Anonymous "Doc" from Denver, CO, is a Family Medicine practitioner who lists termination of pregnancy as one of the services he provides and has been providing for the past 25-plus years. In addition to earning his MD, he also has a degree in Public Health. He practices family medicine, teaches, and takes on interns who wish to learn about the historical facts, public health effects, and procedural techniques of terminating pregnancies. Doc has first-hand accounts of the threats to the safety of providers and women seeking abortion services, a deep appreciation for radical feminist literature, and is doing important work to keep women alive, intact, and safe.
Anonymous "Doc" from Denver, CO, is a Family Medicine practitioner who lists termination of pregnancy as one of the services he provides and has been providing for the past 25-plus years. In addition to earning his MD, he also has a degree in Public Health. He practices family medicine, teaches, and takes on interns who wish to learn about the historical facts, public health effects, and procedural techniques of terminating pregnancies. Doc has first-hand accounts of the threats to the safety of providers and women seeking abortion services, a deep appreciation for radical feminist literature, and is doing important work to keep women alive, intact, and safe.
Everything that we do is a collection of our own politics. Our own thought. You were the political body to these body politics. I think all dances political. We can't really escape that. I am quote unquote just a dancer. I was angry and I learned to harness my anger. Math would argue is provoked actions, thoughts, and I drive towards change. That's kind of our role is to put the audience in a place where they have to think and they have to knowledge these body politics, acknowledge the political body, acknowledged the body politic. Welcome back to body politic, the podcast at the intersection of Performing Arts and political activism. I'm your host, Courtney[inaudible], and this is episode five. I want to talk a little bit about the current state of reproductive affairs in our country. What's happening is that fewer and fewer abortion clinics or providers of abortion services are allowed to do their jobs. Some states have effectively banned all abortions. Five states, Georgia, Ohio, Kentucky, Mississippi, and Louisiana have already passed bills which prohibit abortion after six weeks before. Most women even realize that they're pregnant, but there's more concerning issues than that. Women will not stop seeking out abortion services simply because they will be punished by law or because the services become illegal. They will continue to abort and n pregnancies as they have in every century in every civilization. On record, what will happen is women will die. Many, many women will die. Our job as citizens in a community is to protect all of our lives and you can argue whether or not a fetus is it living, being what happens when that child is born. Where is the care in this country for the unwanted children? Where is the care for the women after they've given birth, when they have caretaking responsibilities, when their ability to earn income is drastically reduced and their expenses skyrocket because of child care costs and medical costs, what happens to those people? This issue is less about the unborn than it is about control and power. It's an emotional issue that draws people in to vote a certain way to keep a certain party in power. The people making these laws do not care about the lives of the children. They do not care about the lives of the women. As a woman, I do not matter to these people, so I've taken a quick break from interviewing, performing artists who happen to be activists and had a long conversation with the family medicine doctor in Denver who also provides abortion services. That's all I'll say. I cannot name him for security reasons. He has lost friends to prolife extremists in order to keep him safe. This is part one of my conversation with doc Denver. Enjoy. Welcome back to the body politic. Tonight we're going a little bit beyond the scope of performing arts and speaking with an MD in Denver, Colorado. We're going to call him doc. I met him fortuitously in Iceland, so I love to let him introduce himself. Tell us a little bit about his background and why that it was timely to have him on the show. I'm going to avoid legal snags by telling you you're being recorded. I understand and I will. Thank you. Oh my God. A white male who understands consent.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on your podcast. So yes, I am not going to tell you my name right now because I have some very important security issues, but I'm a physician, a medical doctor in Denver, Colorado. Uh, and it also had a degree in public health. So I'm in private practice here in the Denver area, haven't been for 25 years and I'm a family physician. Uh, my, my private practice involves many things. I see adults and kids and a lot of the day has been doing Debbie's hypertension, cholesterol, knee pain, arthritis. Part of my practice has always been termination of pregnancy. And so, uh, that's just a part of my practice. Although the majority of my patients are in for routine primary care. It's, it's all just integrated together into my, into my practice. Uh, I'm on faculty at multiple different residency programs, so I have family docs and ob Gyn is coming in. I have medical students come from all over North America and they spend anywhere from a few days to a month or more with me learning the techniques and the, and the historic and the public health implications of abortion. So I provide the service and I teach about it. Uh, I also feel very strongly that abortion is a very important service, uh, on many levels. And so that's always been a part of my practice. And, uh, I might, uh, see three to 10 women in any given day who need me to terminate a pregnancy and I'm, I'm honored to be able to help them out with an important part in the life. Um, so it's not, some people use the term abortion clinic. I don't have an abortion clinic. I have a family medicine office, but abortion is one of the things I do. It's had a lot of implications to my life and my family life and other things, but I'm proud of it and, um, I'm glad I can help.
