Episode 44: The Psychology of Fashion with Dr. Carolyn Mair

Carolyn Mair, Ph.D., was always drawn to the world of fashion and even made her own creations while in university. Amid her doctoral research, Dr. Mair saw the opportunity to apply the benefits of psychology to the processes of the fashion industry to facilitate a healthier relationship between us and the garments we wear every day.  

This episode of Menninger Clinic’s Mind Dive Podcast features Dr. Mair, accomplished psychologist and author, joining hosts Dr. Kerry Horrell  and Dr. Bob Boland for a discussion of fashion and how it affects our mental health. She’ll also touch on the hidden responsibilities that the fashion industry has regarding human development.  

A behavioral psychologist and published author, Dr. Carolyn Mair has a Ph.D. in cognitive neuroscience from Bournemouth University. Before founding her own firm, Dr. Mair worked as a professor at the London College of Fashion, where she pioneered the field of fashion psychology, creating the world’s first master’s course in the field.  

“When you put something on that you feel great in, it changes how you interact with people and how you feel about yourself,” said Dr. Mair. A pressing issue across the industry that the doctor has been working to change is the lack of standardized sizing across brands. The buying of clothes is important as a means of self-expression, so when it is derailed, it can be a source of great psychological distress. This is why Dr. Mair works with brands at the manufacturing level to create more uniform sizing. Creating a positive experience helps shoppers avoid those moments of distress and makes them much more likely to shop with a specific brand again, according to Dr. Mair’s research. 

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Transcript

Dr. Bob Boland: 0:02

Welcome to the mind dive podcast brought to you by the Menninger Clinic, a national leader in mental health care where your host, Dr. Bob Boland,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 0:11

and Dr. Kerry Horrell. Twice monthly, we dive into mental health topics that fascinate us as clinical professionals, and we explore those unexpected dilemmas that arise while treating patients. Join us for all of this, plus the latest research and perspectives from the minds of distinguished colleagues near and far. Let's dive in Welcome back to the mind dive podcast today we are very, very excited to have with us Dr. Carolyn Mayer. Dr. Mayer is a behavioral psychologist who is the founder of her own consulting firm where her work supports fashion brands and businesses to build and sustain strong positive relationships and ethical processes within and across their systems to functions and customers, which is so freakin cool. She received her PhD in cognitive neuroscience from Bournemouth University and as a published author. before founding her own firm, Dr. Mayer worked as a professor at the London College of Fashion where she pioneered the field of fashion psychology and created the world's first Master's course in applying psychology to the world of fashion. And that's what we're going to be talking about today is the psychology of fashion. And that, to me is deeply exciting. So welcome to the podcast. Dr. Mayer. Yeah, I am excited.

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 1:40

Thank you so much, Kara. It's a delight to be here. Thank you.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 1:44

You know, we don't put our videos out for the podcast. You know, we're only audio but you know, I think if our listeners ever saw Bob and I are real, we're I think we dress nice. Oh, yeah. Did I did I think about what I was gonna wear today. Especially in light of this? Yeah, I did. Of course.

Dr. Bob Boland: 2:05

Can you just tell us a little about your career? Yeah. How you got interested in the whole idea by the psychology of fashion. Okay.

