Have you ever wondered how photographers tackle the daunting task of pricing, especially for massive jobs? We share unique techniques, emphasizing not quantity, but quality, and the significance of setting a day rate or a half-day rate. We also sheds light on the importance of shot lists or storyboard lists, the challenges of managing copyright issues, and the art of juggling quantity, quality, and costs with finesse. Experience the thrill of being in tight spaces like a veterinary hospital surgery room and how the need for flexibility is paramount.
This week's episode is sponsored by our friends at Retouch Up! Use the coupon code GYST10 for a special discount!
This episode was written and performed by Mary Fisk-Taylor and Kira Derryberry, produced by Kira Derryberry and edited by Joel North.
Have you ever wondered how photographers tackle the daunting task of pricing, especially for massive jobs? We share unique techniques, emphasizing not quantity, but quality, and the significance of setting a day rate or a half-day rate. We also sheds light on the importance of shot lists or storyboard lists, the challenges of managing copyright issues, and the art of juggling quantity, quality, and costs with finesse. Experience the thrill of being in tight spaces like a veterinary hospital surgery room and how the need for flexibility is paramount.
This week's episode is sponsored by our friends at Retouch Up! Use the coupon code GYST10 for a special discount!
This episode was written and performed by Mary Fisk-Taylor and Kira Derryberry, produced by Kira Derryberry and edited by Joel North.
This week's episode is brought to you by our friends at RetouchUp. Retouchup works smarter, not harder MUSIC. Welcome to Get your Shoot Together at the Photographers Podcast, where we discuss studio business life and keeping it all in line. I am Kira Dayberry and I'm Mary Fitz-Taylor. Did you forget who you are? I did for a moment. Yes, for one moment. Hi, um, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi. I needed to take a minute before we got on the podcast because I spent all day with dogs, all day with dogs and Mary.
Speaker 1:I took a job at a veterinary hospital and if listeners long-time listeners of these podcast know that that's probably the last job I should ever take. But I did and it wasn't so bad. I did it, I did, I was very brave. Yes, well, so we were going to, we were going to, we were going to podcast a little bit earlier and I get a text hey, this job running late, a few more, this job here at the veterinary office running late can be pushed back? And of course we can. But my point was I had to keep rereading that. I was like, did she say that? But she took a commercial job at a veterinary office. I mean what? What? Uh, yeah, well, you know it was because I have a great friend who's a videographer here in town, mike Copeland with Copeland Productions, and he and I go back and forth shooting things with each other and you know. So he had this client and he's done a lot of commercial work for them and he's like you know, we need headshots, and some candidates around the office and I was like, yeah, thanks for thinking of me, I can do that, I can do that. But I guess, when I said yes to the candidates around the office which, by the way, went fine, totally fine, great, even Okay, um it was, it was just uh, you know, it was like just jump in here, we're going to do some uh like action shots of surgery.
Speaker 1:And usually you know, my stuff is very staged. You know, like when I don't do commercial work, generally I'm doing stuff where we're pretending to look at an x-ray or we're pretending to talk with a client or we're pretending. You know what I mean. So that's a staged, staged, candid. Right, this was not staged, this was just candid and this was a full on dog surgery.
Speaker 1:This was a surgery of a dog. This is a real live like I had to. I have a. I had to wear a little surgery cap and a mask and, um, yeah, I, I, I now know what the inside of a dog leg looks like, mary, oh, I've seen the inside of a dog X-ray and I can't unsee it. X-ray, right, no, no, mary, no, I was in a surgery room with a live surgery of a beagle. So I have seen inside the beagle. So they were operating on his leg and the inside of his leg and hip and groin. Yes, I've seen in it.
Speaker 1:You know, they, they, they, they have to open it quite a bit, um, to get to whatever we're doing. Oh, my gosh, I don't know. Yeah, it was graphic, um, graphic, and so it was. What was great about it is Mike kept going, okay, so, you know, when we did video of the surgery, we just have to keep acting like the um, the surgery. We just have to keep acting like the surgery is, um, uh, you know, under their shoulder, like you don't want to show anything graphic, you know what I mean? Like, so, so don't like, show the dog and show the surgery, but don't show the open wound. You're like, don't show the grower, yeah, well, yeah, so don't show that. That's a. Don't show the stuff. That's kind of icky, right, yeah, but that's hard when, no, I know, three quarters of the dog is open, you know, like it's that's a lot of dog, it's. It's not a big dog, you know. So, um, because you're not big, okay, well, sir. So, first of all, it was the dog. Okay, how's the dog? I think the dog's fine.
Speaker 1:It looked like a leg surgery, uh, you know, uh, some of some kind, and honestly, I don't know if the dog's okay. I'm just telling you guys, the dog's okay, but it seemed it wasn't like, um, heart surgery, you know it was. It was like something in the leg surgery and, um, and it was in there, it just felt like I like I wasn't grossed out so much as I felt I was telling Misty a minute ago, I felt, um, like I should not be there. You know what I mean. Like I felt very inappropriate, very like not qualified to be in there, you know. And um, yeah, it's really truly you're not, I mean you know. I mean you're not. I mean you're, you know, because it's like you would either be the patient, which you would, and obviously as a veterinary clinic, if you're in a surgery, or, you know, you're the doctor or the nurse, yeah, yeah, or you're a support character in that and, um, yeah, I so. Are they videoing at the same time as well? So they already did the video.
