In this episode, Leading While Grieving with Hannah Wachter, Benjamin and Hannah start off exploring her transformation from a grieving daughter to an executive grief coach. She bravely shared how the loss of her mother influenced her leadership and prompted her to challenge the misconceptions of grief in Western society. Hannah stressed the importance of acknowledging and accepting grief, and she offered some invaluable advice on how leaders can honor their loved ones while also processing their grief. The conversation took a deeper turn as they began to discuss fear as a manifestation of grief, and how this often misunderstood emotion can greatly impact the grieving process. This is an essential conversation for everyone who has lost someone. Hannah has a graduate degree in Christian Leadership and has worked as a mindset coach before focusing on coaching clients through grief recovery.
Episode Quote:
"Find a space where you can open up and express your grief , which is your own. You are not going to grieve like anyone else because your story is unique and your loss unique to you. Don't compare your grief to anyone else's grief. You don't get over the loss of someone you loved, but you can work through the pain and come out on the other side. Jesus grieved, it's human."
This episode, like all Rise and Lead Podcast episodes, is highly practical and motivating. Don't forget to subscribe to the Rise and Lead Podcast to ensure you get notified when new episodes release every month. When you share about the podcast, make sure and tag @benjaminlundquist, and he'll always try and give you a re-post. Remember, the best time to rise and lead is now!
Want to reach out to Hannah Wachter?
Email: heyhey@hannahwachter.com
Click here for grief support and recovery resources: Library of Lament
In this episode, Leading While Grieving with Hannah Wachter, Benjamin and Hannah start off exploring her transformation from a grieving daughter to an executive grief coach. She bravely shared how the loss of her mother influenced her leadership and prompted her to challenge the misconceptions of grief in Western society. Hannah stressed the importance of acknowledging and accepting grief, and she offered some invaluable advice on how leaders can honor their loved ones while also processing their grief. The conversation took a deeper turn as they began to discuss fear as a manifestation of grief, and how this often misunderstood emotion can greatly impact the grieving process. This is an essential conversation for everyone who has lost someone. Hannah has a graduate degree in Christian Leadership and has worked as a mindset coach before focusing on coaching clients through grief recovery.
Episode Quote:
"Find a space where you can open up and express your grief , which is your own. You are not going to grieve like anyone else because your story is unique and your loss unique to you. Don't compare your grief to anyone else's grief. You don't get over the loss of someone you loved, but you can work through the pain and come out on the other side. Jesus grieved, it's human."
This episode, like all Rise and Lead Podcast episodes, is highly practical and motivating. Don't forget to subscribe to the Rise and Lead Podcast to ensure you get notified when new episodes release every month. When you share about the podcast, make sure and tag @benjaminlundquist, and he'll always try and give you a re-post. Remember, the best time to rise and lead is now!
Want to reach out to Hannah Wachter?
Email: heyhey@hannahwachter.com
Click here for grief support and recovery resources: Library of Lament
I don't ever want to get over my mom. I don't ever want to not miss her because I really loved her. That's the depth of my love for her. So I don't want to get over it. I don't want it to paralyze me. I don't want to become a victim to my grief. I don't want to become defined by my grief, but I want to always honor and love and cherish my mom. Right, you can work through it, you can process through it, you can have people come alongside you and love you through it, and I think you can grow with the grief. You can grow through the grief.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Rise and Lead. I'm Benjamin Lundquist and this podcast is all about personal growth and leadership. Thank you for listening and for being a part of our Rise and Lead community. We are a community of leaders who are passionate about growth, leadership and expanding our impact on the world. On this episode Leading While Grieving, I sit down for a powerful conversation with Hannah Wachter. Hannah is an executive grief coach and together we talk about the sudden loss of her mother, what she learned about grief through her own experience and through her own experience through coaching clients through the grieving process, and how leaders like you can approach grieving while you are still expected to lead through loss.
Speaker 2:This episode is not intended to fix anyone's grief or pain, but to provide support and a path forward. The Lead podcast is designed specifically to motivate and equip you to live your greatest life with maximum impact. We are going to find out what makes great leaders great and how you can start growing yourself, rise, expanding your impact, lead and living the life you have been created to live. One thing I know is that we are stronger together, and I want to personally invite you to be a rise and lead partner in spreading the word about this podcast and all the episodes that will follow. So together we can reach more people. If you haven't done so already, remember to subscribe to the podcast so you can get all the episodes that release every month.
