Ep. 16 Judicial Wellness

Wellness is critical for both judges and attorneys, who can struggle with demanding careers and lifestyles. Court of Criminal Appeals Judges Tim Easter and Jill Ayers join Chancellor Jerri Bryant and Tennessee Lawyer Assistance Program Executive Director Buddy Stockwell as they discuss wellness strategies and tips. 

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;00;03 - 00;00;23;17
Host
Welcome to Tennessee caulk talk. I'm your host, Barbara Peck. Today we will be talking about wellness. This podcast is intended for judges and attorneys. Our first guest is Chancellor Gerald Bryant, who is from the 10th Judicial District and leads the Tennessee Judiciary Conference Wellness Initiative. Our second guest is Judge Jill Ayres, who recently joined the Court of Criminal Appeals after serving as a circuit court judge in the 19th Judicial District.

00;00;23;20 - 00;00;38;26
Host
Our third guest is Judge Tim Easter, who sits on the Court of Criminal Appeals and previously was a circuit court judge in the 21st Judicial District. Our fourth guest is Buddy Stockwell. He's the executive director of the Tennessee Lawyers Assistance Program. Welcome to everybody.

00;00;38;28 - 00;00;39;15
Chancellor Bryant
Thank you.

00;00;39;20 - 00;00;40;27
Buddy Stockwell
Thank you. Good morning.

00;00;40;29 - 00;01;03;07
Host
So I want to talk first a little bit about defining wellness. I think when some people think about wellness, they think about marathon running and not eating carbohydrates. And they don't do that. So therefore wellness, they don't have a wellness plan or wellness doesn't really isn't part of their life. So Chancellor Bryant I’ll start with you. What does wellness mean to you when you think of that definition?

00;01;03;10 - 00;01;16;12
Chancellor Bryant
I think it's an attitude of intentionality that you're going to make good choices every day in different parts of your life in order to have better health and mental outcomes.

00;01;16;18 - 00;01;19;17
Host
So Judge Easter, when you think of wellness, what does wellness mean to you?

00;01;19;18 - 00;01;47;02
Judge Easter
To me it means, I guess wholeness. And in all three aspects of of one's life body, mind and spirit. And and addressing on a daily basis, all three of those areas of, of your life. And when you can achieve that, you've achieved a level of wellness.

00;01;47;04 - 00;01;50;14
Host
And judge Ayers. What about you? What do you think of when you think of a wellness plan?

00;01;50;16 - 00;02;18;11
Judge Ayers
Yeah. You know, I think we all do think about, oh, I want to lose weight and I want to look a certain way. But what is equally important or more important is just having that mental wellness as well as, as I've aged, I've learned, just having more strength, more flexibility, just being able to physically do the things that, we all need to do on a daily basis. It's not running marathons.

00;02;18;14 - 00;02;25;09
Host
And, buddy, what about you? Obviously you're in a different position with TI lap. So when you think of judges at attorneys and wellness, what do you think of.

00;02;25;11 - 00;02;47;14
Buddy Stockwell
What I think about, first off is, the studies that have been done by the ABA that are very extensive on what all this means, but really, to put it in simple terms, because it's more complex and people think it is. But to put it in simple terms, how are lawyers and judges and legal professionals going to figure out how to carve out time in their life to actually take care of themselves?

00;02;47;14 - 00;03;06;16
Buddy Stockwell
So we're talking about their mental health and the stress that we deal with in the legal profession. We're also talking about our physical health. You really need both of those aspects, but it doesn't mean you have to be a prime example to get straight A's or anything else. The first question is, are you even carving out any time at all for yourself?

00;03;06;18 - 00;03;28;29
Buddy Stockwell
Because there's legal professionals? And speaking as a lawyer and a lab director, we're not really good at that. I mean, we're good at doing a lot of other things, and we'll put ourselves last. So this is going to require a change in our corporate culture, if you will, to say, you know, it's okay for us to give ourselves time to meditate, to exercise and try to make those better choices in eating and all of the things that we already know.

00;03;28;29 - 00;03;34;27
Buddy Stockwell
But it's more about, I think, primarily carving out time and making it a part of what you do every day.

00;03;34;29 - 00;03;43;03
Host
Great. So why do you think I throw this question out to anybody? So why do you think for judges in particular, wellness is important.

00;03;43;10 - 00;04;07;26
Judge Easter
You're normally not interacting with a judge unless your life is in crisis. Other people. So we're dealing with people in crisis all the time, all the time. And as I mentioned, if you're not careful as a judge, you start to just seeing the parties as a number, sort of a file number. This is state versus Smith, you know, and Smith is a real person.

00;04;07;29 - 00;04;35;28
Judge Easter
But if you've seen already six pages of state versus Smith that day, then Smith becomes just a number. And I don't think we're wired that way as human beings. I think we're wired to be, have some sort of feeling about somebody other than there just being a number. And, and it's easy for a judge to, to eventually just start looking at people as a case file.