Speaker 1:But Mike was there kind of as creative director, because this is, like I said, his client and I'm doing this for for his client, and so, um, I, uh, yeah, and Mike was there kind of just making sure, um, that I kind of got a well rounded, uh number of shots that match the video that he did, you know, and he was also, uh, gripping for me, so I had him carry my light around and put it around. So it was a good, it was a really, actually really great shoot and a really great partnership. I'm really grateful to have like a videographer friend and we call each other in for when our clients have that need, because it kind of makes us seem like, yeah, we're one stop shop. He doesn't do photography and you know, um, but, uh, but, and then when I need him for videography, he's just, it's just like a no brainer, you know. So we've passed clients back and forth and worked on projects and yeah, so, um, I never told Mike that I'm scared of dogs, because I just didn't want, yeah, I didn't tell him and so I just didn't want it to be a thing, and so I just um, and also all the dogs were restrained, like there were no dogs just roaming free in this.
Speaker 1:It was a very large animal hospital and all of them were linked up to a wall or whatever. So no dogs jumping on me or I didn't have to do anything that really interacted with it. But there was just one dog that was like this white wolf looking dog Look at the full on white wolf, with red eyes. Red eyes Did not have red eyes, kira, I promise you this dog, I think I think it was blind, but it had red eyeballs. Okay, not a joke, not a joke.
Speaker 1:But but, um, I had, uh, I had my uh light and we were leaving and he goes, we'll just scoot on, scoot by this dog and I looked at it with its red eyes. I said no, I don't, I can't do that. I said I can't do that, like because, oh, okay, and then somebody came and like moved the dog sort of out of the way and then we walked by and we got up the stairs. I was like, yeah, I've really done, I've just really held it together, but I couldn't walk past that one dog like that, not that one Right Like, not with a red eye, right, well, because I've been around you and I've seen you and even Lucy around dogs and it's like you know, um, rupert never bothered you, but Rupert was a three pound little tiny doxin that was, you know what I mean, or Waffles was at your house or whatever.
Speaker 1:But but I mean I get it. I mean there are some dogs that just they're just not as inviting looking, right? No, well, if, when the white wolf looking dog with bright red eyes which I'm still not believing but that would be scary, wolf looking wolf, sized larger than a wolf, larger than a wolf, these are, it's the red eyes I'm questioning, to be honest with you. There was also they is it a mastiff? That's the enormous one. Well, mastiff, there was a mastiff with like a cast on its leg, and so all of the dogs there that's the other thing is, all of them were fairly injured If they were there, like they were all like in a cast or the cone, or they're just looking at you like I'm pitiful, like. So it was kind of hard to be fearful of all of the injured dogs because they were pretty put out for you know.
Speaker 1:But I said, well, we didn't get any cats, like should we, all of the shots, have dogs in them? And I was like we didn't get any cats and they were like it's fine, cats are really unpredictable, they don't cooperate, and where's the lie in that statement? Well, and they also said that if a cat is here, it means that they're really not well, so they probably don't look like photographable. Well, you understand that, I do. I was like, yeah, that's kind of true. Like if your cat is at the vet for like a hospital stay, it's probably really ill. Yeah, you understand that very well, unfortunately all too well. Well, that's interesting. I like that.
Speaker 1:I think it's worth talking a little bit. I mean, having that partnership with that other, with that videographer, is really smart, like I think I mentioned to you earlier. Well, I know, I did. We talked about. You know, I think sometimes in a more, I don't know, do you think more and more, if you're getting maybe it's just the larger commercial jobs, are they looking for both and not just one or the other? That's been happening a lot lately.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm doing a job tomorrow where they asked for drone video clips, drone video clips where it's in a forest. You know this job I have to go photograph like forestry people and we're doing stills. But then they said could you do drone or is drone available? And I said yes, because I have a partner, steve Satio, who does drone work, you know. And so I just say yes now, because I have a guy you know that I contract with Same thing with video. Do you do video? Yeah, we've got a guy you know, and. But it's kind of like making me not just like a peer but just a better problem solver, because nobody wants to have to go to 100 different places to get all the things they need. You know what I mean. I actually have more questions, so let's take a break because, yeah, let's do it. I definitely have more questions about this.
Speaker 1:Take a break, pause for the cause and we will be right back. Hey, you is it 2 am and you're still up retouching that one-year-old's cake smash session, because there's just not enough hours to get it all done. Stop what you're doing right now and upload that session to retouch up. Never tried retouch up? No problem. Sign up for a free account at retouchupcom and use the referral code GYST to tell them you're one of our loyal listeners. With retouch up, there are no contracts, no minimums, no complications and nothing to lose. For a limited time, all listeners of this podcast can save $10 with the coupon code GISTFALL10. That's G-Y-S-T-F-A-L-L-1-0 for all customers. That's enough to retouch like four headshots or get five extractions, or remove all the leaves out of the pool and the cards out of the parking lot on that real estate shot you just took. Get your life back with retouchup at retouchupcom. And we are back.
Speaker 1:All right, what are your questions? Okay, so, because this is not my world, right, guys? I mean I, I spent the week this past weekend at our Virginia Fall event and I spent a lot of time with commercial photographers. So there was a lot of conversations about commercial work, one of which our good friend, colby Macklemore. You know Colby from the Knoxville area. He is a new Virginia member because his nephew lives in Virginia and him being right over in Knoxville. We're up in the Blue Ridge area, so it's actually pretty close. Anyway, we talked a lot about commercial work and I was asking this question of him.