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 2:10

So I've had a long career. Obviously, when you get to my age, you've done a lot of things and a lot of different jobs. So I've always been interested in fashion. So even when I was at school, I used to make clothes. And then when I have my kids, I make clothes for them. And then I make clothes for my friends, kids, and then for my friends. So I've always been interested in fashion. And later on in my life, I went to university quite late. Oh, my first job was window dresser, I should say. So I'm known as a visual merchandiser now. a window dresser, which I absolutely loved. It was really great fun time to think how many years later, 20 years after that after leaving school, so I left school as soon as I could, because I didn't like school. And twenty years later, I went to university to do a degree, which was psychology and computing. And much as I've always loved fashion, I've always been so interested by psychology. And its two main goals for me are one understanding human behavior and to helping people live their lives better. So for me that the whole essence of psychology was about helping people. So I did my degree in psychology and computing went on, and then obviously, to my masters, and then my PhD. My PhD was super theoretical and I really wanted to get back to the application of psychology to the helping people. Yeah. And so when I started, after my postdoc, when I started lecturing in psychology, I was able and very fortunate, I suppose to do to create a unit, just one unit in applying psychology in all different areas. So any area where humans were involved, which is pretty much everything. And then after, I think I was at that university for seven years, I got invited to go to London College of Fashion, to give a talk about psychology in relation to fashion because that was one of the applied areas that I created in my previous university. So my talk was entitled The importance of psychology and fashion and talking about all the different areas and for me, there is no single area in the fashion industry that could not benefit from the application of psychology. And I did my talk and it went down. Well, I was invited back seems so it seems so yeah. And I was so excited. I was invited back and asked how could I bring psychology to London College of Fashion, which I should say here is part of the University of the Arts London, which has six different colleges. Central Saint Martin's is very well known for design and the College of Fashion also for designers. And it was for other SR colleges. So I started there in 2012, and wrote the masters courses in 2012 that specifically apply psychology in the context of fashion. And the MSC was accredited by the British Psychological Society, the equivalent of the APA, as a benchmark of quality to make sure it was alone, really rigorous course, that actually enabled students who wanted to go on for charter ship to be able to do that through the through the British Psychological Society. So that was super important for me. And the courses were became the Flagship courses of the college, which is exciting. I left there in 2017, because I don't like repeating too much. And I also wanted to work much more closely with the industry, I wanted to help them become more ethical and more sustainable, much more quickly than I felt I could if I was an academic. So in 2017, I started my consultancy, and since then that's what I've been doing,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 6:07

I am already going a million different places in my mind, because I do as a person. I love fashion. And I mean, I'm not, you know, it's not like, I'm not skilled at it, but I'm very interested in it. And I and I appreciate it. My sister shout out to my sister Katie, she is incredibly fashionable, and I steal all of my fashion hope from her.

Dr. Bob Boland: 6:30

I wish I could say the same. I just curious, curious, like, did you even know this field existed?

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 6:36

No, that's what I was gonna say is I don't even. But I never thought about this. This really, I mean, important part of being a human, which is how we cover our bodies, how we put things on our bikes, how we even reflect parts of our personalities through what we wear, and how we and I'm, I'm even thinking like, I'm, I have tattoos, I don't even email like tattoos and how like, I express myself through these these channels of fashion, I have to say, it all makes sense to me, there would be a psychology of fashion. And I have never, ever, ever heard that phrase, I have not encountered it. And so maybe stop one on my list of questions I'm already thinking about would be like, what are the topics that fall under the umbrella of the psychology of fashion? A lot? Yes. That's a huge question. Or how would you orient people to what this field is?

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 7:31

I think what you said before Kerry is super important. So you know, it is part of who we are. It's part of our identity, we portray our identity, through our appearance. Yes, given that fashion, is our appearance from head to toe, it includes hair, it includes cosmetics, it includes us it is it includes tattoos, piercings, every single thing that we have on our bodies, is now fashion or nails. And given that it is so close as the closest exactly, it's a close thing to our bodies. And so it is our second skin, and the relationship between psychology and fashion. And once you hear about it once, once that the pairing is made, it seems super obvious,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 8:18

right? Yeah. Because it's gonna be so related to like embodiment, like we are, we are embodied people. We live in a body we walk around the world about. And as humans for the most part, we walk around and bodies in which we cover up. And we wear clothes, and we put things on our body. So again, it's like, yeah, it's like as you say it, it's like, well, it makes 100% sense that there would be so much psychology related to how and why we do what we do in regard to fashion. But it is, it's novel to me again, it's an area of life that I've never intersected with psychology. Yeah,

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 8:52

no, I understand. And it was the same. When I first started out at London College of Fashion people, it was very new to them. But once we started talking about not only the closeness of the end product to our bodies, but also the entire industry. So I'm interested in the entire fashion industry. So not just the end product, the clothes or the the jewelry, or the glasses or the other kind of additions we put on our body. I'm interested in how the fashion industry engages with humans, how the fashion industry enables its consumers empowers its workforce and treats people with respect with decency and inclusion and representation. A right across the industry. There is absolutely no area that isn't touched by humans, even AI. You know, people might think, oh, that's the machine doing that. But actually, someone is writing the algorithms I know that algorithms can produce themselves. Nevertheless, there is someone at the beginning. Yes, and What goes into those algorithms will make a difference to what comes out of them. And how we interpret the results of machine learning is something that psychologists have very, very well prepared for understanding bias, understanding, prejudice, understanding all these things that matter when we're looking at big data. And low loads of psychologists work anyway, in AI in those areas, and in statistics, which is obviously closely related. So even in those areas where where people might think it's not a psychological area is hugely psychological. So

