Identity, Mental Health, and Equity Work with Dr. Haley Sparks

You've probably heard about the importance of mental health, but have you ever considered how it intersects with issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion? Join us for a  conversation with Dr. Haley Sparks, the Director of VISIONS' Mental Health Program, as we explore the terrain of DEI work and mental health. Dr. Sparks, a personality psychologist by training, shares about her journey and offers a preview of her upcoming workshop on rest and sustainability at VISIONS' 2024 Spring Summit.

The revamped mental health program at VISIONS centers around a coaching model, and is designed to help clients engage in exploration of their identities through an anti-oppression lens.  If you've ever found DEI work challenging, you'll understand the importance of unpacking personal biases and negative experiences in a supportive environment, including the value of affinity work and the advantages of working with clinicians who share similar identities and experiences. 

Stay tuned for exciting updates on the Mental Health Program, VISIONS 2024 Spring Summit, and our 40th anniversary event, which will take place on September 27, 2024 in Boston, Massachusetts! 

See what's coming up at VISIONS!

About us
Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and liberation is a production of VISIONS, Inc, a non-profit that offers effective tools that help individuals and organizations communicate and forge connections across differences that drive collective success.

Since 1984, we’ve offered research-based, time-tested approaches to cross-cultural learning that invite participants to engage in equity and inclusion work, starting at the personal and interpersonal levels and expanding to include changes toward institutional and cultural levels.

Whether it’s a book club, around the family dinner table, a school board meeting, or within your company, VISIONS offers actionable approaches that empower people to identify actions, explore their motivations, and effectively move through sometimes complex situations with respect and humanity for others and their differences.

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Music credit: Tim Hall @tv_hall

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Transcript

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 0:00

Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a podcast about transformative change, equity and working against oppression. I'm Leena Akhtar, director of Programs with Visions Inc. Welcome, hi, everyone. I'm excited today to introduce you to Dr Haley Sparks, the Director of VISIONS' Mental Health Program. As some of you may know, the Visions model has deep roots in 20th century Libertory Social Psychology, which, in my humble opinion, is really our secret sauce. Haley and I talk a little about that here and you'll hear more in upcoming episodes as we delve deeper into the stories of our founders and elders.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 0:40

In honor of 2024 being Visions' 40th year of existence, I always love speaking and collaborating with Haley. In this episode, she talks about how she came to Visions and the work, about our mental health program and the importance of anti-oppression approaches to mental health coaching, and about the workshop she's offering in April at the Visions' 2024 Spring Summit. The theme this year is Trauma-Informed Approaches to Sustaining DEI, social Justice and Anti-Oppression Work. Haley will be offering a workshop on the importance of rest and what the seven different types of fatigue and corresponding types of rest are. The goal of this summit is to offer people concrete strategies for staying in the work without burning out, and we'll be leaning heavily into our roots with clinical work. For that I'm also excited to confirm that one of our headline speakers is Dr Gabor Mate, who'll be speaking about compassion, fatigue and burnout. Stay tuned for details and we're recording.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 1:33

I'm super excited to be today with Dr Haley Sparks, the director of Visions' Mental Health Program, and so many other things. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Dr Sparks and her work. Welcome, haley.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 1:47

Thank you, Leena. I'm very, very happy to be here. I'm happy to talk about some of the work that I'm doing with Visions. I'm excited to talk about the mental health program and I'm here to talk about where I hope to see this work going broadly. I'm really happy to be here and talking about how we can sustain ourselves in the work. Beautiful.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 2:12

So, before we get started, haley, would you introduce yourself to people who aren't familiar?

Dr. Haley Sparks: 2:16

with you, sure, hi everyone. I'm Dr Haley Sparks. I got my PhD in my Masters of Social Work at the University of Michigan. My doctorate is in personality psychology, in personality and social context. I think those studies really inform all of the work that I do.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 2:40

As you said, I am the director of the mental health program here with Visions. I'm also the director of equity, diversity and inclusion in external affairs at UCLA. I see the work all melding together. I am a clinician by training, so through my Masters of Social Work I was able to practice therapy with individuals, couples, groups and families. And UCLA.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 3:11

I always say, basically in a nutshell, I work with staff over at UCLA, external affairs and is everything outside of the university.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 3:20

