As the winter chill sets in, imagine cozying up with a warm cup of tea and the wall of noise psych-pop of Cults, the band that first took over the web with "Go Outside." In this episode, Brian Oblivion and Madeleine Follin join Paul to share their journey from a viral sensation to seasoned artists. We meander through their contrasting COVID experiences, with Brian finding solace in the snow-capped quiet of upstate New York while Maddie paints a vivid picture from the bustling downstate. Their anecdotes of musical resurgence on TikTok will remind you why "Always Forever" and "Gilded Lily" have found a new lease on life among listeners.
Have you ever wondered about the creative alchemy that fuels a band's sound? Brian and Maddie pull back the curtain on their songwriting and recording process, with a candid look at their winter studio sessions and the tightrope walk of their unique partnership. They offer a glimpse into their musical origins, from Maddie's punk band beginnings to Brian's unconventional path, all leading up to a serendipitous convergence that neither of them saw coming. Their reflections on navigating the music industry's ebbs and flows are as enlightening as they are inspiring.
To round off our chat, we explore the delicate interplay of hope and pragmatism that drives a musician's career. Brian and Maddie share insights into the validation they've felt from new platforms and the importance of staying humble and adaptable, echoing advice from family that has kept them grounded.
Presented and produced by Paul Hanford
Paul Hanford on Instagram
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
As the winter chill sets in, imagine cozying up with a warm cup of tea and the wall of noise psych-pop of Cults, the band that first took over the web with "Go Outside." In this episode, Brian Oblivion and Madeleine Follin join Paul to share their journey from a viral sensation to seasoned artists. We meander through their contrasting COVID experiences, with Brian finding solace in the snow-capped quiet of upstate New York while Maddie paints a vivid picture from the bustling downstate. Their anecdotes of musical resurgence on TikTok will remind you why "Always Forever" and "Gilded Lily" have found a new lease on life among listeners.
Have you ever wondered about the creative alchemy that fuels a band's sound? Brian and Maddie pull back the curtain on their songwriting and recording process, with a candid look at their winter studio sessions and the tightrope walk of their unique partnership. They offer a glimpse into their musical origins, from Maddie's punk band beginnings to Brian's unconventional path, all leading up to a serendipitous convergence that neither of them saw coming. Their reflections on navigating the music industry's ebbs and flows are as enlightening as they are inspiring.
To round off our chat, we explore the delicate interplay of hope and pragmatism that drives a musician's career. Brian and Maddie share insights into the validation they've felt from new platforms and the importance of staying humble and adaptable, echoing advice from family that has kept them grounded.
Presented and produced by Paul Hanford
Paul Hanford on Instagram
Lost and Sound is proudly sponsored by Audio-Technica
Paul’s debut book, Coming To Berlin: Global Journeys Into An Electronic Music And Club Culture Capital is out now on Velocity Press. Click here to find out more.
Lost and Sound title music by Thomas Giddins
Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica. Audio Technica are a global but still family run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones, that make studio quality yet affordable products, because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. So, wherever you are in the world, head on over to AudioTechnicacom to check out all of their range of stuff. Hello and welcome to the very first Lost and Sound of the year. I'm Paul Hamford, I'm your host, I'm an author, broadcast lecturer, based in Berlin, where I'm speaking to you now from on a very cold and very slippery on the ground day. It is very, very cold today, and this is the show where, each episode, I have conversations with the musical innovators, the outsiders, the mavericks, the artists that do their own unique thing, and we talk about music, creativity, life, the things that inspire us to make, the things that we make. Previous guests have included Peaches, suzanne Chiani, jim O'Rourke, jilly Gonzalez, cosy, fanny Tutti, jean-michel Jarre, mickey Blanco and Thurston Moore, and today on the show, we head on over to Upstate and Downtown New York at the same time to have a conversation with cults. My book Coming to Berlin is available in all good bookshops or via the publisher, velocity Press's website, and so, yes, here we are.
Speaker 1:So for the first podcast of the year, I spoke with Brian Oblivion and Madeleine Fulin, who formed the band Cults sometime around 2010 in New York. Their tune Go Outside went viral and caught on almost literally overnight. They talk about how literally, almost literally overnight this was and it happened before they'd really had a chance to form as a unit, as a band, and they go on also in the interview to describe this process of sort of feeling things were happening, perhaps before they were ready, but they got through that. They wrote this wave and have since made four albums, with a fifth album on its way at some point this year and their sound, which kind of blends Psyche Rock with 60s girl group influences, with some Phil Specterish elements, and has this kind of combination of like being really anthemic at the same time very, very, very singular, singular kind of in the way, but say like StereoLab or Spiritualized. Have that essence. That is just them. I think cults also have that too. They've also been the recipients of a very unusual kind of post it happening buzz in a way. Firstly in 2013, when J Cole sampled them for his tune she Knows, which was a massive smash hit, and more recently, the TikTok generation picked up on a couple of their tunes that went that kind of developed a second life through the platform Always, forever and Gilded Lily.
