Back2Basics - Episode 17: How to find the right mentor.

Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they discuss finding the right mentor. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.

Co-Hosts Background:
 
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University.  He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville.  A consulting and business coaching company.  Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade.  He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems.  After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances.  Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership.  He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections.  Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy.  At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department.  He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
  
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Hello everybody, Welcome back to Back to Basics. I am Mauro Hussini and I'm here with Mr George. Welcome back, George, to the podcast. How are you doing, buddy?

Speaker 2: 0:16

Say good stuff, mauro. It's a rainy day out here once again, and we'll be here podcasting Lots of fun.

Speaker 1: 0:26

Same here, man, same here. How's work going? You're doing good.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Works super busy, just the way I like it it's one of those things. That's true. It makes the day go by, and I like getting things done, and sitting down and just staring at walls isn't fun for me, so I like to get going All right, buddy.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Glad to hear that. George, what do you say? Last week, I think we were talking about coaching versus mentoring.

Speaker 1: 0:56

And I know you have a lot of experience mentoring people. I don't know you had mentors in your past, early on in your career. What do you say we talk about? Let's focus on mentoring today and finding the right mentor. What do you do? How do you find the right mentor? So what I'm going to do is I'm going to give it to you. Actually, why don't you tell us, speak your mind. What do you think are the do's and don'ts, or what should we do when we're trying to pick a mentor?

Speaker 2: 1:32

So, look, you know, let's just kind of skinny it down a little bit. More than that. Let's try to define, you know, the scenario we're in, right? So you know, I believe you can find mentors in your life. You know, outside business, right? So I think that some of the things we're going to talk about today in an organization even translates into outside your organization, right?

Speaker 2: 2:00

So, like, for instance, mo, I consider you even though we don't call it mentoring, you know I consider you to be one of my mentors, right? Oftentimes I call you up for advice. I, you know, try to give you the scenario. I ask you what should I do about it? And I respect your opinion, I respect what you've done with your life and I know that, even though we're also friends, you're not afraid to tell me the truth or call me out in a situation. It's a hey, george, you know you might be right about this, but look at what you did. And I appreciate that.

Speaker 2: 2:45

And I want to first start out with that sort of relationship.

Speaker 2: 2:51

You know, usually when you pick out mentors, you want somebody that maybe not exactly the same worldview as you but maybe has a similar worldview to you. So, you know, in business, you know, if you're somebody that is not super aggressive, let's say, and you know you want to, just, you know, be happy in your job and grow just within your job, you know you don't want to pair up with a mentor who is maybe super aggressive or super aggressive and flashy, right, and I'm not saying it's not helpful to pick somebody that has a skill or something that you don't have, but you want somebody that pairs with you well, that you know, when you're talking about your wanton life, you know is going to understand at least where you're coming from. So I say that you know, like a mentor that has that same kind of value and definition of success, right? So I'll give you an example Some people in business, they're interested in climbing a ladder and making a lot of money very fast. If that appeals to you, right, and that's the way you want to move up, then you know, then that's the type of mentor you want somebody who's a fast mover.

Speaker 2: 4:22

Or maybe there's other mentors that are just really good at some skill or some job, but they're not super aggressive, but they want to show value, they want to do things, and it's not necessarily a right or wrong, but you need to have some sort of commonplace of values. What do you think about that Mal?

Speaker 1: 4:43

No, I. Usually this is a fully loaded answer in a good way and, excuse me, I want to start off. I mean, I'm flattered. I always tell you that I'm flattered and honored that you consider me a mentor and you know the feeling is mutual and from what you were talking about, I was going to ask you a question, but I actually answered it for myself and I'll give you, I'll tell you what it is. I was thinking I was going to ask you, george, based upon what you're saying, as far as interest and so on, do you pick a mentor that shares your same type of personality or not?

Speaker 1: 5:19

And regardless of what your answer was going to be, I actually think that the answer is no, not necessarily, because when I think about I don't know if you remember, george, a couple of it was more than a decade ago when I had a consulting gig and you are helping me, but I know with helping me find people to partner with with the RP and I know you couldn't, because of your work obligations, be a part of it with me, but you helped me, put me and I came back to you with a lot of questions as far as who I should reach out to, what I should do, what my plan should be. And from your answers to me, I realized that sometimes I don't want to say impulsive, but I'm quick in my decisions and you're more calculating and more cautious and more slow. So I realized that that differing aspect in our personalities is actually a good thing, that when I come to you for mentorship or for advice, the fact that you don't share my type of decision making speed or process is actually something I look for, like when I'm going to make a decision, to do something, I pick up the phone to call you, knowing that your personality is more cautious, more slow in making decisions than I am. So, regardless of the actual topic that we're talking about your background, your personality compliments, fits in well with what I'm looking to do. Does that make sense? You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 6:52

So I think my takeaway is that when you're looking for a mentor or somebody that you're seeking advice or help from, don't always try to find somebody that's exactly like you personality wise. It's good to find somebody that's you know. If we're talking about the disk, somebody that's maybe more of a C. If you're more of an I, somebody that's more compliant, more calculating. If you are, somebody that's more outgoing and more quick in your decision making.

