Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they discuss what your body language says about you. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they discuss what your body language says about you. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
Speaker 1:
Hello everybody, welcome back to Back to Basics. I am Moe Hussini and I am here with my dear friend, george Elias. Welcome, george, to the podcast. As always, how are you doing, buddy? How are you Doing great.
Speaker 2:
Moe, I really enjoy doing these podcasts with you. Let me just start out by saying that I just when you say something. I just noticed our last podcast had been when it's raining outside. So I think there's a pattern.
Speaker 1:
Is it raining, though? Because I'm in my office, I haven't even looked outside. My curtains are drawn. Is it raining? I've been here for like five hours.
Speaker 2:
It's raining for me.
Speaker 1:
That's spooky. It's almost Halloween too, so now that's interesting. I didn't even notice. Who knows, maybe next time it'll be snowing the way the weather is going Like crazy weather, I know, I know. Tell me, what do you want to talk about today? What's on your mind?
Speaker 2:
You know, moe, I've been really thinking about body language recently and I thought that that would be an interesting topic for us. Have you ever noticed that when somebody walks into a room or when you're first introduced to somebody that you haven't met before, you can immediately figure out if that's somebody that you like or dislike, or you feel like they're a good person to do business? Have you ever had that sort of sometimes you call it like intuition or just like an instant feeling about somebody? Does that happen to you?
Speaker 1:
Interesting you know what? Yeah, no, no, it has. It has happened, I think. Let me put it to you this way, George yes, it happens. I think as I have progressed through my career, I've been able to maybe harness it or control it or not let it impact my decision more, but absolutely I think it's there. Yes, I think it happens. Why do you feel it too? Does it happen to you?
Speaker 2:
I've actually noticed it quite a bit and I agree that I've noticed it more as I've gotten along in my career and I try not to pass a final judgment. I try to slow down with that sort of what do we call it intuition and try to figure out more about the person than just the way they look or they present themselves. I think in the business world, especially when you're thinking about working with customers not all customers are like that and it's sort of a scary thing to think that your customers, or the people that you want to do business with you, are going to judge you so quickly, perhaps even before you start to speak, or present and it makes me think of two things.
Speaker 1:
But even it's more critical when it happens in an interview process and I think we talked about it briefly many episodes ago when it creates this kind of like anchoring effect where I shake your hands and the second I see you and I meet you. I've developed this kind of like label that I'm going to label you with and then everything that happens afterwards, afterwards, it's kind of like just a confirmation to how I feel, no matter how good you actually turn out to be or how polite or how diplomatic, that's it. I came up with this conclusion in my mind that no matter what you do, it just anchors it more and more in my mind.
Speaker 2:
You know what I mean. You know it's funny that you bring in confirmation bias, but there's a lot of truth to that. But once you've formed your opinion and I think it's interesting that you brought it to even a handshake, which is, I think, a further evolution of body language, which includes you know, hopefully positive touch right, you know you have a nice, warm, firm handshake. Hopefully you're looking the person in the eye, smiling, you're dressed for the interview, you look presentable, You're smiling, you have a pleasant smile on.
Speaker 2:
All those sorts of actions can help somebody form a positive view of you, then from then on you know things that you say. If you help them with their confirmation bias, in a sense you're on a really good track for that interview, aren't you?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get your point 100%. You know what? Not to this. Not to open this up to a whole other discussion that could take hours and hours and hours. But back to the handshake. What if you don't even want to shake someone's hand? What if your culture, your religion, your background, your upbringing, you know you're in a country where opposite genders do not shake hands? And my point is, without even answering it, is that we should really kind of look at the combination of the cues all together, right, like it's a combination of things the culture, the background of the individual. Sometimes what we see has a much, much deeper meaning or unseen I don't know what's the word I'm looking for now but has like an underlying. You know, really, actors that could factor into how that person is interacting with you. So I think, yes, what we see, the handshaking, the hugging, the smiling, the eye contact, that's what we see. But there could be many triggers behind the scenes that lead to what it is that we see from the individual. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I agree with you. It's almost difficult to talk about body language and these sort of triggers without bringing in gender and bias feelings about that, or differences in genders in the way that people tend to interact, or differences in cultures and bias in the way people think about it. I mean, I think back to the first time I went to Shakespeare with Hand in a business type setting and she didn't raise her hand to shake back and I remember the feeling of, on my hand part, a feeling of awkwardness at first, until she looked right at me and said I'm sorry, I don't shake hands for religious reasons.