Speaker 1:Again, we talk about this in the podcast about like how sometimes it takes some time for particular pieces of art, pieces of music whatever you want to call it to find their place and the kind of validification that this can kind of bring with that. I really enjoyed chatting with them. This is a really warm and cozy kind of chat and this is what happened when I met Maddie and Brian from Cultz. We're all here Great. Thanks so much for speaking with me today. How is it going? How's your year? How's it started for you this year?
Speaker 2:Well, Brian got COVID.
Speaker 3:Instantly yeah.
Speaker 2:Instantly, and I was with him a few days ago and I have a tickle in my throat now, so it's starting to go?
Speaker 1:No, no, it's starting off, really nicely.
Speaker 2:I guess it's good to get it out of the way.
Speaker 1:I guess. So I have this thing where every time I get a cold and it turns out to not be COVID, I'm a bit annoyed, because then I think, oh no, I've got a cold, and then maybe I have to have COVID again. So it's good if you've got it to get it, isn't it? Yeah, I mean. But Brian, how has it been for you? Is it been a bad one, or have you kind of sailed through?
Speaker 3:No, really mellow. I've been up here. We had our first snowfall in like two years, so I'm like upstate New York, hanging just like in my little cocoon, sleeping next to a wood fire, feeling good.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Okay, that's a nice picture of a nice COVID. I have to say I'm sick.
Speaker 3:I'm just kind of like cozying up, giving myself no responsibilities. It's been nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're in upstate and Maddie where about to you?
Speaker 2:I'm downstate, so just in the city.
Speaker 1:Really Okay. So I've heard bits that you have both traditionally used winter quite a lot for recording and I don't know if that's true or not. You know always information. You never know if it for magazines, if it's accurate or not, but is that a true thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I feel like definitely our record that we just finished. We spent all of last winter working on, and, yeah, pretty much always, we're always working in the winter, but also, weirdly, we're always touring in the winter also.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the joke with you know, most of our records have come out like late fall, so they're like getting finished in the winter. And the joke with our band is that the record will be finished in February, but we don't say which February. It's usually like a year after we think that it's going to be done.
Speaker 1:I mean, I find that with any kind of deadline that I impose on myself was imposed that it's always a little bit of time after, isn't it? But you need that deadline anyway to kind of even allow for that time after to happen. But how has it been?
Speaker 2:going, don't do anything for us.
Speaker 1:Really Okay, but I mean, you've been going long enough to now to do you accept that as part of the thing.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't know. I guess I'm on both sides, because I really, if I say February, I'm like I want it to be done by February. I'm usually the one setting the deadline, but also Brian's kind of will. He'll calm me down and if we're getting close to February he's like it doesn't matter, Like we can take all the time in the world on this. There's no, you impose that deadline yourself.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's a great source of frustration and intrigue why it takes us the amount of time it does to make records. But I mean, we're not the worst, we're not the best, but it's like it just, after all, you're right after all this time it just is what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you say you're not the worst, but it's like you definitely like. It's not like you're kind of Kevin Shields doing one album no that's amazing to me.
Speaker 3:I would love to be a fly on the wall of the world of people who take 10 years to make records. I'm like what does it mean?
Speaker 1:And I guess like, do you feel like as well that's one of the things about working in a partnership, as with two of you that these two elements kind of bounce off each other and you find like a sweet spot in the middle?
Speaker 3:That's definitely true and honestly, like you know, maddie writes a lot of music on her own. I almost never do anything on my own. I like have to have an audience to like perform. Like I could never make music by myself, Like if, if, if I'm ever even like doing like a guitar part, like Maddie's in the room, like you know, get being constructive and psyched.
Speaker 2:And I would not have it any other way because if something happens while I'm not in the room, I'm like what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I guess I do get the 10 year thing, because if I didn't have like a partner like that, I wouldn't, it would just never happen.
Speaker 1:So maybe it's just that Kevin Shields doesn't have a Maddie.
Speaker 3:Maybe he needs a Maddie yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, and so like I wanted to kind of go back right to the start, then, how did for both of you, how did music kind of first come into your lives? Did you have like a moment where you know, you have this realization that music meant maybe something more than just you know, something casual for you both?
