Have you ever considered the impact of truly listening, not just hearing, on your life and the lives of others? Today's conversation with Christine Miles, author of "What Is it Costing You Not To Listen?", promises to unravel the often-overlooked power of listening in shaping education and personal growth. From the echoes of her mother's mental health journey to her own professional triumphs, Christine unveils how emotional intelligence and active listening can be harnessed as key elements for success. Our candid chat ventures into her drive to embed listening education into school curriculums, her innovative methods to equip students with this vital skill, and our shared experiences of the yearning to be heard across different industries.
Have you ever considered the impact of truly listening, not just hearing, on your life and the lives of others? Today's conversation with Christine Miles, author of "What Is it Costing You Not To Listen?", promises to unravel the often-overlooked power of listening in shaping education and personal growth. From the echoes of her mother's mental health journey to her own professional triumphs, Christine unveils how emotional intelligence and active listening can be harnessed as key elements for success. Our candid chat ventures into her drive to embed listening education into school curriculums, her innovative methods to equip students with this vital skill, and our shared experiences of the yearning to be heard across different industries.
All right guys. Substitute Teachers Lounge is proud to have a guest here with us today. She's the author of the book. What Is it Costing you Not To Listen? It's Christine Miles. How are you doing, christine?
Christine Miles:I'm doing great. Thank you for having me Good, excellent.
Greg:You know the reason this is intriguing to me. I come across possibilities for interviews all the time. Most of them I don't pay any attention to, but this one you got my support on this topic, let me just say it this way. So let's start with this. And you know, I told you that I used to be an accountant, and maybe that's why I have a pet peeve about not being listened to. So let's start with this. What got you into this? What made this a hot topic for you?
Christine Miles:Well, we all have a story, as you just described, with your own background. Mine actually started very, very young. So I was, I can remember, as early as five that I was listening a little differently and that largely stemmed from my mother who suffered from some mental health issues. She just didn't feel seen, heard, understood. She had lost her mother from the childbirth. So she lost her mother very, very early and I think it was just pain that most people didn't see and I learned to pay attention and what that did was listening differently made me a pretty emotionally smart child and consequently a young adult, and I started to overachieve in anything I tried to do, not because of any other skill other than this ability to kind of pay attention to what other people didn't and see what other people didn't see, whether that was on the sports field or overcoming my own academic challenges and so forth.
Greg:And then I started realizing that.
Christine Miles:this is also why a lot of people failed in relationships, because I started out my career as a family therapist, so I've got that. You know. So it's been my life's work really in some way shape or form, and I've really, in the last eight years, decided we need to create a language around listening to solve a lot of the problems that are happening.
Greg:OK, excellent, Me and you talked a little bit before we started. I came through the business field and they are notorious for thinking that what they're getting ready to say is more important than what you're saying currently. You can just see it in their face they're not listening to you at all. We'll turn a little bit to education now. Why do you think we don't teach our children how to listen with understanding?
Christine Miles:Yeah, I think mostly because it's just the way it's always been. We've not ourselves been taught to listen, so why would we think to then teach it as a skill? It's almost like walking we have legs and, unless you have a disability, you're born to listen, and it is a skill.
Christine Miles:It is a skill that can be developed and needs to be developed, and there are different ways to develop it, and I think a lot of educators are doing the best they can to try to institute some things in the classroom, but we don't have the real language around how to do it universally. Do you recommend?
Greg:a formal program to teach it? Do you recommend a formal program to teach it? Should we teach it like we teach kids how to speak?
Christine Miles:That's my ultimate mission is that I've been teaching adults for a long time, even though my background is working with family and children. In many ways, and it's just, it's like learning to ski. Why would you wait till you're 45 when you can get on the slopes at five? It's a lot easier. You're not as daunted by the mountain. We are so habituated to these bad patterns. You just described it and I call those meetings, by the way, what you just described in your quote, right, right.
Christine Miles:Let me see what I can say after you say something, and it's a lot of time wasted, so there's lots of reasons to start earlier, but we need to formalize this in the classroom.
Greg:Okay, what age do you think that needs to take place?