00;04;35;29 - 00;05;16;02
Chancellor Bryant
Well, I think that, when you feel good, you enjoy your job, you're more patient. You can listen better. And I think when you have some ailment or something that's bothering you mentally or psychologically, then it distracts from your attention, makes you more tired. And, so I think it's important for us, not only, as judges, to have our own personal health, but to also model that and, and, give, support for that for our attorneys that are in front of us.

00;05;16;04 - 00;05;39;01
Judge Ayers
Yeah. And it's a play off that I don't think until I took the bench, I realized, you think it's easy. You're just sitting there all day and so do you think physically, that's an easy job. But I learned that it is incredibly hard to sit in a trial all week long and have no mobility and no sunshine. And then just the mental stress.

00;05;39;04 - 00;06;10;18
Judge Ayers
Usually, if, you know, if you're in a trial, the topic, whether it's civil or criminal, is stressful. So I don't think I really understood until I was sitting in that chair how hard it is on your your physical and mental well-being. So it you know, I learned to find times to move my body, go home and take a walk and get some fresh air and clear my mind and, just as Jerry said, just to help be, feel better, listen better, or be able to participate better.

00;06;10;21 - 00;06;24;22
Host
So did you find, when you joined the bench for. Did you talk a little bit about, like, being a judge is isolating? Did you feel like did you feel that change from being a member of the bar to being a member of the bench, like the isolation? Talk about that a little bit.

00;06;24;24 - 00;06;54;00
Judge Easter
That's a great question. Somewhat. But I will have to say that the the folks in the bar that maybe the relationship wasn't the same with was made up by the relationship of my fellow judges. It is it has been amazing to me in the 22 years I've been doing this. Now, of the three of the genuine relationship, between judges and other judges.

00;06;54;03 - 00;07;08;08
Judge Easter
So there was there was some isolation, but honestly, it was it. I mean, I've had judges to look at me and tell me they love me. I never had another lawyer do that.

00;07;08;10 - 00;07;21;10
Judge Easter
And there would be a good reason for that. But, and I've told other judges I love them. That's to me is some form of wellness right there.

00;07;21;13 - 00;07;44;01
Judge Ayers
Definitely. I kind of worked a little bit in isolation before just because I was a busy mom. I would get to work early. Work hard, work through lunch and leave. So I had a little bit of that, but I did have more interaction with other people in the bar. I could go to lunch if I needed to with somebody, or had time for that.

00;07;44;03 - 00;08;11;11
Judge Ayers
But definitely, you know, we get to on the bench and in one of our courthouses, I mean, you're you're completely isolated. Nobody could even get to my space without going through security. And so it's, you know, you and your assistant all day long, and that's about it. You don't get a lot of other interaction. So you have to, as Jared mentioned earlier, just really intentionally make time to have some other outside interaction.

00;08;11;11 - 00;08;32;18
Judge Ayers
And honestly, it's really good to to not have that all with attorneys. You know, once you become a judge, you can't hang out with your attorney friends who may be practicing in front of you. That's not appropriate. So it really pushed me to, find time to interact with other people outside the profession, which I think was a kind of a forced, healthy choice.

00;08;32;18 - 00;08;57;12
Chancellor Bryant
And. Yeah, that, you know, when you are a lawyer and you go do lawyer things with lawyers, invariably you start talking about cases or start talking about things, the law stuff that's going on. And it's hard to, give your life multidimensional, aspects without getting out with other people. And so, yeah, I found that too. But but it's very isolating.

00;08;57;13 - 00;09;21;05
Chancellor Bryant
And in the rural areas, if you, if you go to different courthouses, it seems like you'd see more people, but you don't, you just see the attorneys. And so, you have to pay attention to who you go to lunch with. In a small town, everybody watches who you go to lunch with. And so, you know, you tend to either work through lunch or go with court officers.

00;09;21;07 - 00;09;33;28
Chancellor Bryant
It, is having a group that I can hang out with at lunch. I really do, and I know some of the, judges in the larger cities can at least walk down the hall and talk to somebody.

00;09;34;00 - 00;09;51;29
Host
But talk about the mental isolation, too. I think, you know, as an attorney, you obviously have big issues and you're trying to formulate your arguments, but you can bounce your ideas off of other attorneys and partners and whoever is in, you know, your firm or just your friends. But as a judge, I had some pretty heavy decisions to make.

00;09;52;01 - 00;10;13;03
Chancellor Bryant
Yes. And and there is not anybody we can just walk down the hall with, at least in, in our district. And we've got two judges that, that are in the same building with their offices, but they may not be sitting in that county that day. So, sometimes you just have to try to find time to call a phone a friend.