Speaker 2:
And that actually turned around. It was her demeanor and the way she said it for me defused the situation with the explanation, where I no longer felt awkward, that it was about me for some reason and it was just.
Speaker 2:
it is what it is and for me it was an educational piece and understanding her point of view and where she was, and for me it was like, oh, I just learned something about her. She was able to diffuse and help the situation in a very calm, nice manner. She was still looking pleasant, not, you know, disgusted or something like that.
Speaker 2:
And that really actually helped, informing a very me having a very positive viewpoint of her, and we ended up actually working together in a very positive sense. So I don't think that all because somebody doesn't shake hands or doesn't do something for cultural reasons, that necessarily excludes them from doing business very, very effectively.
Speaker 1:
Yes, and I think one. I agree 100%, and I think one of the takeaways from our podcast today, or whenever we end this discussion after one or many podcasts, one of the takeaways that I'll bring up from now is we shouldn't be quick to judge. We shouldn't be quick to label somebody as nice guy, bad guy, hostile guy, right, we should give the benefit of the doubt to all those things that we've mentioned in the last couple of minutes, kind of like what you went through, I went through it and you know what. You were fortunate that you were with somebody that's outgoing and confident enough to explain the reason. What if she was an introvert? Or what if it was like such a quick situation where she didn't get a chance to explain? That would have been it. You know what? You would have labeled her as an unfriendly, whatever it is that came through your mind.
Speaker 1:
I will not speak for you, but whatever thoughts that would have come through your mind, there's your anchor, right? That would have been it. So if you don't have anything else to comment, I'm gonna give it back to you. But why don't you either comment on what I said or let's start with one. Let's look at another attribute eye contact. You wanna start with that. You know like let's take it from the handshake, let's work our way into another one. What do you think about eye contact?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so let me just comment on the handshake and the culture aspect. I think, unfortunately and I'm almost embarrassed to say it, but unfortunately if she wasn't so outgoing and maybe left it as awkward, unfortunately I may not have had such a positive viewpoint of her and maybe there's a lesson in there, and I hate to put the burden on somebody that is in a culture where there's handshakes or something. I hate to put the burden on them, but maybe if they know that they're in a culture where there's things they can't respond in the same way that I guess how should I say? Almost like tradition or something where people traditionally shake hands in business, they should somehow rehearse or have something to say like oh, I don't shake hands for religious reasons, and most people, most people are going to be perfectly fine with that, just like she did with me, and I think that it's a growth experience for everybody, but maybe somebody should, you know, have something to say about it, right?
Speaker 2:
You know, I can't shake hands, you know, and just know that it's okay to see that and, frankly, if the person is not okay with that, that's somebody you don't want to do business with anyway. No, I agree.
Speaker 1:
If someone's not tolerant enough to you or adaptable enough to other points of view, I agree, I agree so anything else around this point I don't want to bring eyes, but eyes are tremendously important, tremendously important and they're important for business.
Speaker 2:
They're actually very important If you're interested in dating or courting somebody. The way you look, whether you look at them in their eyes or not, you know this is a. You know we're all human beings, but you know there's an emotional, chemical reaction inside people when they're looked at it in a pleasant way. Now, you know, let's be, let's all be careful with the eyes, because you know you can look at, you know, let's say, somebody that you're affection about or want to date in some way, and you're looking at them. You know those eyes and how it's taken to be taken very affectionately and draw that person in. But if the person doesn't have good feelings about you, it can also be kind of creepy.