Speaker 2:Rate the podcast I'm always going for a five star rating. If you think rise and lead deserves five stars, I would greatly appreciate that. Leave a written review If you haven't done so already. Your reviews. They make a huge difference. And finally, share about rise and lead with your family, your friends and your social media network.
Speaker 2:Screenshot this episode leading while grieving, and send it to someone, or text someone the episode link. You are helping people rise to their next level by connecting them to an episode. And when you share about the podcast as a social media post or story, make sure you tag me and I will always try and give you a repost. Your input, ratings, reviews and shares help our team to continue creating a better podcast to serve great leaders like you. If this is your first time listening, welcome, and I would encourage you to go back and listen to the rise and lead foundation episode so you can hear more about my story and the five foundational pillars of the podcast. I like to start each episode with prayer, especially this one, so let's pray together. Dear God, there is someone listening to this episode who is weighed down by a huge amount of grief. They have lost someone or something that means a great deal to them. Use this episode as a source of comfort and support for that person. In your name we pray, amen.
Speaker 1:Let's dive right into my conversation with Hannah Walker about a year and eight months ago, my mom suddenly passed away. She had a stroke while she was driving to work. It was on a Thursday in February and that following Thursday she was gone, and so it was a very sudden, unexpected event in my life and it was traumatic. If I'm being honest, right, I'm just going about my business and then all of a sudden get this really hard phone call that my mom had had a stroke. We didn't have a lot of details, I was across the country from my mom and so it was the very intense week a week, I would say that was like full of hope and horror, and it ended up with her passing away.
Speaker 1:I shared very honestly over social media about my experience with my mom's death and I found Ben, either one or two reactions. I found people who were very well-meaning but said really painful things, like they wanted to say something that was comforting, but they ended up saying things that were really hurtful or kind of compounded my grief, and it just was confusing for me because I was like, wow, I just I don't think we know how to grieve well as a Western society or culture. So there was that response, or there was the response of people who were resonating with what I was sharing to the point where they were processing feelings of grief that they had not even processed or named to other people before. And so I was like I think between the two things, like people are well-meaning but they actually end up adding more often to the hurt than helping. And then there are people out here who are really hurting, and I've never been able to name things. I just thought to myself there has to be a program out there or something better, or a place where people can bring their hurts and their wounds and process what they're going through, or a place for people to get equipped and be educated about how to support people who are grieving in their life.
Speaker 1:And so, through that process, I had this button that I made. I made a button that said please be gentle with me, I'm grieving. And as I encountered different people, someone approached me about that button and said hey, have you heard of this program called the grief recovery method? And I was like, no, I've never heard of it. And so I started to look into it. And the minute that I started to read the book, et cetera, I was like this, this is it, this is the program to me that makes the most sense for grieving people, and I decided to get certified as an advanced grief recovery specialist, which is my technical title. I already was a coach, and so this just felt like the natural next step or progression for me and my heart and my passions in my business. So that's how I became a grief coach.
Speaker 2:What working definition for grief has made the most sense to you?
Speaker 1:First and foremost we say and I believe this that grief is the normal and natural reaction to loss. And loss can encompass many, many different things. I know we're going to talk about that a little bit later, but loss is a wide range of things. So grief is the normal and natural reaction to loss. And then grief is also the conflicting feelings that come about because of an end or a change in a familiar pattern of behavior. A job is a great example. Like you're used to going to your job every day and doing certain things and then suddenly you're not, you get laid off and you're not doing those things anymore. There's grief around that. Your pattern of behavior or existing is different and you have to kind of process that. I believe that grief is love with nowhere to go. That expression is part of the grief, the grief outflow.
Speaker 2:So definition that I heard of grief this was just recently is right in line with what you were saying that grief, when you get down to it, at the core, is having so much love for someone but you have no one to give it to. That's right. And so you have all this stored up love that creates tension and anxiety, depression. You're living in this scramble of you, want to give and share this love that you have for people you care about, and you just don't have anybody to receive that and give that love to death especially is like an amputation amputees.
Speaker 1:They have this thing called a phantom limb. So 80% of amputees have this where they want to like, use the body part that's no longer there. They feel like this itching or twitching or something from the missing limb and it's really just because our brains have nerve endings that were connected to that missing limb and those nerve endings are still saying, hey, operate, move that part of your body, but something's missing, they can't move it. And I feel like death especially is that way where our brains still say, hey, this person's here. Oh, I just want to call this person, I just want to, and you can't do it because that thing is no longer there. So you feel that lack of a place to express your feelings or love, especially to what was there before. Something is missing and in that way you as Griebers, we feel disconnected and apart.