Speaker 2: 7:24

I completely agree with that and I think you know what happens is you end up being a stronger team for that reason, right.

Speaker 2: 7:35

But what I saw, I think what we have, is an interesting combo where, you know, you and I have a very similar worldview in terms of, like, our values, right, and how we do hierarchy, but how our brains naturally operate or are a bit different, and what I think happens is we have very interesting conversations because you know intuitively, you move forward faster than I do.

Speaker 2: 8:08

So I, you know I don't I question things that you might not question invites first. So it makes for a better conversation and an honest conversation where we're comfortable enough with each other, where we're not offended by somebody saying I don't agree with you, that you know that's. I don't need to be self validated in that, neither do you, because we know that it's done in a caring way, right, and I think that that's another big aspect for a mentor. You need to have a mentor that is one willing to speak truth to you and understand that's allowed and at the same time, it's trustworthy. You're not going to be able to have a mentor and share aspects of maybe, your emotions, your feelings, your needs, your wants, if you just cannot trust them.

Speaker 2: 9:12

So, of course, in a business setting you know you get to understand that there are some limits on where you want to draw that line with trust. But what I'm saying is if you can't have mutual trust and respect with your mentor, that is a big problem and it's not going to be a good, healthy mentoring relationship.

Speaker 1: 9:42

And to point out something else that you said a few minutes ago, just because I want to point out. I want to say it again because I think it's important. You cannot go into this mental relationship if you are going to be intimidated by the critique or negative like if they're going to give you any negative feedback or give you any advice. You cannot be intimidated or upset by it. You have to accept it. You have to be flexible, open-minded to the feedback that you're going to get. So there, just like I said, there is that sense of trust that this person is looking at for me. They are looking to help me. Having a mentor is not a part of oh, I have a mentor, that I'm going to be fine. No, it's actually listening to what that mentor tells you, accepting the feedback that they give you. Just like, again, our example when I was going into the consulting and he would come and tell me no more, you can't do this yet.

Speaker 1: 10:38

Wait on this meeting. Go over this for it, especially the technical aspects. Yes, you have to. If this is what you're looking for from a mentor, then take it. It can't be a partial, half and half thing, right? If you are looking for that advice. Take the advice and listen to it. Now can we move to something else, george, or do you have anything else to say about this?

Speaker 2: 11:02

Oh, of course please.

Speaker 1: 11:05

Okay, so I have a project I'm working on. I have something specific that I'm working on and I get a mentor to help me with it. What are the qualifications, the quality, like you know? What are the criteria? What is it that I look for? What are some of the things more now we're talking about, instead of like more holistic but now more specific? Right, so I'm working on a project that is specific and I need to help with it. I want a mentor to help me, to guide me through it. What are the checks that I go through, the selective criteria to pick that mentor? What do you think I should look for?

Speaker 2: 11:57

So let me just I'll get to answering that, but let me set things up a little bit more right.

Speaker 2: 12:06

So I believe when you're in an organization, especially larger corporate organizations, you should see yourself going at work every day, with every interaction you have, as being some sort of interview. You need to understand how to present yourself and talk about yourself in a certain way that you're consistent, because that becomes a dominant. Even if you go and say post for a job or interview for a job, you can't change your personality all of a sudden. You know people will know who you are internally. In the same context, you should be constantly interviewing and thinking about people in your organization that in terms of, hey, what skills do they have that they could help me out with one day? You know how do they fit into my personal network? So on some sense, you should be always seeking out in an interview sense people to be your allies, people to be in your personal network and people to be potential mentors. So let's say we're in a scenario like you said, right.

Speaker 2: 13:30

So, ideally speaking, you're assigned, let's say, a new project. You realize that this is something that you haven't done before and it's critically important that you find a mentor right. So, ideally speaking, you've already been in the organization, you've already met some people. You may already have a few candidates in your head of folks that might be able to mentor you through it. So let me just go through some of that criteria. I would think one you want somebody that you can get along with right, but again, aligns with your personality on some level. I would also critically I would say critically important is someone who's been through a project like that before, who has experienced, who's walked on that road. So I would think that that's another criteria.

Speaker 2: 14:30

I would say another criteria is somebody that's interested, unbiasedly, actually interested in your success and we can get to what I mean by that in a minute. But you want somebody that's interested in your project success and even in your personal success and that's what I'm saying. And I would say finally, in addition to the trustworthiness and speak truth to you and things like that but actually has time to sit down and mentor you. Even the best mentors if they're bogged down and they don't have time, then they should try to be honest with you and tell you that fact. But you want somebody that you can have access to and have those conversations. You smell good having a mentor if you and or they don't have time to actually do the.