Speaker 1:So I'm hearing more and more that people these larger bids, they're coming in and they kind of want it all. But when you do that, do you just do you so, you, so you call, you call Steve and say how much would it cost for you to do X, y and Z, and then you just roll that into your proposal. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's that's how I go about it, rather than going. I don't do that, but my friend Steve does that. Let me give you his number, right, because that's more work for them to do. I'll I'll say you know, now it's not me doing the drone work, but I do have a person that I contract with to do that, and let me get with him and let him know the scope of what you're looking for, and I'll I'll add that into the quote. And so that's how I handle the client when they ask that question. And then I ask the that I asked Steve, like a go, this is what they're looking for, this is how much they need, what would you? You know, what are you gonna charge me for? That? You know, and he'll let me know what he's gonna charge me for that, and then I'll add that into our quote. Does that make sense? Yeah, that answers my question.
Speaker 1:I I just wasn't really sure, like, and I guess it's because right now, of all things like I have a huge bit that I'm working on and they definitely it's definitely gonna involve video drone as well as stills. Right Now we can you know Jamie's FAA we could do the drone work. That's not a big deal. We could actually do the video work Like we can do it. We have the equipment, we have the mics, we have the, we even have the. What are the other things? You could, the teleprompters. We have all the stuff. It's the editing. Yeah, I don't know that I want to take it on.
Speaker 1:So part of me is like, should we just outsource that piece? And then this sounds terrible. But if you outsource that piece, do you mark it up? Some Do you? Because you're taking the liability? Yeah, I'm taking the liability. I do mark it up a little bit.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it kind of depends on what the job is, and there's even been times where a job ran longer because I consider Steve working for me in that, you know. So there have been times where the job was more than we thought it was going to be and I will, I will give, I will pay Steve more, like he won't invoice me more, but I will give him. You know what I mean, because it was more than we thought it was going to be. But yeah, I mean it's, it's.
Speaker 1:I just treat it like it's part of my cost of goods and you usually would mark up the cost of goods. Now, if, if, what he's he's not giving me, I hope anyway he's not giving me a discount, it's what he would. He tells me what I normally charge is this. That's usually what he says, right, and so he would be getting it for me or directly from the client. Is is in his mind, right? So if it's the going in my mind, if it's marked up enough you know what I mean already I'll just pass that money right on to him. You know, especially since I'm not doing much of the work in that, in that space. But he and I usually are working kind of together at it, you know out of things. So we're kind of helping each other out the whole time.
Speaker 1:But like today when I was working for Mike in this case, right, yeah, it's the opposite today, right, you told Mike this is what I would charge to do this job, and then he negotiated but he's going to pay you X, y, z as a Independent contact, or essentially. Yeah, so I'm, I'm even, he's the point of contact like I'm. Even that's, I'm giving him the proofs to send out proof he's gonna send me back the choices. Because that's it's confusing for a client. It is got multiple sections sending in stuff to the one point person. It always works best if there's a point person on the client side at a point person on on the photo or video site. So when I'm working with a team, depending on who is working for who, that's the point person you know.
Speaker 1:So when Mike asked me for my rate, he goes uh, it's gonna be, I think, a bunch of stage candidates and at least 10 doctor headshots and we're gonna try and get them all done on the same day. What would you charge me for that? So I wrote Mike at Copeland Productions a quote for that right and then I don't know if Mike marked it up and I don't care, you know I mean, oh, that's on you. Like you charge what you need to charge and like you said, you don't want, you don't want anybody to discount for you and you're not gonna discount for anybody else. I mean that's, that's a no-brainer right. Like that that makes complete sense. Okay, that makes sense to me. And I mean I, I've done jobs, smaller jobs before this.
Speaker 1:This job that I've I've worked on this quote it's so huge that it's just it's overwhelming to me and it made me just start and because I did spend this weekend with a lot of commercial photographers and Having a lot of these conversations, it just made me kind of, really kind of wonder am I doing this right? And you know Cuz I, I have to fully admit and I will be honest, I was talking to Colby and he was breaking down and and I did reach out to like my you know, I reached out to a couple friends when I was trying to think how to quote this job out because it's it's very outside of my, my comfort zone, quite frankly, not the work, but you know, I still come at it not from a portrait perspective but almost from a wedding photographer perspective. I'm coming out of it like for a day rate you know what I mean or a half the rate, and they're like well, you can add this and you can add that and you can add this, and it's just that Overwhelms me, kara, and maybe I'm leaving money on the table, but one of the things I pitched to this company and I think the reason that they're down to me and one of their company Is because my whole thing was look, this is turnkey, like there's no, I'm I understand that up. I'm gonna be very upfront with my pricing. There's gonna be no additional Editing charges or this or that. That's you know this many hours.
Speaker 1:This, this, you're giving me the shot list. Work, the shot list. I know what you want, but I don't. You know, like, like, you can charge for equipment rentals and you can charge for this and you can and I don't. That Just starts to wear on like I just I don't know.
Speaker 1:Is that how you do it, though? You mean by like lion iteming to death? You know? Yeah, no, I mean, I there are. You know, actually, mike was asking me to this today. He's like, you know, your, your pricing is very different than the way we price things. It's usually by a day rate or a half day rate. We usually don't line item things like you do.