Dr. Bob Boland: 10:37

now, you start in the academic world, and you move to the business side of things and stuff like what is just to make more of an impact, I imagine, but what was there, what was the motivation for that, or I

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 10:48

I felt the fashion industry had a lot of problems, that psychology, the application of psychology, could really help solve, or at least go towards finding solutions for the problems that they had. And I believe that that things are changing whether or not as a result of the psychology that is being put into that now, there is more interest in a human side, understanding the damage that can be done by the problems in the fashion industry, and steps that have been taken to do that. So it was the real motivation was to make things happen faster than I felt I could, as an academic running two courses that

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 11:30

I as someone who has just sort of a little bit of a terse relationship with academia, it is it's like, you can spend so much time collecting data, writing papers, writing paper, no one reads it. It's just like, Oh, my God, the actual making an impact. And I think that's really cool. I wonder if you could say more about what you might consult to clothing companies or fashion industry companies about, especially in regard to the human impact of the fashion industry? Like, maybe we could start with cuz I'm sure there's stuff on both sides. But we could start with what are the more negative impacts that the fashion industry? Yeah, I want to hear more about that. I

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 12:06

mean, yeah, so lack of representation, for example. So it's been, it's been moving over the last, let's say, decade, slowly into being inclusive around skin tone. So we're seeing more models of color. But in the other terms of diversity, such as age, such as disability, such as its size, it's very, very slow, and it seems to be regressing. So we're seeing more and more now. I know it's awful. But in the models

Dr. Bob Boland: 12:43

now, right. I see occasion was, of course, the best looking old models ever seen. You know, all the same, they are clearly old, and skinny. Yeah, and skinny and perfect.

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 12:53

I think the number one is skinny. So models are taller now. And they appear to be even thinner. So we did have a phase where we had what was called plus size, which is like not even average size, but nevertheless bigger than a size double zero. But it seems to be regressing. So at last, the last fashion season, which was in September, this year, they were very, very few something like less than 1% of the models in all the shows in the four cities that have Fashion Week's were plus size. So

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 13:31

when you would you can so let's say a company would like to be more diverse, a more inclusive, they want to before

Dr. Bob Boland: 13:40

I do that, can I ask can I ask sort of a question? I said, Would you mind?

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 13:44

I? I'll let it I'll let it be.

Dr. Bob Boland: 13:47

I mean, here's my naivete. And it's I know, it's purely naivete. Good. But I think since I, you know, obviously know nothing about fashion, but maybe you want to say thanks. I mean, why do people buy these things work on a real guy. I mean, like, everyone knows, they don't look like the models they see. And they don't have did not in the size of the models. So why is it so effective for people,

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 14:10

because it's so as a lifestyle, fashion sells a fake need, it's not just the fashion marketing behind it, that creates this, this idea that we have a need for something and if we don't address that need, we're missing out or we're being sloppy, or we're just not part of the zeitgeist, that we're just, you know, irrelevant. And to be part of today's plays that we have to engage with fashion and there's lots of people who are gonna kind of, you know, want to be part of this, perhaps they have other things. They want to be part of it and also our social groups. If our friends are doing this, we want to fit in with them. You know, fashion allows us to fit in and to stand out simultaneously so we want to be part of a group. I

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 15:02

love that question though, because I do think I work almost exclusively with adolescents and young adults. And I was thinking about like we do to kind of take for granted, or we might even miss how much pressure, especially I think in that age group there is in regard to how do you begin to especially come into your own of how you want to dress, not what your parents are picking, how you want to express yourself, what that means about fitting in what it means about being relevant. And I mean, ultimately, my senses and you tell me if I'm way off base, but the fashion industry, much like any other industry in the world, is going to capitalize on people's insecurities and what they are, and these messages as a way to sell a product. I mean, it's, at least in part, it's gotta be about that. Like, if, if we want to sell our stuff, and we're gonna sell not just here's a t shirt and some jeans. But here's a way to be relevant, here's a way to be cool. Here's a way to fit in and feel good enough about yourself. And so that's a way to sell a product. And then of course, there's this huge underbelly of what happens when people don't wear the right clothes. I put that in quotations, the right clothes, or what, you know, the

