This week we get deep on the dancefloor with Paul Rose, famed as Scuba — the DJ, producer, label owner, promoter and pocaster whose been shaping the world of bass-heavy electronic music over the last two decades with style. From his roots in the London underground garage scene to his adventures in Berlin, Scuba's sonic journey has been nothing short of transformative. We dissect his new mix tape, Digital Underground, a tribute to early hardcore rave.
Our conversation doesn't stop at Scuba's triumphant career. We also delve into the challenges of juggling multiple roles in the dynamic landscape of music. Scuba shares his philosophies on the pressure young artists face in self-promotion on social media, alongside revealing how he finds diverse outlets for expression. We discuss the indispensability of persistence, the importance of taking a break, and the intersection of his personal and professional life.
As we rewind to the 90s club culture, we reflect on how Scuba's early encounters in the London music scene have shaped his perceptions of today's music environment. We examine the evolution of the atmosphere from then to now, emphasizing the increased focus on safety. Our exploration expands to the post-industrial music scene of Berlin and its influence on Scuba's music production. Finally, we navigate the complexities of purism in music, the idea of authenticity, and the significance of striking a balance between being open-minded and maintaining a perspective.
Presented and produced by Paul Hanford
Paul Hanford on Instagram
Listen to Scuba’s ’Not A Diving Podcast’ here.
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Subscribe to the Lost and Sound Substack for fresh updates and writing here.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
This week we get deep on the dancefloor with Paul Rose, famed as Scuba — the DJ, producer, label owner, promoter and pocaster whose been shaping the world of bass-heavy electronic music over the last two decades with style. From his roots in the London underground garage scene to his adventures in Berlin, Scuba's sonic journey has been nothing short of transformative. We dissect his new mix tape, Digital Underground, a tribute to early hardcore rave.
Our conversation doesn't stop at Scuba's triumphant career. We also delve into the challenges of juggling multiple roles in the dynamic landscape of music. Scuba shares his philosophies on the pressure young artists face in self-promotion on social media, alongside revealing how he finds diverse outlets for expression. We discuss the indispensability of persistence, the importance of taking a break, and the intersection of his personal and professional life.
As we rewind to the 90s club culture, we reflect on how Scuba's early encounters in the London music scene have shaped his perceptions of today's music environment. We examine the evolution of the atmosphere from then to now, emphasizing the increased focus on safety. Our exploration expands to the post-industrial music scene of Berlin and its influence on Scuba's music production. Finally, we navigate the complexities of purism in music, the idea of authenticity, and the significance of striking a balance between being open-minded and maintaining a perspective.
Presented and produced by Paul Hanford
Paul Hanford on Instagram
Listen to Scuba’s ’Not A Diving Podcast’ here.
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Subscribe to the Lost and Sound Substack for fresh updates and writing here.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
DJ discourse, eclecticism versus purity, the lost world of smoking cigarettes on the dance floor these are just some of the things that you're about to hear. Over the next hours, we're going to be doing a deep dive into the last 20 years of underground electronic music culture with someone who sidestepped their way ahead through this era. There is a pun in there somewhere. But first, lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica. Audio Technica are a global but still family-run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones. They make studio quality yet really affordable products because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to AudioTechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. Hello and welcome to Lost and Sound. I'm Paul Hanford, I'm your host, I'm a writer, author, a university lecturer, a former DJ based in Berlin, where I'm speaking to you now from. And this is the show where, each episode, I have conversations with the musical innovators, the outsiders, the mavericks, the artists that do their own unique thing, and we talk about music, we talk about life, we talk about creativity basically the things that inspire us to make the things that we make. Previous guests on the show have included Peaches, suzanne Chiani, jim O'Rourke, chilly Gonzalez, ghost Poet, cosy Funny, tutti, graham Coxson, sleaford Mods, mickey Blanco and First and More. And today on the show you're going to hear a conversation I had with DJ producer, label owner, club promoter and, more recently, a podcaster himself Scuba. My book Coming to Berlin is available in all good bookshops and I really mean that All good bookshops. If a bookshop doesn't have it, that bookshop is fucking shit or via the publisher's website, velocity Press. Okay, so I apologize about my delivery today. I'm a little bit under the weather. I've had a bit of a sick week this week, but I'm picking up and I'm really happy to be able to put out this conversation I had about a week ago with Scuba.
Speaker 1:Paul Rose is Scuba's real name. Over the last 20 years he's been someone that's really helped shape and define the definition, the direction of bass, heavy electronic music, emerging originally out of London's underground garage scene as it sort of morphed into dubstep as a DJ, but also with his imprint label, hot Flush, which has over the years helped launch the careers of people like Mount Kimby, joy Orbison the list goes on. He's made five artist albums as Scuba to date. There are albums that I'd sort of described as being like diaries sonic diaries of where he's at at that time. So they always evolve, they always confound expectations and push boundaries, and this began in 2008 with his album A Mutual Antipathy, which we talk a little bit about in the podcast which he made after he moved to Berlin, and it's melancholic. It's after coming out of the London club scene. It's full of huge swathes of atmosphere. It's an album that could be described as being dark and depressing, but maybe that's just kind of really what I like myself and it does to me sound like Berlin.
Speaker 1:He also, in his time in the city, set up a dubstep night that ran for five years at Bergein. He's crafted mixes for DJ Kicks, the Fabric and Oskut. I always say that wrong Oskut, tottenfucking Hell mate. I'm still not totally with it. I can tell you about. Apologies about my delivery today. He also won DJ Mag Best Live Act Award in 2013. He's got a new mix tape coming out, digital Underground, which is out on the 10th of November, which, if you're listening to the podcast this podcast, the week it comes out is Friday and it's a super fun lesson it feels like kind of equating the same artists that made a mutual antipathy to the digital underground mix tape is like a dot to dots of how someone, how an artist, really works on what their guts tell them to do and what they feel. The underground is a fun kind of collage of old school hardcore, little bits of two step of like old rave, but slightly modernized. Given a twist, it's fun. It's a really, really, really fun record.
Speaker 1:He's also a podcaster. I might have mentioned as well. His show Not a Diving Podcast, is one of the best music podcasts around. He really knows how to get deep and talk with guests. I was a guest on his show about a month ago I'll put a link to that in the hyperdescription type thing on the podcast the blurby, blurby stuff and I really, really enjoyed him talking to me. So it was really interesting to swap chairs really and to ask Scooby some questions and he's a really thoughtful, insightful bloke. He has a lot of opinions, but they're informed, intelligent opinions about DJ discourse, about culture, and this is what happens when I caught up with Paul Rose aka Scoober. Thanks so much for chatting with me today. How are things? How are you doing? Are you good?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1:No worries, no worries. Yeah, I mean, it's quite rare that I actually speak to another Paul. Actually, I don't know if you found that in your experiences. I don't know many Pauls. There's lots of like Tom's and stuff, but not many Pauls, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:absolutely. I don't know why that is Lack of pious parents, maybe Around that kind of a dime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe there's just lots of Pauls in other fields like banking and we're kind of outliers to the Paul name. I don't know.
