Trueface

Bruce McNicol // Forgiveness

February 06, 2020 Trueface
Trueface
Bruce McNicol // Forgiveness
Show Notes Transcript

On this weeks episode of the NEW Trueface podcast, Robby interviews Trueface President Emeritus and Co-Founder, Bruce McNicol on the principles of Forgiveness and Grace and how they work together. 

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spk_0:   0:07
welcome to the truth based podcast where we discuss principles that help us live beyond the mask. Today we're bringing in a guest who's not really a guest. He's one of the founders of True Face. He started true Face about 24 years ago with Bill thrall. Every you guys listening have been faithful followers listeners to this podcast. So obviously he will not be. Ah, new voice or name. Bruce, make nickel the president emeritus, the guy whose shoes I am attempting to fill. Welcome to the new version of the true face podcast. Bruce, how you feeling?

spk_1:   0:47
Thank you, Robby. This is like a dream come true, actually to be the former. I loved your informer, and I am so grateful that you and your wife, Emily, have been, I think, chosen by the Lord for this season to help bring this really powerful message into the next generations. And it's not like us. Old people don't have stuff to learn. We got a lot to learn. But I'm so grateful that you understand so much more than I do these next generations and can take between these two worlds of this message of Jesus and these Ah, these worlds that are so connected and yet so lonely. We love that. You're gonna have the whole whole purpose in bringing people to connection. Thio Authentic community s o I'm I'm more than grateful.

spk_0:   1:44
Thanks, man. It is. Ah, it's been amazing. Few months so far for everybody listening when I transitioned into this role a big question mark when you when you step into a role and from, ah, founder is how is this going to go? What's the relationship gonna look like? Is it, um what's the friendship? You know, how's the transition going to go? And so far as a testament to this guy's mentorship and leadership in character? Bruce, I give you an A plus, I I

spk_1:   2:16
like hearing you say so far, you know, I really am on edge here. I just got it. I got to tell you, I'm gonna try to behave myself. Well,

spk_0:   2:25
hey, this next month to that, you know, it might be a complete mess, but so far, Bruce, it has been amazing. I love working with you. And, um, alongside you. It has been so humbling and your modeling of how to empower and entrust the next generation. It has been example of humility to me in action, which has just been amazing. And I love you more as a friend and a mentor now than I did before I started, which is not a easy thing, not a light thing to say, because transitions are hard and

spk_1:   2:56
yes, they are.

spk_0:   2:58
It's been fun so far, Um, Mutual. So Bruce and I, and the team we've been wrestling with, you know how to articulate what true faces and who it's for. And we've really been circling around this language that we want to quit people, to experience trust in their relationship with God and others. And that's our hope for this podcast to bring guests on here to share story toe, unpack the principle of that and then talk about how that can apply to our lives so that we can help each other experience and apply grace indoor everyday lives. Ah, Bruce, give us a little context for yourself over the past 24 years in case there's some new listeners to the podcast, and then I want to jump into the story a story from your life from your experience today. But first, give us a minute of context and the journey you've been a part of. What true face?

spk_1:   3:55
Thank you, Robby. I could come out of business as well as the church. And I had an opportunity to ah, watch across this country and other countries. Um, many thousands of leaders over a period of two decades, um, work so hard to build up their businesses or their churches or their institutions, their universities, and to work so hard at doing that, giving their lives to it and yet failing to protect and leverage that which was their goal in life, whatever business or university. And I I saw people breaking trust with each other. I saw leaders who really educated, eloquent, successful and yet, uh, lonely and impoverished in their relationships. And so we started, um, 24 years ago, almost in our 25th year, now two address the issue of more leader development than leadership development. And gradually we realized, well, everyone is a leader in some way in that the influence of the people. And so this message of Jesus, the gospel of grace instead of the gospel of behavior management, was the thing that we focused on for all these years and has served to free us increasingly in our own lives and families and friendships and businesses and churches. And it has served to free many thousands of others around the world. So where it's grateful that we got to focus on this for almost 1/4 century. And now that you carry that same passion for the next generations and we humbled by that,