00;10;13;05 - 00;10;31;21
Judge Ayers
So, yeah, that's what we would say. And I was fortunate we did. I could usually find one other judge on my floor, but again, we may be in different counties or in different court on different court schedules. So it was kind of hard to find them. But, Judge Goodman and I had that 7 a.m. phone a friend call very often.

00;10;31;23 - 00;10;36;21
Judge Ayers
So it's nice to have somebody you can, can reach out to like that.

00;10;36;24 - 00;10;42;07
Host
So tell me a little bit about the, wellness strategies that you use. Judges.

00;10;42;09 - 00;11;04;07
Judge Ayers
You know, I will say I certainly admire younger, busier people who seem to do a better job earlier in their lives than I did of trying to find time for that. You know, when I was raising kids, I just and working. I didn't make time for myself. And it finally took a toll on me mentally and physically.

00;11;04;09 - 00;11;21;11
Judge Ayers
Early on, I had a group of neighborhood friends. We would literally put our kids to bed and go walk at 9:00 at night, regardless of the temperature. You know, we would either be burning up or freezing cold, but we did that. And then you get to that phase where you're, you know, your kids are up later, they've got sporting events or whatever.

00;11;21;11 - 00;11;36;06
Judge Ayers
And I just let that drop. And, you know, it took me 5 or 6 years. It really wasn't until I got on the bench I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to take charge of this. So I just started going to a gym and I was like, I don't have time to think about and formulate my own plan.

00;11;36;06 - 00;11;56;12
Judge Ayers
I want to go where there are professionals, you know, just like people seek professional help for all things, including lawyers. Just chose to pay a professional to help me get on track. That included not just the the physical part, but, nutrition. And they're really great about, checking in mentally and, and those things as well.

00;11;56;12 - 00;12;08;23
Judge Ayers
So that, that kind of got me back on track and now I'm addicted. Really. I think, if I don't that work out or do something for myself every day, I feel I feel bad.

00;12;08;25 - 00;12;31;22
Judge Easter
Well, for, body, I try to exercise as much as possible. I'm, I like to bike. Personally. I'm, riding my bike quite a bit, and, Now doing yoga, which in the past I didn't realize was part of body, but that is body very much, mind. I really don't have to do much with the mind.

00;12;31;22 - 00;12;58;02
Judge Easter
Our job, at least in my experience. Our job feeds our mind, and gives me plenty to, to keep my mind active and busy and in spirit. It's more than just, it it I mean, it has to do with higher power stuff, but it also has for me giving back and helping, others. To me, that's, that's a way to, check your wellness in, in the spirit area.

00;12;58;10 - 00;13;00;18
Host
Chancellor Bryant, what about you? What strategies use?

00;13;00;22 - 00;13;21;05
Chancellor Bryant
Well, I like to say do what I say, not what I do. Sometimes, I, I was like, deal. Back in the early days of conference, I was the one who was up at 6 a.m. and doing my walk in the mornings before we started this wellness initiative, and I've gotten away from that. It's just there's just been so many other things that that distract you.

00;13;21;08 - 00;13;42;27
Chancellor Bryant
As you get older, you get more tired and, I'm not I've found I'm not a good early morning workout person anymore. So, like, in that time in the afternoon is challenging because you get, distracted. You get tired when you get off the bench and you don't want to do that, but at least trying to get a walk in is good.

00;13;42;29 - 00;14;06;09
Chancellor Bryant
It alone is okay. But with a friend is better because with a friend you can talk and that helps your your mental, workout. And also so I think that's, that's my primary means so far. But we're trying to incorporate that here at the conference and have a couple of good workouts while we're here with the group so that we can all talk and enjoy it.

00;14;06;12 - 00;14;19;17
Host
So Buddy, TLAP. I think that when most people think of TLAP they think of attorneys or judges with either alcohol or substance abuse issues. But what percentage of your cases these days are more related to, like mental health or burnout?

00;14;19;19 - 00;14;46;27
Buddy Stockwell
Well, actually, it's a it's a complicated issue because for one thing, people who say, well, it's just an alcohol or drug issue, 70% of those alcohol and drug cases have comorbidity. Other mental health issues that go along with them. So these cases are much more complicated than people think. But then we do get to cases that are just, you know, someone with bipolar, someone depressed, someone with some other issue that's developed.

00;14;46;29 - 00;15;08;03
Buddy Stockwell
And I would say 25, sorry, 80% of our cases now are cases that really don't have a primary substance use disorder issue. And the interesting thing is, is that, you know, the statistics change. We know now that the largest percentage of, issues in the, in the legal profession have to do with depression. It's like a 30, 28%, 30% depression rate.

00;15;08;05 - 00;15;27;05
Buddy Stockwell
Substance use disorder is less than that. More around 20%. So, you know, the playing field has changed. Now, we all know that 30 years ago when these programs started, Lawyers Assistance Program started, it was about alcoholic lawyers helping other alcoholic lawyers. I mean, and they used to call it, you know, the drunk lawyers. And we all know that.