Speaker 2:That's our possibility too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you're over the 20 or so years of being very visible during what you're doing as Scoober. You've been a DJ, a producer, a label owner, a club promoter and a podcaster too, although these things haven't all concurred exactly at the same time. How do you manage to split your time up? How do you manage to sort of jump from these different things? Is it quite an effort, or does it feel very effortless for you to flow between these different things?
Speaker 2:Well, doing the podcast every week has definitely added an extra layer of intensity to the whole thing. I mean, as you know, in and of itself it's a pretty big commitment. But I mean, that's, I guess, like anything you kind of get used to the ebb and flow of it and you kind of get into a routine. I think at any given time and this has been true at any point in the last couple of decades there's one area that is being neglected. So I kind of rotate the thing that I'm not paying as much attention to as I should be. So I don't know, I mean it's kind of a challenge, for sure, keeping as many plates in the air as I want to do, but in terms of just keeping myself motivated and interested and excited about what I'm doing on a kind of database, it's important for me and, yeah, I mean I think the fact that I do still enjoy the whole thing I'm still kind of like plugging away after what is quite a long time now, I guess suggests that something is going right at some level.
Speaker 1:Anyway, yeah, I love what you're saying about it being important to you. So it's not like because I feel like a lot of the time, particularly like younger artists, to sort of feel that they have to do this, they have to do this, you know, promote themselves on the socials. It's really stretched themselves. But there's also that kind of creative way of looking at it that, if you know, if you're a kind of music curator, you live in music, that you do want to express yourself in different ways. Has it always been the case for you that there's just different outlets for different forms of expression?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, I think what you're referring to is well, it's a big change, I think, in what is expected of people. I think, particularly in quote unquote underground music, you know, there is a real expectation that you sell yourself now in a way which was actually kind of seen as being, you know, a bit lame actually, you know, in days gone by. But I mean, I think I always thought that was a bit of a ridiculous way of looking at it, though I always thought that you know it's incumbent upon you to get yourself out there. And you know, I think the idea that you can wait around for it to happen, in this kind of like mythical bedroom producer kind of a way, I think that was always bullshit. But I think perhaps now the pressures of you know, I think it's gone swung back too far, you know, I think I think the expectation upon people to spend so much of their time doing the selling versus the making, I think is pretty unhealthy actually. So I haven't answered your question. What was your actual question?
Speaker 1:No, just, please, please, just go on the flow of it. That's what it's about. I mean, I think I was kind of asking you about about how you managed to jump between different things, and was that always like kind of quite important for you to express yourself through the all of these different platforms?
Speaker 2:and me, I mean, to be honest, yes, I suppose in hindsight, but I think the way that it's developed over time has been much more kind of accidental and much more haphazard. So, you know, you kind of acquire things along the way and then if you're, you know, I think I suppose if you're enjoying them enough to carry on doing them, then that's a good sign. But I think that you know it's, it's a. It's a it's a question of being consistent, I think, with everything, and I think that's what gives you longevity in doing anything, to be honest. So it's a question of, like, acquiring things, keeping them going, making them good, but being persistent, you know, and not losing heart when things don't immediately go the way you want them to.
Speaker 2:And you know, when you take that approach, when it does eventually work, then you know that's a really great feeling. You know so that, and in itself, wanting to replicate that can become a motivating factor as you kind of like get further down the road. So I mean it's it's a difficult thing to recommend. You know, taking on loads and loads of stuff and having too much to do at all times, I mean it's not necessarily something that I would say to you know, a young person starting out. This is the way to do it? I'm not completely sure that it is, but you know, I think well, like anything in life, you've got to find a way that works for you. You know, personally, and for whatever reason, this, this approach, seems to work for me over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think you mentioned about consistency, and that's very much a key thing. There are times when we just don't feel like we're being consistent though as well, aren't there? There are times where you just have to step away, and if there have been times in your career where you've kind of felt, you know, I just can't do this right now, at the moment, you know I need to just step away and fuck consistency.
Speaker 2:Well, I suppose that is the, that is the bonus, or that is the you know, the positive of having so many things that you could be doing, Because and like I said, like at any given moment, there is one of the things that I should be doing which is not receiving as much attention, you know, and so when you do get pissed off or something, there's always something else to be doing, you know so, which is not necessarily, again, massively healthy way of conducting your working life. But, you know, I mean, I've had a couple of periods where the whole thing got too much, which I suppose, maybe, is what you were getting at, and I think, I think that's just part of life, though, isn't it really? I think it's just inevitable that there are, there are moments in which you begin to feel overwhelmed by, you know, by life.
Speaker 2:I suppose, and you know, and you know, I guess that's that's one thing, that's being, I guess, working for yourself and being in this kind of working structure like it does bleed into your personal life, it becomes your whole life basically, which is just not not the case when you know if you're, if you're working nine to five which I have done, which I did do for a few years before I was able to go pro, as it were, and it is all encompassing and that in itself can become a kind of reinforcing thing too. So I mean, yeah, it's, it can be difficult and I have, like I said, had a couple of periods where it did go a bit too much. But you know, at the end of the day I would rather be doing this and doing anything else, and sometimes you need to step back and get reaffirmed that to yourself. But I mean, hopefully that doesn't happen too often.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. I find that sometimes those times you need to step back, that's when perhaps you've been in a groove of doing, focusing in one way for a while and maybe things have changed a bit on the outside or also with you, and taking a step back helps you kind of recalibrate as well. You found times because you know you're such an eclectic artist as well and you know you jumped through different styles but they've always sounded like your productions Is that always? Has that been like kind of beneficial to you to sort of take a step back for that reason?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean certainly using that example. The example of making music is absolutely on the money. I find that a change is as good as a rest a lot of the time in that kind of way, and I think that probably explains, like you say, what I've talked around so much mechanistically over the years, and I just enjoy messing about and doing different stuff, though to be honest and it is inspiring, it is motivating.
Speaker 2:You do get into a kind of repetitive cycle after a while, and that can be a positive, though that's a result of hitting something which works, or it can be anyway it should be. And when you do hit something that works, then yeah, absolutely milk it for as much as can be milked from that. But, like anything, there is a finite amount that can be got out of anything, and at that point you have to do something else, to step back, to find a way of regaining a bit of focus, regaining a bit of perspective, as you were saying. Like that process in and of itself can be the best bit, I guess.