Speaker 2:Well, I started making music when I or singing on records when I was like maybe eight. My stepdad had a punk band and he would have me come in. I think he probably thought it was funny and I would sing on his songs. So I kind of grew up in a studio setting, always having that be like a normal thing. But I never thought that I would become a musician. Weirdly, because my brother was in music, I was just like, oh, I'm going to be like, it's not gonna work out for me.
Speaker 1:Is that because you feel like that space had already been taken? Then because of your brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, he was just like so cool. There was just no, I just didn't even think of, I didn't even cross my mind, I guess. But Brian, you had bands in high school, not really.
Speaker 3:I was over the moon in love with music and I even worked a job and bought a drum set and set up my garage and there were bands in my high school who would come to my house to practice but they would never ask me to jam with them. I was the weird accessory member of my musical community Growing up and I was just a super fan. I would actually met Maddie because I was on tour with her brother just being a roadie. I was very. I don't know why that happened, but I played in one band. We moved for a little bit and it didn't work out. But when we were in college Maddie started making music with a friend of mine, I think, who saw her potential before I did.
Speaker 2:I was like hey, let's make music.
Speaker 3:I don't know and yeah, and I was like damn what's going on over there, and so, yeah, we just started. I think that was the first songs that we both had ever written, I think even after we made those songs we were like nobody's ever gonna hear these.
Speaker 2:We didn't ever think we were gonna be musicians until we pretty much met George, our mutual friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3:Our major dream was to play the local bar in the East Village that our friend's college would play their punk shows at. We're like, oh, maybe we can make some songs and we could do an opening gig on a Wednesday night for these people. That was it. So it was never a grand plan, but we were both really into film stuff, which we thought was a compromise of being able to be in art and around music and stuff without While being still kind of square or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's being kind of square a bit important as well. Do you think that's a good question, because we're talking about? We're talking about this is like New York in the late noughties, isn't it? So that's sort of already become kind of mythologized as such a kind of cool time. When you look at textbook definitions of cool, they would kind of put New York in the late noughties or all throughout the noughties as being part of that. So did you sort of feel like this kind of being on the outside of that a little bit?
Speaker 3:Definitely. I mean, it's interesting actually looking back on it now because it really was like Now it's been enough time that there's the mythology of that time is kind of building and it was such an amazing time to be a young musician, I think, especially compared to now, because there was that feeling of scenes Like people were illegally smoking cigarettes and bars and getting into places underage things that don't happen in New York anymore. It was pretty wild and there was this kind of appetite for music that I don't see so much anymore. Like people were like hey, I would have this interaction of like well, if you heard this new band, like I haven't heard anybody say that to me in a long time.
Speaker 1:No, that's a good point yeah.
Speaker 3:They're like. People were like it was like a social currency to know about new things, whereas now I feel like the window has shifted much more to like people love, like pop you know what I mean and it's like the things that people and I don't know. So it was really. We're just really lucky to have come up in that time, but I think it was maybe just a little bit contagious, like because it was so exciting and it did seem kind of possible, like even though we weren't thinking about it that way. It was like oh, it's happening. Like people, like bands are like it was right on the heels of the idea of like a Brooklyn band, that you can move to the city and start whacking on a floor, tom, and then go on tour and play in Portugal. It's a very cool thing. That feels really far away. I think now for a lot of people who are just starting out, the path is very different.
Speaker 1:And I guess this was just kind of prior, the real. I mean, I guess Spotify was around them, but it was really prior, it wasn't it?
Speaker 3:wasn't right.
Speaker 1:Okay. So there was no sort of Like people were kind of still sourcing music rather than kind of having music sort of pushed up them. That's a good point.
Speaker 3:That's probably the biggest difference is the algorithm. It's that like your algorithm was like your friends and music websites and people were like people who were cultural taste makers instead of like. I love my algorithm, but that's it supplies all my.
Speaker 2:You can put my algorithm for the world. They work.
Speaker 1:They do work, don't they?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they all take credit. I'm like excited to drive down back down to the city and listen to my Monday Discover weekly. I always find so much cool music but it all reinforces what I already like, which is a little disappointing, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think the algorithm I mean my algorithm works fantastically. It sounds like I'm just talking to a doctor, doesn't it? My algorithm?
Speaker 3:is working fantastically, but it will never be.
Speaker 1:I mean and I don't want to sound like an old fart either, but it's sort of like there was always something about that cool kid who is a little bit older that you'd see at college or school or at the bar, who they would always kind of have some band that they would tell you about on Monday or Tuesday or something like that. You just sort of saw the way they moved or acted, all the stuff that they played. You'd be like, oh really, that really appeals to me, because just that one person is talking about it.