00;15;27;11 - 00;15;53;29
Buddy Stockwell
And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But the bottom line is, is that, we know now that we need comprehensive programs. So t lab, if I can dispel any misinformation on this podcast, t laugh is a fully comprehensive, totally professional clinical program that can address any mental health issue in the DSM. So we're not you know, we're not just the alcohol lawyers anymore.

00;15;54;00 - 00;16;10;01
Buddy Stockwell
This is all about addressing all of those things. So now we have professional clinical staff, that can handle these issues. We have resources nationwide for how to deal with these issues. So when you come back to life, you're coming to a very powerful resource that can handle any issue that comes down. The mountain.

00;16;10;04 - 00;16;25;27
Host
What about people who they had don't have a diagnosis? They're just overwhelmed. I think especially with the pandemic and so many work changes and just kids being home, you're just overwhelmed and don't feel like you can handle that. Is that appropriate for t lab?

00;16;26;01 - 00;16;44;13
Buddy Stockwell
Sure. So this is what's going to happen. And we you know, the wellness initiative is fabulous. And so everything is going to happen on a continuum. So if somebody is feeling overwhelmed and they think they need help and support, by all means call T lab and our professional counselors can help and give people resources. Maybe they don't need to go to treatment.

00;16;44;13 - 00;17;14;24
Buddy Stockwell
Maybe they don't even have a diagnosis, but they need better tools. We certainly have the shiniest tool kit imaginable. We've got all the tools, and we can help someone so we can help with all those issues. But what we're looking forward to is the wellness initiatives through the bar association and through the judiciary, and every everybody getting involved to try and change that corporate culture and maybe get people some help and some better life balance practices before they get into a situation where they feel like things are melting down and it's gotten out of control.

00;17;14;27 - 00;17;30;10
Host
So what if you start to recognize either as a judge or an attorney, you start to recognize you're just concerned about a friend, whether it's a fellow judge or it's an attorney practicing before you, sort of what advice do you give? And you're like, I'm kind of concerned about that person.

00;17;30;13 - 00;17;49;24
Buddy Stockwell
Well, the only and best advice is very simple. Call me, call Buddy Stockwell. It's confidential. As a matter of law. You don't have to be the person in trouble. You could want to help someone else. We're going to give you great background information on what this might be about, what might be, you know, what options might be available to try and help the person.

00;17;50;01 - 00;18;11;00
Buddy Stockwell
And then you decide what you want to do. I mean, it's not like calling the Orkin man. We're not going to go chase people down. Okay? So it's more about educating you on how you would go about helping people, whether or not you want us to get involved professionally, doing an intervention or support that person, and the ways to approach people to try and get them to help when they may not know that you even need help.

00;18;11;02 - 00;18;28;27
Buddy Stockwell
So, you know, we're a giant resource for that, too. And again, there's no risk. I mean, it's absolutely confidential. Every call it comes in, whether it's a concern about somebody else or a person calling for help. Every call is absolutely confidential as a matter of law. So there's no risk to call. It doesn't cost anything. And we have great advice.

00;18;29;03 - 00;18;32;29
Host
So what if you are more than a little concerned? Does your advice change at all?

00;18;32;29 - 00;18;51;06
Buddy Stockwell
No. It's always call. Just just make the call. The longer you wait to call, the worse it gets. So the trouble with these things are we always think that things it might just get better. And that's that's a terrible mistake. I mean, we need it as soon as there's some concern. Just concern. So, you know, make a call, let's see what we can do or not do.

00;18;51;06 - 00;19;07;04
Buddy Stockwell
Because the earlier we can start to get a picture of the landscape and how we might help somebody, the better chance we have of getting them some help and support before something turns into some issue that might create behavior that would create irreparable consequences for them.

00;19;07;06 - 00;19;16;00
Host
So, Buddy, let me ask you, what would be your wellness advice for new judges and attorneys? So their first coming on the bench just to sort of be proactive?

00;19;16;02 - 00;19;41;05
Buddy Stockwell
Well, you know, I think the best thing to do is start by reading the ABA Path to Warrior Well-Being, which is that ABA document that was created in 2017. It came out after the 2016 ABA Heartland Study. That gave us a clear snapshot on lawyer and judge, mental health. There's a lot of great information in there to help them frame just the landscape upon which they're getting ready to enter and what they're going to have to do.

00;19;41;05 - 00;20;02;02
Buddy Stockwell
And then also there's the wellbeing toolkit that came out in 2018. It's pretty extensive, and it was a little daunting at first. And then I think just really I would always say call to lab and get some updated information, best books and let us find out what your situation is and help you. We're going to again, continue to create a body of knowledge about this and give people best practice.