spk_0:   5:50
it's it definitely feels like, Ah, prayers have been exponentially answered over the past 24 years with the ripples in the impact of the ministry and how how goddess stewarded the gifts he has given you and Bill and John and the team. And, um so it's an exciting, humbling thing to steward and pray big as we have been praying as a team. God, how do we How do we help this message grow to free more people the way it really gave me a degree of freedom in my relationship with God and others that I had not experienced prior to coming across true face about eight years ago? So I'm thankful it is had huge impact on me and a lot of people in my life, so I'm just, uh, get to say thank you. I've said it in person. I get a say it on the new podcast form, which is pretty fun, Sobers. Now I'm gonna pass it to you. And I know you've thought about a story in your past that might, ah, that you could share with us what's come to mind. What you gonna share with us today

spk_1:   6:51
that's so encouraging to me to realize that God's been at work in my life? Even before I met Jesus, he's been at work in my life. And so lately I've been thinking about stories that occurred in my grade school and early teen years that have had a formative influence on my life because God has a purpose and everything has a purpose for our lives. And even though we don't know it at the time, he is active and he is taking us in directions. And so I grew up in a kind of a high octane family. I was the middle child, older brother, younger sister and I had parents who started jam stores or jewelry stores in small university towns outside of Portland, Oregon. And one day my dad hired a gifted sales person and told him that his requirement and hiring him was that this staffer not take another start, another competing store within five miles of this particular store, which was in a university town and and by this time, junior high. I was working in the stores. All of us worked in the stores, and so we kind of got to know the different employees and such. Several years later, after they had shook hands on this agreement, the man who was a really outstanding sales person and now had gained a knowledge of the community, and, uh, and also the customers. He started a store within one block of Dad's store, located on the main street of town there and to my to my mind, I thought, Well, I wouldn't have known how to say this, but this is where we exercise some historical family power in this little town of less than 15,000 people. Maybe we sue. Maybe we take matters into our own hands, and we and we can take care of this guy's reputation because, after all, look what he did. And, um, I'm thinking and and you've got three kids educations ahead you got to make some cash and, um, I just I I couldn't believe what my dad did at that time. Hey said, Of course I would. I would put this in writing if if I had known that you can't trust business people simply because they're Christian. I didn't know that at the time trust is earned, and not every Christian leader is trustworthy. Um, and that's kind of partly how we got into this work of true face in the first place is that I began to realize, Oh, there's a dark side to the divine work. Uh, not that a contract is any guarantee of thousands of Britain contract's been violated with no recourse. So later I'd learned that a contract is only as strong as the character of the people behind it or in worst case, maybe the attorneys and courts who can enforce it. But that wasn't my lesson to learn as I was 13. The key statement that Dad told me is that he said, actually, we have bigger kingdom business to do in this town than selling diamonds, and he, um, he forgave the man, uh, and and I noticed that my dad was increasingly free in his soul to pursue relationships with business leaders, institutional leaders, the people of the of the that city and other cities who kind of heard about this story. He just kept right on building relationships and family business. And so I will never forget, Um, the peace and the freedom that he had. And now I look back on it. I I didn't know. Uh, what Dad knew at that time was that, um is really important to pursue the relationship. And, uh, so that that had a big impact on my life and a lot of other people, both those who knew Jesus and those who didn't. So that's the story I've been thinking about. Wow. Huh?

spk_0:   11:18
I I heard a couple principles in there. Ah, that that trust is trust is earned. And, um, we I think all of us listening to this, um, have been hurt or burned by a Christian because of a greater assumed trustworthiness, which has led to a harder hurt when we have realized that Christians also are untrustworthy. But but the assumption leads that hurt. I also heard you talk about the peace and the freedom from forgiveness which is, um, the significant lesson you learned from that that tell us more. What? What does that look like in the in the forgiveness?