So development, folks who raise money for the university, advancement services, folks who manage said money once it's raised, alumni affairs and government and community relations. My job in a nutshell is to make sure there's a sense of belonging. So really, my work at Visions really beautifully, in my opinion, overlaps with my work at UCLA, where I'm trying to think as deeply as possible about how we get to more justice, more inclusion, in a way that feels thorough and deep, and I think that's what drew me to the Visions model. We'll talk a little bit about that in a little bit, but I think that's what drew me to the Visions model in the first place is just how in depth we're going, just how intricately we are tying the self we always say in Visions we're practicing self-focus and how that really ties into all that we do in the DEI EDI Jedi, what we want to call it diversity, equity and inclusion space. So I'm really excited about the depth at which we're going at Visions and where that can lead us in the future.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 4:33

Beautiful. Thank you. First off, a curiosity question. You alluded briefly to what you wrote your doctoral dissertation on. Tell me a little bit more what you mean about personality.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 4:45

Oh, man, okay, Personality At the time when I started my doctoral program, I didn't know it, and I love the melding of personality and social context, because to me, personality is a conglomeration of your intersecting identities, your experiences, your perspectives, your motivations, your underlying hopes and dreams, all those things wrapped up into what gives you this thing that we call personality, that is ever-changing, ever-moving, which is both a beautiful thing and a sticky thing, a complicated thing at times. And really the personality, mixed with the social context that people are in, is where I try to dive in when I'm thinking about how can we create more equitable, socially aware, justice-focused environments for all.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 5:47

Interesting. I have many questions that I will ask you at the time. Yes, so you do work with UCLA and then you're also the director of our mental health program here at Visions. I'm curious how you found Visions. I don't think I know this.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 6:04

Yes, yes, Okay, I love this story. Bear with me because it's a long story, but I very much am a full circle type of person. I believe in fate. I believe when things are aligned they happen. So I want to take us a step back and then I will get to how I got to Visions.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 6:23

But when I started my doctoral program, I was feeling a little bit not entirely fulfilled with the work that's going on. And I will always say pacing is something that I kind of struggle with. That is because I want to see change done yesterday. So at times when I was kind of trudging through the process that is research, I was feeling at times like, okay, I'm not making an impact fast enough now, now, now, now, now, now, which is absolutely something that I need to work on and I have been working on for the past few years. That'll get into my interest and rest now when we're talking about the work. But at the time I was like, wait, how can I impact people in a more tangible way right now? So I added my masters of social work while I was doing doctoral program so I could do research and also be seeing people in real time doing therapy. Because, like no, I want this one-on-one or group setting where I see change. You know, okay, somebody did their therapy homework and they're, you know, kind of improving their lives or what have you, or making those shifts, making those changes. And that was really exciting for me, in both the therapy room and at the University of Michigan, though I was seeing that there were grave needs for DEI in every step of the way.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 7:47

I think, Leena, you and I have talked about I was doing sliding scale therapy because I was funded by the university so I could afford to have people pay me what they could afford to pay. Sometimes it would be as low as a dollar an hour and because I was working with a number of folks who could afford to make as low as a dollar an hour, it kind of resulted in clinicians who were more privileged in terms of their identities, in terms of, maybe, their partners who were able to fund them. I was like, okay, if we're all kind of privileged financially, we need to be doing some real deep DEI work so that we can serve our clients better. And really that deep DEI work is what led me to visions, All of the offerings that I was seeing in university or more corporate settings. It felt to surface level, especially as I'm going as deep as I possibly could and being pushed to go there in my dissertation.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 8:51

At the time I was finding the DEI space was like the trainings that I was familiar with are being offered. It wasn't going nearly as deep or getting into the personality as I wanted. And I found myself one day talking to my oldest brother about this. He lives in Austin and I was like you know, Brandon that's my brother's name, Brandon it's not hitting for me, these trainings are not landing for me, which is hard because I care about this work but it does not seem to be starting where we need to be starting. And he was like that's actually really interesting.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 9:28