Speaker 2:At times, I think, when you are in such heavy grief, you almost feel like you're on an island, and whether you want to call it grief island, but you're just on this island. Things are happening around you but they're not making sense and really what you want to do is you just want to go back to the way things were and you want to go back to the stability, consistency of those routines and those habits and that relationship. But you're stuck on this island and you don't really know how do you get off this island that you're on and it feels like you're never going to get off this island.
Speaker 1:The health community calls it grief brain where and it's almost like a depression response but you're almost, you're lethargic, you have a hard time processing things. These are real physiological responses to grief and everything is happening around you for sure, but you're kind of like moving in slow motion. It's hard to understand. Things relate to people in the same way, because you've just been through something so painful that it's taking up all of your physical energy to process that thing. So, yeah, you do pull back, you do isolate, and that's a very, very common experience and I think, especially in grief. Grief serves up all of our like deepest fears and questions and stuff, and it's hard to know where we can go with those questions and feel safe. And so I think that people naturally want to isolate because you feel you're most vulnerable when you're grieving and so you're like you just get in kind of a protective mode.
Speaker 2:Well, what do you say to somebody that would say hey, just give it time, you're going to get over that. Do we really get over it, or do we simply work through?
Speaker 1:the process.
Speaker 1:We work through it. Just give it time is one of those myths around grief. We use the analogy like if you got a flat tire and you're on the side of the road and you need to fix it, you need to get to where you're going would you just give it time? Would you just sit there? No, you would do something, you would make a phone call, you would do something right. So time in some ways is arbitrary. It's what we do at the time. Time itself doesn't heal, but you have to do something with the time you have. And I think that's working through the grief.
Speaker 1:And I also think that it is very damaging to say to somebody just give it time, you'll move past it, you'll get over it. I don't ever want to get over my mom. I don't ever want to not miss her. I think it's part of my human experience to continue to miss her because I really loved her. That's the depth of my love for her. So I don't want to get over it. I don't want it to paralyze me. I don't want to become a victim to my grief. I don't want to become defined by my grief, but I want to always honor and love and cherish and my mom right, and so, yeah, you will never get over it.
Speaker 1:And I do agree that it's almost a little bit disrespectful to be like, oh yeah, you'll move past it. Like how can I move past? Like people who lose children, like how can they ever move past that? No, you can't. But you can work through it, you can process through it. You can have people come alongside you and love you through it and I think you can grow with the grief. You can grow through the grief. There's an analogy where people feel like grief does grow smaller over time, but I think your grief always stays about the same size, but you just learn to grow around it and grow with it and you gain resilience and you get stronger through it. So, ben, I agree with you completely and I beg anybody listening to be careful and to stop saying that phrase. Just give it time, because it's not actually true.
Speaker 2:What do you think that most people get wrong about leading through grief?
Speaker 1:I think that when people are leading through grief, I think they lead with their head and not their heart. So I think that it's okay to, because I think, again, society gives us this idea like okay again, I'm just gonna use deaf, because it's the most common example but like you have your funeral and then after the funeral, it's like all right, well, you've brewed it, like let's move on, da-da-da-da-da, but that's not how it works. We know that grief comes in waves and it's not a straight line. It's kind of like a bowl of spaghetti or something. It's like all mixed up with each other. And so I think one of the things that leaders can struggle with is feeling like I have to put up a wall, I have to put up a mask.
Speaker 1:In the grief recovery method, we call it Academy Award-winning grief Like you're just pretending, right, you're playing a part, and I think that that's a mistake, because I think true leaders lead through vulnerability. I think vulnerability is one of the greatest strengths of leadership, and so I just think being real with where you're at and being real with the people that you're leading and saying like, hey, you know what? I am still processing this. I might not be on my A game. I'm just gonna ask for grace, for compassion. I think it's never wrong when we actually show our humanity and wherever we get that from in society. That's the unhealthy thing. But the truth is we're all humans and so I think leading with your heart and not your head is so important. So everybody grieves a little bit differently, right? So not having the expectation of yourself that, like if my grief isn't crippled on the floor with crying and tears or whatever, I'm not really grieving. So I would say, strip away any of those expectations about what grief should be and look like and just grieve however you need to grieve, express your pain however you need to express it. I would say, have someone safe in your corners.