spk_1:   12:05
Yeah, well, you know, at the time it happened, Uh, and of course, it happened over a period of weeks and months and then ultimately years, um, ultimately that this sales person went out of business and while dad's business thrive. But when dad forgave him, he didn't know that outcome. It could have gone the other way. That's that's not you don't forgive, based on the fact that you can control something. And I I was beginning to understand that on I was also beginning to understand that, um that forgiveness is a matter of trusting again trusting God. Ah, a lot of people think forgiveness and repentance its twin, um, are are issues of willpower, but they're really not. That's that's back to that gospel of sin management behavior management. Then then you need willpower for that gospel. But for the gospel grace, you need trust. And I I saw Dad Trust and I, you know, basically, God gives grace to the humble to those who trust him with their lives, and I saw that in action, though I couldn't have explained what was going on at the time. I saw him experience his piece, and it's one of the this. This principle is one of the 12 principles that we use in the true face high trust leader course. But it's also in the cure around Chapter five on two healings, and the principal basically says that repentance and forgiveness are not really means to fix my behavior or to solve a conflict there. They're gifts of God's grace to heal my relationships. And that's what I was beginning to see. That many relationships were being healed by this. Um, it seemed uncommon action of a business person and basically all he was doing. Saint God, I I trust you with this. I'm not really in control of this, and I'm not going to in many cases, you know, when we get into conflict, we want to. We won't approve ourselves right instead of do the right thing. And that was taking place in my dad's life. He was saying, Know what would what is the right thing? And he I remember him later in later years talking to me about Ephesians for where it says, you know, you freaky off like Christ for gave. And he was in a much worse situation than will ever imagine. And he forgave still. So this whole principle of of Trusting God to receive his grace to heal relationships is a really profound thing. Trusting

spk_0:   15:00
God, trusting God to receive his grace in order to heal relationships that comes through the forgiveness, which the fruit of that is the freedom and the piece for you, not the other,

spk_1:   15:13
Absolutely it iss and it ultimately, you know, the prayer is that this person will also own their stuff because, you know, if we've been, if we're older than two years old, we've been hurt by people and we hurt people. And so ultimately, yeah, that is the the hope, the prayer. But if I don't forgive, first, uh, the opportunity for healing relationships is severely damaged. So

spk_0:   15:43
So So that principle that comes from that's that's that's hard for me. An application if I'm being really because my first go to is like that Dude's a punk and you know, and what would be a way to have them accountable for rightness and fairness and business practice, and I think a lot of people listening or going man, I want to. But if but I have employees and I have accountability and justice are those exclusive is like fighting for rightness and fairness sometimes, um,

spk_1:   16:19
a hose to forgiveness. Yeah, I think it's appropriate. It's a both, and it's not either, or, um, and that's what from Dad's perspective, that's what he was learning that, you know, even if a contract can't be enforced, it would be a good idea. It's a good business practice to put that in writing so that you have common expectations and common agreement. I see that's very important. But things go south. Things go out of our control many times in this life, whether it's in a marriage or family, Children, family of origin or business like this or churches and are things that go out of our control. And were they out of our control, then? God, I think, is saying, Hey, it doesn't matter what the situation is. I have called you to love. I called you to forgiveness and here's another beautiful principle. I have actually put in you the d a. I put in you Ah heart of forgiveness and repentance. And so I am asking you to trust me with that heart that I have put inside you and by the spirits power can actually activate into the worst circumstances of your life.