I have a friend who's on the board of an organization who was just talking to me about this. Said friend was on the board of visions. He connected me with her, who connected me to Elika, executive director, and we talked about similarly feeling uninspired and not as challenged, not like we needed to. We weren't going as deep. It wasn't feeling as substantive and Elika kind of introduced me to the visions model and I was hooked from day one. I was hooked. It was hard. You know my first pace. I'm sure we'll talk about it a little. My first pace really did encourage me to go there in terms of myself, my own background, my own experiences in ways that I hadn't found before, and it really was kind of the missing piece to me for DEI work.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 10:18

Beautiful. I didn't realize that, so your connection was via a board member. So for people who are just listening to this and who don't see you on video, as I do now, you know you're both are coming to this from particular. You know social locations and I'm curious what you're like, what you want to share about your first pace experience, especially given your training and background and interests.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 10:45

Almost, almost like be careful. What you wish for, I will say. The vision's mental health program is almost, excuse me, the revamped mental health program because you know we have to honor our history.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 11:00

There's a decades long history at visions of having clinicians offer mental health support. So we're reviving something that has existed for a while in visions, but it kind of was born out of my first pace session and really uncovering things. So one of the things that we do is called our first encounter with difference, where we reflect on a time, preferably before age 10, where we first observe differences between individuals. That can be between yourself and somebody else or between two individuals you're observing. So for folks who are not seeing me, I'm a cisgendered black woman who and this is always something that I talk about in terms of visions offering those are kind of more my, my able bodied cisgendered black woman. Those are some of my more apparent identities and I would say one of the identities I first became aware of was that I was a daughter without a mother. So when I was six years old my mother was killed tragically in a car accident and my first experience with difference was I was in the car accident with her and my first encounter with difference was coming back to school. I wasn't second grade and coming back to school with my peers and, of course, being very painfully and palpably aware of that difference now with my peers, you know, and especially at age six, that's one of the first things that people ask you know, what do your mommy and daddy do? And I very quickly became aware like, oh, that is a difference that I now have.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 12:52

And I think being in a space with folks who were ready and willing and prepared and equipped to go there with me to explore those kinds of experiences and that's that's one of many it brought up a lot in me that needed to be brought up and made me palpably aware that at times I feel like I'm not around folks who are equipped to go there and help me really dive into how that might be impacting how I show up in spaces, how I interact with folks, you know, at work, at home, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 13:31

I think that is frankly a luxury that I think everybody deserves. And that's why I am so excited and passionate about the vision's model, because I think I have always felt like, wow, people can't really go there with me, and it does feel important to go there. And then, once again, when I finally got the opportunity, I also thought it probably feels very important to have systems within visions put into place where folks can have additional support to investigate and process these things with trained clinicians, which is where the mental health program comes in.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 14:14

Thank you, who were your pace one facilitators, just out of curiosity. Yeah, that was genie and Jabari, amazing.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 14:22

Okay, yeah, it was good and you know, of course there they're on East Coast time and you know pace can be kind of intense and I was in California so I was getting up at four in the morning, but I will say, for those intense for maybe five days it felt worth it. It felt very worth it to get up at that time and, you know again, to engage with folks who I felt like were equipped to do that type of deep Self-worth. That I really believe is the key to DEI. I think it's what's gonna unlock progress for us.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 15:04

You know what you just said about people who have the ability to go there. I think that summarizes really nicely what we Really have to offer and what differentiates our approach. It's deep, affective capacity building, tools for self-management, tools for being able to contain hard stuff, and you and I have had conversations before in our respective roles he was director of the mental health program, me as director of programs About what the potential is for people who are confronting Certain issues, particularly around race and around oppression more generally, and how Support can be hard to find out in the world. Not all practitioners, for instance, are comfortable or nor do they have the capacity to talk about it. So you know we both have strong feelings and impossibly experiences around this. I certainly do, and I'm curious how you're, how you've been thinking about it, right and and and maybe this is a good point to Seg to what is the mental health program?