Speaker 1:I do line item by the image for smaller my commercial jobs are generally fairly small. It's it's not the kind of job that you're pitching right now, you know. So I think for a large job, like an all-encompassing job, you know you can be all-inclusive to a degree, and so I think you're doing the right thing by trying to not nickel and dime them to death, because I think that might get overwhelming, you know. Yeah, but in my case, you know, I tend to charge by the, by the image, and not by the half day or the full day, because I Find that when I say it's all-inclusive they go well, let me just come over here and have you shoot, like, well, let's get headshots in the courtyard to.
Speaker 1:I know we said we were just gonna do headshots up here, but let's, you know, and it we'd start to try and the the quality lessons because of the quantity. Does that you know? Yes, it does, and that is something I am. So I would, I very much said. So we're storyboarding this out, obviously, because, because of the video, there's some interview parts, there's headshot parts, there's all these things, and like there is gonna be one or two days that we're just coming in and setting up and doing headshots, versus there's probably six days that will be in the factory Photographing sets, and I flat out said I can only do four setups a day and it's because I'm photographing heavy machine work, machine tools that are that are doing their job. So it's all the. Everything is metallic and in welding and specular, so Setting up to light and video, that I can't do more than four. No, I Know not if you want it lit correctly and not.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, and that's that's the importance of a shot list or a storyboard list, like when I, when I was talking to Mike, I was like, do we have a shot list yet? And it's because I want everybody to be on the same page about what's been agreed upon, not just yes, not just look, hey, just pop over here and get this. You know we decided to do this group photo outside. Well, it's not on the shot list, you know, and we've we've carved out time today to be on the right. It happened a little bit today because it was the chaos and all the doctors are working, there's pets everywhere there's, you know, and that is kind of the chaos of this kind of shoot when you're nobody's off.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Like it's yeah, so, and a lot of them kind of it felt a little like they got tricked into doing it, like they were not fully aware that today was photo day and so they were kind of mad at the same time. You know, not, okay, yeah, I know what you mean, someone else, but my coast is, yeah, no, I get it. So, like, really, this I have to save this dog's life and I have to worry about, and you're gonna be in here, great, awesome. So you know, we felt a little in the way and but there was a couple of times where they go Well, let's just pop, let's. Could y'all pop over here and get this? We did it like once. Yeah, I can't do that, I hate it, but we did it like once and it was okay, it was, it was fine, it was for the owner. You know, it wasn't just some random person, yeah, but it was. It was fine. But the the quality of everything else I did feel was was very good, because we did have pretty strictly aligned. It was.
Speaker 1:I just wish the subjects were more informed that they were going to be in them. You know, yeah, yeah, well, no, I mean, you know I actually this is funny to bring this up. So, and maybe I'm I know I will fully admit I am like way too, I need to probably be more flexible and I'm not as bad as Jamie Hayes, as you know, but if you tell me I'm gonna photograph this machine doing this. I Am gonna light for that. And no, we can't just pivot mid Because I mean, it's all. There's so much glass and glare, you know. You know, I want it to be perfect. Now I could roll in there with my camera and just HDR it to death Mm-hmm and fix it all in post and I have a feeling the other quote they get. Well, that's how it'll come in and that is a different style, but it's I just I can't do that. Like, that's just not, it's not in my. I can't make. I could listen and I guess, if you you know you threatened to me, I guess I could, but I'm not inclined to want to do that type of work, right? Yeah, and it was, it was hard.
Speaker 1:Today I went off tripod for most of the shoot, not the headshots, okay, yeah, but I went off tripod for most of the shoot because it was, we were in tight spaces and we were yeah, I did, I know having to be very, very no, and having to move very fast and at some point it just became it was just slowing me down and yeah, but it was like it was. I just I felt like a little too loose, like a lot. You know what I mean like I, and maybe that's good for every once in a While. You know what I mean. It is. It is because it is, and I mean it's kind of like wedding candles I don't shoot wedding candles on a tripod. I mean, I certainly am capable of not using a tripod. I Don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Okay, pardon me, I was having this conversation, you know, last night with their own. I'm like I don't know, maybe I'm just I'm not sitting comfortably in this space trying to work on this bed and the thing is is that we did a small job for their marketing team a couple months ago. It was a great job, it was a little, it was a full day and they just fell in love with us. And Now they want to do this huge rollout with that. They've hired a marketing firm. They wanted this huge rollout. Now, of course, their marketing forum wants them to use their people right. So you know, we'll see.
Speaker 1:But it's been very eye-opening Working on this contract, that I'm thinking of all my friends who really fully do this all the time and I mean I felt sick to my stomach, like I was like what is? How do people like my worth is just at us, just as such a place that I'm thinking how in the world can I put these numbers on paper? But it's the numbers I've always used, because I just have come at it from that half day, full day rate or or you know that shot using a shot list or head shot list or whatever. It is. Sorry, guys, I met on my office and so is my grand dog. But you come at it and it's like you start adding this together and I'm thinking, do these people have a clue?
Speaker 1:This is gonna look like yeah, and then it's kind of like you, you have to kind of decide like what's the lesser of the two evils? Right, like if I, if I quote it as a mass, like here's two days, three days of shooting, and it's gonna be this much per day, plus travel or plus hotel, like because I've got a job in Orlando right now that I'm that I've quoted plus travel at the mileage, you have to the mileage rate. You know the standard mileage rate for 2023. And then I and I've quoted it for two nights hotel as well, you know, and like at $200 a night or something you know, and so that's included. But, trust me, I have been. This is all I've heard all day long. I you've heard dog, you've heard barking out, you're just feel like you're right back at work today. Yeah, just add the smell of the clinic and that's a rough smell, but you know, it's just like you know, it's just like you.