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 16:11

no, absolutely. And I want my teenagers or adolescents, experimenting with our identity fitting in, you know, trying out. And of course, fashion not only capitalizes on our vulnerabilities, it creates vulnerabilities, because it's telling us that we need this, we need to do this, otherwise, we're not part of that. Now, which of course, at that age is so important. As we get older, we tend to have more confidence, and we care less about other people's opinions.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 16:47

I think that's where Bob's question was coming from Bob, it's like, Why does anybody care? Yeah, no,

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 16:52

and I, you know, I, I totally agree, we do become more confident, but as a teenager, you know, we are what I always say everyone's vulnerable, everyone's vulnerable. But as teenagers, you know, we have, you know, our hormones are going all over the place, our bodies are changing. We don't want our parents opinion, we want the opposite of what our parents are saying, we want to be in with our friends. And so we want to dress like them, we want to be fashionable influences. Now, of course, when we have the social media, you know, it's one off phone, it's the palm of our hand. It's like that all the time. It's like persuading us to buy things. And

Dr. Bob Boland: 17:33

there's a whole socio economic part of it, too. I mean, the fashion is expensive.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 17:37

Yeah. And, and, and we've, we've gotta see this as those moments I'm going to do to replace them I had, so let me be one that I was having was it's not only expensive, but I'm so appreciating, you're considering of sustainability, because it's not only it's a very expensive industry, but it's also an incredibly, for lack of better word very wasteful industry, if clothes every year are going out of style, like the textile industry is one of the industries that's hurting our planet the most, if I'm not mistaken.

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 18:05

No, you're absolutely right. And it's not going out of fashion every year, it's actually going out of fashion every week. You know, if you walk down a high street, yeah, you'll see the chain stores, they change their stock, their assortments at least once a week, and some are every two weeks, maybe, but they're the big ones every week. And so you buy something one week, and then you see the new stock in next week. So this is a huge problem, that the fashion and I'm doing in inverted commas here that what's fashion. And that's that's what fashion is based on. It's the premise that it's going to change, it's going to change all the time, but it's never changed as quickly as it's changing now. And the waste that comes with that is hugely problematic. And we have to find a way to one the brands need to make less, and that's the obvious one. And they can do so I believe and remain profitable because they companies by diversifying, doing different things with their business, you know, branching out into different areas that could make money and consumers have a responsibility to is to be careful about what they buy. And I absolutely want everybody whatever their economic status to be able to afford to look the best they can or just feel the best they can. So I'm absolutely not about spend more, but better because you know, I think it's super important that everyone any budget can look their best so you can still buy cheap clothes and look after them. You can wash them on cold water, you can you know treat them nicely. And then last, not all but if you look after them they can last so it's not a you know it's not true that the more you spend the better is quality audits

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 19:59

are When I think about my sister, I hope she let you know I'm sure No, I'm sure she wouldn't mind but I hope she listens. But she, you know, her and I always talked about it, she is somebody who cares a lot about she'll, she'll buy one piece that she really cares about, and she'll take very good care of it. And she's very thoughtful about what pieces cuz she's like phobic to waist, like she will think really hard about these peas. And again, I think the way she does it, I've always thought is very admirable, because I, you know, I, I just I've not thought about this, like keeping up

Dr. Bob Boland: 20:30

weekly fashion. It's very fashionable, we should question you, I think you're going to add grounds. Which

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 20:36

question? Well, yeah, well, the, the thing I was gonna say, was the flip side, I'm thinking about the flip side of, of the psychology of fashion, which is the benefits. Because, you know, Dr. Mayer, I was reading through your website in preparation for this episode, and I was looking at all the many, which people should definitely visit your website and look at the many, many articles you've written for the press about different things like I mean, it was everything from what do you wear to a funeral to stuff about makeup to stuff about identity, I mean, it was just really profound, like the scope of the kind of stuff you were covering. So I was thinking about, there's got to be a benefit to there's got to be the upside of the psychology of fashion of being able to express yourself to be able to I'll let you answer like what are what are some of the upsides of the fashion industry and being engaged in fashion and looking the best you can.