00;20;02;02 - 00;20;20;18
Buddy Stockwell
But there's just so much out there now. I mean, it's so many apps and so many different things. And quite frankly, this is going to sound funny, but I do believe it. I think this is going to be a generational problem. And I think as the younger lawyers come in and they're going to handle this in a way that we were not able to because of our training and experience.

00;20;20;20 - 00;20;41;21
Buddy Stockwell
I like to tell a story of a friend of mine in Louisiana who was a senior partner in a very large law firm, and came to lunch with me one day about four years ago, and he was just angry. He was incensed. He was really angry about something. I said, what's going on? He said, well, we've had a round of interviewees come in, you know, and and they just have this attitude that they're not going to work on weekends.

00;20;41;21 - 00;21;00;21
Buddy Stockwell
And, you know, it was this one kid that came in and looked around our conference room and said, yeah, this is a pretty nice place. I might work here, but let's get this straight. I'm not working on weekends. I'd like to go to Starbucks. I like to play with my dog. And he and he was angry. He was very angry because he said, well, you know, we didn't do that and we worked hard and everything else.

00;21;00;21 - 00;21;23;06
Buddy Stockwell
So I really think that the younger generations coming in or much more willing to set these boundaries naturally and say, we're not going to be all in and work, you know, all these crazy hours and burn ourselves down. So I think all of this is going to meet itself at some point. So us older lawyers and I'll, I'll speak for myself, not the ladies at the table, but us older lawyers.

00;21;23;08 - 00;21;37;15
Buddy Stockwell
You know, I mean, you can't retrain us. I mean, we're trying hard to get into this well, to sing, but we're trying to be Calvinistic, if you will, and stoic and and get it done. And, you know, we get it done. We're like the Marines, you know, and that hasn't worked well for us.

00;21;37;18 - 00;21;48;29
Chancellor Bryant
And I can say out I've been guilty of that. Just stay until it gets done and work on the weekends. And, and and so sometimes I wonder if they're wiser than us.

00;21;49;02 - 00;22;05;00
Host
Yeah. Yeah. So Chancellor. Bryant. You you sort of are the head, the face, the the of the of the Tennessee Judiciary Conference. Wellness initiative. Why like why was that important to you to sort of take the take the lead in and with that initiative?

00;22;05;03 - 00;22;24;13
Chancellor Bryant
Well, Tim, Tim and I talked about it when Tim was, president Judicial Conference. He's the one who started he started introducing this topic of mindfulness and wellness. And and I really believe in it. And I think that in order to get other people to believe in it, you need a cheerleader. You need someone who can encourage people.

00;22;24;15 - 00;22;44;00
Chancellor Bryant
And, I feel very, almost paternalistic about my fellow judges. And I want to help them, and I want to be there and, and encourage them. And so I thought this was a good fit for me. You know, there's all kinds of committees in the conference that you can get involved in. Some are more time intensive and some are more physically intensive.

00;22;44;00 - 00;23;01;07
Chancellor Bryant
And so I thought this was a good fit of trying to bring something to us as a group that we really didn't have. We all, some of us like our jobs. We went off on our own and did our own thing to try to stay healthy. But bringing us together, I think, adds another dimension to it.

00;23;01;10 - 00;23;18;08
Host
So, judges, let's talk a little bit about the mindfulness initiative. So you were president of the TJC and you brought this idea forward for mindfulness, and there were an entire sessions on it. I think maybe some of your fellow judges thought you were a little bit out there on this.

00;23;18;12 - 00;23;21;19
Chancellor Bryant
Yeah. So I went.

00;23;21;19 - 00;23;30;28
Host
Out on the limb here and said, if we're going to have a whole morning session on mindfulness for judges, and I think some of the judges are like a serious. So why, why was this so important to you?

00;23;31;03 - 00;23;58;27
Judge Easter
Well, to be honest, as in so many things in life, it starts with a personal, I don't say crisis, but a personal, introduction. And I had been I, I've been a trial judge for 16 years, and I did not realize how much noise, just noise was going on in my head all the time, and trying to deal with the chaos of man.

00;23;59;00 - 00;24;21;19
Judge Easter
Managing dockets every day that you couldn't get through in bad days. And you had one day to do it, and then the next day you had to be somewhere else, facing the same sort of thing, and it just was just noise. And when you're wired like the lawyer that body was describing earlier, that you just you do it, you put your head down and you do it.

00;24;21;19 - 00;24;51;01
Judge Easter
And that's a sign of loyalty. That's a sign of commitment. That's a sign of being a good lawyer, good judge. You just soldiered through it. I had to give my my own children some credit for this. My oldest daughter, got into the practice of yoga and got her certificate to be a yoga instructor. And, I mean, I'm a former prosecutor.

00;24;51;03 - 00;25;24;21
Judge Easter
You know, I can be pretty rigid. His words have been used to describe me before. And when my daughter started doing that and introducing me to this whole concept of really just being quiet, sitting still, and being quiet, and then learning that there's actually apps that you can put on your phone and do that every day with, it was a hard sell at first, but it did not take long for me to get engaged, not to realize the value and the benefit of just being quiet, just being quiet and how hard it is.