Speaker 1:If I quoted this one way for day rates plus my travel, they might be a little more free to add things. Well, can we have two headshots per person? Can we have them in two different locations? Well, can we have? We also decided that maybe it would be great to get some shots of the building while you're here, that whole while you're here, when you're there, while you're here, could you, you know? So, okay, yeah, so that's why you don't like to do the day rate. That makes sense to me. That makes sense to me.
Speaker 1:So my thought was okay, that's a great point, and so I may not be doing this right. So my, I had gone into it with this mindset, so help me out. So I definitely am saying this is my day rate and I have to give them a day rate for the video and the stills, right? So there's, that's the day rate, but my estimate, not my proposal. My estimate to them is look, you have 65 red line shots. That's 65 you definitely want, plus the video, plus. So I can do four of this type of shot a day. I can do the head shots. I storyboarded it out and I said this is a 10 day job. I can guarantee these shots, and I listed all 65. I listed all the video. This is what I'm guaranteeing you, that I can do and deliver in 10 days. Just this, at this amount. Yes, yeah, so I might, I might be double. I guess I'm doubling up. I'm telling them it's a day rate, but I'm telling them I can only do this.
Speaker 1:Well, in your contract maybe it's to include and you put out the scenes, like these scenes, this collective of head shots, this one, you know, one per person or whatever it is, and all you know, really itemize it and put it in the contract so that once you're there, they go hey, we, we had this idea. You know my aunt Judy's in town and she does a lot To a family picture. It's to a family portrait of aunt Judy. In fact, her, her family really built this business and it would mean a lot to Judy if we got a picture of her next to the front. The sign in full sign. Yeah, you know, I mean like, yeah, no, I mean don't. I mean don't laugh, right, it definitely could happen.
Speaker 1:So but if I, if I put it all in the contract that it's this, then I kind of have to. I can say, well, we can add an additional day, right, I mean, that's what I'd always have to say yeah, we can fit this much in all the stuff that we've already agreed to. We can fit into this time span and that's what we've quoted for. So you'll get everything that we shoot from this, from these outline things. But if you're trying to add a scene, I think that's we should at least add another half day. You know, or I could say, or what would you like to remove, or what would you like to remove? Yeah, is there anything? That's more, is this more important than this? Did something that's on here that we need to take off? Or would you like to add more time? Right, that's all I could really say, right, but then you also here's my question for you when you're doing a day rate, when you're doing a day rate, are you doing it like? What are your deliverables? Are you just giving them everything, or is it a cold set of images? Are they all retouched or are they just like? What are you giving them? Well, it depends on the.
Speaker 1:Now, like, we did a job a couple of weeks ago and they just wanted all the files. Nope, yeah, we had it. So it's an all the files situation. We acquired that, yeah, but not this job. This job is I've listed every shot they're gonna get. So they're not getting all the files, they're gonna get finished files.
Speaker 1:Now, granted, there are some headshots in there. So in that 65, there's about, I don't know, maybe 12 or 15 headshots. Okay, so take those out of the mix, but it's, you know, this machine milling this part. That's a shot. So if I have to stack it, if I have to, however, I have to produce it it'll be delivered to them finished. They're not gonna get 20 of that shot, they're gonna get one perfect shot.
Speaker 1:And I do guarantee, look, if you all aren't happy, like every like we do that hotel right, every once in a while, jennifer will come back and she'll say yeah, you know what? The windows are too hot, I want the bring the shears down a little bit. Or we didn't realize that that lampshade was crooked, I'll fix it. I'll do anything in posts like that and no additional charge, cause I have a. I'm on retainer with them, so it's a little bit different. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, retainer's a whole other. Yeah, that's a whole other conversation. I mean, part of me is like I should just stick in my lane.
Speaker 1:But the problem with this company not the problem this is a great company, but one of the issues we have in Richmond is I just don't know where the commercial photographers went. We used to have a lot, because Martin agency is here and I think what happened is when Martin agency and some of the other bigger ad agencies took everything, brought everything in house, that a lot of the commercial guys who had huge warehouses and they could photograph cars and boats in their, their studios. They're gone, they're not here anymore. Well, you know because, and also people don't want to pay. They want just, they want the rights to the images. They don't want to pay. You know a lot of commercial photographers.
Speaker 1:In my understanding and I know this from when I tested on Capitol Hill and I know you did the same thing that part of the problem is that that companies aren't going to sign contracts anywhere where you're getting residuals off the images. Nobody will. I mean, I am, I'm really I that that's just not something that people and more and more I'm getting companies, the national clients that I have right now they're coming at me with we want the copyrights, and they're saying it like that. And then I come back to them and say, I, you know, I have limited, limited release copyright. I mean, I have copyright, but limited release usage, and, and usually we can come to an agreement about, like, what that means. You know, yeah, that's an ignorance in somebody in their department.
Speaker 1:Well, I, I work, I think, do you do what I have? Like men's, I don't do. I do Publix, publix, okay, so it's an. You know, that's what they came in and I said, no, you can't, here's the federal, you know, here's the federal guidelines. I can't, this is a law, you know, and this is what I can do. Oh, okay, that's what we meant. Well, yeah, sometimes they just meant we want to be able to, we want the permission to use them, and that's what they're asking for with copyright. But they don't actually know. So, you know they, you're exactly right, it's totally fine.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so you're talking about your, your big job, which is, like you've said, is not super typical. This is a big. This is a big one, right? One of the reasons that I don't day rate as well and I would consider it on the job that you're doing, by the way, if it were mine. Oh, okay, so, because it would be almost impossible to do.