Dr. Haley Sparks: 16:10

Yeah, well, okay, we can start with the mental health program and why. I think it speaks to some of the potential challenges that you Are alluding to. So the revamped mental health program here at visions is really an opportunity for current and potentially new clients to engage with our clinicians in a coaching model To gain additional support as you investigate your own personal experiences, your own Personal biases, your own personal perspectives and let me be clear, we all have our biases In a way that feels Supportive, that feels safe to the extent that we can ensure that of course, we can't always Guarantee it, I would never lie to folks that way and in a way that feels structured and gives folks Really an environment to explore things that perhaps they had never Done when it comes to their identities and what might come up as they are trying to be anti-racist, socially justice focused folks, because it really is. It's hard work. When we say, do the work, you know, especially in the mental health of therapy context, I think we really intentionally frame it as labor or work, because it's hard, it is Strenuous and, just as you know, it's not the same like at times. Use you know like a Personal trainer, just as some folks find it really helpful to have a personal trainer to give you structure, to give you ideas about how to Move one's body in a way that is accessible and safe for that specific individual in their body. That's the same idea with the mental health program is how can we create structure, strategies, practices that are specifically tailored for each individual as they try to investigate their own perspectives and experiences and try to go deeper and deeper and deeper into the ocean? That is DEI work. So, to Go back to your original question about the potential challenges, which you know, I know, we know you and I have talked about you, and I have talked about the ordeal that is therapist shopping At times, trying to find the right fit, and I don't I don't even know if we've talked about this, but the potential power dynamics you know.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 18:56

Okay, I'm looking for a therapist. Maybe this is my first time, I haven't done this work before, so now I don't even know that I can even really question this person. Maybe they've made an assumption is necessarily correct, but they're the expert. What do I know? You know, I've never been to therapy before, but or maybe I have been to therapy before but I'm still just kind of learning, or I'm in a really raw spot. And then of course it's do you even accept my insurance? You know there's so many different moving pieces when trying to find A therapist in the first place, let alone finding a good fit.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 19:35

And what I think is really exciting About visions mental health program is one that we are explicitly Acknowledging that this work is hard. Dei work is hard. You know, sometimes, I think, especially in the workplace context, we just throw folks in like, all right, get in there, like you should want to include your colleagues, so you should know how to do it. We don't know how to do this work. We were never this, this type of work was never taught to us, it was never emphasized, it was never valued. So we need to be starting way at the beginning about what it even looks like to be able to communicate with one another Effectively, and then understand that because we are all out of practice or maybe we're never in practice in the first place, it's going to be strenuous at times and then, once you find that maybe it was strenuous and maybe something did come up for you, then I think the beautiful thing about the mental health program Is that we have folks, individuals, in place who help to match you with a mental health coach.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 20:40

That could potentially be a good match for you, you know, and of course it's never a guarantee, but I do think there's something very helpful about, almost like the boutique nature of the program that you meet with an individual myself I have a intimate knowledge of the various clinicians who are taking on new clients and then I will match you with someone who I do think is a good fit. So you don't have to do even more of that strenuous labor. You know you're already potentially working through something, and so then I help to shoulder that burden, shoulder that labor to fit you with somebody who I think could really match up to what you're looking for, what your needs are, where you would like to focus and what you would like to prop.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 21:34

Now I should say for people who aren't super familiar with visions or haven't been in our orbit for a long time, we are an organization that has deep roots in social psychology. We are very clinician heavy. Our model draws on those roots and leans heavily into what we refer to as the affective or the emotional component of how oppression surrounds us, threads itself through us, imprints itself on us and the world around us, and how emotionally strenuous it can be to navigate it, and also what kinds of things come up as we're unpacking the impacts of it, whatever side of the oppression we sit on. So the roster of clinicians that we have ranges. We have white clinicians, we have clinicians of color, we have a lot of queer clinicians on staff, a lot of queer people at visions, and I've been thinking about this for a long time.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 22:28

As you know, my training is as a historian of psychology and psychiatry and I've been thinking about the field and how has itself been steeped in really oppressive structures and how, having an explicitly anti-oppression approach that has been developed by people who are familiar psychologists themselves, etc. There's something really important and generative about that. The two scenarios that you and I have discussed I have experienced as a person of color, as a person who sits in my particular location, what a difference it has made for me to seek out a therapist whose identities are similar to mine and I didn't even know until I found that. And I've also talked to white people who, especially in the wake of what happened in 2020, have said I went to my therapist and they said, oh, when they were trying to work through feelings, the hard feelings that came up when they were confronting the things that this brought up, I don't know. I've heard responses about responses that were unhelpful 100%.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 23:30

One.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 23:31

I also have heard countless stories on both sides, certainly among my friends of color, you know, talking about the happy Indian stories where, you know, I finally found a therapist who does share some.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 23:47