00;25;24;26 - 00;25;48;02
Judge Easter
But, and once I, once I started experiencing myself up, I was like, Jerry, I want to share this with my brothers and sisters in the conference because I know they are all experiencing it as well. And, and, and therefore period of time. Can I still talk? Okay. There for a period of time, it seemed like everywhere I turned I was running in the mindfulness.

00;25;48;05 - 00;26;11;21
Judge Easter
Every program I went to or I was hearing about mindfulness went to something and at the Judicial College in Reno, and it was about leadership, but we spent half the time on mindfulness issues. And so, that was the year before I was becoming president, and I invited some of the speakers from Reno to come speak at the conference in.

00;26;11;23 - 00;26;21;00
Judge Easter
Anyway, it, that's I just wanted to share that, that with my judicial family, and I think it's been a good thing.

00;26;21;06 - 00;26;43;16
Chancellor Bryant
Well, you know, sharing things with the family, particularly new ideas. I can remember 20 years ago hearing about what a topic that we're going to hear about today, vicarious trauma, and of course, young judges. And some of the older ones too, would sit there, go, yeah, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. So it, I you've been here for a while.

00;26;43;16 - 00;27;16;02
Chancellor Bryant
You feel it. And just like mindfulness you have you had the eyes roll on a few of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now I'm starting as Tim says, he began that idea process with us. Then it's been reinforced through other parts of our lives. We keep hearing about it and seeing it and working on it, and and it's almost like, a childlike revelation that I hear from some of our judges who have approached me in the hall go, you know, I still haven't reached ten minutes yet, but I'm still working on it.

00;27;16;02 - 00;27;45;11
Chancellor Bryant
It's so good. And so just to see that excitement, even if it's in 1 or 2 people at a time, it just makes you want to keep going. And I'll say, what I appreciate about introducing this to the whole conference is just just like we get together at a conference to share ideas about work issues we're struggling with now, we're able to share these ideas about wellness and other ideas about how to be healthy, because it's not a one size fits all.

00;27;45;12 - 00;28;01;13
Judge Ayers
You know, everybody has to find what works for them with their life and their schedule. And what do you enjoy? And if you don't enjoy going to the gym every day, you're not going to do it. For me, it's great because that is another way to find a group of non-lawyers to hang out with who don't talk to me about what I do.

00;28;01;13 - 00;28;29;19
Judge Ayers
You know? But that doesn't work for everybody. So by coming together in these, wellness sessions, we're able to hear what works for other people and then make personal choices or get ideas about something else, just like we would do, you know, with our, our work ideas. So I appreciate the effort to bring that to everybody. And I think we'll just keep getting better, and other people will continue to get ideas and be inspired about how they can be better, just by learning from each other.

00;28;29;19 - 00;28;49;26
Chancellor Bryant
Sure. And that's what we try to do on the Wellness Committee is just bring a smorgasbord of choices out there. And thanks to that, for people to experience. I remember our first talkie, I had I had some people from, Memphis, as a matter of fact, that came up and go, I can do this, I can do this, I can, I can, I think I can do this.

00;28;49;26 - 00;28;59;17
Chancellor Bryant
They were so excited and I was glad to add something that that they could choose off that salad bar or what have you to make their life a little bit more meaningful.

00;28;59;17 - 00;29;18;13
Judge Easter
Well, and one of the things about, mindfulness, it's that that I this is good for me. So I'm not the most athletic person in the world. So there's a lot of things, you know, you can do to relieve stress athletically, exercise and so forth. Yeah, but anybody can sit and be still to sit and be still.

00;29;18;15 - 00;29;43;16
Judge Easter
And it just it's just as you do it more and more, it just sort of restores your spirit, and feeds what you're losing as a judge, hearing tragedy after tragedy after tragedy. And you lose the ability to I did to be compassion. I have compassion for people, I will I lost that ability. Practicing mindfulness for me brought that back.

00;29;43;23 - 00;30;02;00
Judge Easter
It help that help to bring that back and and want to pursue something that, that you could do in your job, and give back to other people other than just send them to prison or breaking up their family.

00;30;02;02 - 00;30;22;04
Buddy Stockwell
You know, there's a lot of, a lot of fun, really. I know, sounds odd, but it's a lot of fun from my perspective and everything I've been through personally to see this, see change coming. And what happens is when enough people suffer the same problem, somebody is eventually going to test the water and speak up about it.

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;41;28
Buddy Stockwell
And then once that person breaks the ice, well, you know, that's happened to me too. And then all of a sudden there's a green light for us to really say, this is what's been going on, and it's getting worse and March. And so we're learning more and more about mindfulness and meditation. And by the way, if you don't know about the book The Anxious Lawyer, most of you probably know about it.