Speaker 2:My algorithm needs a tune-up. I'm just going to keep getting the same things. I have hit a dead end in my yeah, I'm just going to keep getting the same things. I have hit a dead end in my. Yeah, I'm just going to keep getting the same things. Yeah, I'm going to work on that today.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I wonder, if you just throw some random stuff in there, it changes. I don't know, I'm not sure how many. Because something you said just now as well, which I think is really interesting but I've known about you before as well is that you were saying that you started writing music together with like furry little aspirations that it was going to go further than what it did, and then suddenly it really really very quickly did as well and go outside became like this kind of sort of an anthem at the time, and it still is, and was there something about? You said also as well, but there was this little period of feeling that you were faking it till you make it as well. What did that feel like at the time when go outside did take off and you were still kind of it maybe took off more than you had as a working unit.
Speaker 1:Yeah it was crazy.
Speaker 2:So we made this song on the weekend, like a Saturday night or something, and I think, like very early the next week I was at my internship and I was like, hey, like I was, I was very I had just moved from San Francisco, I and I was like only listening to like old music. I didn't listen to anything new, I wasn't in tune with anything that was going on. So I was like, hey, this website called girl versus bear, they just wrote about this, the song. Previously that weekend we had sent it to a bunch of our friends and they were like, yeah, like they, they didn't like it, or they said they didn't like it. So we were kind of like, oh, okay, but yeah, we just on. Like that Monday or Tuesday it went up on girl versus bear and then two hours later, later it was on pitchfork and I was like I don't even know if there was. We were, we were texting baby, what was it called? On blackberry messenger.
Speaker 3:BBM.
Speaker 2:BBM. I was like it's on pitchfork, like what does this mean? And it was really. It was so exciting. I think we both like ran out of our jobs and met up and started a Twitter, I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like it was still like a little bit traumatized from like the the having to like learn how to be a band in the public eye. You know like we had never performed Like, so we had to like learn how to play. Like the first aeration of the band had like eight people in it. Like we had like no idea what we were doing and we, like you know, before we knew it we were like playing festivals and like getting show reviews and like doing it.
Speaker 2:I think, like our third show was second or third show was at Hammerstein ballroom, which is like yeah, opening for Goldfrapp in front of like it was so.
Speaker 1:We bombed.
Speaker 2:It was horrible but we just wanted to take every opportunity. But it was funny because everybody started talking online and they were like what is? Who are they? They're so mysterious, thinking that we had manufactured this, these personas. But we just didn't have anything online because we really didn't think anybody was ever going to hear it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, by the time that the music came out, we were like, holy shit, we need to take me to get photos of ourselves. And we like had like my roommate take some pictures. Like it was like all backwards. You know what I?
Speaker 1:mean and that? Because I mean I had a very similar experience like in the late 90s, like I was in a band and we just got together over a weekend and made some music. Then a couple of months later we, you know, we signed with VMI and we didn't you know the band didn't take off to cults level. But but that whole thing of like not being prepared for it and like we'd not toured and we'd not like written any other songs, and having to kind of form it like at the same time as everyone else had an idea of who we were, did it? Did that take a little while for you to kind of get used to and to sort of feel that you were actually like an entity with its own thing?
Speaker 3:I mean, yeah, but really, when I think about it, it's really just like our you know, the secret to the band is like our relationship, like we've like had so much faith in each other.
Speaker 3:When I think about that time, I can't help but think about like four other times in the future where things were like more treacherous and that, like we've like been through these ups and downs and, like you know, we've just always had a lot of faith in each other, unfounded, kind of. You know, like at the time we were just like there was no reason that we would like should have this much confidence that we could pull it off and that what we were doing was, like you know, worth it and right. But like I think, just having had some success with the first thing that we tried, we were like, okay, there's something here and people are going to try to get in the middle of it, but like we have the thing, you know, and we've always like stayed really focused on that and yeah, it's kind of like carried us through that moment and many other moments in the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, was there, was there a point where you felt that, yeah, this is, this is what we do. You know, this is this, this is you know. Let you talk about all the different points of it, it's sort of carried through, but was there like a point you can both think of, where you thought this is it, this is what we do.
Speaker 3:Just this last record, really really yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, I still feel like, I think this record for me is finally like was five years ago.