Speaker 2:
So, you know, I think that there's a proper use of eyes. Don't overdo it. If you're not getting the right reaction, you know, don't think that you can have, we can all just stare, just stare in contest until you're going to win it, because that's that's not what it is. But you know, when somebody is talking to you and they make good, positive eye contact, it feels good. They're paying attention to you, they're interested in you. You know this. This is one of the reasons why I've encouraged people to not do phone or Zoom interviews when being in person is is an option.
Speaker 2:
And if you're going to do a Zoom if you're going to do Zoom for business, do things that as much as possible to look in the camera. Have your camera on, look in the camera, try to look at the person when they're talking, because when you, when you look distracted and it's harder over Zoom, when you look distracted, you're looking away People don't make the same connection and ultimately that does that really does affect your, your business and your ability to move on to further stages in the interview process.
Speaker 1:
So let me pose it to you as a question Sustained eye contact You're talking to somebody and they have sustained eye contact with you. What does that signify to you?
Speaker 2:
What would that tell?
Speaker 1:
you, yeah, yeah, what? What is it to you?
Speaker 2:
It, it. To me, it means that they're interested in me, they're, they're engaged, they're they're listening, they, they, they find me pleasant in some way. It makes a huge difference, let me, let me just explain something that I've, that I've observed, and you tell me if you, if you've, observed this right. Let's say there's a child, a small child you know, I will call him little Jimmy maybe three or four years old, right Walks into the room with a bunch of adults. Okay, yes.
Speaker 2:
One of the young ladies notices this this child walking through with adults. What does she do? She's a typical thing that a young woman would do. She will get down on that child's level. Look him in the eyes, Right, Look in the eyes and, with a very pleasant voice, oh, Jimmy, look at what you're doing. Oh, you're here and she she's going to be making direct eye contact right into Jimmy and she's going to be, you know, carrying him with a hug and bringing him back to the room for him to play right or or whatever it's next.
Speaker 1:
Yes, okay, yes.
Speaker 2:
And, and you know I hate to say it, but we're all, we all have that little kid in us still, even as adults, we all have that, that little kid in us and we all want people to get onto our level, to make eye contact to, to talk pleasantly, embrace us, even if it's not physical, but embrace us in the conversation or, you know, in the presence, and that makes us feel good, right.
Speaker 2:
And I'm just bringing that up because you know that's how we grew up, you know, as children being treated and that's the way we even want to be treated as adults. And in the business world there's, you know, appropriateness around that there's an appropriate way of being greeted, of being looked at and being talked to, and when you're talked in that appropriate, you know, appropriately loving way, you can't help but respond. Little Jimmy felt good in that moment, Right.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
And and little Mo wants to feel good inside when, when coming in doing business, and so does little.
Speaker 1:
George, here no I agree with you, yes, and I think I know I can think of some people that I have known that on a social and professional level. Oh, how to give that? You know it's a mix of affection, interest, respect, attention. When they talk to somebody, you can see the sincerity in their eye. It reflects that affection, the interest you know. They make you feel you're important, they make you feel valued.
Speaker 1:
I think it's a talent that some people are born with or that they acquire, or it's part of their personality that they do bring out or they do seek that little Jimmy. And then the person they're talking to, and they know how to feed it, they know how to make a connection through it right, they know how to connect with that person through that approach that you're talking about. I agree, I think if we all have that in us and some people know how to bring it out and know how to deal and communicate with it, connect with it on many different levels depending on the nature of the interaction, now, no, go ahead. What were you going to?
Speaker 2:
say you know I, you know you said something, and I'll just point out that I sort of disagree a little bit, only that you said that it's like they're born with it, and I do think some people are much, are naturally outgoing and have the ability to do it.