Christine Miles:Well, we learn to learn when we're little, don't we? We have to be learners. So this needs to start at the elementary level. In my opinion, and you know, we can start as early as kindergarten, first grade, to create the language. But really, you know, coming in around third grade is when I think the sweet spot is to really start to develop how to do this for kids and for teachers to be able to use it in the classroom, so that they're not just teaching the students but they have a classroom management tool as well.
Greg:Okay, well, let me ask you this, because I am looking over your right shoulder and I see the listening path back there. Do you have like curriculum in addition to your book?
Christine Miles:Yeah, so several things are being launched this year. So, as I mentioned, many adults have been taught how to listen, but we haven't figured it out for kids, but I committed to creating a program. Now let me just say something Teachers have enough to do. I'm not a teacher, worked with a lot of educators in both our business practice and over the years, and I don't think they need any more burden. Enough is enough. They have enough to do. So curriculum even makes me bristle a little, and I'm not a teacher.
Christine Miles:So these are lessons, and so there's a few things we have. We have a program which is video lessons for kids. They're animated. I animated myself. I'm the teacher in the classroom of the listening skills. The teachers just get to implement them in the classroom. They don't have to do the work to teach the children.
Greg:Gotcha.
Christine Miles:We have a game coming out as well. It comes in around fifth grade, so the program comes in around third grade. The game comes in around fifth grade, where they can practice the skills at a different level.
Greg:I like that. The games matter even in high school. I'm mainly sub high school now, and the games matter at all levels, or at least competition, if you can build some kind of competition into it, okay. Well then, with that in mind. So we got to think about teachers. If the teachers have never been taught to listen fully, how can we expect them to properly teach it to the children?
Christine Miles:Well, I thought a lot about this, so let me take you back. I was trained as a family therapist, ready at 22.
Greg:Okay.
Christine Miles:Knocking on people's doors at 22, said hi, I'm Christine. I'll be your family therapist my first job out of college wow but I was trained by world-renowned uh clinicians from the philadelphia child guidance center, which is part of pennsylvania hospital, and in philadelphia okay I had no experience, knew nothing of what I was doing, but I was trained master masterly from these people, that these clinicians.
Christine Miles:So I've applied a lot of those principles and what I've realized is it's too much to ask the teachers to teach this, which is why this is created, so they're the implementers rather than the teachers. As I said, I'm the teacher and then those lessons carry and the teachers can use the tools. We have a backpack that has all the physical tools for the classroom and the analogy to listening to understand is you wouldn't go hiking in the woods without tools or supplies or being prepared. We go into the conversational woods all the time unprepared. So we call it the listening path, which is the path to understanding and putting the right tools in the backpack for the students so that they can not only listen to pay attention, but listen to understand.
Greg:Okay, All right. You mentioned that with the four C's of the 21st century learning, listening is at the center. Can you explain that?
Christine Miles:Yeah, so we know listening is a social emotional skill. We know that right, we build our emotional intelligence through listening. But communication, cooperation, critical thinking and creativity are the four Cs. And when you think about again you talked about communication we talk a lot about speaking but not listening. So at the heart of all those skills is the foundation of that really is listening to understand. So when we put that in the center we turbocharge the rest of those skills.
Greg:Okay, I like that. I like that. What are some helpful tips you think the listeners can use right now? How can they be better listeners? You know what I think about. We can say all we want to that our students should be listening to us, but you know they want us to listen to them too. So how, how do we do the balance there?
Christine Miles:Well, and I imagine as you go in as a substitute teacher, you have, you know you're developing relationships quickly. You've got to get to that. So whether you're at the high school or the elementary level, right? So this is where that common language helps. But I'll just give an example of one of the tools that might be helpful.
Greg:Okay, good, good.
Christine Miles:Because it really is about how you create a dialogue of listening. So one of the tools is called a flashlight and the reason is is when it gets dark in the woods, you need a flashlight to see.
Christine Miles:And when you're listening, the speaker is in the dark the longer you listen about what you heard. So you need to shine a light on what you heard, to let the speaker know I get you. So part of that really helps if you ask for that from the students as well as give that to students. So you know, we ask people to repeat what we've said a lot, but ask them to tell you, to shine a light on everything you said so that you really get the full story and then you start to create common understanding. It's a really simple, underutilized thing between people. We don't do it very often. We tend to listen to respond rather than to listen to really summarize before we respond.