Speaker 3:It was finally the kind of like, you know, just having persevered for the time that we have and having had like what's kind of like now, like a second life for like of the band. It's like, oh, like, you know, having had these songs brought back in this really big way through, like you know, tiktok or whatever, and new, new media, it's like going through that whole thing that we're talking about again, so it kind of like drove it home. You know, like, oh, like, like I don't know. I felt for the first time like, like, if we think it's cool and worth it, it's probably us. You know what I mean. Like for us, like we don't need to like, like I don't know, the idea that, like you can have a song that could get really popular eight years after it comes out just kind of like drives home the feeling that, like you're doing it for you, you know, or that, like you know, your instincts should be trusted because, like, the current moment isn't what dictates, you know, success, especially now, which is like exciting you know.
Speaker 1:So that kind of feels like it gives you like a sort of it's like a kind of sense of validation, perhaps.
Speaker 3:For sure. And also, like you know, it's just, I think we're, like I always like kind of hoped. You know, the bands that I admire the most, like I don't know StereoLab, broadcast, spiritualize, Dear Hunter, it's like their bands where it's about the totality, you know what I mean Like usually they have like one or two records each that are like a little bit higher than the rest of it, but it's like, if you're like it's about the whole thing, you know, and I think that picture is like becoming clearer for us. It's not clear yet, but it's like, oh, this is our thing and we're kind of being able to like add to it instead of, like previously, kind of grabbing, like oh, what have we tried that? What did we do this?
Speaker 2:You know like we got to mix it up. What have we done?
Speaker 3:You know, and now it's like, oh, it's kind of coming into focus and I feel like, you know, our new record is actually like more like the first one than anything that we've done so far. You think so many. Maybe I'm crazy, maybe it's just the spirit.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I feel like. I felt like that was the last one. I don't know, it's something. Yeah, I think it's something.
Speaker 1:Kind of like sort of being its own thing, isn't that? That's sort of to me that feels like sort of that you are doing something that just feels both part of you, you know, as opposed to trying to fit into any kind of continuum as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I've been having some like existential kind of thoughts about how, like, when, in negative slash record of what like the kind of, you know, mission statement or like purpose of the whole thing is, and for me it's really just like a it's like a hate to say, use the millennial word, but it's like a five, like a, like a kind of like it's, you know, like like those bands that I'm talking about, like stereo lab or broadcast, it's like their whole career is like almost putting you in a mood or like kind of showing you like a lick, how something pop can meet something transgressive and maybe open up like a little different side of yourself.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. And like, oh, like, maybe I could like a little bit weirder and that's you know, for us, with like the kind of mix of like horror movie, filmic stuff with like retro pop, it's like it's just something that when it, when it clicks, it just like lights my brain up, you know, and just like trying to share that with other people and push the envelope like a little bit further every time. It's just like it's good of a use of my time as I can think of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel like those bands you sort of mentioned like stereo lab as well as, like I describe them as, having a flavor. You know that there's a sort of stereo lab flavor. There's a and that, like you say again, maybe like Emperor tomato ketchup is like the, you know, the deluxe edition of that flavor or something. I don't know, but you know they feel like they're channeling into something flavor.
Speaker 3:And actually I don't think we have an Emperor tomato ketchup yet, which is a good thing, because it means that we get to keep striving for it, you know.
Speaker 1:What with the kind of bands that you kind of aside from that? What with the kind of bands that you both kind of bonded on, or artists that you both both bonded on? Or it doesn't even have to be like music, you know, because you talk about a lot about film as well Like what were your kind of like big artistic connecting points, do you think?
Speaker 2:I think the main artist that kind of started the band was probably Leslie Gore. We did a road trip from LA to San Francisco and listen to that kind of the entire way up.
Speaker 3:This is the first time I'd ever heard it. I'm going to confess.
Speaker 1:I've not heard of Leslie Gore. Please educate me.
Speaker 2:I mean, her big song is it's my Party.
Speaker 1:Oh right, yeah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:And that you Don't Own Me. So just and also just after that we kind of took a deep dive into Phil Spector 60s girl group music.
Speaker 3:She had a CD changer in her car and one of the other CDs was like a John Waters compilation of like it was like a Valentine's Day compilation, but it was all these like kind of like fucked up, like retro, like you know, cry baby, I love, like love songs and the whole drive just blew my mind and I think that's kind of the mix is. I was I was listening to like SquarePusher and like weird like electronic music, so I think the mix of that is kind of like where it started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And how do you feel that your working method has changed over the? Do you do you have like a sort of set way of working on something, or does it change each time you do an album?
Speaker 2:I think we're pretty.
Speaker 3:Well, we don't work until like we don't work like vampire hours anymore, right.