You know, we're never going to have an exact match, but that's not a bad thing. You know there are some perspectives that are not your own or not. Your experiences can be helpful in the therapy room and you know it can be helpful, of course, like I said, a sister in black woman really helpful for me to be able to with a clear black person who was a clinician. And on the other side, you know, lena, as you said, we do have a lot of white clinicians who are steeped in the anti racism, socially justice focused work and they are well versed and excited and at the same time, humble and ready to work with white folks who are also excited and energized about doing their own work and they understand some of the processes that one might go through to try to process these things as a white person moving forward in this potentially heavy, sticky feel that we all have to go through.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 24:59

It reminded me of what I've conversations I've had with clients and other people about why affinity work can be so important.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 25:09

So for me and I've heard obviously a lot of people share this the deep, reflective, identity based work of visions was very much an eye opener for me, both in terms of thinking about my historically included identities as well as my excluded ones.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 25:28

When I say that, I'm thinking about my so called marginalized or one down identities, the places where I spent the most mental energy, maybe time, mental, emotional energy. Thinking about realizing that there were a lot of respects in which I had privilege was an eye opener for me. The other part is around the work that we do with modern oppression and what we call internalized oppression or survival behaviors that have stuck around, and in that respect, being able to do work in affinity spaces around other people of color, for instance, has been really helpful, because there's painful things that need unpacking in order to be healed, as you say, and that's not necessarily work that I want to do in an open group. That's work that is better done, held and facilitated in a room with people of color and then, similarly, across variables of historically included or one up identities and, given the time that we live in, around white racial identity in particular, unpacking that is work that really shouldn't necessarily usually shouldn't happen in front of people of color.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 26:40

There are many reasons. You know the previous summit that we worked on talking about getting rid of shame in this work.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 26:50

You know I look at shame as almost like go through fields is on, like, almost like a literal wall at times that I see I'll have to, whether it be within myself or with others, that I see myself having to un-mental brick by brick and by the time I get to the last brick I'm already exhausted and we haven't even gotten to the good stuff inside the wall.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 27:17

But shame can act as such a barrier that I could see really taking away from the work that needs to be done. And a lot of white folks or folks who are working on their white identity are looking forward to doing or know that it's very important to do. But you know I could see if they felt on display, you know, in front of others, that shame wall would come in. And now we're focusing on taking that down brick by brick rather than getting to the meat of why they're there. So I could see that being a huge reason why you know this affinity work can be important. In addition to you know, of course, that visions. We are very committed to minimizing harm, unnecessary where we can. And you know that type of almost doing that work in an amphitheater where everybody's observing you could cause harm to both the observer and the observed, and that's not something again that that feels like another barrier that doesn't have to be there.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 28:26

And because the work is so hard and lifelong in the first place, I do think at this point in time we want to minimize as many barriers as possible so we can get to the meat of the work for me, certainly in my included identities, I've always had an aha moment when I realize that it agreed to which my privilege or lack of disadvantage affects my experience, and that's not an aha that a person who lives this every day needs to hear about. Which is why. Which is why we do, which is why we do affinity work, just to give people the space that they need to really unpack it and show up differently, if that's what they want. Yeah, yeah, absolutely Beautiful. That's the mental health program. And then I've been excited at many points to be able to collaborate with you. Of course we did.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 29:17

The summit that panel that you presented on was wonderful. People are still talking about it for folks who don't know. The summit last year in 2023, was about taking shame out of the equation. So moving away from uncritical, just you know, discarding of people and seeing what the conditions are that people need in order to learn and show up differently and align with who they want to be right align their, their impact, with their intent.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 29:47

Our 2024 summit is coming together and coalescing really nicely and I'm excited to collaborate with you again on this. The topic this time around given that 2024 is going to be an election year, given just everything that has been happening over the past few years and is happening now the topic is about trauma informed self care and trauma informed community care recognizing that care is not just is not just an individual matter, but really that we are parts of a collective, and sustaining difficult work can take intentionality and strategy, especially now, especially given everything that's been happening, and I think that there's a lot of great lessons to be learned from clinicians in terms of how to stay engaged. So I've invited Haley to present a workshop and basically said Dr Sparks, you can do whatever you want and Haley tell us, tell us what, what was top of heart and top of mind for you.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 30:52