Speaker 1:And on that note, next week, which will be the week that people will be listening to this podcast you've got a mixtape, digital underground, coming out and it seems to be like this really, you know, comparing it to your albums as scuba or a lot of your other stuff, it feels like very, very rammed full. You know a lot of your other work. You know there's all about the kind of minimalism and the space between sounds, whereas digital underground there's a lot of like early hardcore, there's a lot of breaks and techno. It feels like there's a lot of formative influences going on there. Can you tell me a little bit about how this project came together?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, actually it's a great example of that previous thing that we just touched upon, right? So I guess, well, I think it started off as quite a self-indulgent project, to be honest, like just sitting down every morning and writing a tech like a hardcore track, an old school hardcore track, which was just hugely enjoyable to me. I can imagine, yeah, right, because it's, you know, there is so much fun that music anyway. And then and it's so much fun trying to figure out, kind of reverse engineer, how they did it and, like you know, try and put a little bit of a fresh spin on it. And you know you're not reinventing the wheel there at all, you know, but that's absolutely fine, you know, everything has got to be that. And I just really enjoyed doing it, you know, and I wasn't intending, it wasn't like I've got a, I wasn't like I sat down to write an album, like that at all. It was, it was really a result. Actually, I tell you what it was.
Speaker 2:I wrote the score for from a film movie two years ago and that was a real struggle for me because, you know, when electronic producers get asked to score films, they usually like a kind of sci-fi or kind of a dark kind of thing and I was scoring a score in comedy. Oh right, it was very, very difficult to do. It really was, I mean what we actually what it's had now, as I was, it was great, it was. You know, it was looking back at, it was a great process. It was really a huge amount but it was tough, right, and I had numerous disagreements with the director about stylistic, you know, kind of like the, the, the beats of certain scenes that he wanted done in certain ways and I can't be like. So I was, and I was doing my usual power control freak thing, which was not helpful at all, but but I have to, you know, have to say it turned out fine.
Speaker 2:But at the end of that process I was like, right, what's the furthest away that I can get from scoring a modern comedy flick? And I'm writing old school hardcore was essentially what I alighted on and, like I said, it was just a lot of fun really and I just churned out so many of those tunes and so we've done two twelves and then the mix tape thing. So it was like I don't know it's 20 or tracks or something in total, but I actually finished, but there must have been another 20 or 30 that I kind of got quite far down the road with. So it was just yeah, like I said, it was just fun and sometimes that's the best way. I mean I should say that sometimes having fun in the studio is not a good thing.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it could be like you know, like I said, like more on that kind of self indulgent thing what is? Enjoyable to do isn't always enjoyable to listen to, but I think in this case the two things coalesced happily.
Speaker 1:I mean, I definitely feel that from listening to it, the fun of it, and was that also the idea of it being a mix tape rather than being kind of classified as an album that it's not part of, like the sort of general lineage of what you're doing. It's a, it's a piece of fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's the reason why I wanted to call it a mix tape, because I mean the albums that I've done previously. I have sat down to write a you know album in capital letters, so, and it wasn't like that at all and I'm, you know, I'm pretty happy with the way my album projects turned out and I look at them. I haven't actually released one for a long time now, but the kind of body of work that stares my album projects is something that I'm, I want to say, proud of. But, like you know, I'm not I'm not completely comfortable with using that word.
Speaker 1:I know what you mean yeah.
Speaker 2:But with this it was very obviously different you know, so it had to be something you know had to be sort of described in a different kind of a way, and you know it is. It is literally a mix tape. You know you can listen to it as long as it finishes. No gaps in it, just like you know it's supposed to be like. Well, I mean, the way I put the final thing together was almost like one of those tape packs you got from you know raves back in the day. So that's kind of how, that's kind of the general vibe of it, you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's funny how, you know, I love those old tapes. I used to go to the local market and every Sunday there'd be a fresh bunch of these tapes, you know, and and also like the rave artwork as well. It's funny how it's become like part of history now, isn't it? And I mean, I feel like we're in a roughly similar age bracket, you know, and I wanted to know like what, when did what? Did you have like really early experiences with electronic music or just music in general, like that kind of really informed you stepping into doing this for a living?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I my first memory, as it were, of electronic stuff or certainly stuff which is some music, which is which would have been played at raves, Some. I was on a school trip like a week away with school kind of thing, and it was. It was our year and there was a year above. With there as well, One of the kids from the year above had had one of those tapes, one of those tape packs, and it would have been. I guess it would have been this kind of that kind of era, so like 92. So I mean, I was born in 79. So I was like 13, 12 or 13 in 92.
Speaker 2:So, and it was that music basically, and I remember it just to be just being just completely captivated immediately by the helium vocals especially. I mean it's all kind of like vocal hooks or something like that and you know, and the beats and I just thought it was so cool immediately. But then, you know, didn't have any direct link to it until a couple years later when I started going out to clubs, when I was, I guess, like just turned 15 or that or you know that sort of. Yeah, 94, 95, it would have been maybe end of 94. And, you know went to a whole load of those early also. I guess it's like the late period of early jungle, if you see what I mean.
Speaker 2:And just loved it and but also it's techno stuff and was just like not very picky really about the kind of music that I was going to go raving to and, you know, did a whole load of drugs as well, which obviously helps and you know, just really just kind of embraced the whole thing. It just just has, you know, so much fun with it and it was, I feel, extremely fortunate to be to have been living in London during that period really, because it was like I mean you could say like maybe it would have been three or four years earlier, would have been the real sweet spot. But I mean, you know, the mid 90s were great, absolutely great in terms of the, the stuff that was on offer in London, the kind of variety of it and just the ability to get into the clubs as well if you wanted to, if you're, you know, get some fake ID and get in, and you know it was just without. You know it's very easy to be starry eyed about it, but it genuinely was pretty amazing. And it's kind of weird to think that now and that was also a time that Brit Pot was going on and obviously Brit Pot was heavily referencing the 60s and where we are now, I think is basically in in in time, like in relational time, similar periods to, you know, the mid 90s now versus the 60s. Then I like kind of, I kind of see like people like Fred again, a sort of Brit prop artists of today, basically.