00;30;41;28 - 00;31;02;13
Buddy Stockwell
But I just want to make sure on this podcast, it's, The Anxious Lawyer. Great book on. It's written for lawyers about lawyers on how to meditate and watch and lawyers try to meditate is really entertaining. For the last three years, I would ask lawyers to meditate and I would be doing a CLE, and I'd say everybody who meditates raise her hand.

00;31;02;13 - 00;31;20;24
Buddy Stockwell
It might be 100 people in the room, and it'd be like three hands go up. And so I got great news out this. Everybody's going to be able to say they meditated. So I get the whole room to meditate for one minute, just one minute. And it is shocking. After that people come up to me, oh my God, I didn't realize, I don't know how to turn my brain off.

00;31;20;24 - 00;31;45;15
Buddy Stockwell
My brain never turns off. And so, you know, just this concept of, hey, can we put this engine in neutral? Can we just let it idle for a little while instead of going at 8000 rpm? It's a foreign concept, so this is going to help us. But at the same time we have an enemy that's building forces and that is all of the information that comes at us, at the speed it comes at us.

00;31;45;17 - 00;32;02;26
Buddy Stockwell
Because with cell phones or people checking, I hear some people get up in the middle of the night to go to a bathroom and start answering emails because they can't resist their phone. So we have a lot to learn, and we have a lot of enemies that are coming at us, and this is not going to get better or it's going to get worse in terms of information flow.

00;32;02;28 - 00;32;04;16
Buddy Stockwell
And, you know, so it's going to be tough.

00;32;04;18 - 00;32;11;15
Chancellor Bryant
I see is also fighting that. Oh my, I've got five mindfulness labs and I need to get all of them on right now too.

00;32;11;15 - 00;32;20;20
Buddy Stockwell
So yeah. Yeah I'm I'm stressed out because I, you know, I don't have the right mindfulness practice. And I have another layer of stress because I'm not doing this right, right.

00;32;20;22 - 00;32;23;13
Judge Ayers
We do create our own. We do technique.

00;32;23;16 - 00;32;27;17
Host
For new judges and attorneys coming in. What would be your best advice to them today?

00;32;27;18 - 00;32;58;02
Judge Easter
Start giving yourself a break. Some grace. Nobody's perfect. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like we're kind of taught in law school and other education that you. That's what you strive for is perfection. And if you don't, if you don't hit that, then you're less than in some way. Maybe not a complete failure, but at least some something, less than.

00;32;58;04 - 00;33;27;11
Judge Easter
So I would just say, there's a reason what we do, they call practicing. We practice law, okay? We even as judges, we practice law. You're always practicing, so you're never gonna. You're never going to hit a home run every time you step to the plate. As a lawyer, you're practicing. You go through your whole career practicing and, there's no expectation to be perfect.

00;33;27;14 - 00;33;28;16
Judge Easter


00;33;28;18 - 00;33;57;15
Judge Ayers
For new judges, as we've talked about, there's so many changes. It's a big step from going to practice law, with a group of people and with a bunch of lawyers to transitioning to the bench. And I would just say. Take some time, some quiet time. Evaluate what your day looks like. To find time to work in.

00;33;57;17 - 00;34;12;07
Judge Ayers
Thanks for your mental health and your physical health, to help you, you know, just be a better judge. And just. It took me a while to get into that groove and figure out, you know, what my schedule look like. I like to get in early, before everybody else so I can have that quiet time to prepare.

00;34;12;07 - 00;34;31;26
Judge Ayers
That was kind of my mental well-being. And then I was, able, when I was on the trial bench to go workout after work, which kind of helped me leave it all clear my mind and then get home and have a few hours at home before I crashed. So everybody has to find their own routine, to see what what works best for them.

00;34;31;28 - 00;35;01;18
Chancellor Bryant
I think I agree with Jill. I'm not an early morning workout person anymore, and I do find that afternoon carve out, you can find a lot of excuses not to do that. You can work over, I would say stop court at a reasonable time. 430 or 5. Don't go to 6 or 7 or 8:00 at night, as I see as I sometimes did, and sometimes see others do.

00;35;01;20 - 00;35;21;13
Chancellor Bryant
I don't think anybody wants to be there like everybody else needs to carve out their time to and stop working at a reasonable time so that your body can rest and relax and get ready and stay healthy for the next day. And then reach out to others and talk to us. And that's why we're here at conference.

00;35;21;16 - 00;35;44;13
Chancellor Bryant
You know, we make, like Tim was saying, we make some really good friends at conference. And so reach out and and have somebody, even if you're not doing anything, just call them and say, hey, how's it going? And it's good to have a relationship with some other judges and to come to conference. I mean, I absolutely I think we have good attendance, but I just everybody talks about the judicial family and it is so true.