Speaker 1:Where you breathe, vampires.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember the second record was like well, actually the second and the third, we both had like we had like air beds in the studio and we were just, like you know, subterranean for many, many months and like no windows, like a lot of like you know, fun yeah, maybe too much fun A lot of time wasted, a lot of money wasted. Now we kind of like meet up like almost like bankers and the, you know, especially for this record, it's like we had kind of a routine of just meeting up Monday through Friday and working, you know, like a normal amount of time and and really kind of taking the pressure off as far as like we're going to create something every day and and probably 75% of the time is going to suck, you know. And like I just looked and we made 100 songs for this last record and it's like I think a lot of them are good but they just didn't have the thing you know, and I really like that, that method of working, because it it's like it's very like realistic, you know.
Speaker 1:And it kind of gives it, lets you kind of just create, I guess, without having the pressure to sort of like, okay, we're going to just write 10 songs and they've all got to be on the album.
Speaker 2:That's stressing me out.
Speaker 3:Right. Sometimes we just be like oh, I'm making like a, like a hip hop beat, just humor me, you know, like I just need to do this. It's like in my head or like I don't know. I think every time you make something you learn something. So it's like it's it you grow a lot more when you do, when you give yourself the opportunity, like before we. Sometimes we would be like, oh God, if I'm inspired, then this is going to happen and it has to happen in a way that's productive. Otherwise, like you know, I'm wasting this inspiration and but I don't really believe in that anymore. I just like think that you kind of open up the floodgates and just like kind of do it, you know, but yeah, so it's more normal. But I think actually that leads to like weirder places.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. It is interesting that you know sort of opening up the floodgates, just letting stuff just come out. But like if you've written 100 songs, does that kind of worry you that one day someone will do like a deluxe box set, first Put them all out.
Speaker 2:You know, usually do that.
Speaker 3:We started actually doing, like you know, deluxe B side collections to the records and it's great actually, like because we've always had such a never done any EP and we it feels I mean it feels actually like EP's are more relevant now because of streaming and stuff. But we're always like why put out like five songs when you could put out eight and make it like an album, you know? But like it's cool to put out like three or four songs afterwards that show like maybe a little if it went a different way, you know, and it gives us a chance to do like a song, the songs that are like weird passion projects for us.
Speaker 2:Anything that finds post-mortem. They're going to have a lot of cleaning to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're going to have a lot of cleaning. Well, I just saw Mac DeMarco I've. I haven't listened to it yet. It's like four hours long or something. Right, he just did that and he put out like everything.
Speaker 1:Right, I haven't seen that yet. Is it like an anthology or no?
Speaker 3:he just like he basically just put out like everything that he had made for his new record, like same thing he put out like I don't know how many it was, man, you do see, it's like a hundred tracks or something, but they're just labeled like track one, track two, track four, and some of them are like 30 seconds and some of them are like 10 minutes, and it's just like he just like threw it out there and I'm damn respect.
Speaker 1:I feel like he's definitely like an artist that just sort of seems like I don't know too much about his methods or really anything about his methods, but I kind of get the impression he's someone that just feels very compulsively that he has to kind of create or just put stuff out without that kind of gloss endpoint to it, that's the impression I get too.
Speaker 3:I think he's a. I think he's a hard worker, yeah.
Speaker 1:Did you have any kind of like routines, that sort of help you get in the zone when you go into the studio or even before you go on stage, like are they like set rituals or things that help help it?
Speaker 3:come out. I'm thinking of Maddie's ritual for years of.
Speaker 2:Throwing up, throwing up.
Speaker 3:Oh, no Taking a shot of Jamison and throwing up.
Speaker 2:Not being drunk. I wasn't. I've never been drunk.
Speaker 1:No, not drunk, but I guess the throwing up helps to not get drunk on it Nerves, nerves ritual.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I said, the only ritual is really that we have worked on this with the same producer for all of our records, and he was. When we get to the point where we start working with him, things start taking shape really fast. So we like kind of have to like. It's like a kind of a game of like when are we going to pull that trigger?
Speaker 3:You know what I mean Like we're like are we ready, are we going to do it? Is this the moment? And then, when we do everything, he's like our you know, fifth beatle or whatever you know like that, when that happens.
Speaker 2:We fight.
Speaker 3:We fight, yeah, but we start fighting, but but he is good at managing that fight, you know, and it's like, yeah, that's when, like, things start getting cut and that's our only ritual battle to the death for this.
Speaker 1:Battle to the death. Excellent, and is that quite a healthy thing, do you think having a Right?