Speaker 2:And which is fine, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's weird being able to see it in its historical perspective. You know, having close, quite interested in the Brit Pot bands and I obviously knew, you know, I knew the Beatles and I knew the kind of historical context of the music. But when you have, when you've been there, it's very different, right, when you can actually remember the stuff first hand. That the new stuff is referencing is a bit of a strange sensation, to be honest. But yeah, I mean just generally speaking, like the early experience I had were just uniformly positive basically, even even at those raves which were a bit dangerous and you know there were some fights going on and whatever. That was part of the fun to me, you know it was like that sense of danger was absolutely part of the attraction to the whole thing. It really felt like you were in something, you know, that mattered, you know and you know, and culture, real culture, you know. So yeah, it was, it was great.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I love those reflections. It's interesting what you're saying about the danger as well, because I mean, obviously I only know what is around me and the experiences of people I know and myself. But I feel that in the 90s like I love the way you describe the 90s there was this huge sense of optimism. You know, you had Britpop as well and, like all of these very fresh scenes of you know, electronic music was still very, very new in reaching people on dance floors, but there was this sort of sense of like people. I don't know if you remember this or if it's the same few, but I feel like people are a lot nicer to each other now than they were in the 90s. Like it was maybe because of like lad culture or whatever, but I remember like me and my friends were all just really horrible to each other and horrible to everyone. You know what I mean. You know, and there was this sense of sort of violence when you'd go to clubs as well, you know. Did you sort of feel that yourself?
Speaker 2:And I see what you're referring to. Yeah, I can recognise that as something which is some. There has been a change, yeah, in the way that people act, I mean. I'm not sure it's necessarily entirely a good thing, though, to be honest.
Speaker 2:In what way? Well, I think that I think that the way people are nicer to each other now is largely superficial and you know, like I said, that sense of danger that I'm referring to, it's not something that I just felt in the 90s. I've spoken a good few times, actually, about feeling a similar sort of thing. The first time I went to Burkine and in fact I think we talked about this on my show.
Speaker 2:And it's not necessarily. It's not necessarily like a feeling of physical, like impending violence, it's not necessarily that. I think it's more just a sense of being out of your comfort zone, I suppose, but then also like the sensation that anything can happen in this situation. And I think maybe what the way I feel about the equivalent stuff now is that I don't have that impression that anything can happen at all. It feels very Well, comparatively speaking anyway. It feels very sterile and it feels like a bit too stage-managed and I think you lose something when you lose that sense of unpredictability and that sense that I mean.
Speaker 2:The word danger implies, like I said, a sense of physical jeopardy. It's not necessarily just that, but the fact that, like I said, everything is in play does imply that too. So I don't know I'm kind of on the side of the fence that I think safety is taken a bit too seriously these days. I think there should be a bit more. I think people should have a little leeway to do what they feel without having a strong arm of the law whether it's literally the law or otherwise hanging over them.
Speaker 1:I mean I 100% agree with you, to be honest. I mean obviously this is quite a precarious thing to sort of say, but I definitely feel like even things like smoking, I feel like I love going on, 100% agree with that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fucking hell. Going to a bar in Berlin and being able to have a cigarette is like I really I don't like being shunted outside when I go back to London or most other cities and it just feels like a little bit like yeah, I know cigarettes are really dangerous, but like so what? So is everything there's so many things in life that are dangerous, that are still perhaps you know we're still encouraged to partake in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm not a smoker, but I really think you should be able to smoke in bars and clubs genuinely do, and I think the smoking ban when it came in in the UK did an unbelievable damage to the club scene and disproportionately to small venues. It really did. It was extremely damaging to the culture and it's telling, I think, that you know, in Germany because it's supposed to be an EU-wide law.
Speaker 2:Right, it's supposed to be a directive and Germany just ignored it basically until very recently, which is kind of crazy. But I mean, I do think that having those sorts of regulations and it's very easy to get into a sort of party political, partisan kind of debate here but I genuinely think that there should be less done by government. And that really does sound like a political thing, doesn't it? But I genuinely believe it to be true. I think, particularly in like small venues, you know, I can understand why, you know, and I can understand there being a law against smoking in the workplace quote-unquote and in offices and all that kind of stuff. That's fine, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:But I feel like there should be some reasonable opt-out available for areas where you know, areas which are kind of culturally fragile, potentially and that's what we did find out, you know, by that smoking ban Like but actually the culture of underground music in the UK was pretty fragile and was really badly damaged, I think, by the smoking ban, and obviously, you know it's kind of reset itself now and you know, everyone going out now lot by and large don't remember a time when there was smoking, or the majority of the audience anyway Don't remember a time when there was smoking.
Speaker 2:But you know, I think that behaviors have behavior changed in a long-term way with that, and those behaviors are the behaviors that are observable now, you know. So it's not like, oh, it just kind of resets and you kind of go back to the old ways just without smoking. That's not actually what's happened at all. So I don't know what is to say is in Berlin, because last time I went to Berlin it was really being enforced, but then I heard again that it was a bit of a kind of haphazard thing. So what's the deal right now in Berlin?
Speaker 1:I think it's a bit haphazard. Really. I've been to venues where you can't smoke, you have to go outside, Like the venue about Blank. Last time I went it was no smoking inside, but most places seems to be like, you know, people do smoke and I really love what you're saying there. Actually, I remember like when the smoking ban came in in the UK, I think it was 2007.
Speaker 1:I went to go and see a local band play and poor band, Like everyone was just outside smoking cigarettes. You know, just the whole, including myself, and I think so it. Does you do sort of lose that sense of fluidity, you know, and it becomes, I don't? I wonder if there's something that's connected with that and the fact of like smartphone culture that we've become so we can pick and choose the experiences we want and duck in and duck out. And do you feel like that we do sort of pick and choose our experiences so much, and that goes down from everything from, like, ordering food on delivery whenever we want to, like knowing what time the DJs are playing on a big night. Do you feel like we miss out something in the amount of choice and options that are kind of presented to us now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Just one more thing on smoking. Yeah, I think that cigarette smoking in a venue adds an like a huge amount of atmosphere, and when you go to like a particularly bigger venues now when I go into walking to a renaissance venue or even a theatre they seem unbelievably sterile. I mean that's the word I used before, but I think I think it's the right word to use Like going into the O2 or something like that. It really is like being in a shopping mall, yeah, and that is, I think, something that was mitigated in the old days. To put it, it's like Slightly uncomfortably Like yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like it's having a it's having like a necessary filter over a venue to go OK. Like you know, it's like watching a film that hasn't been kind of colour graded or something.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what it is. Yeah, exactly what it is, and that's I mean it's difficult. Again, like the majority of the audience now don't have that prior reference, so they don't care about that, but for you know, old people, it's unavoidable, like you can't unsee it.