spk_0:   17:39
Hand that just in processing this story and listening to it right now, I as I'm listen to story. I'm thinking about internal and external reactions, and it's my external reactions of Get it in writing or assume or, you know, sit down with him and deal with it. External things can and should be done in every situation of what's the wise writing to do. But exactly the greater principle that you're talking about is the internal position where I could have a different external outcome. But still, after your dad's example, the most important, most significant thing is the internal outcome, and in this case, that's forgiveness and the fruit of that of freedom and peace. How do you quantify that? So what if he would have got an external outcome of the guy, would have moved or got some money back, or whatever that would look like in all of our situations? All of us want the internal, but Our reaction is, is our usually focused 90% on the external outcomes of

spk_1:   18:47
what we

spk_0:   18:47
d'oh but that

spk_1:   18:48
that's right, man, and we don't know who God's preparing, who is watching when we're going through this? And I you know, there are many stories that came out of that. I think of a lifelong business owner, very successful business owner who is right across the street. Atheist at best. Agnostic came to Jesus on his deathbed, and it was in large measure because of this forgiveness that this businessman had watched 30 years earlier. G's and he And he was still wrestling that down as he was struggling with cancer. And my dad went to him because he asked for my dad to come to his bedside, and he trusted Jesus on. It was a few weeks later that he passed away, and he he did that because of what he saw it go down in thes businesses. You never know. And and I was, you know, I was 12 13 years old, learning this so it doesn't matter how young you are. God is at work in your life, too, to restore forgiveness, toe, embed it in yourself

spk_0:   19:59
Bruce, this is awesome. Ah, as as over the past couple of decades. True face and the reach and the community, we really are Ah ah, really a movement or a team of people who have been impacted by the work you have done. I'm part of that. And so, on behalf of everybody listening, I just want to say thank you. Ah, and and as this team, this movement, this group of us that are part of this true face team, um, we're thankful. And we're here and impacted because of your leadership and your legacy and your influence. Um, and we want this podcast to continue that toe quip. All of us, too, do just this be reminded of the internal value. Um, in a world where the external is top of mind and my hope for my own life and my processing out of this is to evaluate and ask ask, I, um who am I not forgiving, um, and therefore missing out on the rich fullness of piece and freedom that comes from forgiving for my benefit, because that is one of the benefits of Grayson being able to receive grace and apply it into my relationships. And so my hope. Bruce, I'm gonna walk away from this and spend some time thinking about, um how I can experience this, this grace and the freedom through who I need to forgive in my life for my benefit. Um, And I hope all of us are able to do that through a brief podcast as we run on our treadmills are do our garden or what, Dr. Toe work, wherever you guys are. That's our hope for you guys in this podcast. So, Bruce, to wrap up, I got a couple questions for you. Yeah. First question is, what is something in your life that feels life giving?

spk_1:   21:53
I think that, um, watching people experience joy, especially the next generations, because they they ultimately got connected in true community when they had been feeling lonely. And I've been ableto watch that a bit with some 20 somethings and 30 somethings lately. That has given me tremendous joy. It's It's lights. Give all

spk_0:   22:23
that school. Uh, next question. Ah. Who are What are you learning from in your reading? Listening. Studying? What do you read in there? Studying right now?

spk_1:   22:34
Yeah, that's great. Uh, I I'm kind of Eckel Actiq in that way. But, um, what I What I've been doing is ah, in my little flak channel, that app slack. I've been putting down all the scriptures that have come to me on my morning hikes up the mountain that have to do with loving people to the end. And I would say that in that the way Eugene Peterson has rephrased some of the gospel and the epistles has been most impactful in these last probably five weeks. So, Eugene Peterson. Thank you. I know he's already graduated to heaven, but his work lives on in my life.

spk_0:   23:25
That's awesome, Bruce. It had been a pleasure working with you taking over the reins. Now, President Emeritus, is that the the second part of your title or founder? Um, hero of mine? This is awesome. Thanks for joining. I have a feeling we're going to do a few more these with you. So, uh, we're excited, Robbie. Thank you. And everybody out there listening. Thanks for listening. If you would like it, subscribe it. Share with your friends. We're here to support you. Give us feedback. What do you want to hear? Who do you want to hear it from. This is a fun new season of the podcast, and we're thankful for you guys. Appreciate it. See you later.