Speaker 1:So starting with security issues, um, how has your practice affected your life? What do you need to do to keep yourself safe aside from remain anonymous in situations like this? But what are the main concerns there?
Speaker 2:Well, offers, all the security concerns are, are pretty serious. It's very real. Um, uh, a friend and colleague of mine in George Tiller, uh, was assassinated, I think it's been almost 10 years now. Uh, in Kansas. He was providing the same service I do and he was, he was well known as providing that service and he was outspoken. He wasn't they provocateur, but he was undeterred and providing the service. Uh, and he had had pushed back like, we all do death threats. You know, I wear a bulletproof vest, um, to, to work. Not every day kind of depends on, um, on what I have feel like the temperature of things has been lately. But anyway, uh, George was at church one day with his wife. He was helping out as an[inaudible] and they just finished, I'm collecting the tide from the parishioners and he was in the back of the church and Vista view, I think when a gentleman walked in and put a gun to his head. And shot him in the head as standing next to his wife. There are several other physicians and non physician staff members have been killed. And so the, you know, this is security issues a genuine, now I also don't want to overstate it, right? It's still is far more dangerous to be a farmer in this country. It's far more dangerous to be a first responder. It probably shouldn't be part of the job description that people are trying to kill you. But so there, there are genuine security concerns. Now what does that mean in my day to day life? Well, because the protesters will sometimes go in and you have implant, big Gaudy, vivid, ugly signs in front of somebody's front yard in different states have different laws about whether or not that's okay. But usually it is, a lot of physicians will choose to live either outside of town. I, since I'm in Denver, I used to live in evergreen, which is a, a mountain town. And, uh, you know, I lived in a beautiful place on the end of a dead end dirt road and there was no audience for, for any protestors. And simultaneously I had a, had a small loft in downtown Denver where, you know, the protesters are going to be unlikely because they don't know exactly what unit I'm in. They can't get in the building and they have to harass a lot of people that are completely unrelated to me. And so I, you know, you have to make some decisions about where you're going to live. Um, where are you going to have your office? And then another year from time to time, these protestors in front of my building, I get death threats, um, on the phone or nasty letters. So the, you know, this is just part of that. I, you know what I, this is a great country and a lot of ways I'm a big fan of freedom of speech. And so when I have the protesters out there, people handing out pamphlets, I just think, you know, it's an awesome country, right? These people can say what they want to say and at the very same time these women can do with they think is best for them. I get to provide a service that I think is a good and important service. There's a lot of freedom to go around here and um, and we just kind of have to tolerate each other.
Speaker 1:My deepest sympathies, I'm so sorry that you had to suffer the loss of people close to you, infuriates me and saddens me so deeply to know that people who are doing the work to give women the autonomy over their bodies and even that statement like give a woman autonomy when we can't have it ourselves. Right? Yeah. Just like that itself is a huge statement, right?
Speaker 2:It is. Autonomy should not be given. It should not be granted. It is, you're right. It is your inherent right now it might be affirmed, it might be honored, but it's not granted. It is yours from the get go
Speaker 1:with men who are, are trying to be allies to women in this current state. We're in probably that we've been in for the past 200 years. Just, we've had this sense of security. But when men say, let's help give women their reproductive freedom, something about that makes me bristle. And that's just it. We have opportunities. Why don't you just help support it or help enable it? Or I didn't know what a better word is, but it definitely don't, don't give it to us. We already have it.