Speaker 2:Anyway, your question about smartphones and kind of on demand culture, I guess, yeah, I mean I think again, it's difficult to be. I mean, yes, it's bad, like unambiguously bad, I think, like I mean there's no getting around that, but I think that equally there's no going back. So I think a more productive way of thinking about it or what more productive way of looking at it would be to how, would be to how, ask how to mitigate that. You know how to improve the experience? And I mean there's a question that's come up indirectly a lot on my show and there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of ideas or good ideas out there how to you know how to appreciably improve things? I don't know. I mean it's like I think it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that it's fundamentally incompatible with club culture as it was previously known anyway. But I think also, I mean, a big development in the last 20 years or so has been just the popularity of big live events, you know like it really like I mean.
Speaker 2:Taylor Swift tour is, you know, the best example of it. Like you know, she's literally a billionaire now off the back of that tour. Like it's like a global phenomenon it really is. Like, I mean, she's being lobbied by national governments to do shows in their country because there's a, there's a tangible economic benefit when she puts on a show in a city. It's crazy, I mean, the difference is made to. You know, it's made real powerful difference to cities in the United States. You know, like it's. It's really incredible and you know that shows as a real appetite for people to go out and experience stuff, right, but they're just experiencing it in a slightly different way than they were previously.
Speaker 2:And I think there's a, there is a danger of kind of, you know, sort of devaluing, I suppose, the current method of enjoying something. Well, I think that's something that every generation seeks to look down on, the previous one, right, I mean, that's just something that happens naturally and you've got to be careful about that, you know. So, if stuff is happening which is seems to be good, which to say that people really like it, which obviously is happening, you know, then should we really be that cynical about it? I don't know. I mean, it's very easy to be cynical about it, absolutely, but I'm, you know, I try to keep my mind open.
Speaker 2:But just in the case of, in the instance of the culture in quotation marks like the club culture, dark rooms, open ended, you know run times, you know not too much interaction going on other than dancing, like, yeah, I did, I struggled to see how this really fits in in a in a significant way and obviously it's going to be there and it's going to, you know, endure to some extent. But I mean, I think there will need to be another turning of the wheel before it, really, before that part of it anyway, the kind of small venue, underground clubs, all that side of the culture really picks up some steam again, because at the moment it's not in a great place. You know, big, big events are doing great, festivals are doing great, but small venues, small clubs, are not at all and I think that's a real shame because, you know, but those venues are really the most important bit, I think.
Speaker 1:I mean that's that's the kind of well, that's the breeding ground of where people will be in. The bigger places will be hearing things in a few years time, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and what I'll say it used to be anyway. I think the breeding ground now actually is is TikTok and Instagram and you know, and the way those then feed into you know stuff like radio and then stuff like boiler room streams and you know it's a. It's a different ecosystem which I think probably produces a slightly different kind of music. It's definitely definitely different style of DJing, different style of kind of artists, image. Just say that image is a lot more important and that's just where we are. You know that's just a technological progression, which is to say not necessarily meaning that in a positive sense, but you know it's a development and you have to accept it, I suppose, and make the best of it as much as you can, I think so Definitely.
Speaker 1:I think it's. I think it's one of the benefits we have of of age, isn't it is, that we have the option of being a grumpy bastard, which we all have in us, but we also have the option of balancing that out with with how we go into the world with it, and that's something that you definitely seem to do is like sort of hit the balance, you know, have the perspective of where you've come from, but the you know being open to the changes, would you say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that, like being new definitely isn't necessarily being better, like that's just, that's just not right at all. Like you know, there always has to be a quality test which has to be met, right. So, just because something is the new thing, the cool thing, you know, like, quite often it's not good, right so. But I mean, and the older you are, the more difficult is to say that Right, because because the reactive, the instinctive reaction of so many older people is just to be dismissive, because it's not what they know, right, I mean, that's, that's, that's completely understandable and is what people, largely speaking, do. So you've got to keep an eye on that. But also, you can't be, you know, you can't let that drive your opinion to such a certain extent that you lose sight of what's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, I think quite a lot of people do do that kind of swing back too hard the other way and just, just, you know, embrace new developments for the sake of them being new, Right so I mean, quite often they're not good, right so. So, yeah, you know, but but yeah, I mean, and I'll see a question, I do, I suppose, try, I basically just try and keep an eye on it.
Speaker 2:You know I try and keep an eye on my prejudices and kind of keep trying to keep an eye on my, yeah, natural, grumpy old man state and gradually encroaching more and more Right, which, again, that happens to everyone, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love what you're saying, though, about the kind of keeping an eye out or like you can't like everything, I mean. Otherwise, it's like a little bit like the kind of middle age dude that buys a leather jacket and suddenly gets like a 19 year old girlfriend, isn't it? It's like just like you know I mean, but then it's like on the opposite end you had someone like John Peel who seemed to navigate that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think John Pills bullshit yeah, I think John Pills, you know bullshit detector and his kind of you know taste was impeccable, you know. So you know he didn't play just any new shit, he would play good new stuff and you know that was. That's a rare skill to be able to maintain that in sort of middle age. Like, not a lot of people have it.
Speaker 2:People get very stuck in their ways, set in their ways, which is, you know, we just understand there's nothing wrong with that per se, this I mean you shouldn't be up on people for that but equally speaking, if you're you're working in in culture, the arts or whatever, then you've really got to make sure that doesn't take over your appreciation of of of art basically, or of any kind of, like you know, creative stuff which is going on at a given moment, like you've got to be able to appraise it Honestly.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that's the most important thing is like being able to appraise something in a way which is true to your experience. You know, drawing on your experience, that's what is the one thing about getting old which is undeniably good is that you know more shit. You know you're bringing more to the table in terms of that stuff, but it's like you've got to let that experience shot. You know you've got to let that come through rather than have it be clouded by your prejudices and bitterness about being older than the people that you're trying to appraise.
Speaker 1:Definitely. Do you have like any practices that help you with this or with with your kind of creative process generally?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think I think having a DJ set that you've got to maintain really helps, generally speaking, I think, like being forced to listen to new music for that reason, if you know, if no other reason, just that like it really is useful for, you know, keeping up on, keep keeping up with what's happening, but also being forced to figure out if you like it or not like really like it, because I mean, if you're a proper DJ, then you won't play anything you don't like, but you've got to again, if you're a proper DJ, you've got to keep playing new stuff, right?