Speaker 3:No, Well, especially since, like you know, the first two records we Wrote them all together and then, starting with the third one, we started writing some songs like kind of more individually. So then it becomes like a real battle.
Speaker 2:And that's where Shane really.
Speaker 3:Well, he's just got this amazing like ability. You know he's he's a producer. He's like in the kind of old school sense, like I feel like the the trend today is that producers are like songwriters or musicians, but he's not like he can play a little bit, but he's he's like an interpreter, you know like. He has like the ability to see what we're going for and to help us get there.
Speaker 3:So sometimes Maddie has a song and and I have been, you know, helping with it for a while and I get stuck and I'm like I don't know where you want to go and I'm like tired of banging my head against the wall. And when he comes in he's like, oh, she wants to go here and she's like thank you, or the opposite, you know, sometimes with me and I'm like, oh no, this is the one and I can convince her and like, and you know he is like able to kind of speak the language in between us and, yes, it's so he's also like our best friend. So he actually works now in like movies and but has dedicated that he will help us make our records for the rest of his life. So I'm really happy about that.
Speaker 1:That's good, that's good, that's that. Sounds like a nice kind of arrangement to have for him.
Speaker 3:I mean, he's in the studio.
Speaker 1:And yeah, like kind of mentioned a little bit earlier on about like how always, forever it's kind of getting got this second life through TikTok and like eight years later, does it sort of and also you know, and kind of connecting this in with the J Cole tune that that's sampled as well? I mean, was it sort of having something that is kind of in in both two different ways, taken out of the original context and finding a different way of people listening to it? Does that change how you hear the music as well? Like, do you like, when you listen to like always, forever, does it through the eyes of, or ears of, people that discovered it through TikTok? Does it mean something different to you now?
Speaker 3:It. Honestly, it's like it's kind of like surreal, like you could even like go back. I don't know how you could find it, but you could go back and find interviews from 2010 or 11 where, if they asked us, like what we're doing, we would say that we're trying to make a record that people are going to find in the future and think like whoa, you know what is this weird thing, you know, and like that's kind of exactly what happened for like Jance E on TikTok. You know, like they like this always, forever, was a song that we, when we made it, thought like oh, this is like our next song. This is like the going to be like the single of this record. This is going to be like huge, and the people we are working with the label at the time were like no, and they, it wasn't even a single, you know, and it was disappointing. You know, like we couldn't get a budget to make a music video, like we didn't get any like radio, you know stuff, and but we knew it was good. You know we always loved playing it and when, I don't know, I kind of think about the fact that some of these and then like with Gilbert Lilly now too, like these songs, like doing well on that.
Speaker 3:That like platform is that I think it kind of comes from our like film Background kind of, or like our film perspective towards it, that like we were like kind of making like they're like soundtracks, you know, and people are making videos which are essentially like little movies for them, and so when it started succeeding in that like platform, I was like, oh, this makes sense, like we just had to wait for there to be a way to make this into like movies and then like, yeah, so it's, it's like very surreal and super cool and like and never, I mean in million years, couldn't have imagined that this would be like how that would happen.
Speaker 3:I mean, like we said when we started this band, we were selling 99 cents singles on iTunes. There was no, there was no Instagram, you know like, and sometimes I hear people like I mean it's happened like four times. So people are like, oh, this is the new technology, this is how the world is now everything's going to change, and then the world just changes again. So it's like that's like you know, this is like a moment that we're like enjoying right now, but it's like certainly something new is around the corner and like every record cycle.
Speaker 2:It's a new thing, yeah.
Speaker 3:But the fact that we've been able to ride the different ones has been like such a crazy gift. You know there were several, like every every transition where, like that's it, you know we're going to get lost, like we're not going to make this, this jump, you know, and we've just like somehow managed to like hang in there. And it's like you know, we're still hanging.
Speaker 1:That's so cool, and would you just? I mean, from what you're saying, that sounds like really optimistic, do you do? You think you're both optimistic people, or you know, on a sort of like spectrum of optimism one and pessimism at the other? Where, where do you swing, maddie?
Speaker 2:I would say that you're delusional. You're optimistic when it comes to certain things. I think we're both pretty, pretty neutral in the middle, but we both are willing to fight to stay alive. I wouldn't say that either of us. Well, I don't know. What do you think?
Speaker 3:I think I'm very optimistic and you're very realistic and that I don't and, like you know, I rely on that a lot but it's it's, it's, it's a wild thing. You know, I actually had it conversation with Nade's mom, who was using really good advice, and she was like, when all that stuff started happening with Gilda Lilly, I was like man.