Speaker 2:
But I also believe that this level of interaction is trainable and I believe that for somebody who's, let's say, is just not good at making eye contact, I think with working with them and teaching them how to userize and to practice, you know, talk to themselves in the mirror, look at the. Look at themselves in the mirror. When you're talking hey, if you're having a problem talking to somebody, look in the eye. You know. Look at their forehead, look between their eyes. You know, start getting, start getting that, I think. I think there's it's trainable, I think, telling somebody to use their eyes like they're sticky eyes. So when you look at somebody, you know, look at them like they're a little sticky and when you have to look away, look away almost like you're reluctant to look away, but you have to, right.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
People pick. You know when they're told and you're trained, you can actually break down the way you use your eyes. It you know, even if you're not good. I think it's trainable. So I the reason why I bring this up is for the listeners. I don't want them to feel like, if they're just not good at it, there's nothing they can do. There's a lot that you can do and the more you train, the more you work at it, the better you get at it.
Speaker 1:
I get your point. It's a valid point. The reason I said it the way I said it is because I believe myself, anybody around me or like us in general, our tendencies that we talked about, I think, in one of our first episodes, or what makes us, is part hereditary, part through our experience after we cross, maybe like the 18 year old age, and part of it is through our role model, like how we see people behave and act. But I do believe that everything you said is correct. But I do believe it's kind of like what I think about when you say what you just said.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely Everybody should try to train and improve and explore and discover new things in them. But I believe that to some extent it's going to kind of be an introvert. Let me take and teach you to be good at public speaking. You know there's some things, yes, where we can learn and train and practice. Some we cannot. But your point is valid that there are in between. You know, even if I know that I'm really really uncomfortable dealing with people I'm really bad at even shaking hands or connecting, making eye contact I should, like you said, train, try to practice and try to apply it to some extent, right. So I agree that yes, no matter what, we should give it a try and try to learn to do it.
Speaker 2:
I mean, I guess I feel as though I agree with you, you know with the, you know there's like a there's a nature aspect of it, and you know people having them, whether they're introvert or extroverts. But I think even with that there's ways of becoming better and trainable, right? I think that?
Speaker 2:
you know, and that's where I'm at, and I know that I was fortunate with with, for instance, my father, who was a businessman, so I you know, he brought me around at a very young age where he was doing business, so I got to see him and emulate him and, you know, learn about that. And I can also tell you that I used to be part of a of a group in high school that actually competed doing things like interviews, and I and I was coached in in my teams on, you know, posture and eye contact and what to do with your hands and smiling and things like this and all these things make a huge difference.
Speaker 1:
Some people do it naturally Other people have to be told.
Speaker 2:
Yes, you know. And just one last thing that that I'll say about it. You know, because you're talking about posture and things, I know that the military takes in and I know we've talked about military a lot. They taken people that are 17, 18 years old and they teach them how to stand up straight. You know how to look, how to, how to, how to look forward, how to articulate and talk, and you know you can instantly see somebody that's had that military type training in how to present and I, because I see it all the time, you know I'm like, oh, that person's the military of the way they stand.
Speaker 2:
You know, you're 17, 18 years old, you're still moldable, you're still able to learn these things, and maybe you you won't be that natural best at them, but you can learn enough where you can turn it on and make it work for you.
Speaker 1:
I agree, I agree, and I mean, since you did, I remember back God. When was it? Maybe 10, 11 years ago? I remember me I went by your dad's work. I remember who took me out for lunch with him and a bunch of his colleagues. Remember when he was like helping me learn some things and like that new project I was working on with steel and manufacturing and stuff.
Speaker 2:
And I remember he took me out for lunch, remember?
Speaker 1:
And yeah, we were sitting about seven of us and he was the the heart of the discussion and I see well, you know what you're talking about now. He was the one connecting everybody with everybody, starting the conversations, creating that lively atmosphere, and there were other guys sitting there that they needed that nudge and that push, that push which, back to your point, there are people that are natural at it and some people that are uncomfortable with it. There are some people that don't like it, but, no matter what, it is part of our daily lives and that we should practice it and train on it to some extent, as much as we can. Agreed Um the rest of the face, all right, forget the eyes. Facial expressions what, what about facial expression? Expressive facial expressions? What would they indicate? Oh boy, mom, this is something, yeah.
Speaker 2:
I'm terrible at this because you know me you know me, my face tells people exactly what I'm thinking. There is no hiding, so I know, I know. You know, so I'm happy. If I'm feeling good about something, you can see it on my face, and if I'm not, you can see it on my face. So I know that and I think you know that. People that know me know that.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
So other people are very are very good at managing their facial expression. They're very good at doing it and I think it's an asset in business that, if you allow, Let me interrupt you for a second.
Speaker 1:
Hold on hold on hold on Cause you're saying something I actually before. We would be one and we forget, and I hope I didn't make some trouble. Sorry, but I consider actually the fact that you're facing. I don't remember from the nineties when we would be going at sitting up for druggers or go to the movies in the car and you would have an argument with somebody. I think the fact that you show what you feel is a form of sincerity. It's actually you know, the fact that you're upfront and you're honest about how you feel. You know, you believe you have a point in your mind. You're genuine and honest about it and it's sincere, it's commendable and respectable that you actually express it. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that because actually I always think that that's actually a good thing in you that you don't sugarcoat things. You know what you feel, your opinion about something you say, you're sincere about it, you're respectable, diplomatic, but you voice your opinion, voice your personality.
Speaker 2:
Well, thanks for saying that, Mo, and I really appreciate that. I feel those are a lot of compliments, right yeah?
Speaker 1:
I think.
Speaker 2:
What I mean by that is so, because my faith betrays my feelings so well it just bubbles out of me. I guess what likes and dislikes, and whether I agree or disagree. You can see it all over my face. I'd be the worst poker player in the world, right.
Speaker 1:
Everybody would know what hand I have. That's why I don't think poker.
Speaker 2:
But sometimes in business you need to have a poker face, and that's what I mean. You're right, you're right, and that's what I'm saying. I know I'm not good at it.
Speaker 1:
I agree.
Speaker 2:
Right. If somebody gives me a great offer, the smile is going to be ear to ear. I'm like I just got a great offer. Other people who have a poker face might be able to even negotiate a better deal right.
Speaker 2:
And say, just because of the way they can manage your facial expressions and make the most out of the business for that right. Or sometimes being in a very upsetting situation and exuding calm and even having your facial expressions show that you're calm, even when inside you're freaking out a little bit. People that can do that can lead people through a really difficult situation.
Speaker 1:
So I really think me.
Speaker 2:
I have to make my inside calm. I can't just have my face be calm, I literally have to calm myself down for me to exude calm. I know that about me and I have to manage my feelings more than my face, or maybe other people can manage their face despite their feelings.
Speaker 1:
Interesting. That's a really interesting point. For the sake of time I know we're almost out Remember that point that you just mentioned about controlling the inside to control the outside, versus being able to disconnect both. We should talk about that one more, because I really think it's an interesting point. I think our different personalities may approach that in different ways, so why don't we? Are you okay if we start the next episode? We're going to continue our discussion about body language, facial expressions, but let's bring that point up and start from there. What do you say?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think that's really interesting and I'd like to hear how you feel if there's a cultural aspect to that as well. I'm going to think about it? Because me personally, I think I've noticed, and again, I'm not inside everybody, so I don't know. But I think I've noticed that there are certain cultures that are much better at having an outside presentation versus what their inside is doing when some other cultures.
Speaker 2:
There isn't as much of an emphasis on being able to do that, so I'm curious how you feel about that I'm going to brainstorm on it between now and our next episode, and we'll definitely talk more about it.
Speaker 1:
George, let's do that. Sounds good to me. All right, man. So this was really interesting. I mean, like I said, we're going to take this to the next. Continue the discussion next time when we continue talking about this topic.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I agree, really interesting talking today with you about island language, so anyway. So thank you all for listening to this episode of Back to Basics on the Business Edge, brought to you by Feliciano School of Business at Montclair State University. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and welcome any feedback you have for us, including suggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1:
George, the feeling is mutual, man. I really did enjoy this. We went back down memory lane, brought up some old stories that we've had, but thank you and thank you all for listening and we will see you next time on the Back to Basics podcast.
Speaker 2:
Thanks Mo, thank you, see you next time. Bye, take care.