Speaker 2:So you need to find the stuff out there that you're into, and that can be difficult, but it does force you to think in that kind of a way, absolutely, and that's that's. That's a useful kind of mechanism to have to go through on a regular basis. Certainly, I mean, I think maintaining my DJ sets point to being the single most important thing over the years for forcing me to put aside my prejudices, or the natural prejudices which build up over time and just just keep on top of developments and, you know, phrase them in a kind of honest way and the way that was, you know, trying to describe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it's like you know, keeping up with the DJ set, with your DJ set, and how it evolves, is a way of you know. It's almost like a calendar, isn't it? You know it's like like November is what is coming out in November or what you're available to see in November. So you are keeping up with times, in that sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And you know just the necessity to go through your promos, listen to the new releases, you know, and the process of doing that it naturally develops, you know. So, you, you know you become familiar with the new labels which are emerging, the new artists, and, like you, get your new favorites. And, like you know, over the course of a number of years you kind of realize that there's a kind of you know, there's kind of ebbs and plays for everything and people come and go and, like you know, it's never not exciting when you discover someone new who's doing really exciting stuff. I mean that's that's, that's a feeling which doesn't go away. It doesn't, it doesn't get old.
Speaker 2:And the feeling of playing a new record which is really exciting is something which doesn't go away either. You know, just, just you know putting that track on and it's like, wow, okay, this is something new which is doing something different. I mean those moments on, well, certainly the sensation of hearing something absolutely new is very few involved between these days, but it doesn't have to be that at all. It can just be a track which is just exciting. It's an exciting record, you know, really well put together, a real well realized dance track. I mean, those are joyous things, right, you know they really are. So you know, and that's like I said, doesn't get old.
Speaker 1:And I was actually. I sat in a cafe in Neukölln earlier on and I went back and listened to a Mutual Antipathy which I haven't listened to for quite a while, and it's interesting because I think at the time it came out in 2008 and you were living in Berlin at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wouldn't call that a joyous dance record, but no, it's definitely not, but I feel like it's funny because I remember at the time you know there was, it was talked about in the UK press anyway, at least in the context of Dubstep and UK bass, but listening to it in Neukölln it sounded to me more like just something that felt built in atmosphere really, and what was going on with you at the time that made you know you made this kind of such a sort of like heavy but also purely electronic piece of music.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's the right place to listen to it actually. No, I can't Because it's the.
Speaker 2:Well, it was the first thing I did when I moved to Berlin was white those tunes. They were the. It was like the three or four months after I arrived at the end of. I think I arrived in September 2007 and the record was done by the end of January. So I mean, I was living in Friedrichstein at the time, but Friedrichstein was a different place to how it is now and some, you know it was a reflection of the surroundings, I guess, because I mean, you know, berlin's a very what can be a very bleak kind of a place, particularly in the winter, and I that kind of. I mean, that record sounds like it was pretty bleak, isn't it really?
Speaker 1:Maybe I'm just really drawn to bleakness, that I don't notice it, like I was always sort of more radio head than anything else really, so that's always been sort of an attraction to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think it's. I think it's quite, yeah, it's evocative. I mean I haven't I went back and listen to not that long ago. Why should I say no? It was actually we did a 10 year thing, but that was five years ago now. So I was pleasantly surprised when I because I didn't really listen to it at all in that, in that kind of decade after it came- out.
Speaker 2:I remember being quite pleasantly surprised at how good it sounded for a start, because I'm a very you know, I'm a completely self taught engineer and producer and I think I'm quite good at it now, but I was definitely not that good at it, technically speaking anyway, back then. But that's okay, because the beauty of sound engineering is that you can lock your way into stuff and if you're, you know, if you can trust your ears and you're really good, then then you can deliver results without a huge amount of technical knowledge. But I mean just in terms of the vibe of it, the mood of it, I mean it really is, it's gray sounding and it's really it's got that, I guess, a kind of post industrial decay kind of dripping out of it and that's the only way to listen to it again anyway. And that's absolutely what Berlin was like then. I mean it's still like that a bit now, but it was much more like that then. And you know, I think in hindsight I was just making what was what was around me. I mean I'd been to Berlin before, but only a couple of times, just to DJ, you know.
Speaker 2:So I hadn't spent a lot of time in the city, so I had a few mates there before I moved, so I was able to have a bit of, you know, a bit of a social group. So you know, it was just to go out and kind of soak it up a bit and it was very I mean it's very different to London certainly. I mean it was. I mean certainly London in the 2000s it was very different, but it was also very different. So London had been, you know, when I was, when I first started going out, and the, but the I mean the parties were more reminiscent of that than they were of the Paisen in mid 2000s London. But the divide in the city and the kind of general surroundings couldn't have been any different.
Speaker 2:And that's, you know, it's not surprising, because you know, when the wall came down, the place was, you know, leaded to be rebuilt, you know, from the ground up in places. So I know you, obviously, you know that you've written about it, but I mean the album as a whole. I think yeah just reflects that really. But, like I said, not a happy dance, I got it In fact, when I'm I remember one of the best bits of DJ feedback from, you know, promo feedback that I ever got with um, from adrenaline that track, which is obviously a happy dance record, and some someone left scoobers getting laid and if they let it in, uh music.
Speaker 2:I typically think I wasn't getting laid that much Probably accurate, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. The first time I DJ'd in Berlin was in this bar and the owner came up to me looking really concerned and he just said play darker. And I just thought like, oh my God, after 10 years of DJing in London, that was just like nirvana for me to hear it.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, okay, and you bought um.
Speaker 1:So then round about this time, the substance night. You bought this night substance to Bergin and you know what was, what was kind of like the importance for you of you know cause again taking like UK sounds and dubstep and all of these elements into Bergin. What, how did you see that fusing? What was it like? I mean, this was before my jumping on time into Berlin, so I'm kind of just listening to your words, kind of building up a picture of what it was like as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, we didn't. Well, we myself and the guy who I ran a party with is called Paul Fowler, who was my, uh, also my book in Asia, the first book in Asia I ever had One of the kind of people I became good friends with when I moved over from London um, we decided that we wanted to do a night and we're looking for a venue for it. So Bergin was not. You know, the current obviously just seemed like it wasn't in the conversation because no one does nights at Bergin really. So, you know, dubstep nights anyway, and coincidentally, um, yeah, the other pool, actually that that is here's another pool, that's, uh, free pools, that's amazing yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. So he bumped into one of the guys from the back office at Bergin I think it was an water gig in the city and, uh, kind of drunkenly, hitched him a dubstep night at Bergin I mean very drunkenly, just a complete speculative, you know move. And they, they went for it and I, you know I'd been there as a punter a couple of times, I mean not loads, but I'd certainly been there and I'd also been turned away from there as well Because, um, you know, the idea of doing a night there was just, it was a bit it's a bit confusing, to be honest, because we were planning to do stuff which was not like Dubstep had at that point. This is 2000, so the first substance by was July 2008. So the conversations would have been kind of early 2008.