Speaker 1:When you're leading, you feel like you always have to be the one who is on and you always feel like you have to be the one who is strong. And again, that's another myth around grief, by the way, that you need to be the strong one. I would say, if you're leading through grief, be the weak one. Have a safe person that you can be the weak one with and be able to just share whatever's going through your head, so that you can have someone mirror back to you what's going on for you, for people who are leading through grief. I would encourage them and I do encourage all of my clients with this to double down on boundaries, double down on more margin, double down on more self-care.
Speaker 1:I understand that you can't stop. So, because you're going through something so painful, something so taxing, you need more breathing room. So you need boundaries, you need more margin, you need more self-care. So adding those things in, I think, is really gonna strengthen you as you lead. You have to just kind of be extra gentle, extra tender with yourself in these seasons of grief where you can't stop because you have to lead. But you also need to honor your pain, because if you don't and you're just shoving these things down, then that's when it starts to become toxic and it overflows in unhealthy ways, and so I think having more margin is essential for leaders who are still grieving.
Speaker 2:Is that the common experience for people? That it's not linear and it's really all over the place?
Speaker 1:It is messy, it's all over the place, it's like a squiggle on a piece of paper, right, it's like some days you're here, some days you're there. It's unpredictable and I think in that way grief is I love how CS Lewis says it that grief. No one ever told me that grief felt so like fear, and I think with fear it's that unpredictable feeling. I don't know what's gonna come next at me and I'm afraid, and there's all these emotions inside of me. And I think that grief is the same. Is that one day I feel like this and the next day I feel like that. You just feel subject to the tide, to the waves of grief and it will take you all over the place. And so, yeah, it is absolutely not linear. And again, I just wanna encourage listeners to remember that that nonlinear experience, that feeling of like you're on just the waves and you're being tossed about all of that is very normal and natural. All of that is part of the grieving process. So you're not weird or off the deep end. It's just how grief is.
Speaker 2:How have you seen grief manifest like fear with clients or even with the experience that you had in losing your mother?
Speaker 1:I think predominantly for my mom. I'll say this from my personal experience and I'll talk about some clients, but I think that brief for me felt like almost with a little bit of losing my mom. I felt like I lost a little bit of my identity. My mom and I were very close. She was my person and so and she always was kind of just that safe space for me to go to and for me to kind of figure out who I am, what am I doing? Okay, a sounding board for me. I was scared because I was like I don't know where to go. Who am I going to call? Where will I get that wisdom from? No one knows me as well as her. So I just kind of felt I think my fear came in because I felt unanchored, I felt unsafe. I kind of felt like I was drifting out there alone and I have fears of just kind of being forgotten or not being able to move forward. I think I was like people say the phrase new normal all the time. I don't really want to get into that for grievers, but I just think that I was afraid of the future because I was afraid like, what will my world and what will my life look like without this woman that has been such an anchor point for me throughout my entire life. That was terrifying for me. Who is Hannah without her bedrock person? Who is Hannah?
Speaker 1:In light of that, that caused a lot of fear for me. I would say with my clients. A lot of my clients have fear around forgetting their person or thing. So like, well, if I'm not always grieving, will I forget them? And they have fear around that Also, fear around really letting the grief in all the way. So if I really let myself feel this to the maximum extent, will I be able to recover? Will I really be able to come back from this? I think that grief also kind of feels like anxiety a lot of the time, like we just feel kind of sick to our stomach over some of these things. It just destabilizes you, you feel uncertain and I think that's again, too, where a lot of that, a lot of that fear, comes in. And so it's a very common experience, I think, for grievers to have that fear reaction or that anxiety reaction as they're processing what they've lost.
Speaker 2:What helped you, hannah, to process some of that fear in seeking healing, being vulnerable with what happened with your mom.
Speaker 1:Again, I cannot stress the importance of having safe people. So I definitely had people that I could lean on to say what I was really thinking and fearing, and having them mirror back to me Truth, I think my faith for sure was something that saw me through. We believe in a greater story, right? We believe that death doesn't have a final word, and so for me that was profoundly comforting that I would be able to see my mom again, and I just think I gave myself permission to not feel like I needed to grieve 100% of the time.
