a professional DJ like that and then it happens, and then and do you get that?
Speaker 1:Do you get a similar kind of flow state when you're playing live, your music as well, when you're doing a live show? Or is there just a lot to concentrate on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes it depends. But yeah, there's a lot of stuff to concentrate on and like and also after a while, you played it so many times but sometimes also, depending on the audience and the response and the space, and yeah, everything, when everything comes together it's like really amazing. But it's usually due to the audience, whether what sort of energy that that would back from there.
Speaker 1:I. Audiences are amazing, aren't they? I mean, it's a really dumb thing for me to say, but you know just the how I. But I also think it's like what you were saying about the bad side of DJing, or just like the kind of stadium kind of the DJ on the stage kind of thing which has come up in the last bunch of years, so it almost like kind of gets rid of the idea that the audience have a say or have any kind of role in what's going on. The audience has just become like, you know, audience to seize a band at Wembley Stadium or something.
Speaker 2:The audience that pays the money to come in and spend money on drinks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, but the artist is going to do exactly the same thing, whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's really weird, especially with the DJ thing, like I understand like the audience set up with the show, because that's more of a set up, I guess. But I mean, I also really love when the stages lower down to the ground, you know stuff like that. Well, spaces that are interesting or where it changes the dynamic a little bit, I find really interesting. But yeah, clubs with stages, that where people stare at the DJ, they're so weird. If I'm somewhere and there's a DJ playing, like I'll tend to like stand with my back to them, not because of disrespect to them, but like just to like be an asshole and prove what I'm trying to prove.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I'm like, come on, what's wrong with you people?
Speaker 1:No, I think I've definitely done that. I mean, occasionally I kind of want to turn to the DJ is a sort of way of kind of going, yes, nice. I like, I like definitely is a dance floor. It's a dance floor. For a reason it's not called just that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not an auditorium. Yeah, exactly Like you don't have to be with your back to the DJ as a protest, but it's just like around you meant to dance like not stare.
Speaker 1:And I guarantee it will make the DJ happy as well.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And what you know. What would you I mean, there's been such an evolution with your music and what would you go back to telling you a younger self when you were at that point where you were just starting to, music was just materializing as a thing, like as an object. What do you feel that you've learned? That you would go back and tell you younger self?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't. I don't know if I would necessarily change anything, because everything's been kind of fun. I would maybe. I don't know, it's difficult to decide because like there might be like practical stuff like you don't need five people in the band because it's too expensive to tour with anyone yeah, that's one thing, but that I learned that. And then now either just me or me and Joanna, when I can afford to, yeah, and then like take your time or I don't know.
Speaker 2:But I have done that, so I don't think I would change. I mean, of course I would change loads of stuff like this hasn't been easy at all. I've been in ages. But yeah, I guess, be patient and it happens when it's meant to happen, maybe if it, if it happens, oh, yeah, it's meant to be. I don't, I'm not like that at all, but if it, yeah, if it materializes, it should happen, it should evolve, and there's nothing wrong with like taking time with the evolving and working out what your thing is, I guess, and take all the stepping stones that you can find and hopefully that will lead somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really nice way of saying it, because I feel, I definitely feel there's a lot of pressure, particularly on young people to evolve quicker than they're ready as well. You know, and I think a lot of times, particularly creativity isn't? You know, it's not a science or it's not like a badge that you suddenly is not like a degree that you suddenly get that says right, I've a title of being creative, it's something, it's like a practice, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a never ending practice and it has to be, has to be based on curiosity, at least for me, and yeah, and I think also what depends what you want to do. But like, yeah, the whole hype machine thing, like people sort of shooting up in the air on the first or second record, and that's not necessarily the only way to succeed. You know, even even in, like the experiment, experimental scene or whatever, I think it's okay to spend time building your craft, I guess, and but I mean to be, I am lucky. You know it's like it's taking forever, but it's. Yeah, but it's. But I'm older now and that's okay and it's, it's working at the moment. So, yeah, so patients, I guess.
Speaker 1:Patients definitely patients as a virtue.
Speaker 2:Yeah and hard work and yeah don't give up.
Speaker 1:Okay, common. Thank you so much. Thank you, okay. So that was me, paul Hanford, talking with Carmen villain for lost and sound podcast, and we had that conversation the 11th of October 2023. Our most recent release, music for the living monuments, is out now. Audio Technica are global but still family run company, and I love their stuff. I'm speaking to you right now wearing their headphones. I don't think I would feel good about like having a sponsor, but I didn't really love, so I'm super chuffed If you like their stuff. If you haven't tried this stuff, head on over to audiotechnicacom to find out more. My book coming to Berlin is available in all good bookshops or via velocity breath, the publisher's website. I'd like to thank Tom Goodens, who does the music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode, but mostly, I'd like to thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're having a really lovely day evening, morning, some other time that I don't know about and I'll see you soon. Well, I'll catch you soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah.