Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they again discuss what your body language says about you. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they again discuss what your body language says about you. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
Speaker 1:
Hello everybody. I hope everyone is doing well. Welcome back to Back to Basics. I am Maui Hussini and I am here with my dear, dear friend, george Elias. Welcome back, mr George. How?
Speaker 2:
are you doing, doing well, maui? Good to see you. It's a nice sunny day. I've been rainy.
Speaker 1:
I was hoping there wasn't a correlation between our podcast and rainy days.
Speaker 2:
I'm glad the pattern is broken, but it is awfully cold.
Speaker 1:
It started to get cold towards the end of the semester. Here I know the fall slew by the semester. It always does. I have no idea why, but I can't believe we were already in November. I'm talking to the students about finals.
Speaker 1:
I'm talking to the students about finals. You know term papers? Yeah, it's crazy, george. Do you remember? I know last time we were talking about body language and facial expressions and such posture, hands and so on when did we leave off? I know it was an interesting discussion, but we had to end it. Do you remember what was the?
Speaker 2:
last point we were discussing. I don't remember, I don't remember, I don't remember. If I recall the last conversation we had, we were talking about facial expressions and I was relating my own personal experience on how my facial expressions are connected to my emotions and in order for me to control my facial expressions, I in my own personal experience. I just wanted to throw out a question to you that you said you might think about. I asked if there's any cultural aspects to that. You know the strong connection between emotions and facial expressions yes, I remember.
Yeah, and just to throw out another one you know just in terms of you know facial expressions and culture and whether they're totally universal or certain cultures may use them. You know certain expressions differently, things like that.
Speaker 1:
Now I remember Good point what do you? Are you good if we take, like, start from that point? Use that as our starting point today, because I did think about that question over the week. You're good with that? Shall, we do that? So we'll continue from here.
Speaker 1:
Sure, let's go for it. Do you know what I thought about? Yes, I think there is a relationship, to answer your question, between your beliefs, your culture. I don't want to go as far as religion maybe, yes, religion, but let's just, we don't want to open up the conversation too deep or too wide. Let's focus on culture, right? I do strongly believe that there is a relationship between your facial expression and culture, your cultural background. And to give us a point of reference, a starting point, call it whatever you want.
Speaker 1:
I thought about cognitive dissonance, right, and for some of the listeners that don't know what that means, this was a concept theory. They came about in the 50s, I think, 1950s. Simply put, it talks about something consistency that could happen between what we believe, what's in our head and our actions. Meaning, george tells me one thing inside of me inside of me, it's pissing me off, it's upsetting me, it's stressing me out, I'm turmoil inside my head, but my actions reflect someone that is happy, smiling, relaxed, agreeable, right? So there's a disconnect between what goes on in my head and what I'm actually doing and that I think creates some discomfort in some people, right, some tension, when they do feel that disconnect between both.
Speaker 1:
Some people and I'm going to use this as a starting point, george, and you can share your thoughts I think some people may deal with this by trying to acquire some information. So you said something to me that triggered that kind of reaction, or I'm thinking one thing, that I'm acting in another way. I may seek to ask you for some more info, to try to agree with you, to eliminate that tension or discomfort, or I might try to minimize the impact of that inconsistency or gap that's in my mind so that I can kind of like relax myself a little bit. Your thoughts, I'll give it back to you before I continue and go into culture and more detail. What do you want to add to what I said?
Speaker 2:
I'm still stuck on the big terms of cognitive dissonance that you brought into our back to basics conversation here. So so, so trying to.
Speaker 1:
I said something that you don't know where you can talk about. That's the first in 35 years. Wow, let me say where the moment go ahead.
Speaker 2:
So I'm just trying to connect it a little bit to the, the facial expression. So are you saying that you're? You're in a situation, let's say, where you're in polite company, that you know, you know that you need to smile and look present, but something is going on that is not making you happy, right Is that you know? And so, on the inside, you're feeling like because I think we've all been there right where you're forced to try to look pleasant, you're forced to try to put that, that grin and bear it per se, maybe it's done.
Speaker 2:
So I'll tell you. My story is, you know, my parents would take me around everywhere, even to, you know, their friends houses, and we were expected to sit in the quarter and look pleasant, or you know, and not have entertainment per se. So as kids, we had to learn how to try to behave and look pleasant, even though we were mildly being tortured. Be completely bored out of her mind, right.
Speaker 1:
So is that is?
Speaker 2:
that is that the type of that literally torture, of just saying, as kids, you're terrible.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
So I mean, is that, is that the scenario that we're talking about, where you're forced to try to act a certain way, where inside your completely feeling something else?
Speaker 1:
Yes, that's actually an example. That's definitely an example and I could give you. I'll give you another example to write to try to give you a better idea what I'm talking about. Let me bring in culture. Some cultures prefer what we would call direct communication, just being blunt, upfront about what you're feeling. Some would prefer an indirect kind of discussion, right where you're not really. I'm not telling you, george, listen, you screwed this up. You need to fix this ASAP. It's your fault that this happened. Versus some people may prefer to have an indirect type of dialogue. You know how do you feel about and you do this a lot.
Speaker 1:
I noticed when we talk with people, you try to be very diplomatic, saying you know, how do you feel if we had done this? Instead of that, how do you feel if we had taken this approach, instead of saying you know what? You did this wrong? So picture this, george right, me and you different beliefs in our mind. Let's say I believe in the, in the direct and blunt right and you favored this is just hypothetically speaking. You favor the indirect approach.
Speaker 1:
Now I'm standing with you in front of five people that we were doing something with a project, working on something would and I take you by surprise. Those people had done something wrong. I take you by total surprise and I just confront them straight up, tell them you guys mess this up. You should have done this, this, this, this, this, before we even say hello. Right, which is not the approach that you would have wanted to take.
Speaker 1:
So now you're kind of like stuck in the middle between Do I go along with Moe and support him and back up his line of discussion, or do I stop Moe and restart, hit a repo like a reset button and say, moe, no, wait a second, let's take this in a different way.
Speaker 1:
Do you know what I mean, george? So, like, you're kind of like in that situation where inside your head You're thinking that this whole approach is wrong and should have been done in a different way. But yet now that I started this line of discussion and the whole defensive mechanisms are kicking in and you know being on attack and on the defensive, we have no choice but to join in with me to continue the discussion with those five people. So you will be taking on some activity which you don't really believe was the right approach from the beginning. But now you're kind of like, for whatever reason, you feel bad for me. You don't want to embarrass me. You kind of you know like you feel, like it's too late, whatever your reasoning is, but now you're acting in a way that's different from what was in your mind. So does that make sense?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I do and I think that there's so, just to be cleanly blunt about that, I try to avoid those scenarios. Just me personally, I know yeah.
Speaker 2:
Because, if I think there's a chance in a business sense, if there's a chance of that happening, I do pre-briefs about the approach. I try to get us to all agree on how, like, let's say, we're going into a meeting and we believe, regardless if they're a customer or some contractor or something of that nature if we believe that we've been wronged in some way, we try to agree on the approach, right, who's going to be the main speaker, who's going to be supported? So, in a business sense, we do that with pre-meeting planning, right. To avoid that, because I've been in those scenarios and for me personally they've usually not ended very well. I'll tell you one story. We had a customer that was saying things that just plain weren't true Objectively. It was just not true, right. So the leader of the meeting and I'll try to keep names out of it to not embarrass people, the names of the meeting. Now, the leader of the meeting was my supervisor, my boss, okay.
Speaker 2:
And he decided to directly tell the customer that they were a liar. They actually called them a liar and that made me very, very uncomfortable, and normally I would have do that. But I saw the customer was very taken aback and very upset by that comment and I decided to step in. You know, in hindsight maybe not the best thing to do, but I decided to step in and I said hey, you know, I'm not sure if they're a liar. I can say for sure that I don't think what they're saying is factually accurate. Maybe we should ask why they're saying this, given that it's not factually accurate, and point out you know what the facts are. You know, maybe they're just mistaken, right? Anyway, I nearly got thrown out of the room. It was very nasty actually, wow, and a very embarrassing scenario. I was embarrassed personally, but I was also embarrassed for my supervisor and the way he was acting.
Speaker 2:
I'm still not sure if what I did was right or wrong. But I felt as though pointing out you know that you don't just flat out call your customer a liar, which was probably the right thing to do. But, like for those reasons, you know the way I felt I had to act on it and that's the way I felt at the time. So I try to avoid cognitive dissonance, if that's what you call it.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
Yes, I'll grin and try to look pleasant and play company, even if I don't like that, but I'm probably going to try to leave whenever I can without looking to impolite. So you're bringing up the cognitive dissonance and it's been interesting. But how does that affect business situations? You know, are you saying it, for instance, like in negotiations? You might want to poke your face on it, even though you don't like their offer.
Speaker 1:
I wasn't thinking about that example, but I'll give you an example that has to do with negotiations. But let me just do a quick comment about what you just said. I think the example that you gave is a mix between your beliefs and what you believe you should do and the fact that you're seeking more information to diffuse or dilute that cognitive dissonance. You get what I mean. Like, remember what I said earlier, that sometimes you seek affirmation. That's exactly it. You're trying to do the proper, right thing to get some information to either agree with what your boss is saying to some extent right, or to show him in a professional way that you know what. No, let's give them a chance. There's just misunderstanding. But let me go back to your question Negotiating again, me and you and I'm going to make myself be the bad guy again. Let's say me and you are sitting together and we're negotiating with a client right Now. We're meeting with somebody in a country, right. So to bring in that cultural aspect of it, we're quote unquote gifting, not bribing, but gifting is okay.
Speaker 1:
So you see me sitting there and I know, based upon the beliefs of the customs of that culture that we're in, it's okay to take out a Rolex watch and a box wrapped up in a nice bow, nice gift trap, and I give it to the head of operations of the company procurement that we want to work with. I'm like, oh, here's a nice little gesture that we just want to thank you for You're taking the time to meet with us. Do you see what I mean, george? Right. So you're sitting there looking at it. You're blown away that I just broke an ethical code where I'm, in your mind, bribing somebody, but even though in that country that's actually considered, so to speak, a gift.
Speaker 1:
Now if we come back here to the US and our bosses, bosses, bosses find out that I did this, I'll be kicked out, just like you almost did in that meeting that you were at right Because I did a big, big no, no, but over there it's okay. So now you're sitting again in that dilemma. Your beliefs, your background, is very different from the beliefs and the customs of the country that we're in, right, cognitive descendants, again, right. So that starts a whole kind of conflicting view between what I did and what you believed to have happened, where there shouldn't have been a gift like this given at all because it's unethical even though it's not illegal, but it's unethical. I shouldn't have done that. So that triggers you know how do you act on the outside versus how you believe in the outside. So that's an example that comes right to my mind, because I know this happens a lot and I heard about it in a lot of interactions where the two differing culture views between two countries that are working together can come into play.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so that situation that you bring up, it would be a one that I would have some major cognitive dissidents.
Speaker 1:
I know, I know.
Speaker 2:
So so you bring up an interesting, because I do think, I do think you know, we're working for a US firm where we're American, we're bound by US laws and in the United States, bribing or you know that's, those are that's corruption and that's that's illegal right, exactly, you literally can't do that. So so you put me into a dilemma where I would so obligated to report it. And even though you're you're my friend, you know, and I and I, I feel a lot of affection for you.
Speaker 1:
You know that that would be a big, big problem for me, Right? So you know, I I'm just looking at your face now and I know you're looking at it like I know that's exactly what you would do, but and that's why I wanted to bring something up to an extreme. But that's exactly. But let me ask you, or something Okay, what about if we? You know we want to please that client, right, we want to obviously get the contract, so we take him out to dinner. If we take him out to dinner, is that long?
Speaker 2:
It depends to what level. So I'll just tell you where I work. We'd have to report that, right, and we'd have to talk about the LB, like, like what was eaten? Was there alcohol involved? Who attended? So there's, we would have that scrutiny. You know, for my day job right, my day job would scrutinize that we'd have to report it and ideally we'd get permission ahead of time on the levels and the scenario and what to do about that.
Speaker 1:
So the permission, where do you draw the line? Meaning, I went to a dinner one time at a Christmas time with a company back in the 2000s, when I was my corporate life, and they bought. We were in Bridgewater, new Jersey, and they bought an $8000 bottle of wine. Right, extreme, okay. What about if it was a thousand? What if it was $2,000 bottle of wine? What if it was a $500, $800. You get my point right.
Speaker 1:
Where does that cognitive dissonance kick in for people? And I'm just using an example. I know we can take this in a million different ways, but where does it become? Where, oh wow, those people are really spoiling me, they're really taking good care of me. Versus, don't you dare spend more than X amount on something to please your or schmooze with your client? What do you draw that line? Or how do you think about? What parameters do you think are that in your mind to decide to say you know what. We're only going to go up to X amount of dollars per transaction, per meal, per dinner, per whatever, per gift. What do we think about? Yeah, so.
Speaker 2:
So I I'll say that, yeah, that that's a hard one without, yeah right. And I would say that there's clear lines where you know you're talking about those extravagant bottles of wine and some other things. So you know there's a lot of favors and gifts that go on where I can tell you, if you're doing business with, let's say, the government that, that those are like immediate red flags, right, huge red flag.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that you can do.
Speaker 2:
I would say in certain corporate scenarios. Some of that I still think a thousand dollar bottle wine is, it is somehow a little crazy. But I I do know that Some of those things are a little bit more expected right in the way that business and I don't think it's all wrong. I I've I've been in the in the corporate business of business world before and some of those interactions system, those dinners, are important ways that you build relationships with clients and the way you build rapport that you get on a common line of bearing. So I don't think having dinner with clients or customers is a problem. I do. I do think that if it gets to the point where you're doing special favors and bribing and doing you know business in a way that you wouldn't do, there's something wrong with that scenario for sure.
Speaker 1:
Okay, okay, and I know we can spend hours talking about this number of different scenarios, meaning if you're selling a printer to that client versus if you're selling them a bowling plane, right like, depending on the contract and how much you're getting. I understand, and but let me let me do this, if it's okay with you. Let's switch to another dimension and I'll give another example about the trigger cognitive distance and I'll be based upon cultural views power distance. How much do I accept higher authority based upon my boss, the power that, or the authority that my boss has or that my boss's boss may have over me? What level of acceptance and obedience do I have based upon that? So, in some cultures that are pretty authoritarian in their business practices, it's very normal and I've seen this. Honestly, I'm going to use a very, very, very extreme example.
Speaker 1:
In retail I was being with a client, one of his sales reps in the business, and it was kind of like a warehouse. That a mistake. He slapped him on the face and it was. The guy turned around and said sorry, boss, I'm sorry about that, and he walked away and continued his work. He slapped him.
Speaker 1:
The first thing that came to my mind right? What if his wife was there? What if his kid was there? Would he still have slapped him? What if, what if, what if, what if you got the idea right? Like a million questions swirl through my mind. But all I could do? I stood back. I was 100% neutral, didn't comment in any way about what I saw. I'm just continued our discussion. You know about what I was there for.
Speaker 1:
But that to me, right, cognitive dissonance. My whole view of that manager after he did that slap changed and I was thinking to myself should it have changed? Should I stay the same way? I mean in this country, now that I spent months there. So it happened by him, by others, by others, by others, and it's a norm you drop something, you get physically punished for it, you mess something up. It's not like they're walking around and stacking each other, but I'm saying it happens right. So that opened up my mind to a whole kind of thinking, way of thinking when I'm dealing with people from cultures that have a whole different idea of power, distance.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so you know, it's that, that's that's prominent about. Like, the physical nature of that, of that culture, is kind of blowing my mind and I don't want to derail the whole conversation about the what, if, what, what would I do?
Speaker 1:
in that scenario.
Speaker 2:
But that that was terribly that was terribly uncomfortable for me that that's not and what I do a lot of international business and this is what what I'll say. I'll get to you know, the power distance in a second majority of the interactions that I have are in the nuance and, for instance, some certain cultures will be more forthcoming, like your previous examples and others.
Speaker 2:
Some are more correct than others and sometimes I need to listen and watch that culture or that person in that culture more closely to try to get their meaning. But, for instance, if they're not as direct as the US culture, I really try to examine their words and try to understand what they're saying and ask more follow up questions because I want to make sure that I really captured, whether they like it or not. Are they just telling me that it's? Oh, it's okay when they're saying this thing is horrible, right, that's?
Speaker 2:
what we mean In the power distance, you know. Let me ask you if this is a good, a good example. Yes, so in my company we had the a lot of former military people and, by the way, that's from stay weekend. So if you're a vet out there, thank you for your service.
Speaker 1:
Oh yeah, thank you for your service.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes, but if we have, you know, we have a lot of vets, a lot of people in the military in my company and oftentimes I find that they're very much in a higher they, they, I think because of the military training they really respect leadership right.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
And that's saying that I don't, that I don't respect. But sometimes when I'm working in a collaborative sense with with some of these people, whether they're in business development or engineering, you know, I will be willing to reinterpret.
Speaker 2:
you know executive leadership desires, right. I'm willing to reinterpret it to something that makes sense, something that I still, as though, will you know, come down to me and and they're not there, they're very much into. No, the authority, the power, said that I have to follow it to the letter. And yeah, my and my experiences it doesn't make sense. I have to tell the executive what they're saying doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:
I have to follow up because this doesn't make sense, or I will find a way for it to make sense and implement their desires in in a sensible manner. Right, does that make? Does that? Does that?