Greg:That's good. That's good. You know, I remember talking to students about Jeopardy and telling them I've always thought that everybody has taken in the same amount of knowledge. Yeah, it's just that they're the ones that concentrate on listening and paying attention, and that's what makes them better players. One thing I'm struggling with is my age. I'm 66 now and I could tell that my memory is just shot. So now I try to concentrate on listening more than I ever have. Sometimes I'll get some kind of remote story in my head from years ago and then I tell the kids now. Some of them, a lot of them I have taught since the sixth grade, substitute taught, and I would tell them it's so bad now I might call you by name when you come in. Forget your name by the time you leave. By the time you leave, do you think you know I'm going off script a little bit here. I think listening might even help those of us that are struggling with our memory. What do you think?
Christine Miles:Well it does, especially if you have to repeat it in a meaningful way, not just like a rote way. First of all, names are tough for a lot of people to remember, despite age that's a function. And a lot of people. I can't remember names. We have to take some of the pressure off of that, because that's not really what matters to people. I always say I won't remember your name, but I'll remember your story.
Greg:Right right.
Christine Miles:I'm more interested in what the person's sharing with me than just their name, and when we focus on the relationship versus just the name, that's really what people connect to. So when we go in and you know, I'm not going to remember your name but I'll remember you Right, matter so, but yeah, but when you have to say back what that's, what Jeopardy is right, what, put it in the form of a question and then repeat it back.
Greg:Right.
Christine Miles:So that's part of how you listen. To understand is is the exchange of what's happening between two people, not just the one way endeavor.
Greg:All right, let's make it specifically for substitute teachers now. Teachers rightfully so get paid more than substitutes. They work harder than substitutes. I've had some long-term jobs but and I know how hard it is just over like a six week period. But the one thing unique about the substitutes they actually meet more students on an annual basis than the regular teachers do, because we're bouncing around to different, either different schools or even different classes within the same school. Do you see that as being unique? Do you think substitute teachers should have some, a few ideas in their back pocket about how to get them to listen to you?
Christine Miles:well, I think, I think that that all, whether substitute or rare, need the language. It's unfair to say, go in a classroom when you don't have the credibility right. You have to build credibility like that you do, you do and so that's a big part of it.
Christine Miles:So it's really hard and my understanding from listening and talking with a lot of teachers is it's harder than ever to get kids of all ages to pay attention because their expectations of needing to pay attention have changed based on the digital devices. So they come into the school and the classroom with a different mantra in their brains anyway. So if you don't have that language, it's really hard to universally get people to draw young and older kids when you're in the classroom. So if we can just create this language, I think it solves a lot of problems for both substitute and and um, you know, regular teachers, as you call them, in the classroom.
Greg:yeah, okay, I like that answer. It leads me to something else and maybe this would be a good question to close with, because it's going to be a. It might require a little thought. Okay, I have noticed that I used to my favorite group to teach was middle schoolers. You know, the the sixth graders were like just huggy and impressionable and it's not like that anymore and I partially blame it.
Greg:I'm a assistant volleyball coach this year and the group of girls that are juniors I first was my first long-term job when they were in the sixth grade. So I've known them five years, really six school years, and I've told them I said you guys were the best, and I blame the COVID break a little bit because they just missed out on that maturity. And the kids I hate it to say this. I've seen it in both the classroom and on the volleyball court. That age group just seems more. I don't want to call it disrespectful, that's too strong a word, that's too strong a word. But just, I don't care about anybody but myself. And how do we get our, how do we get our listening emphasis to go over to kids like that? I'll be honest, I there was one class I told her I'd never be back and I hadn't done that in six years.
Christine Miles:Yeah, so. So let me tell you a story.
Greg:So, when I was, I would love a story.
Christine Miles:So when I was 28, I was involved in a car accident.
Greg:Okay.