Speaker 1: 15:29

You said something at the beginning of your answer and I know what you mean, but I want you to clarify it. Talk about it more, especially for listeners that are just starting their careers in corporate. You said that you should go through your day in your interaction as if you're always being interviewed. I agree, but elaborate on it. What do you mean more? Explain it more for the new entrance into the corporate world. What do you mean by it?

Speaker 2: 16:02

Yeah. So during an interview, you're really trying to sell your best self to that organization and hopefully at the same time in the interview, you're also trying to figure out if this organization fits for you. Right, If it fits for you, and what are the types of things that you could do in that organization that would work for you. So I think every day when you go to work, it's not right if you decide there's an like I'll just say it for me. It would not be right if there's an interview, George, where I show my best off, and then there's my everyday George, which is just mediocre, right. I'm not interacting with people with a good attitude. I'm not putting myself out there like I said I would during the interview To me.

Speaker 2: 16:57

Now, instead of just interviewing, I need to live out who I said I was during the interview and hopefully I wasn't exaggerating or pushing something beyond the truth during the interview. You can't expect to treat somebody badly one day at work and then get their help the next day. So you really have to be careful with how you brand yourself, how you hold your relationships, and I actually the reason why I brought that up is that bleeds over into mentoring. A bit right? How do you carry yourself? Who are you? Do you have integrity? Are you living out your values? And I believe that's something that you want to be as a mentee, and that's the type of person you want as a mentor.

Speaker 1: 17:51

Yes, and to add on to what you just said, I agree with everything you said, and not to take it in a different direction, but just one quick comment because, also, when you do approach every interaction to some extent as if it's an interview, you're building your network. People are getting to know you, know your brand, know who you are. You never know if 10, 15 years down the road, a year down the road, one of those people might have an opportunity. They need somebody outside of the company, another career path, something else. Right, you're always marketing yourself, letting people know who you are, what qualities you have.

Speaker 1: 18:31

So that's just a little piece I wanted to add on to what you said because I agree. I agree with you with the fact that you should always practice what you preach and by preaching I mean what you said in an interview practice it in your everyday career life. So, well said, I agree with you. There's one point we talked about before and we had disagreed on, and it's related to mentoring. I'm going to bring it up again. I'm going to pose it as a question Do you think I'm looking for a mentor? Should I pick, or should I not pick, someone that's in my career path, or somebody that's my boss's boss's boss, or my boss, or like? Let's keep this one down to a very simple example Can I take my boss as my mentor?

Speaker 2: 19:26

So my answer is yes, you can. Yes, you can, but I believe that your direct supervisor should naturally be some provide some mentoring for you anyway as your supervisor. But I would say that the best mentors that you want to find are people that are knowledgeable about your scenario in some aspect but are outside of your current hiring chain, and let me just explain why I feel that way. A little bit more it gets to the unbiased opinion about you. So if you do extraordinarily well, let's say you are a superstar, a diamond in the rough, and all that mentor needed to do is dust off a little coal off of you and you are that superstar diamond. There are times and I've seen this that now your supervisor is actually scared of you because you're going to take their job.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Okay. So so what you know, so what I'm saying is you want people that are mentors that don't have a biased interest in you either getting promoted or not getting promoted. That's also why sometimes it's difficult having a mentor in your department where you may be competing at some point for promotion, right, and so, for instance, you know, let's say, I found a mentor on that project. It's somebody in my department, it's somebody that I'm going to be in competition for a promotion at some point. That person may come in and, instead of helping me do well and get the credit, they show how they were the ones that helped me get there. Yeah Right, and I'm just pointing out to avoid those scenarios, you ideally want someone who's somewhat detached from the scenario so they can unbiasedly give you good feedback.

Speaker 1: 21:47

I agree the one point one takeaway I will mention that I try to avoid when I am working is if I am a manager and my boss is a senior manager and the only next step I can take is to be a senior manager, I think, right there, that is not a good job to take. Right, like, I always think it's better to have a couple of pay grades between you and your manager so that, yes, your manager, you know there will be no way in heck that you are going to get promoted unless your manager moves to another job or you go somewhere else as a senior manager. But that lateral move upwards it's not going to happen with that guy there. So, yes, I agree with you, and that's one of the negativities is that, yeah, that person can be ever your mentor because there is not going to make you equal to him or her. But, george, knowing that we are human, humans are emotional, humans like compliments, like praise, some humans like to be you know they are ego to be fed Don't you think it's a diplomatic or good strategic move that you go to your boss, especially if it's the kind of person that likes to praise, likes the acknowledgement, and tell them I want you to be my mentor.