Speaker 3:So like is this kind of it? You know, like, how should I be feeling about this? Like this is like. Have we kind of like made it? You know, like is this? Like we have all these songs that are doing really well, and like it's been so long? And she was like. She was like just the fact that you're asking you have your answer. No, she was like. You know, she's like. If you ever think, as an artist, that you are great, you're heading towards being mediocre, and if you ever think, as an artist, that you're bad, then you are bad. You know she's like. You've like signed up for a life of like striving and like that's the deal that you've made, that like. If you want to like be like good, you're never going to be able to believe it. You have to like keep thinking that your next thing is going to be what really is the thing that that proves it. You know what I mean. Like it's and I was like shit.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a kind of a weird foul. I don't know if it's Faustian, but it's sort of like the bargain yes, the bargain you make, isn't it Definitely, I think. But I think it's also good, like it's good, to check in with ourselves from time to time about that as well, isn't it Like? I think? Like I don't know about you, but I definitely know that for myself, and I think just in humans generally is there's a tendency for, like ego, egos to grow with compliments and then you suddenly realize you're quite far away from where you were a little bit before you know you can be on one track and then a compliment or a bit of success can take you somewhere else.
Speaker 3:That isn't perhaps where you should be and we've already seen it where, like you know, we had like a lot of success in the beginning and then like backlash and, like you know, and down rounds, you know, and that the wheel of life just like turns, you know, and what you have in that scenario is like your relationship, you know, and if, like that's like, if we were a band of like four people, we would not be a band today, you know, like it would be too much, there would be like it's I don't know how anybody keeps bands together of, like you know, four or five people through adversity, you know it seems impossible, but the fact that you know it's just two of us and we have I'm not hearing about them anymore.
Speaker 3:I know, well, it's sad. I mean, like, you know, like the amount of bands that that we started out with, you know that had the same, we played the same shows with that have the same things, and you know, almost none of them are around anymore. But because of little weird goofy personal things, you know, not because they weren't great bands and that's like. And also just because like, because I think a lot of it's because of expectations, like we never. We were always so stoked, we never really had any like entitlement, you know what I mean. Like we're just like, like we just want to keep doing this, you know, and like so when things you know didn't go our way at certain points, we're like well, we're back to this point, we'll just build it up again.
Speaker 1:So would you say like the most important thing, then, is just to kind of keep making music.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's another thing, that that his mom said to us when we dropped out of college. She was like first, don't drop out of college. And if you do, like you know the bargain is once again is that if you do this, you can have a life and a career doing it, but you can never stop, like, if you ever see yourself stopping in the future, just don't start, because, like, you'll be way behind on life and you'll be like bummed and you'll wish you know, be like what. What could have happened? This that you know like. So if you want to do this, like, if you're committing to it, commit to it all the way you know. And that was like advice that we heard when we were 21. So, of course, we were like I'm all in.
Speaker 1:Well, perhaps without realizing it, because I think now that I've been kind of working in kind of creative work for 25 years or so and I feel like the idea of I mean I've had like the occasional kind of day job in between or sometimes time, but I feel like I'm intrinsically underqualified to do just basic human life. Yes, it's so true.
Speaker 3:We took kind of a hiatus between the second and third records to like learn how to be humans.
Speaker 2:To learn how to cook an egg.
Speaker 3:To learn how. Yeah, exactly, and people like ask us about that and it seems weird to to like people who are used to like a kind of like you know, glossy celebrity, but it's like it wasn't glossy for us. Like we're like in the trenches, you know we were sleeping like on the floor of the van. You know like so doing that for like five years straight. We're like we need a fricking, we need a life. You know, like we and managing those two things has been like challenging. That is much better. I yeah, I guess You're the one of state in your little cabin.
Speaker 3:I'm in my snow cave yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh that, that was it, maddie, and.
Speaker 3:Brian, thank you so so much for chatting with us.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that was me, Paul Hanford, talking with Maddie and Brian from Colts, and we had that conversation on the 10th of January 2024. Thank you so much for sharing me your thoughts and your time there to Maddie and Brian. Yes, so Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica. Audio Technica are global but still family run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones studio quality yeah, affordable products, because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible to all. My book Coming to Berlin is available in all good bookshops or via the publisher of Lost, in your Press's website, and the music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every show is done by Thomas Giddens. Hyperlink to check out his stuff in in the podcast description. It is really I'm stood outside in Berlin and it's really really really fucking cold, so I'm going to go inside have a coffee. I hope, whatever you're doing today, you're having a beautiful day and, yeah, chat to you soon.