Speaker 2:And Dubstep by that point was pretty popular globally. It had not gone full, kind of skrillex, but like, certainly there was real appetite in Europe. In the UK it was enormous, there was appetite for it in Europe. There was a big night, I remember in Antwerp I believe it was like a fucking huge thousands of people turning up kind of thing, and I think basically the places where Joe and Bace was big in Europe. Dubstep was catching on fast and there was an audience emerging for it pretty fast in the States too. So it was the big.
Speaker 2:It was kind of the coming storm right of electronic music and you know the music had already gone in a direction which I was not at all happy with and that was part of my motivation for music. Maybe it's the first place. I found myself quite disconnected from the London scene musically and what we wanted to do was Dubstep, but not Dubstep. Basically, we wanted to do a big Dubstep night which reflected the side of the music which wasn't being reflected in the big nights, you know, and the big kind of like high profile things. So we wanted to do something big. But like being able to do it at Birkenheim was just a, you know, wow fuck, because I didn't fully appreciate it at the time. But the publicity that comes with that and the attention that comes with Birkenheim it wasn't then what it is now, but it certainly was a. You know, people knew about it absolutely and certainly people in the press knew about it, and for them to get us to do what we did there was incredible for us. But actually I mean, looking back now it was. I think it probably helped them as well in terms of their perception. You know, I think it widened the perception of Birkenheim and it kind of like really kind of established in people's minds that they weren't just this kind of like techno monolith which, should you know, which was the kind of, I guess, image which was being built up around the venue.
Speaker 2:And you know, the first night was, I mean, it was amazing, but it was tough and it was nerve-wracking. And looking back on it now it was, I mean, it was an unforgettable experience for sure, but it was by no means a full conclusion that it was going to be successful. I mean, that's something important to you know, to emphasize Like bass music quote-unquote we should say. Like you know, drum and bass and anything which is not 4-4 had been popular in Berlin, but actually it was a really low ebb, like Watergate did a really long running drum and bass tonight and there was other stuff going on, but it really got crowded out by minimal, I think, in 2006 and 2007. So the kind of environment we were starting out in was really well, it really felt monocultural musically. I'm getting my cat trying to kind of get into the room. I had to lock him out.
Speaker 1:He's going crazy, right right, I'm all fine for a bit of cat on the microphone. It's totally fine.
Speaker 2:I can't let him in. I've always thought about it. Anyway, it really felt monocultural in the city musically, so it was a big risk for them and for us. You know and I'd be lying if I said it was a massive roadblock on the first night. It was busy but it wasn't like a total.
Speaker 2:I mean you don't? Well, we didn't sell tickets. Well, you weren't allowed to sell tickets at Birkenheim, I mean to reserve the right to not let most of the people in. So it was busy, but it wasn't crazy, but it was enough to keep going and, like I think it probably got really good around 2000. So we did five years. The last one was in July 2013. So I think, like end of 2009 to the end of 2011, those years were just amazing for it, Like really, really great. And and you know, those were the peak years for that kind of music as well, Because I mean, eventually, what happened with it is that the music kind of moved on and that's why we stopped doing it in the end, Because I mean, to me it just the mood, that kind of music had stopped being exciting, it had stopped really happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah so we had to, so we had to move on. But that kind of period, so like 2009, 2000, that was kind of three years it was great and it was unlike anything else really before or since, I have to say musically, because it didn't really get replaced by anything. I mean, I know there's the stuff which goes on now, but it's that's very. It's a very different thing, even if the music is essentially kind of a similar thing. Like you know, it was what we were doing. There was a real. It was a kind of unique expression of what was a really exciting cultural movement at the time and it was just a yeah, it was a great thing to do and a great thing to be a part of, and it was. It was awesome, but it was very much of the moment, I think you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's amazing that you captured that at that time. And and do you, I mean like, because there is this kind of eclecticism to to your, if you kind of zoom out at your career but you know I don't like using the word career but you know, for the like a better word career there is this kind of grand eclecticism going on. But when you zoom in, like every project you do, you sort of do treat with a kind of purism to it. And I mean there's, there's, there's always these sort of discussions in DJ discourse and electronic music discourse about like eclecticism and if it's a good thing or not versus purity. And how do you feel about that, do you? You know, because obviously like eclecticism can have a dirty name as well. It can be kind of sort of seen as being this, this jack of all trades kind of thing. You know where, where do you sort of fit on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm generally very suspicious of purism in music. I think it's largely counterproductive. I think it's largely the expression of people's post-mindedness actually, usually, and also also kind of virtue signaling as well, I think, particularly in kind of dance music genres actually, I mean music genres generally speaking. I mean, you get these kind of self-styled gatekeepers of what is and isn't acceptable in any given genre and it's totally ridiculous and completely, I mean.
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean usually, like I said, perpetrated by people who really should know better but are kind of expressing their own, probably their own insecurities, actually, in trying to control other people. But I mean, having said that, I do think that culture should be respected.
Speaker 2:And when culture emerges, you've got to understand it, you've got to incumbent upon you, if you're going to participate, to really understand what's going on in it and then you know you can make your own decisions about what you want to engage with and what you don't want to engage with.
Speaker 2:And that in itself causes problems for people, you know, because people like to well, dance fans especially and let's just say music fans, and I think it's true across the board. Music fans like to engage with people who they consider to be authentic, in massive quotation marks. And if you're chopping and changing, then it's very easy for people to get the idea or get the wrong impression or just maybe it's the right impression actually that you're not taking things as seriously as they want you to take them. So I totally understand that and actually you know I'm guilty of it too, certainly as a music fan. You know I like my bands to be, you know I like them to stay in one lane, but that is the way and I know from being on the other side of the fence that's extremely frustrating as an artist.
Speaker 1:And you know.
Speaker 2:I've confounded people over the years by not doing my different you know kinds of music under different names and you know starting different projects for different kinds of music and in hindsight maybe that would have been a better idea. But equally, I mean that was completely intentional because I saw myself as being I'm generally speaking seeing myself as being doing. I see myself as doing basically the same thing, but just with a slightly different angle, you know, and if that's expressed in a different musical genre and sometimes it's a musical genre which is so close to the other genre which they're angry about is, you know, it's almost meaningless. So certainly to the uninitiated person it would be, you know, almost indistinguishable.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I find that kind of thing frustrating and I would consider creating different projects and creating different identities to fit that stuff. I would consider that to be inauthentic to be honest. So I kind of like yeah, take it the other way. So I don't know. I mean, I yeah.