Speaker 1:To price it the way I price the way I price most of these jobs that are smaller, they'll say, well, we want some stage candidates around the office, but some usually means 10, five to 10, you know what I mean, and so I can be there all day on a day rate shooting and they're going to end up only using 10 images. Yeah, and that's what I'm not going to be okay with as a matter of fact. That's why my estimate that I'm putting out on 100% has every shot that I'm guaranteed yes, like, I'm listing all 65 of them plus every video vignette, because I need to be very clear that. Oh well, since you're here now, the cool thing is is I already know these people, I have a decent relationship and these are all fact. These are blue collar workers Like this is a. They do not, they don't want to be doing this anymore. No, no, no, that's generally how it works. They just understand it needs to get done, and they really are. They're kind of funny because they're like we had no idea how much this rollout was going to be, but since we're all in and it's costing so much, we want the best and we think you guys are amazing. So there's so many great things and I think we have a decent shot at it.
Speaker 1:I just I don't know. I'm feeling very obviously. I'm feeling ever well, well, it's because it's out of your comfort zone. It's not the norm that you normally quote and you normally quote things more like based on the, based on the post. You know what I mean Like I mean that's if you're coming out of commercial land.
Speaker 1:I've tried to treat because I do both portrait, family portrait work and commercial work. I have to kind of price them where they make sense together. If somebody were to look at it, you know what I mean. Like if I had a client that was on the commercial side that became a family portrait A hundred percent. So you know that helps me when I itemize things. It does help me on the commercial end because I show them proofs, the commercial jobs like this. I'll put some watermarked proofs up that are not fully retouched. They also let what they want and their bill goes up from there based on what it is they want, because they know how much each image is going to cost. So it's really just a matter of how many they want to buy, and I know that they're minimum five. You know what I mean. So that's, that's not going to go.
Speaker 1:That's an hour of work for me versus eight hours. Six to eight hours of work for me for them to have the same amount. That's that's for these smaller I call them smaller jobs Me. Even the job I did today was longer because we were doing both headshots and those stage candidates and because I was working with a partner who had all the stuff. You know.
Speaker 1:I have managed to condense the amount of time I'm gone, usually by itemizing, if that makes sense, because if you promise four hours, you're there for four hours and you might've got done in two hours. But you know like that's the hourly thing always gets me because they're like well, you said I mean we're paying you for eight hours of work, so what do you always? You're already done. It doesn't pay to get done more efficiently or earlier than on time. You know when you-, no, that's true and I worry about that and that's why I never put times in my sessions. Like I don't understand people like you get a two hour session. What if it takes me an hour and 15 minutes? I mean because then people feel slighted. So that's a really good point. So I don't know, well, it's not like wedding coverage, you know what I mean? No, it's not.
Speaker 1:I think that the client is almost trained to think. The commercial client sometimes thinks of it like a wedding because that's their only other big experience with a lot of photography, and so they might say well, we want you to. How much is it for two hours of your time to come out In their mind? And we'll just see how much we can cram in there in two hours, you know, and at a wedding it's always gonna be longer than two hours. So, like, I just need two hours of coverage, you know. And our birthday party I get a lot of inquiries for birthday. For two hours of birthday party coverage, how much would you do? Well, I don't do that, but you know so I never hourly anything in my world just because there's.
Speaker 1:I just feel like there's too many times for me to get you know that to bite me in the butt, you know, because I don't want to be, I want to be efficient and I want to get done quickly and I want to get out of there so they can get back to their lives. The business people, the veterinary office, half of the people we photographed today were just kind of like, really, okay, you know, yeah, no, it's kind of like teachers, like you know, and I know you don't do it, but you know those of us who help out, or you know volume. It's like the teachers on picture, you know. I mean, all you're doing is disrupting their whole day. You know what I mean and I get it and that's why you try to be fast and efficient and quick and get in and out. I don't know, I guys stay tuned.
Speaker 1:I guess I need to give this a little more thought. I do appreciate that point, but I guess I guess for me I look it is a very nailed down, very specific shot list, so I know how long it's gonna take me to do it. Why don't you do it? It's just gonna do it. Well, here's an idea. It's still a day rate. It's still a day rate, but let's not specify hours.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's say day one includes these pieces. This is what we'll complete in day one. We're gonna complete these three, four things Day two. We're gonna do these four things day three and so on. And you can still itemize it by the day if you want to, but don't say six to eight hours or don't say eight. Don't paint yourself in a corner here. If you finish the first four things that you promised on that day and if there's time and you wanna try and fit the other thing in, okay, but at least you can call it a day and rest, because the longer you're shooting, the less, like you know, the less. Yeah, it's energy, I mean, because my day's not eight hours. I mean my day is. I count my day rate from leaving my studio back to my studio, so it's usually six hours on site or three hours on site for half day. Right, right or wrong. That's just how I choose to, but I like that, kira. So I think you're right If I just storyboarded it out from the beginning and included that part of my estimate and just called it a day.