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 21:27

There are several upsides and I, you know, we have to focus on this. Otherwise, it gets really miserable if you think about all the problems. But there are lots of upsides. So one for consumers know, being careful about what they buy, looking after what they buy. So what your sister does is amazing, and that's fantastic. And really looking after what we buy, can keep keep things for much, much longer. And I've got things that didn't cost very much that I've had for a decade at least, but also the benefits of how we dress, if we're conscious, if we're aware of what our clothes can do for us, then we can use them as a kind of a facilitator for getting the best out of our interactions with it with other people. But it's having that awareness. So you know, what we put on will say something about us. So if we've not thought about it, it might say something that we didn't want it to say something that says to other people looking at us, something about us that we didn't want. So when we dress in a way that is conscious that I've gone to meet this person, I've dressed in a way that will give the best impression of myself that I possibly can. So it's tidy, it's I don't know, if you're going on a date, you want to look attractive, if you're going for a job interview, you want to look professional, competent, you know, do your homework, think about how the best that you can present yourself that really does portray who you are, or at least who you want to be in that situation. And I think those benefits of fashion are really profound. And then there's something that everyone can engage with, just by being conscious with it makes

Dr. Bob Boland: 23:15

me think of like many years ago, I went from like buying, you know, very cheap suits, suits to nicer suits that I could afford. And I remember one time like a faculty member or a senior faculty member was very junior at the time, who I really didn't, whose opinion I cared about and sort of came over to me at a party or something and said, like, tell me about his change. He just seemed more confident they were suddenly about you because I think you're really maturing, I'm getting like it's the suit the suit, that means I can never go back.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 23:43

Also even but I think that's probably that was really both true. Because I think about how even just the concept of pleasure and like as you know, someone who studies sexism and I'm very interested in like the concept, especially of like female pleasure and just like the ownership of that. And like I'm thinking about the pleasure I derive honestly sometimes just for myself and things like my nails, I'm showing my nails Okay, right now they can't see them. But I they're very nice now, but I like I love the experience of having my nails done. I love I love the feeling I have when I get a new pair of glasses I love I have. I have lots of different I wear glasses. Maybe our listeners don't know that I'm a glasses wearer so are you. Yeah, and I wear a lot of different kinds of glasses. And it brings me such joy. It is a part of life that makes me feel like this is exciting and fun and it just feels good. And I feel like that's got to be a part of what we can own that like what we wear for a lot of people and how we express ourselves through fashion feels good.

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 24:41

Definitely. And the fact that your faculty member, the senior faculty member addressed how how he thought you changed and that was probably, you know, subconscious for you but you might have been standing differently you felt more confident without realizing it. Being aware yourself that You felt more confident because you were in, in that suit. And the same with your nails and having this. So that's something that fashion can do. When you put something on that you feel great in, it changes how you interact with people and how you feel about yourself. But actually, we don't, you know, we're not islands. So we do interact with people. And I've got a story about this, I was in Montreal, and it was very cold. And I was, I had a puffer coat on not a smart one, but quite scruffy Africa because it was so cold. And there was a market and I just went into this market. And it was years and years ago. And there was a fur coat, so I don't wear it now. Because I think fur is really not acceptable anymore. But anyway, there's this fur coat, and in the market, and I and it was very cheap at secondhand, it was an old one. And I put on this fur coat. And I felt like a film star. The puffer coat off, put this fur coat on. And it was quite, it was quite old fashioned. I don't know how old it was. But yeah, big shoulders, and I'm quite small. So it was like, big, it had presence. And I just felt like a film star. And when I walked away from that market, I just felt like, like the queen just walked in this worker, it changed how I felt. Now sadly, that photo lives in a in a plastic bag in a suitcase, because I don't wear it anymore. But it is a thing of beauty.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 26:29

Yeah, but yeah, that experience of the way, gosh, that you change how you interact and show up and present yourself based on your clothes. And I think that there's something again, there's something important that we can capitalize on that while also drawing attention to not letting that go too far. Because that's the thing I'm thinking when it goes too far. And then people become so stressed about their external appearance and so overwhelmed by it, then it's becomes a problem.