Speaker 2:I think that language is very important and it reflects, uh, our underlying attitudes. At the same time. I'm much more interested in getting the laws right, keeping people safe, keeping women and tact. And it'll be great luxury for us so we can start pouring more energy into our word choices. But, um, the word choices or are essential. I'm, I'm, I'm not denigrating the issue at all, but, uh, gosh, there's so much we have to work on and hopefully we can learn to get the language right as well
Speaker 1:when, that'd be great. So a little bit of background, I ended up going into the sun on every episode with each new guests. But the purpose behind this podcast is, is multifold. I mean, one, it's, it's a project, so I'm getting credit for it, but I chose it as a project because I've always wanted to do this and I wouldn't have done it unless something was on the line. And there's so many things I care so much about that I have no idea how to narrow my focus. So that's what you're saying. Like it'd be so nice to be able to narrow things down. So I just cared about my language or I just cared about one issue. But there's so many things to fix and I don't know why we keep coming back in politics and in history to the singular issue of abortion and rich productive freedom. I mean, I, I do know, right? It's about control I think. Um, but what's your take on that? Why do we keep on coming back to abortion as this central emotional unifying issue that keeps our country divided? Hello? That's a great question. I, well,
Speaker 2:in a democracy, the winners, the one with the most votes and every vote counts the same. Whether you have very, very little information, powers of analysis, philosophical bent, or you have a lot of those things, you're, everybody's vote is the same. And we are born with very little on our hard drive. I mean we're born very, very ignorant, takes a lot of education and experience to have a head full of facts and knowledge and evidence and the ability to process at all. So we end up with is it's really easy to find votes of people who don't know facts and history about a subject. And so these are the people that are easily persuaded by very emotional issues, right? And so it's part of our political system to get people to show up on the day of the election by whatever means necessary. And it's well known that say a Republican candidate needs votes and is mostly interested in say a tax reform that provide tax breaks for the wealthy are for corporations. That's what they're interested in. But that doesn't motivate people to show up at the ballot box. So what you gotta do is you've got to find these emotionally hot button issues to get everybody to show up on that particular issue. And while they're there, they just start, they just vote a straight Republican ticket. And, and this happens on the other side too, of course, right? You know, let's get everybody in a lather about no transgender bathrooms or binary bathrooms or something and get all the Democrats to come in. And by the way, they just voted a straight party ticket. So manipulating people with kind of a very, very emotional issues. It's a normal mode of operation. Right? And so, so this is going to be a perennial hot minute, but does she just because people would be manipulated to come in and so, but you know, I think that your question is why is this a hot social issue? And I think, um, it's because, you know, everybody has personal experience themselves or with the loved ones that have been pregnant and they didn't want to be, want to be pregnant and couldn't be, we're pregnant and miscarried. I'm pregnant at the wrong. Everybody has a very human experience and it's very highly emotionally charged. So some people have a lot of deeply held personal opinions on this matter, so they're easily manipulated on this topic. The evangelicals, of course, have been especially vocal on this issue. And it's a very, it's a very interesting phenomenon, right? Because if we ask ourselves why, by the way, do the evangelicals so enthusiastically and overwhelmingly support Trump? Well, I mean, I think the short answer is the Trump administration has given evangelicals unprecedented access to the lighthouse. Okay. They have unprecedented influencing what's going on there and they're willing to sacrifice what would appear to it. A lot of people to be there. Their integrity, right? I mean, really Jesus's message versus Donald Trump, it's hard for most people to find how he would be the face man for Christianity or for evangelicalism. But Donald Trump represents a lot more than an evangelical viewpoint. He represents, um, a whole worldview that is slipping away. And it's an old style worldview where men are at the top of the pyramid. White people are above black people. Uh, there's an old traditional way of living and, um, there's a whole evangelical world view that is represented by Donald Trump. And so they are, they're willing to wave away the fact that he's made a shambles of the beatitudes, met a shambles of the 10 commandments. And so Donald Trump becomes the, the superstar for the Evangelical Movement. However ironic that might be.
Speaker 1:Yet, when you cherry pick the Bible and teach an interpretation of the cherry picked parts of the Bible without teaching it in whole, as a piece of literature from the Bronze Age, from a very select population that can read and write, you know, I mean, it's, it would be funny if it weren't true.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Let's, let's look for example at Isis. Okay. The so called Islamic state. So this is not, this is not fundamentally a religious organization. This is an organization that's about power and control and men controlling women and men controlling families. It's about forcing other people to do and behave as they dictate. Now they do many, many things that are completely contrary to the Qur'an. Mohammad would be appalled that this organization calls themselves the Islamic state. But these people, they've learned a long time ago that if they cloak themselves in religion and say, we're doing this in, in the name of a righteous flood, it's scares and motivates the masses. Oh, I guess I have to be along this organization. I want to be good with God. And so they, they fall in line because they think it's a religious calling. But the leaders of the organization very, very cynically are just about the power and the control. But they know that this religious cloak gives them the power of the masses. Okay. And that's very similar to what's happening in America right now. The Evangelical Movement has done a great job of tricking people into thinking this is a religious organization. It's not. It's about power and control. And the only way that they can have this power and control over people is if they cloak it in religion. But, but it becomes so obviously not about religion when they're superstars. Donald Trump, who's the antithesis of the Christian message. So it's not about power control. It's not a religious organization. It's a power organization, cynically wrapping themselves in the cloak of Christianity. It's tragic for home parties.