00;35;44;13 - 00;35;59;21
Judge Ayers
I mean, I felt it from the first time I walked in before I had been sworn in as a judge. Everybody was just so helpful. And the whole time I had literally felt like if I needed anything, I could pick up the phone and somebody would get off the bench, or somebody would drive to me if they needed to and help me.

00;35;59;23 - 00;36;19;10
Judge Ayers
And so for people who are maybe introverts and don't want to come to conference or get involved, I would say step out of that shell because it will just pay dividends to get involved and get to know other people. I mean, we we've all been looking so forward to being here and, just getting to be together in person again and, you know, virtual was great.

00;36;19;10 - 00;36;28;02
Judge Ayers
The AOC did an awesome job of what we could do, but you can't replace just physical contact and face to face conversations about what we're all going through.

00;36;28;08 - 00;36;33;23
Judge Easter
As Jerri was talking about stopping work early, I had this.

00;36;33;23 - 00;36;38;17
Chancellor Bryant
Flash early last night, this fire on time, on the end of a long time.

00;36;38;24 - 00;37;03;01
Judge Easter
Okay? And reasonable time. I had this vision though of of days when I was a trial judge where you really, really, really wanted to do that. You know, you knew for your own self well-being and other folks that that was the thing to do. But you've had people sitting in the courtroom for their day in court since 8:00 or 9:00 that morning, sitting there listening to everybody else's, waiting for you to get to theirs.

00;37;03;04 - 00;37;21;04
Judge Easter
And it's a really hard spot to be and decide, do I put my own self interest, my my own self well-being in front of this mom who's been sitting here all day waiting to have her, pending day like matter heard it's going to affect her life for the next year.

00;37;21;07 - 00;37;43;25
Chancellor Bryant
It is. And that's that's the way I used to do things. But we have to get up. And I didn't mean to be critical, but we have to get away from saying that's early because that's a reasonable day. And I try to I try now to, to order my cases the day before and, and, and once I get eight hours, I say, okay, that's all I've got.

00;37;43;27 - 00;38;10;06
Judge Easter
Well, and I think that's key. And, and I did a poor job of that. Didn't really realize I had the, that that the power to control my docket better as a trial judge. You can look at it two weeks before and say, got that one off close that day. We've it's more than that's enough. The tendency is just to show up and, and the clerk can do the docket and and you're still there at 8:00 that night?

00;38;10;06 - 00;38;12;05
Chancellor Bryant
Absolutely, absolutely.

00;38;12;10 - 00;38;26;29
Host
But do you think that some of the lessons you've learned during Covid, especially with scheduling and having to do virtual meetings and not allowing people to be in the courtroom for 5 or 6 hours at a time, do you think that will sort of transfer over to somebody docket management?

00;38;26;29 - 00;38;51;15
Chancellor Bryant
We we shifted everything during Covid. I don't we call it the triage, the zoom triage, and we do it the day before. Because if I did it more than a day before, cases would settle. And so the day before we ever every lawyer on the cases shows up on zoom at 430, we put just like I'd normally do when all the lawyers were sitting there in the jury box.

00;38;51;15 - 00;39;09;25
Chancellor Bryant
I do it the day before at 430, and when I get the day for, you know, the other ones that that might possibly be there, know that they're going to have to get a different day the day before. And I only have in the courtroom they come in in their time slot, either in zoom or in person at a, at their timeslot.

00;39;09;27 - 00;39;32;23
Chancellor Bryant
And, it, it takes, it takes everybody shifting just a little bit. But I'm told that they like it because they don't want to sit there all day. They know that I'm not supposed to be there till 2:00. They may check in at one to see if something happened quicker. But they can stay at their office or their clients can stay at work and not have to sit in the courtroom all day.

00;39;32;25 - 00;39;46;01
Chancellor Bryant
And everybody knows we're going to quit at 430, because I have a triage for the next day at 430. And so you watch. It's a change of the culture, and it's a change of the mindset that Covid helped us do that.

00;39;46;05 - 00;39;50;05
Judge Easter
What a great use of what we've learned over the last 15 months.

00;39;50;05 - 00;40;13;10
Chancellor Bryant
That's hey, listen, I did the same thing you did and it makes them better. They've got the lawyers have gotten a lot more efficient and and getting their times right. How many times have we been told all the judges is gone? Take an hour and four hours later, you're still sitting there every day. They know that they've got that hour that they asked for in it, particularly in zoom.

00;40;13;10 - 00;40;26;11
Chancellor Bryant
I'm like, okay, I'm sorry, but the next case started at 2:00 and your same time is over. And they've really gotten a good feel for time. And I think it helps everybody to to manage that.

00;40;26;13 - 00;40;30;00
Host
All right. Well thank you for joining us for this episode of Tennessee Court Talk.

00;40;30;00 - 00;40;32;01
Chancellor Bryant
Thank you. Thank you. Bye. My.