Speaker 1:Day one is this, day two is this, and I do think I need to be very specific because of the fact that there's very specific people that need to be on deck, depending on what we're photographing. So it has to be very planned, like it can't just be Willie Nilly like who showed up and oh, we'll go do this. It has to be incredibly synchronized and I don't think you can do it itemized the way I'm doing it, for the volume that you're it's, you know, for the amount of days that you're doing it. I think you're doing it right. I think you just need to remove the hour, the amount, what is a day? You know what I mean? Yeah, that's true, let's not define a day. Let's just say this day one, we're doing this Day two, we're doing this, you know. And then itemize the days by cost per day. But don't make, don't, don't tell them how much your day is. Tell how long your day. Okay, yeah, okay, I like that. All right, I'm going to work on that. I'm going to go back to the.
Speaker 1:Well, I wasn't done. I worked on it, worked on it and I kind of got tired. I told Kira I am guys, they're right here, kira, I have stumbled myself into Trader Joe's trying to get something for our hospitality for this past weekend and I love the cannoli dip that comes out this time. So if you ever had this, it'll change your life. I feel like it could possibly change your life. But I picked up a box of ginger, of little gingerbread people from Trader Joe's to dip and said cannoli, dip, I ate the whole box of ginger people, the gingerbread people, ginger people People's like. And I told Kira that when I realized the serving size on this and the amount of calories I ate, that I couldn't eat for the rest of November. Just just, I don't want to know the calories, but tell me what the serving size is. Four cookies, oh no, I saw the size of the box. It's terrible, kira. There's 14 servings in here. Oh dear, oh, my God. Anyway, we're all doing our best. Gingerbread people I know I was eating them while I was working on that proposal, but gingerbread people from Trader Joe's highly, highly recommend. But this brings me to another point. So today, because this was we did a marketing panel this weekend.
Speaker 1:I love to get questions from a group of roomful photographers, it's always so interesting. But so today did you do some social media stuff so that you could post this exciting job? Yeah, listen, I did take some photos of me and Mike, like selfies, you know. Okay, because we had our little hospital masks and like hair darts on. So I did that, but I haven't posted them because when was I gonna post them? I've been running and got in, I'm so.
Speaker 1:Do you look? I mean I look pale, like I. That's the thing. Lately Somebody said to me you know, oh, how have you been doing? I haven't seen you're not really posting anything and I'm just like because I'm too busy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's that catch 22,. Right, because you're supposed to post. So people know you're busy and what you're doing. But if you're busy, do you have time to post? I don't know. Here's the thing. I have so many things booked right now commercially. People must not care that I don't quote look busy, because that's obviously not the issue. It's not causing me not to book stuff, you know so and that, but that you know that came from doing a lot of social media in the past. You know I mean to get my, get my name out there or whatever, but I'm to a place where look my name's out there, it's there, in fact it's. It may be too much and and so me not posting on social media isn't deterring any booking, because I'm booking, you know. So it's like I'm losing the motivation to do it, because it's just like it's an afterthought for me always, you know. But well, that bites you in the long run. See, there's that catch 22 is you did such a great job, great job, and then. So you stop for a while because you're too busy and then all of a sudden you're like wait a minute, I'm not busy, it's too late. Like you can't play catch up, I know, because it takes that momentum, takes a long time to build, right, like it's not easy to build that momentum.
Speaker 1:What about for your failing portrait business if you're not posting commercial work because you don't need commercial work? What about family portrait work? The family portrait work? Well, here's the thing is it's very, it's become very seasonal. I get a lot right now and then I have a lot, you know, it's kind of intermittent throughout the other months of the year, right and so. But if it's for a holiday I can't post anything until we're done, you know, and tells it into the season.
Speaker 1:And then that's kind of, what about last years? Yeah, I could put, yeah, I could post last year's. I don't know what's wrong. I've already given them out, they've already put, their cards are gone, they're they given gifts to their family. But I mean, you can be like doing. You know throwback. Thursdays are talking about like, oh my gosh, I love you know, creating it. They don't know that it wasn't done last week. I mean the client does, but I mean, I Mean, I breathe, I post things from months ago because I just have it in my phone. I'm like, oh, I need to post, and you know, so I don't know why you would not be able to post last year's amazing, I think. I know Because, well, and that's, that's something I could do, I could be doing.
Speaker 1:But you know, I also I started to do a thing that with the intention of continuing it, because because of this problem, like with the commercial work, you know, the like spotlight on a project. So like I did a spotlight on capital city bank, or we did this like thing for the Chamber of Commerce Convention that they had, and so you know, what I had planned on doing was, you know, doing an Instagram post that spotlighted it, but then doing a blog post that actually showed it in action. So like the, the cutting, or getting some photos from them, from the event, of the cutouts they did and all the marketing pieces, I'm doing it. So you know, it's one of those things where that's okay, you still can, I still can. That's, that's a good one. That can be retroactive, right, we can spotlight a project anytime. So when I'm done with this project with Copeland Productions, I can spotlight the work that we did with Copeland Productions, and yeah, so that's my question. So, because I very rarely, very rarely to ever, will post in the moment for my student, not not personally, but in the moment for my studio, I will get the images and I will hopefully get around to posting it At some point, but it could take me weeks, it could take me months before I get around to posting.
Speaker 1:It is that bad, I mean, does it have to be what you're doing right at that moment? No, it doesn't, and I guess I need to. I used to think that it had to be, you know. So people, yeah, that's what I was doing right now, you know, but it doesn't have to be. It can totally be a Like. Here's a bunch of stuff we did last month, you know, and I did that one when there was a really busy headshot month. I had this this year and I just took all of the images I shot and put it into a reel. I was like here's. I think I remember that every headshot I did. That's a major trend right now. I'm seeing with people. They're like just doing like a November dump or an October dump or whatever, and they're just putting a whole little reel.