Speaker 1: 23:01

I mean, there is nothing that says you look up to a person or you trust their expertise and knowledge more than asking them to be your guide. So don't you think there are some cases where, in that situation, you are an analyst and your manager is a director there is a comfort zone between both of you? Do you think in that case it would be good to reach out to that manager of yours to be your mentor? Or still not a good idea?

Speaker 2: 23:37

Well, I think it depends. I think it could be a good choice, but again, I think there is a lot of dependence. If you are going to that person to ask them as a mentor, to flatter them or to try to manipulate the situation, that all over the place might have some warning signs to me about your intentions and why, and also the ability of this person to speak truth into your life might be hampered because of that scenario. But I would think if genuinely you see somebody, maybe a couple, rungs up in the organization that just happens to be in your direct line and has skills and they line up in every other way and they have time for you, then I think it could be a very good thing, a very positive thing.

Speaker 2: 24:37

But I think it really depends on the scenario of how it is approached.

Speaker 1: 24:43

And that's kind of what I meant. I did a minute that yours, and it's good that you mentioned it so that I can clarify. I did not mean that your sole purpose would be that you're looking to kiss up to them or to flatter them, but I meant more that you know what they are good at, what they do, and this will be an added piece that if you do it, they might come across as well that you're appreciating their knowledge and expertise. But it's a valid point that you mentioned. That should not be the reason. Now here's another question what if the mentor is your boss's boss's boss? You think that should be even as qualified as they are? Do you think we should not approach that individual just because it may be threatening to your manager, or would you think that it's still something worth considering?

Speaker 2: 25:33

Yeah, I still think this is either a thing that you have to tread carefully. Full disclosure I had a mentor that was three rungs up ahead of me and in my organization, so it can work. It's great. Most of the issues and things that I spoke to that person about, who was an excellent mentor, had more to do with my perception of what was going on in the organization and how to better align, and not with certain specific skills like how do I get myself promoted, because I wanted a free and fair discourse. So I set the boundaries of what that meant, because obviously he could say, okay, I'll tell you exactly what I'm looking for personally to get promoted and then I just go do them. That's more of what a supervisor would do and then I'd be going around my supervisor. So I kept it professional and I kept it on certain topics that just made a lot of sense that I thought this gentleman was very good at, which was organizational perception and how to position and how to understand, how to navigate some of your organization.

Speaker 1: 27:04

Did you let your manager know that you have the mentor A and B, or did you even let him know, before you approached that mentor, that you were going to do this?

Speaker 2: 27:16

So kind of an odd scenario. This person was my mentor and there was a slight reorg that I got into a new supervisor and that supervisor happened to work like three runs down from my mentor. So I did let them know. I said, by the way, this person's been my mentor for a little while. There was a reorg. I want to keep them as a mentor. This is the nature of the relationship. I hope he felt comfortable and he was a very mature manager and did not have an issue with it.

Speaker 1: 27:52

Yeah, because I do think I mean we can wrap up with this point. I do think if, in that scenario, if you do reach out to somebody that's above your direct manager, that you should let your manager know about it, just out of respect and to avoid any future complications or misunderstandings that may arise. Perfect, anything else you want? To add George Before we wrap up.

Speaker 2: 28:15

Yeah, just one more thing I just want to put out there. I mean, we've been talking about scenarios where you're seeking out individuals on your own. I just want to point out that you can also ask your supervisor. You can ask senior people in the organization and say, hey, I'm looking for mentorship, I want to get better. Who would you recommend? And you can do that. So some organizations will have mentoring programs. So within my outside of Montclair, I work full time. I signed up as part of their mentoring program and I've listed my skills and my resume to be picked as a mentor. So I do think that there's lots of scenarios where you can have then get help in being matched up appropriately.

Speaker 1: 29:13

Perfect, good information, george. I appreciate you saying that, ending with that, so that people again, especially people that are new into the corporate life, keep these things in mind, because I do think they're very, very helpful and things that could help act as a catalyst for someone in their career. Anything else.

Speaker 2: 29:36

That's good. It's a great conversation we've had.

Speaker 1: 29:40

No, man, thank you. Thank you for sharing all this information, and I think this was a good second discussion after what we talked about in the last podcast. So thanks a lot, george. Thank you again, man. Thanks for joining and I'll give it back to you.

Speaker 2: 29:58

Always a pleasure, mo, so we're going to end this podcast by saying thank you all for listening to this episode of Back to Basics on the Business Edge, brought to you by Feliciano School of Business at Montclair State University. We hope you enjoy this podcast and welcome any feedback you have for us, including suggestions for future topics.

Speaker 1: 30:20

Thank you, george again, thank you everybody for listening and we will see you next time on the Back to Basics podcast.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Take care everyone. See you next time, Bye.