Christine Miles:That changed my life. I had three and a half years of chronic pain that went acute. I was 31. So I was playing. My career was only a tick, you know, as it should be in your 20s. I was playing US field hockey, level field hockey. I was in the top 60. Big difference.
Greg:S field hockey, level field hockey, it was in the top 60. Big difference.
Christine Miles:Okay, okay, nice, I will say I'm very proud of that. But 16 and 16 years, Heck yeah so. But I went on a dime, you know, from 28 to 31, chronic pain, still playing, Couldn't pull up my shorts. Went to a doctor, oh man. My world. It fell right.
Greg:Oh, my goodness.
Christine Miles:When COVID happened, when the lockdown happened, I was doing a virtual event for a large, an international company that was holding the first virtual summit with global leaders from around the world to talk. I couldn't believe I was talking to Germany, japan, blah, blah. Everybody was in their office and I went.
Christine Miles:I've been through this before, but I thought I was by myself and I went. The world does not know what they're in for. I knew the pain of being forced into shutdown and I was in a lot of physical pain too. But this has changed us all as human beings and I can't imagine what it must be like for those young people who were forced into their homes, shut down, not connected, isolated. So we are dealing with the tsunami effect. The wave went out, no doubt.
Christine Miles:And so we have to help them reconnect and find a way to want to connect, and this is not a one size fits all solution here, but I think we have to create moments in classrooms and in schools where that's taught and they can see the benefit. One of the things the game does is that it helps. It helps kids and adults, by the way, because we have this for adults as well.
Greg:Yeah.
Christine Miles:And how to really talk about experiences. So, while the idea is to learn how to listen, the practice is really also being able to share experiences and stories. While you're doing that listening in a meaningful way, where you're finding the meaning of the story, not just what happened- so, if we don't reconnect, that's a very long way of saying they're traumatized and we have to help them find that connection again, because they are used to thinking how do I just get through this?
Greg:yeah, you know, there's a part of me that I told my wife this last night. I really think that a lot of those kids too they're. They got more structure from their teachers than they did from whoever, whatever parents or guardians they were living with, and when they were thrust into that situation for a year and a half it made such a difference, my goodness.
Christine Miles:Well, the number of calls I was on where good, of course, parents that love their kids were there in the corner while they're on a meeting because they're trying to multitask. So you have then you have other situations where the parents are dealing with their own stuff and they're traumatized and not parenting in the same structured way. So this was universal. It's socio-ethnology.
Christine Miles:Oh, for sure it wasn't just about the neglected parents, it was really about all parents, because we were trying to balance that kind of world and it didn't go well right, right, yeah, all right.
Greg:So let's close with this. I do another podcast with my preacher and I'm not going to ask you a religious question. Don't worry about it that's all right. I'm just thinking you're such an overachiever greg like, come on anyway, if you saw me as an accountant, you probably wouldn't say that.
Christine Miles:Oh, you were probably good at the math. You were probably good at the math.
Greg:I'm going to give you a statement that we close all of our shows with, and let you answer this, or let you just make a statement. Close us with a profound thought of the day, in your case, obviously, having to do with listening. What would you say is the most profound thought that you want to leave our listeners with?
Christine Miles:Listening is a gift, giving the gift of understanding. That's what we're doing. We're giving a gift to understand can change the world Good, good Mention.
Greg:I mentioned it, but I want you to mention it. Mention the name of your book again.
Christine Miles:The book is what Is it Costing you Not to Listen? Thank you for getting the title right, by the way.
Greg:I appreciate it. I wasn't going to mix it up.
Christine Miles:And the way we're teaching adults and children, the classroom program and the game and so forth is called the Listening Path, the path to understanding the listening.
Greg:Right, that's fantastic. Thanks for being here with us today. I maybe we'll do a follow-up one of these days and after you've sold, like you know, 30 million copies of your book, we'll we'll get back together and see how things are going. So, guys, that was Christine Miles and go out, and I know I saw it on Amazon. What is it costing you not to listen? And listening is one of my pet peeves too, so I'm glad we had you here today. Thank you very much.
Greg:Thank you All right. That's it guys. We will see you next week on Substitute Teachers Lounge. Okay, I haven't stopped recording yet.