I clean. I love that you described, at the very least, where we want to be going is making this work sustainable. I've talked a lot, you know, one of our visions founders, dr Val, my mentor. I talked with her a lot about her trajectory in this world in doing this work and I talked to her a lot about the ebbs and flows that she's seen doing this work and the ebbs and flows she's seen in the world and where she feels like we've made significant progress, and at times, also talking about warning periods that she's had to go through where she thought more progress would have been made. And I won't I don't want to put more words in her mouth and I potentially already have, but I've been thinking a lot, you know, in light of those conversations with Dr Val, thinking about how can we make this work sustainable for folks who are in it. Because you know, I look at Dr Val and I don't know what I would have done if, 20 years ago, she'd been like you know what I'm too tired, I'm too, I'm too burnt out, which you know we talked about trauma. Informed burnout is trauma. Make make no mistake about it. It is the result of sustained and acute trauma. And right. If Dr Val had thrown in the towel, lord knows where I would be not not in a good spot, and so you know, I think goodness that somehow she has sustained herself and made the work sustainable for her. And how do we continue to invite folks in to do the work? I think one of the most ethical ways to do so is to continue to create sustainable models. I'm not comfortable with inviting somebody into my home if it's a hellscape in there. You know, how can we make this work sustainable and humane for the folks who are already in the house and folks who we want to invite in? One of the main ways I see doing that is being intentional about how we sow the seeds of rest into the work.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 33:16

I think one of the biggest challenges or barriers, I would say, in really emphasizing how important rest is is, at times, I feel like, especially in some of the western cultures I in American person I live at least part time in America is this hustle culture that we see in American, in western cultures. That, again, if you ask me, is very not sustainable and I think bleeds into the workplace big time. Or maybe it was even born in the workplace. Let's be real. Where, then? Where we're in this hustle culture?

Dr. Haley Sparks: 33:54

So the ideas of self care or rest are seen as optional, if not shameful in themselves. And so how in the world, how do we help folks who are existing in these systems where resting is seen as something that you have to keep a secret, or you have to avoid as much as humanly possible, or you should feel shame or lesser than about? How do we then turn it on his head and be like actually rest is a very important strategy to doing the work. That is like the antithesis of what so many of us have learned about what it means to do any work work and rest our opposites and so many of our heads, whether it be conscious or subconscious, and really in my series or my workshop, that is what I want to focus on.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 34:55

I'm going to be deriving a lot of what I speak about from Dr Sondra Dalton Smith, who talks about the seven different kinds of rest, which I think is really brilliant, really important, really helpful for me in terms of how I've framed rest in my own life. I think a lot of times rest implies cessation in people's heads. So rest implies you have to stop doing something and for a lot of folks, yeah, probably probably need to stop doing a lot of stuff. And we can reframe rest to think about what can we add to our lives that fills us up, that replenishes us, that restores us. So I'm going to be talking about in defining the seven different kinds of rest in the corresponding seven different times of fatigue, and helping people determine for themselves, in their specific context, what intentional, consistent rest can look like in their lives as they're trying to create more sustainable ways of going at the work.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 36:01

Beautiful, so I have thought about sustaining the work ever since I did crisis counseling working with survivors of interpersonal violence and I was a frontline responder, so I would show up in the emergency room and be a medical advocate, and that was rough work, as you can imagine yeah and that's when I started thinking about strategies for how to not burn out, flame out, and I learned a lot from our supervisor in that program, and it was a combination both of personal strategies, some of which I still implement to the state, many of which inform how I show up in this work, and also she was very smart about ensuring that us, the group of medical advocates, were a very close knit community.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 36:49

We would socialize, we were friends. So if it was like 7am and I just had a very rough night in the ER, there was a whole bunch of people I could call, not worry about shocking them with what I was going to say, right, and where I could, you know, get a little bit of support and feel connected as opposed to feeling isolated and disconnected yeah, absolutely and then there were other strategies, like you know, monitoring my intake, keeping my entertainment really light right, being careful what kind of conversations I got into yeah, like just all sorts of things.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 37:22

Then, obviously, when I was writing my dissertation, which was about the history of trauma psychiatry, there was plenty of really hairy stuff that I was In regular contact with. I started thinking about it being similar to intentionally exposing myself to either intentionally taking in a low dose poison, right With its emotionally toxifying impact, or intentionally exposing myself to radiation. And what are the strategies Like? How do I monitor how it's landing on me so that I know when to stop?