Dr. Bob Boland: 26:56

When you're saying you consult to the fashion, like I understand what you're interested in, but that may not be always their interest, what what would they come to you because employee, so what did they come to you with whether the things during

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 27:08

some of the things I worked on, obviously diversity and inclusion, I've also worked on sizing, the problem of sizing. So the psychological issues that come about when you go into a store and you try on what you believe is your size, and it doesn't fit is typically for women want to be slimmer, men might want to be more muscular. So it might be the opposite. But for some people, that is a serious problem that will really upset them, if they go into by a size 10. And it doesn't fit them, they will not try on a size 12 They will go home and feel terrible about themselves. So sizing is one I've worked with sustainability, both environmental and social sustainability, even to addressing how the representatives from the sustainability functions can negotiate better with the providers or the manufacturers in the regions where the clothes are manufactured, because psychologists know how to negotiate it's part of psychological training. I've also worked with AI groups on ethical AI, making sure that customers who you know give their data, what know what they're getting, in exchange, know what the company is going to do with that data. So helping them write the scripts that go when you get consent.

Dr. Bob Boland: 28:32

We're never gonna have time for this. But so AI is involved in passion. Now, was this a different interest?

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 28:37

So yes, it's involved massively. So for example, you buy winter coat and the bad recommendation, and Jim will, will start sending you 20 More winter coats that you should buy, when you know you only want one whereas a good one. Yeah, exactly. But a good one will tell you what goes with a coat. So psychologists can help with that. I've also worked with HR human resources, helping them understand how to get one get the best out of their staff, but also looking at psychological safety in the company, how people can speak out without fear of retribution. To make a better company. It's everywhere. Everything

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 29:20

one maybe to also flip the script a little bit, thinking about how you might consult to mental health providers or hospital systems about things like fashion because like, again, I'm imagining that could be something that many systems think that's irrelevant to us. And yet, you know, thinking about even ideas of like being dehumanizing. You know, you recently talked about how hospitals dehumanize patients through clothing, and through what they allow people to wear or not wear. And I wonder if you can say more about that side of it of Yeah,

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 29:53

absolutely. So it just seems in some hospitals and I absolutely, totally get At most hospitals are understaffed, underfunded, and under resourced. So this is less of a criticism of that, but more about perhaps what could be done in an ideal world. So for example, having hospital gowns that are open at the back is really not respectful. Allowing where people are impatient, allowing them some degree of freedom to choose their clothes, rather than the easiest garment to put on. So some freedom to choose that not everything's elasticated and baggy, for example, or easy to get on and off. And I understand that in addressing people who can't dress themselves, potentially, that takes time, it needs a carer that needs funding, and so on. So these are in an ideal world, but also what the clinicians wear has an impact on patients. So understanding how clinicians dress, for example, red, I know I'm wearing red today, and red has a lot of different connotations that reckon excite us in different ways. So it can be stressful, as because it increases our heart rate. So on one hand, it's, it's considered to be like, you're rated more attractive, if you're wearing red, women are rated more attractive, you're wearing red, red lipstick is supposed to work like that. But also it's associated with blood and danger. And so for people who are feeling vulnerable, maybe wearing red as a clinician is not a good color to wear.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 31:34

I mean, I mean, the most I've thought about it is stuff like you know, certain necklaces or things we don't wear, because it could be a hazard for someone to to grab you and choke, you know, you know, I did think the once about, and I'm gonna butcher this, that there is like a pretty famous study or at least observation or something about like a particular color pink in the prison system, and that they painted like prison systems a particular color pink in it, like calm to paint it calm down the inmates. I'm, I don't know if this was a complete, fevered dream. But that does sound somewhat familiar to me. But like they've, you know, they've looked at different colors and different things, and how, of course, like it, you know, that does sound familiar, but no, have I ever actually made that think about what I'm putting on my body now? Yeah,

Dr. Bob Boland: 32:17

we're gonna talk about whether we should be wearing baits around the dress code about whether a doctor must wear a tie or not really? Yeah, I didn't know that. parts of the country I've worked in next

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 32:27

require that you wear a tie. I'm assuming you mean male doctors? Yes. Okay.