Speaker 1:But the way that you can be purposed it is you can do October, you know, you know, october, october photo images, whatever you want to call it, and then you can do a slideshow, you can do a reel, you can do it like, you can use it and you can post it several times in different, in different ways. Uh-huh type of thing, yeah, but it doesn't have to be what's going on right now. It could be what you did a whole last month and, and the cool thing about something like that if you work on it from that perspective, then you're gonna have more finished products that you can put with the content, which I think is always important. And you can just sit down one desk day and say, okay, I'm knocking out my all my social media For November, right, and it's all stuff from October.
Speaker 1:I don't know what's a desk day, mary, I know, I know I'm good at my, I am, I am. I'm not as busy as you are, though. So, um, I'm not as busy. Yeah well, I'm a softy, you know. I mean, like you know, client called while I was at a executive board meeting on Monday, kept calling, kept calling and I called them back and they were like we have this emergency, we really need a headshot for our new, you know, ceo or whatever you know.
Speaker 1:And is there any way you get them in this week? And it's like, yeah, if they come at 10 today, like on today, on Wednesday, I can get them at 10 at Wednesday, even though you know I have to pack up and go to this job at 11, you know, but I get them in and I do it. And then I make the silly promise of, yeah, I can get it back to you today, so when we get off this, I'm gonna get that done. Yeah, I know. I mean, I mean yes, I'm yes, always, I'm a yes, just I know. Look at, look at your face. Yeah, y'all can't say no, I get it. I mean, and if it's a big corporate climbing, we would do, if there's, if Jennifer from they called and said, can you be like we do everything in our power to take care of it, because that's the way it works, right, I mean, they take care of us, we take care of them. I mean, I get it, I absolutely get that.
Speaker 1:It's the turning it around a one-day piece, that's one headshot, you know, and I sent it off to retouch up actually before I left for the job, okay, and so I've got a. I gotta do a couple things to it, but that's it and all right. Well, that's gonna be like I wasn't a complete moron. No, well, you, of course you're not. Of course you're not. Hey, and I know we're gonna wrap up here quickly, but yeah, I don't know, I don't have any good answers for, quite quite frankly, anything today. But, um, I appreciate the, the input on the, the commercial quote. I'm gonna work on that.
Speaker 1:I also feel like we need to give ourselves a little bit of credit on the social media. I think that I had my head in the same space. Oh, it has to be posted now and yeah, I don't think it does. I mean, if you only post one of the things I remember when I was really studying social media it's a consistency. So if you only post once a week, just be consistent, or if you twice a week or whatever it is, you don't have to post every day, and so I think we have to get away from that thought. It's just if you, having the content, that's important.
Speaker 1:I forget to take the content is what happens to me. I forget to take pictures of what I'm doing. I mostly do too, but it was too funny to be in the vet's office with the With the hats on. I'll send it to you. Yeah, you and anyone the vet's office. I mean I literally had to why I was like Wiping my eyes when I was reading your text.
Speaker 1:I just have to go back, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, no, you have to go back what? No, I have to go back to something that I know I harp on a lot. But, guys, if nothing has proven to me a couple things that I'm just hard and fast. I mean, somebody asked me this weekend on when I was on the marketing table, like, well, why do you feel like you know you, your studio has got been profitable or successful and I have to keep going back to? It's just these three very, very incredibly basic things that I I tend to Get defeated by sometimes, like that's not enough. But y'all, if not, if the past couple sales sessions I've had, or portrait sessions, sales sessions I've had the past like six weeks or not, a thing I don't know what is, but knowing my client, just really having that ideal client nailed down, knowing exactly what I want to sell and Asking for the business, yeah, I, I've had, probably I think, five sales in the past six weeks that were bigger sales and I I've had, not ever, but not the biggest, but some of the biggest sales I've ever had, and every one of them came from me asking that for the business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, um, and I just feel like that's just we need to repeat that a lot because I mean, I know that there's a lot of people right now feeling a little bit discouraged, maybe by, maybe, maybe numbers if you're looking at your numbers for the year, the economy, I mean I, jason Marino, posted the other day and I thought it was so funny. He said, hey, all you big companies out there for you thinking about your black Friday sales, we all have a big TV. Let's give me a sale on some groceries. And I thought that says it really well right there, because we don't need a TV sale, we need, you know, we need gas on sale or groceries on sale. But it has been an interesting year and several years, but that's just something that we've always we've done for so long and it still works, and so, anyway, I don't know why I feel the need to. Just I'm just, I forget sometimes and I get discouraged and I'll be honest, a couple weeks ago I was feeling that way and then I think I told you, like all of a sudden, it just started paying off. But sometimes it's a little dry out there Because you and I both were kind of commiserating for a while. We're like, wow, like you know crickets, all of a sudden, and then it Complaining that it's not too much. Look, we're never happy. We can never be pleased. That's the bottom line.
Speaker 1:Well, the sound of tape Matthews means it's time to go, Because fall tour started this week and you know what I'll be doing this weekend and next weekend. So if anybody's going to see Dave in Charlottesville or New York, let me know. I'm sure, play on me there. I will not be All right. You guys, ready to wrap it up? I'd steal it. Okay, follow us on Instagram at get your shoe together. You can follow us on Facebook at get your shoe together. You can email us at girl at get your shoe together. Calm, and subscribe to us everywhere where podcasts are played. We will see you guys next time. Thanks y'all you.