Speaker 1:
power distance and and and see. So you're saying you would ask questions to get some clarification right, like the gist of it is that right, but what, but what, what, what? If you were in the military, would you still ask why? Or would you just go and do it?
Speaker 2:
Um, it depends, so I'll, and I'll tell you why it depends, right?
Speaker 2:
So I I feel as though when you're in the military and this is just I'll just tell you the way I am in the military- so, um, if, if you're, if you're in a, let's say, uh, life and death situation and you are getting an order that totally doesn't make sense, right, you should, I believe, ask them to repeat the order. Right, please repeat that order, please. You know, please confirm, confirm this that you're requesting this. I think asking for confirmation makes sense. Uh, now, in the military, if you're in operations and you're being told you know specific direction, it's set up in in such a way where you have to do that right, because you not acting in a timely manner could mean life and death in a bad way for for the people you're supporting.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, I would do it right.
Speaker 2:
But, but, but I would probably ask for clarification. If I was in a military scenario and it was not a life and death, let's say combat scenario, I I might in a nice way privately challenge my, my, my supervisor and say look, this is, this is what I'm seeing here. I bring into this privately, of course, you know we'll, we'll carry it out as as you requested, but here's, here's the way I see it, and I you know, because I'm your subordinate.
Speaker 2:
I feel it's my obligation to make you the best you can. So here's here's what I say.
Speaker 1:
You know it's a whole other. It'll be a whole other interesting discussion. Talk about the differences between cognitive dissonance, between the military world and the corporate world. And you know, to try to bring somebody in that lives in that world, to ask them, you know because I think it would be a whole different mentality how you deal with that disconnect in your mind, with your actions, especially if you're in the middle of battle, right, you know, I just thought of that now while we were talking, but yeah, anyway, no, but we're not going to get too deep into it now, but yeah, so those are kind of like the main things I thought about. Right, like power, distance, the communication style, the culture accepting change. Also right, like how, how much does someone believe in change versus stability and the fear of the unknown, asking somebody to do something that they think is going to change their world? I can think of you know several, many different examples where a cultural aspect or background would trigger a cognitive dissonance kind of reaction.
Speaker 2:
So I just want to wrap it up and I know we're running out of time and not to bring something up for that minute.
Speaker 2:
But, but I was listening to a book, actually listening to an audio book about how to talk to people, and one of the issues they brought up was being over the phone. Right, and being over the phone, yeah, it is a scenario where facial expressions might not matter, right, yeah. But just thinking about cognitive dissonance and kind of like the almost the opposite of that is true too. And this this person recommended that, in order to sound pleasant on the phone, you want to purposely smile when answering the phone, even though the person can't hear you.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah and that and that and that, like you can actually drive your posture, your facial expressions and the way you are over the phone in a way to present yourself vocally better. And I just think that that concept of cognitive dissonance and how maybe to avoid it by continuing to have good expressions, good presentation skills, even when you're not necessarily being seen.
Speaker 1:
And you know it makes perfect sense, for the same reason why people, sometimes, when they're arguing or fighting over the phone, they're wave their fist, they shake their hands, they, you know, like they raise up, they swing their arms. I think in the same manner, it would also help if you do the opposite and try to smile, try to, you know, feel that confidence in your posture. So, not a good point. I agree with the 100%. Now, this is. This has been interesting. I'm glad we bought this up and I think it was worth it to you know, spend this time talking about cognitive dissonance. It was an interesting point, like you know, bringing in that part of the negotiation, the decision making process. It was worth the time, I think, to bring this point up so that, you know, just open up people's minds to it and have them think about it more. I'll definitely think about it more later, you know, see what other factors could influence it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. So what I'm thinking about is maybe for next time let's talk about body language in more formal scenarios like interviewing, presenting, and not just kind of like an everyday scenario, but maybe a special scenario where you might need to get dressed up or present, or you know, presenting is good. It looks like you're putting together.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, I like the sound of presenting because I know we talked about interviews before. Definitely we can bring it up again. But yeah, let's bring in the presentation angle. I think that one would be useful to a lot of people. Sounds good, george, we'll do that, buddy.
Speaker 2:
So listen, let's wrap it up here, Mo and it's been a great conversation, and so thank you all for listening to this episode of Back to Basics on the Business Edge, brought to you by Feliciano School of Business at Montclair State University. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and welcome any feedback you have for us, including suggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1:
Thank you, george, and thank you to all of our listeners, as always, and I look forward to our next discussion. Buddy, we'll continue this dialogue. See you next time. I'm back to basic spot test everyone, take care, awesome, see you next time.