Speaker 1:You can't always be under the water because otherwise you'll drown, right, and so I didn't beat myself up if I wanted to laugh or if I wanted to have moments of levity, because it was important for me to not always wallow or just succumb to it and I allowed myself to be where I was in each and every moment, and I didn't put a lot of that expectation on myself.
Speaker 1:I really leaned into the gentleness and into the grace and into the margin and into those breathing spaces, and I really created that cocoon around myself and only let in people who would support that.
Speaker 1:So if you were not going to be supportive of me, just kind of being all over the place or wherever I was then sorry, we need to break from our friendship right now, because I really needed people who could let me express the fears, let me express the questions and have my moment, and then the next thing we could be doing is watching a movie and just kind of laughing about something. I think just giving myself permission, giving myself the freedom to just really ride the roller coaster for what it was, without judgment. We're so hard on ourselves, we judge ourselves so much, and I just think not leaning into the self-judgment was a huge part of me. Processing the fear and just saying, okay, this is what it is and I just need to feel it and it's not going to take me over for forever, and that was really empowering. I've had a lot of practice at that, though, so I know for some people that's not easy. So I'm not saying it's easy, but I know that it does help.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I recommend, when leaders need to have difficult conversations with the team, my recommendation is hey, just make it awkward. Make it awkward right off the bat and if you have to have a one-on-one with somebody, pull your team together. Just being able to say, which I think is freeing. I'm probably going to mess this up and I'm probably not going to do a good job communicating what I'm going to try to say to you right now, but I'm just going to put it out there. This is what's going on, or this is what I'm seeing, and I just wonder in the leadership space, if we sometimes, instead of just pretending that it's smooth and we have it all together, we just need to make it awkward in the right spaces and places and just say I've lost somebody and I don't know what to do with this. I'm being as intentional as I can, but some days I'm going to be myself as if nothing happened and some days you may feel like I'm a totally different person than I was a year ago.
Speaker 1:That's right. I love that and I think that's what I was trying to say with the vulnerability is that you're just saying that spade is a spade, right, you're just calling it for what it is Like. Look, I'm struggling today. Here's the thing. I'm going to mess this up. I might not say this, right, I'm still preoccupied with the loss of insert, whatever. I think that's right because to me it's just plain old human right. Like we're all in our stuff all the time and we want to pretend, when society encourages us to do this, to like, oh, I've got it all together, but really none of us have it all together ever. And I mean that was sometimes I do, but not usually. And so it's okay to be like, today I don't have it together because I'm really hurting still over this. So, yeah, I agree, and you just put it out there for what it is, and some people might not be okay with that, but I think, as long as you're honoring yourself, I think that's the right way to go. I love this notion of you've never been through it before.
Speaker 1:So every relationship we say in the Grief Recover method is unique. Every relationship is unique. You're right, my relationship with my brother. Losing my brother would not be the same reaction I have with my mom. It's not like I'm comparing them, that's another thing we talk about is grief is just grief across the board. There's no comparing, there's no minimizing. But every relationship is different and so every feeling and every process is different. So I'm one of five kids. We are not all grieving my mom in the same way because we didn't all have the same relationship with her. Like my oldest sister, my younger brother, we all had different relationships with my mom, so therefore we're going to grieve it differently.
Speaker 1:The healthiest approach, like you're saying, is just to set the expectation that like hey, I really don't know how this is going to pan out or show up for me. I'm just going to ask you to like some compassion towards me, have some grace for me that I may mess this up. That is not my intention, but by you putting it out there, I feel like you're also honoring the people that you're leading by saying like, hey, I am here and I'm kind of not here, but be patient with me when I would say, even for leaders, like, tell them what they can do to kind of help break through. When you feel like you're not on your A game. What do you want them to do? How do you want them to treat you, guide them, give them tools, equip them so they know.
Speaker 1:Like Ben, you said, when you're grieving and you're responding like this, that I could X, y and Z and be real with it. Like, don't tell them to do something you're going to be mad at right. Like, but be real with them about it. Like, what can they do to help access you, to still get the things done that they need to do, etc. But I agree, just put it out there, just be real. I think we need more of that in the world.
Speaker 2:You may have pivot opportunities three months, in six months, in nine months, in a year, in. What always makes sense to me is don't make any huge career and life decisions in the middle of deep grief.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Do not try to make big changes or transitions. I'll tell you that was not my personal experience, because I could not have that experience. So two months after my mom died, we were already in the process of selling our house and we had to move. And I looked at my husband and I was like there's no way I can pack a house, choose another house to move to all this other stuff that comes with moving. I mean, moving is stressful, right, and but we had to do it for our own personal circumstances and it was awful, ben, it was awful. And so my mom died. We had her funeral.