Speaker 1:I could not agree more. You just have a better way of saying it. I guess if you, there's no non offensive way to say this, but if you weren't very free thinking or very educated and you really didn't believe but also maybe believed in a deity or an afterlife and the fear of hell was that visceral to you? I guess you'd rather err on the side of led rather not go to hell just in case it exists then what if it does? And that's again, it's a huge speculation, but I, I understand that it's just infuriating. A good question for you. You are a white male medical doctor, so it's fair to call you a one percenter for right? I mean, you're in the 1% part of the patriarchy. Yeah, yeah, maybe so. I, you know, um, you know what I mean? So it's essentially the on people, you're on a patriarchy, however you are on the side of reason and autonomy. So what is that like in your daily, how did you end up here? How did you become an ally to the other side? 98% do you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, first of all, yeah.
Speaker 2:Stereotypes are there based on some kind of core pattern that says, oh, I don't know. Crime is more prevalent in the African American community. Therefore the next step can American I see is probably criminal. I know it's so people, people make these gross, ridiculous generalizations and one of them among many is about patriarchy. So every white male you see is obviously part of the problem. Well, not that suggest damn silly. Right? So, so it, what's, what's fabulous is that there are always a multitude of people who defy stereotypes. Um, the, the patriarchy is real and it's appalling and it's oppressive, but it is not uniformly inclusive of all white man. Right. And so I think I've got white friends who are not racist. I've gotten male friends who are powerful feminists. I've, yeah. Anyway, on it goes, I got rich friends who are, who are, um, defenders and supporters and activists for the poor. So thank goodness there's a lot of people who defy stereotypes. And I would, I would, I hope I'm one of them. I really, really hope I'm not part of the Patriarchy and I'm full of myself. But to the extent that I have gravitated away from the center of Patriarchy, it's why is that? Well, no, frankly I was taught people who don't have the advantages that you have had. They could use some help from him to whom much is given, much is expected. Um, it doesn't matter what your skin color is or we could, gender is just be a decent human being. And I think I just, that was really lucky. I've got some great parents who I think sorta tried to point me in the right direction on these things. And I realized the principles of say, racial relations, they, they, they are important regardless of your own skin colors. So it's, it's really tragic that when there's a race issue or did you know, there's time for a prayed in the streets? Uh, some protest march in Denver. It's about race. The disproportionate number are people of color. Well, what a shame. You know, this is not a racial issue. Whether you're, no matter what color you are, you should be out there doing the right thing. And then there'd be a, you know, there'd be a march for women's rights. It's, it's too bad that it's disproportionately women where all the men, right. There are a lot of men out there, but I don't like that it's disproportionate because it's a philosophical issue. It's not a gender issue. And, um, so the men should be out there. So anyone, yeah, I belong to the, the segment of the demographic that is mostly responsible for the patriarchy, but I fight the patriarchy. Um, every way I can, you know, you asked me how did I, how did I end up that way is partly my parents. And it's partly just studying history, you know, read Seminis literature or read Western history. And if anybody has any degree of sympathy for the underdog or sympathies for the, the oppressed or the downtrodden, you start getting more and more angry, more and more activated. In the defense of poor people, mentally ill people are minorities of race. Uh, the women, there are so many demographic groups that have had an unfair shake. Anybody with a sense of justice would want to try and help out.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what was the pivotal piece of feminist literature that you read that puts you on this track? If I'm sure there was more than one. Yeah. But can you remember like, no, there's linkedin time where there's one thing you were at or one age and it was like, you're like, this is what I need to do with my life.
Speaker 2:Yes. The second sex by Simone de Beauvoir. Yay. So a French writer from what I think it's forties or fifties, I'm embarrassed to say it, harm number. Um, but yeah, I was, you know, I was in my early twenties and this was thrust into my hand by some, you know, good friend and it really blew me away. It blew me away. Yeah, sure. And then it started me down a path of reading other feminists literature. And, um, I have, you know, on a whole bookshelf of, of my favorite tomes, but it just, it just, uh, you know, I was so embarrassed from a gender that we have so systematically make life difficult, um, for women. And Yeah, the second sex, there's another great book called sex and history. Um, of course, um, well behaved women seldom make history, uh, is a great read reviving Ophelia about raising strong girls to be strong, young women, uh, who don't, are just kind of a sniffle and acquiesce to men and young girls. I mean, girls your own age, eight, nine, 10, um, can be dynamic and outspoken and opinionated and just in and completely undeterred about being involved with everything they do on school and they play sports and everything. And so awesome. Sometime between the age of 10 and 17, there's all these culturally learned regression's that are just so tragic. And, um, so anyway, one of my favorite books is called reviving Ophelia. It's about raising strong girls can be strong women who no longer dumb themselves down and hold back to try and, you know, please the boy,
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask you to speculate, which I know is not your favorite. Um, just because said, and I agree, I've seen it, I felt it. I experienced it until the age of 10 or 11. I was fearless and unstoppable and then before puberty, during and then after when I realized I was an object for men to admire, it changed. And I'm going to ask you to speculate again. Do you think that changed me maybe occurs because of the prevalence of sexual abuse that happens. So girls in general just kind of fold in. Do you think it's that prevalent that it could be an issue to, they're protecting themselves or do you think it's because they're acquiescing to try and become less threatening to males or become more attractive or more Stepford in order to, you know, when a man,
Speaker 2:well, you're right, I am speculating, but what are the, what are the forces that cause powerful independent minded girls to, to abandon those, you know, that lifestyle without that frame of mind. I, you say sexual abuse, that's gotta be on the list, but there's, there's economic abuse, there's anti intellectual abuse. There's um, family role abuse and role modeling abuse. I mean, it says it's so pervasive from so many directions. These young girls who start thinking, I won't be liked. I won't be loved. I'm going to be lonely the rest of my life if I continue to express interest in chemistry. It was sexual abuse. Yeah. Yeah. That's gotta be on the list. Um, but it's one of many, many forms of abuse of the gender.