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 32:34

Wow. Well, I, I wonder if it would be better. I mean, I'm sure there are studies on this. But if there aren't, it would be a good study, if clinicians should dress in a similar way to the patient's would be would enable them to interact on a, you know, a, an easier level, let's say, it

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 32:54

brings me back to the idea of self disclosure. And that, like, we're, as much as we like to think we're not self disclosing, we're self disclosing all the time through all sorts of channels, including what we were, like, this is a self disclosure. So again, I think learning and thinking about how that impacts our patients can only help us again, I don't think there's gonna be like a right way or wrong way to do it. But just being thoughtful is is important. And I you know, we're starting to, to run out of time. And so I wonder if you can give us sort of a last word or especially in our pockets tends to geared towards mental health clinicians of, of what might be some things for them to be thinking about in regard to psychology of fashion to incorporate into their work as a clinician, with their patients, if

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 33:37

possible, and I would, you know, repeat this is would be in an ideal world, you allow patients some autonomy, and maybe some, some inpatients didn't have this autonomy and what they, what they choose to where they're able to have their own clothes with, you know, with restrictions, if that's necessary.

Dr. Bob Boland: 33:59

But a psychiatric hospital in many ways, including ours, that patients were

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 34:06

limitations, and maybe enable them I don't know, if they're allowed to work, cosmetics and have their nails done. You know, this is in an ideal world, the kind of things that give us pleasure, will give other people closer to when they when they have, you know, mental health issues problems. Also, I think clinicians thinking, I think it would be a very interesting study, to see how a more relaxed and definitely not ties, something that would be restricted in inpatient clinical setting would be not wear ties for the clinicians, for doctors, for male doctors, but to make him like seem quite similar in clothing. Yeah.

Dr. Bob Boland: 34:48

I mean, I don't ask I don't come in and patients dress when I'm with them reading them, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, I'm

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 34:56

not so I'm not sure unless it was consistent. Am I saying, Oh, you look, you look great. And then maybe the next time they you feel they don't look great. And then you don't say it. That could be a problem, I think yeah,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 35:09

I mean, it isn't just I again, I'm thinking about my, my specific population, you know, if a patient's wearing the same band over and over again in their clothing, I mean, I might notice like, Hey, you seem really interested in this band. Tell me about that. Or, yeah, gosh, you you wear a lot of Pokemon on your clothes that an interest of yours? I don't know. Like, I mean, I think there's, there's, there's space for it. Yeah. Why

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 35:32

did you choose that? You know, is to wear that today. Got it? What does that say about you? What are you What are you giving away by wearing that dress, top, trousers, whatever. I

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 35:45

don't think it's beyond that all the scope of what I know many psychotherapist do, which is comment if they look different than their baseline. Gosh, you know, normally you come in and you're wearing your work attire, and you wear makeup. And that feels really normal view. And today, you're wearing sweatpants, no makeup. I'm just curious what's going on. Like, I think that's totally within, like something therapists would say to their patient. I so feel like and I say this all the time on this podcast. But we could spend so much time this time, I really, really mean it. Because on so much time diving into the many facets of what you consult on. But thank you for introducing this topic I imagined to many of our listeners, but to me and like, I just find this really interesting and really cool. I really think it's I think caring about our patients humanity, caring about our world we live in and helping people do this thing that's so integral to what we do what we wear.

Dr. Bob Boland: 36:38

And I listen to your name, and I can attest that Google your name brings us to your website. Yeah,

Dr. Carolyn Mair: 36:42

thank you.

Dr. Bob Boland: 36:44

But thank you so much. Once again, we've been listening to Dr. Carolyn there. This is the mind dive podcast and I'm your host Bob Boland.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 36:52

And I'm Kerry Horrell and thanks for diving in. The mind dive podcast is presented by the Menninger Clinic. If you're curious about the professional experiences of mental health clinicians, make sure to subscribe wherever you listen. For

Dr. Bob Boland: 37:07

more episodes like this, visit www dot Menninger clinic.org. To

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 37:12

submit a topic for discussion, send us an email at podcast@menninger.edu