Speaker 1:A month later, we moved and I fell and sprained my ankle because I was so stressed I wasn't thinking clearly, and then I got really, really, really sick, like because it was just too much for my body to be going through with the grief and then the moving and all these changes. And so I would just really encourage people who are going through really deep pain again to it's almost like pull back and simplify, don't over, complicate, right, don't go. And then, okay, now I'm on a job search, I need to do a new quest. You're still in this very raw, especially in the first few months. You're in this very raw phase of grief. We're thinking like you said, and logic and things like that do not come as easily. So just be gentle with yourself. Pull I would say pull away from major decisions, not lean into them. It's just not the time to do that.
Speaker 2:Hannah for anybody who is listening to this episode and they really want to take an intentional step forward. What would you recommend that they do in the next 24 hours?
Speaker 1:I would encourage them to connect with a truly safe person. I just really think that I cannot underestimate that Just having a safe space to connect with, to share what's really going on in your head and heart, really share like, really lean in and share with them. I would also have them start to be aware of how they're coping. Sometimes our coping mechanisms for grief really exacerbates our pain. We think in the short term that it's helping us, but it's actually hindering us. Just being aware of their coping mechanisms, I think could be a really powerful and helpful thing. Again, I know I said it this whole time, but along just creating that self-care, creating those boundaries, I think that would be really good for them. If they're leading and they're grieving, I would encourage the same things. But if they're leading and they're not grieving, be that safe person for somebody else.
Speaker 1:Find ways to be the kind of person that people know they can come to if they are going through something hard. Find ways to be that person who people know won't judge them. I would say listen with love. I would say lead with your heart and not your head. Remember the truth that we're all grievers. We're all going to encounter grief in our life. How do you want to be treated when it's you going through those experiences? Take those in your community with the same love and care and respect, especially for the grieving person, though. Find somebody that you can talk to and share with them vulnerably, and get help. Even if it's me, I'm out here, I love you, I can support you too, but just find somebody that you can really share your burdens with, because it's really hard to share them alone.
Speaker 2:We are not going to solve anybody's grief in an episode. That's not the purpose of this conversation but I think it's just to talk out loud about some of the experiences that are wrapped up in this complexity of grief. It's not simple, it's not linear, it's messy. There are going to be moments when you lose yourself in the grieving process and you forget who you are. So I just want to encourage everybody to keep talking about this and to keep leaning into safe spaces and places. Take into somebody's life right now, who is going through an incredible amount of grief. What do you think they need to hear right now?
Speaker 1:I want you to know that you are cared for and that you are seen and that you are not alone in your pain. You are loved. I just want you to know that grief is hard and your grief is your own. That's okay and that's good and it's normal. And it's natural what you're going through. Don't give into what other people expect of you. You just process how you need to process. You feel what you need to feel. Let your grief happen. Grief is part of our human experience. I know that even Jesus experienced grief, meaning it is fully human and he was the fullest human. And so if even Jesus can experience grief, then we too can experience grief and know that it is okay, it's not wrong. I believe that grief, in the long run, can be good and can be beautiful, because it points us to the one who can fix it, and I truly believe that that's Jesus Christ. And so I would just say that you are loved, you are seen, it's okay for you to be going through what you're going through. You are not alone.
Speaker 2:God somehow always brings it around that when we make it through something, we are so well positioned to then help other people make it through what they are currently going through and just remind people that the story is not over. And it's a painful story, but the story is not over. As tough as this chapter may be, god is still writing more chapters in your story and the story is not done. As we finish up this episode, I just want to tell you that I'm sorry for what you have been through and who you have lost. I hope this episode has encouraged you in a small way. In the episode bio you can find contact information if you want to reach out to Hannah Wachter about grief support or grief coaching, and there will also be a list of resources for grief support and recovery. Make sure you screenshot this episode and share it with someone. Post it to your social media accounts. Don't forget to tag me so I can give you a repost.
Speaker 2:I know there is someone who you know who needs to hear this episode about leading while grieving. Thank you for sharing, subscribing and rating the podcast. Seriously, that means the world to me. Look for new episodes to release every month. You won't want to miss those. Thank you for taking the time to invest in yourself. You are worth it. Remember the best time to rise and lead is now.