Speaker 1:One of the hardest things I ever heard from my dad was shortly after I'd gotten divorced and he sat me down. He looked at me square in the eyes and he said, you know, Courtney, I'm so afraid you're never going to find happiness with a mates because you don't know how to follow a man if he's listening, dad. Sorry. But that was a moment, you know, I have a father who was very stubborn. I mean that is an understatement. And I am just like him in a lot of ways. And it took me a divorce in a whole lot of deconditioning to realize how to interact with people in a way that made people want to be around you. Um, and I know he's not the only man who thinks like that. I'm sure I'm not the only daughter who has been told to dim their shine and Mary successfully or be happy. But I wouldn't be happy unless it was pissing somebody off, honestly. Cause I, my father's daughter, he's the exact same way. Anyway, I want you to talk to me more about, um, the term you used, anti intellectual abuse. Talk to me about.
Speaker 2:So we all, I think experience, intellectual wisdom, even if we don't know the term, but the, you know, the term means people who have not just a dislike for, but a kind of a sneering contempt for the person wants to reference history or science or philosophy or y'all are just, you know, a deeper, broader fund knowledge. And, um, one of my favorite books of all is, um, by Richard Hofstadter and he won the Pulitzer Prize in 1964 for his book anti intellectual Islam in American life. And he poses the question, Hey, if anti intellectual ism is, is just an informal kind of pejorative reflex, it's part of our human nature. It's all over the world. Why in America is, it is so much more of it. Why, why do we have such, such a large helping of this anti-intellectualism in our culture? And he tracks from the very beginning of the colonies how the type of people that came over infused our education system, our business community, our church or religious system with a proud defiant anti-intellectualism. None of this church of England business for them. These Presbyterian Anglican churches are rambling on and on about the Greeks. They, they just wanted rough and ready, common sense. Let's go all in the snow and let's bark like dogs. And so these kind of revivalist church, uh, type meetings and an education system that was a high minded ideal and ruefully underfunded and images from early literature, you know, it Kabod crane or, I'm trying to think of who some of these charming well meaning, but really ridiculous and ineffective figures were and, and the history of American literature for as teachers. Our teachers have always been kind of, um, I can doctor how standard says something like our teachers were always taken from the upper half of the bottom half of our intellectual talent. And that is such a horrible disservice to teachers that the teachers in this country is so incredibly hardworking, so talented, so smart, and they're so underfunded, an unsupported. But as a result, we get an educational system that is in many ways anti intellectual. Um, anyway, so the American life has been very, very anti intellectual, uh, much, much to our disgrace and to our loss. And we have to put up with being teased for being a nerd. And you know, we all remember the days when you'd have to kind of sneak your books home. Uh, if you wanted to do your homework, you for sure didn't raise your hand in class. If you did, you'd hear the snickers, you lose friends over having an opinion. Um, you lose friends that were getting good grades on. Not everybody wanted to disclose like that, but a lot of people can relate that if you actually have an opinion, if you did your reading, if you do well in school, um, you no longer cool. Thank you for listening to this episode of body politic and not sure yet if you'll have one
Speaker 1:or two more episodes in this series with doc from Denver are wonderfully subversive. One percenter crusading in Denver fighting for the rights of all people on deck. We also have Martika Daniel's a sideshow performer in Kansas City, Missouri, choreographer Sidra Bell from New York City and performer and choreographer. Alex Jones from Florida. Thank you again to doc to you, the listeners to our sponsor, Byron Green to Hollins University. And two incompetent.com for their free music and composer. Kevin McCloud.