Speaker 2:I think there is. There is room for taking things really seriously culturally and and and, and you know, being aware of, you know, the mind you shy, you know, and being aware of how seriously people take things, and that's absolutely legitimate, totally. But then you know, I don't think you can, you know, allow yourself to be dictated to by those people and by those kind of norms too closely, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with you, I think. I mean, I feel like you know it is art and I do understand, like why you have chefs that feel like the only way you can make a lasagna is to use these certain ingredients and and if you start changing it it's not lasagna anymore. You know that's fine, but but you know, I feel like you know it's an artist's part of an artist's journey to kind of fuck things up in their own way as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, the best one I ever heard was someone saying I can't remember who it was, I think I can, but I won't mention that Someone saying if you've got a kick or a clap, sorry, if you've got a snare or a clap on the two and the four of a tune, then it can't be techno, which is absolutely fucking ludicrous. Yeah, but I but in some respects I absolutely completely respect that. I completely I got, yeah, okay, if that's how we're going on, and yeah, that's cool. You know, and you know, if thrash metal has to be 180 BPM or whatever that's, or drum bass has to be, you know, 170 or 135, whatever it is, you know, I actually I like that stuff. I mean, of course it's constricting if you take it too seriously, but I love the fact that those things exist. You know, I love that people take it that seriously. I think it's awesome and, yeah, absolutely. In the case of the example of food, I fucking yeah, those Italians who literally, I mean literally go fucking crazy if you put cream in a carbonara which, by the way, I completely agree with like you should not put cream in a carbonara, but the Italians that literally, like, want to take up arms against people. I fucking love that they're so invested in that shit. You know, this is, this is great to me, it's absolutely great and that's. But that is culture. People being invested in stuff is culture, you know. And you can tell the strength of something by the fact that people get so angry, you know, so outraged, which is it's fine, it's fine, you can't. You know.
Speaker 2:I think I mean there are examples of musicians who use those parameters as something really creative. We'll use them, use those parameters in a really creative way. You know, I think there are people who make techno or make drum and bass or whatever, who just do that, and they it's like those, you know, it's like Japanese sushi chefs or you know the Japanese in just about any discipline, to be honest, who just spend decades of their life refining something and refining something and refining something. And I think there are producers like that, and particularly the genre like techno, I think, really lends itself to that kind of thing, and also drum and bass, and that's great, that's completely legitimate as a way of working as a musician.
Speaker 2:You know, I've got no problem with that at all, but it's not for everyone, you know, and I guess if I've got a problem with any of it. It's when people start prescribing the work of other people who aren't like that. You know, that's the only problem I have with the whole thing really, but as a general thing that happens. You know, beers, milliton, as you want, about the musical parameters which make up a musical genre, that's totally fine.
Speaker 1:Totally. I think it's a. We need the whole ecosystem, don't we? We need the whole people from all different perspectives coming at it, and then out of that you get people that protect the traditions, like that lasagna, that carbonara, so you know, because it has cultural worth and it has history. But then you also have the people that innovate and fuck up with it, because that's where the future is as well, and somehow we just have to fit in, take what we want out of it.
Speaker 2:I guess yeah, I mean, I think that's where gatekeeping can be good and can be necessary and can really add a lot, you know, to the whole thing, because I mean, obviously gatekeepers have got a bit of a bad rep these days but I think they, you know, build a really important function in the development of anything, but I think, particularly in culture and the arts, you know, I think in the way that you describe and the kind of the preservation of stuff, but also in, you know. To go back to what we were saying about, you know, quality being, yeah, newness is not an indicator of quality, like, I mean, there's got to be someone who's got to be someone of authority who's able to say that, right, like, there's nothing bad about that. Obviously it can go too far and it can go too far, but I really think that having some sort of respected authority in any kind of thing it can't be, you know, all powerful but something, some kind of yardstick which people can look to, I think is really really useful, really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And finally, how do you look back on your creative life? What would you go back and tell, like you know, 15-year-old you?
Speaker 2:Stay off.
Speaker 1:Twitter.
Speaker 2:Probably talk less generally Talk less. I think maybe it's a bit different now, maybe the expectation is slightly different now, but I think that the more mystery you can retain about yourself, generally speaking, the better, and nothing removes mystery like voicing an opinion. So I think that's still true. Actually, I think the more, and I think there's a couple of different advantages to it. So that's what I've just said about you know, just having a kind of air of unpredictability and a narrow mystery around yourself can be really evocative for people. But also it enables people to map themselves onto you and that's a really cynical way of looking at it and a
Speaker 2:kind of marketing kind of a sense, but I think it's really valuable, you know, I think it really enables people to engage with your whatever kind of creative stuff you're making, whether it's music or art or film or whatever. If they don't know your political stance or political opinion or whatever it is, they can approach it in a way which is much more neutral, I think, and they can map on whatever they want to map on to it. You know, and I think that's if I was going to, you know, if I had a choice, like I would rather be in that position than a kind of overtly political position in terms of, like you know, I knew about me, I thought you were bad about me putting it, but you know what I mean. Now, there are obviously examples of people who are overtly political and nakedly political, and that's part of the message, absolutely. And you know there's, you know, bands that I love, like someone, like I don't know who's a good example, just to pluck a really obvious one Rage Against the Machine. Like everyone knew where they stood right.
Speaker 2:And it's in the lyrics, but it's not just in the lyrics, it's like everything about the band.
Speaker 1:It's the whole makeup of the band, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and like you know who's the director, I'm thinking of Ken Loach Ken.
Speaker 1:Loach, yeah, yeah, ken Loach Fagazi, that's another one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know those people who what they make is deeply connected to their publicly stated personal beliefs. So it can absolutely work. But I think, but if I was going to have the choice, if I was going to tell myself what to do, I would say just keep it private, keep everything private, and then people can, you know, bring to it whatever they want to bring to it. Yeah, and I think that would be, that would be my preference now. So, but generally speaking, that would be, and that would be my advice to anyone starting any kind of creative or artistic or whatever kind of career Just say as little as possible, yeah.
Speaker 2:He says at the end of an hour long podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know it's always a bit of this and that isn't it, though, but yeah, no, totally get you on that. That's brilliant, paul. Thank you so much for giving me your time today. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me on, man.
Speaker 1:Right. So that was me, paul Hanford, talking with Scuba, aka Paul Rose, for Lost In Sound podcast, and we had that conversation right at the beginning of November 2023. Scuba's digital underground mixtape is out 10th of November. Well worth worth a listen, not a diving podcast. His podcast is out weekly Again. Subscribe to it, check it out, subscribe to wherever you get your podcast. It's really really, really well worth a listen. I really enjoyed being a guest on his show the other month and I really enjoyed having the chairs reversed and him coming on my show. I really enjoyed that chat. Thank you so much, paul.
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Speaker 1:Really hope you enjoyed that chat. I hope you're taking really good care of yourself. I hope you're having a really lovely day and I'll chat to you soon, thank you, thank you.