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 37:55

Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of parallels for me in engaging in anti-oppression work, because that's similar to trauma, bringing us into close encounter with how unsafe and oppressive, harmful, violent, horrific the world is, yeah, horrific horrific, yeah, for certain people, including people who might share my identities, people who might not, and as human beings with the capacity for empathy, how do we structure our engagement and what strategies can be integrated into our lives so that we can sustain the work to work against the oppression, do the work that's so important to us without, as you say, burning out, flaming out and having to stop?

Dr. Haley Sparks: 38:42

Okay, well, one I want before I get into that. Really brilliant and, I would say, paramount question. I want to go back to the emphasis on empathy. Can you help me better understand? Are you saying, with folks who have the capacity for empathy that can contribute to the burnout, or the empathy has the potential to do something else? Can you?

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 39:12

So where that statement came from was my nerdy historian had on now. Yes, in World War II, us military psychiatrists made a realization there was one population that was immune to battle fatigue, what they were calling then battle fatigue People, whom they labeled as psychopaths, people who did not have the capacity for empathy. So the capacity to be both be traumatized and also, especially where vicarious traumatization is, like the trauma that comes from witnessing that is a condition of just being a human being with the capacity to feel yeah, okay, right, yes.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 39:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do a training at UCLA on empathy. I call it emphasis on empathy and I always try to make it apparent. You know why am I you know, the director of equity, diversity, inclusion doing this training? I reference research that shows that, and I use a ladder as an example. There are countless identity ladders, if you will, and your various identities will place you on a certain location on the ladder.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 40:23

So, let's say I have a ladder of physical ability or disability ladder. Because I'm an able-bodied person, I am at the top of that ladder. I have privilege on that specific ladder. There's research to show that depending on your various identities and therefore power you hold in those various realms, the less in practice you are with empathizing. Because I'm at the top of this specific ladder, I'm not used to looking up at other folks on the ladder and seeing their experiences that are different from my own and perspective taking and considering what it's like for that, because I'm at the top of my ladder, I'm not seeing anybody else, so only my perspective is in my purview. So I'm out of practice. Because, let's be real, empathy is a skill that we can grow in and improve in. But if I'm out of practice, I'm not as quote unquote good at it because I'm not as skilled at it Versus, you know, like I said, a black woman. You know, on the ladder of race, I am lower down on the ladder, so I'm more used to looking up the ladder as I'm climbing, seeing other folks who don't have my specific racial identity, and I am perspective taking. What is it like? I'm used to seeing their perspective more and their experience more. So I am more in practice with that. So I am quote unquote better at empathizing. So there's research to show that essentially, the more power, social power, privilege identities you have, the more out of practice or less likely you are to empathize. It does.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 42:06

When I always say this to people doesn't mean you're a bad person and that does mean that now that you're aware of it, I believe you now have a responsibility to get in practice. Now I am aware of it, let me get in practice. Let me figure out what areas do I have privilege identities Like I said, there are countless of them and let me practice empathizing more. Let me practice perspective taking more. That's a side note. I think about that all the time, with empathy on the other side of that coin. I love that you brought up empathy when it comes to potentially burning out because I'll cry. I think of myself as an empathetic person and it can be tiring at times. You know I'll see strangers. You know I'm crying because thinking about their potential experience, you know I can't and I don't know why I can't handle it, and that can absolutely contribute. It's a beautiful thing. Like I said, I do a literal whole training on empathy alone. I think it's a hugely important skill when it comes to moving our societies forward, and it does absolutely have the potential to chip away at your energy levels if you're not careful, if you're not doing some of the practices that we've talked about in terms of filling yourself back up. Okay, so that's a long lead up to the question of what do we do? You know, and of course, this is going to be different for different people.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 43:45

I will give a little taste of one of the kinds of rest. One of the kinds of rest is social rest. When I mean social rest, I mean looking at the various relationships that you have in your life Family, friends, colleagues, coworkers, you know, lovers, whomever they may be and considering okay, which interactions, which type of relationships do I have where I feel like I am more so in giving mode, I am pouring into them, I am having interactions that feel less energizing, more draining. I leave from that conversation, whether it be five seconds or five hours, I'm feeling a little depleted, looking at that and saying, okay, that's what social fatigue is. And then, on the other side, social rest.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 44:39

Like I said, rest does not imply that you have to stop doing something, but let me take a real intentional inventory of my relationships. Which relationships do I feel constantly energized by? Which relationships do I have where they don't want anything from me? They are just there to support me. They're just there to listen, they're just there to hold space for me. Which conversations, you know, after five hours do I still feel energized, or maybe even more energized than I did when we started talking? That's what social rest is. How can I fill myself back up? That's when I've been trying to practice very intentionally, especially, I would say, the last couple months, that intentional inventory. Okay, who can I speak to? Who I know is just there to hold space for me, who doesn't want anything from me, who doesn't expect anything from me, who can pour into me in a way that's not depleting from them, because that's not going to make me feel good. You know, that's an example.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 45:45

I can give an example of physical rest. I think often, oftentimes the most common one, people think of the sleeping, which fine. But you know, there is more active physical rest, like stretching. Now, physical rest is not like strenuous activity, that's more so the opposite. But stretching, yoga, just sitting in a cup, just sitting in a comfortable position, that can be physical rest for you. You're really trying to again pour back into yourself physically. What that looks like for different people will absolutely mean different things. And lastly, I will say one really good indicator for me when it comes to rest has been joy. When I feel joy, I think that is often connected to what pours back into me and that is intentional resting for me in my spirit, beautiful.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 46:47

Beautiful, thank you. So I was thinking about what you said earlier and I think it may be worth clarifying. I'm using a lay person's definition of empathy, which is just feeling evoked by seeing somebody else suffering, right, and I think that that's different, than there's something different to me from that, than being able to perspective, take somebody whose identity is that I don't share, right.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 47:11

So, in the first instance, I think it's absorbing like really terrible news that impacts people, especially in particular identity groups, whether or not I share those identity groups or not, right, right. And then you're adding an important layer of nuance, which is not that we're going to talk about this, and I think just had too many reminders in the last few years that it is harder for people to empathize in the way that you're talking about with people who are different to them if they don't see them as people yes.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 47:48

The dehumanization yeah. We don't have to get far into that, but yes.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 47:53

I have learned many powerful lessons from the clinicians in my life, whether it's been through writing or through how I've seen them engage in the beautiful and powerful and certainly impactful in many ways for me personally or in terms of what it's led me to think about and do in the world that I would, with this summit, like to offer to people who are deeply, deeply engaged in anti-oppression work and social justice work, because, as you said, if our mentors and the people who came before us gave up, then what would be here for us right now? Right, absolutely. So I'm very excited. The summit is on April 10th and 11th, 2024. People should be seeing notices going out about it very soon and I'm super excited for your workshop.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 48:43

Dr Sparks. Thank you, Dr Hector. I'm very excited myself.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 48:49

You know I love giving workshops and I'm excited because I feel like it is something that I believe very deeply in and, like you said, you know I care about the sustained nature and sustained well-being and sustained joy of folks who are doing this work. I believe it's a right for all of us and I think it's a monumental portion of this work that you know folks have started to talk about, and I think we have a long way to go in terms of continuing to instill that in the work that we do.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 49:30

I am so deeply appreciative of you, hailey. I love being in partnership in terms of thinking and putting on events like this and just talking to you about things that matter so much to us. So thank you so so much for taking the time to do this Of course.

Dr. Haley Sparks: 49:44

Thank you so much for having me. Like I said, this is the type of social rest you know. I feel even more energized having spoken about this with you and exploring ideas. Yeah, I feel energized, I feel good, I feel invigorated in the work. So thank you so much for having me and giving me this opportunity to share and explore with you.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 50:08

Thank you, and so much the same Thank you.

Dr. Leena Akhtar: 50:12

If you don't already get our newsletter and follow us on social media, I've included links in the show notes. Look out for further announcements about Vision's mental health program and the 2024 spring summit. You can also always email programs at Vision's Inc with comments and questions. As I mentioned at the top of the episode, 2024 is Vision's 40th year and we'll be celebrating this milestone with an event that's taking place in Boston on September 27th 2024. Look out for details about that as well. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.