Episode 227: Holy Grounds: Sacramental Living with Andy Fernuik

Holy Grounds is our series about Spiritual Practices. Using scripture and story to explain the term, Andy Fernuik shares what sacramental living means and how it has changed his life.

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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

Music : 0:16

[inaudible][inaudible]

Josh Mangelson: 0:17

Welcome to the Project Zion podcast. This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world.

Robin Linkhart: 0:34

Hello and welcome to Project Zion podcast. This is your host Robin Linkhart. And today is another episode under our Holy Ground series where we discuss spirituality, spiritual practices, and how spirituality connects with faith in the every day aspects of life in today's world. Today our guest is Andy Fernuik. Andy joined Community of Christ in 2010. He is a degreed linguist and actor, artists, musicians, ski instructor, scuba diver, fencer, creator of divine culinary delights. And I would add a faithful reflection of the living Christ no matter where he finds himself. Hey Andy, welcome.

Andy Fernuik: 1:26

Hello. I'm a little, I'm a little hesitant to say hello after such a beautiful, beautiful introduction. Cause I'm like, who is she describing? Who is this swell guy? Well, I thank you for that feedback my dear though. I don't always see myself that way. Good day to you.

Robin Linkhart: 1:44

Well, thank you. Andy was a guest on our Holy Ground series not too long ago and I got to tell you folks, we just did not have time to go deep into something that we touched on briefly sacramental living. So today that is just exactly what we are going to do. Just to kind of start things off, I want to talk very briefly about the term sacramental living and how that came into our consciousness as we were driving down the path of a spiritual awakening and talking about spirituality and spiritual practices last time. The term sacramental living is found in the doctrine and covenants section one 64 nine and I'm just going to take a peak at b c. So 164 9 B and C which was given to Community of Christ in 2010 wherein we read in reference to quote God's covenant of peace in Jesus Christ. This covenant entails sacramental living that respects and reveals God's presence and activity in creation. So Andy, with that very short high level pass on sacramental living, take it away.

Andy Fernuik: 3:13

You know, I was looking, I have that same section highlighted, but I really debated how do we trim off some of this other surrounding scripture? Because, you know, how do we edit for the sake of the podcast? Because there's so much that I, I feel guilty and cutting it. So I'm glad you took on the responsibility to say, Oh, what are we going to focus on in this scripture here? I love it. Yes, well what, what is a sacrament? What is a sacrament? I know for most of us listeners here, it's going to be a little obvious what associations we have in our mind with what is a sacrament. I know coming from another restoration faith that when I joined Community of Christ, it was a little bit confused. Not for too long. It didn't take me long to understand what Community of Christ meant by sacrament when they were saying it. But in the faith, I my childhood faith sacrament was only one of the sacraments and it was very specifically called sacrament, meaning the Lord's Supper. Any other time we were talking about the sacraments of the church or of the body, we would use the word ordinances. And so ordinance, I guess in, in community of Christ, to me, sacraments became, Oh, those are the ordinances are what I grew up learning to call ordinances of the gospel or of the church. They can be called by some covenants. They what it is, is it at its base, I like what you said, is spiritual practice. In our other podcast, the Holy Grounds was that we touched on this a little bit about creating space, things that we can do to create space for God to show up in our lives, to experience Christ's spirit, to encounter the divine, to encounter God in our lives. And this is to me what a sacrament is especially good at. Not because I have even created that space, but this to me is a little bit more than just a spiritual practice. What am I going to do? Am I going to read in scripture? Am I going to write worship music? This is all my own spiritual practice, stuff like that. These are spiritual practice elements, the sacraments that I did not instigate. These, these are spiritual practice elements that Christ himself has even showed us in his life and continues to reveal to us. These are those moment I look at my, I say, if I knew, and I have the same question for everybody, even knew, Robin, if you knew that at this specific time and place in the world, Jesus was going to be there, what, do you not drop everything and go show up? You're like, Oh, I'm canceling my schedule. I would, I'd be like, you know what, I'm not doing anything at all. Anything I was doing, I'm not doing anymore and I'm going to be there. And that to me is a bit of what these sacraments I've come to learn in my own life. That these are invitations either from God for creating that, that space for the spirit to show up and for me to show up. I like what I, I think I q uoted a little bit last time of Calhoun's writings in her spiritual d isciplines, studies and such. One thing she says, a sacrament is an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible reality. In my own words, I suppose I say it's a point of union or an intersection of the tangible and the intangible, the body and the spirit and of course the mind together. It is that point, I like what you were saying in our discussion a minute ago before we started the recording for the podcast. You had said you use the word thin thinness. And I really like that. That to me has a lot of significance making very thin the separation between the mortal world and the divine world as they come together and as, as we get to experience them and see them not necessarily that it's not there, that connection when I'm not focusing on it. But in this space of sacramental living in these sacramental practices and covenants, it gets very thin. That separation that, that, that distinguishing between one and the other. And I get to see and witness and experience them coming together in a way that it trains me to trust God in every moment in my life, even when I'm not so fully aware of Christ's presence with me and beside me and before me. And, and, and throughout every aspect of my life. This is what a sacrament creates for me, is that space to experience that unlike any other space that I can find. Oh, just to be, just to be brief, even there are a number of sacraments that when we talk about sacraments, right? To help me with the list again baptism, confirmation of the Holy Spirit, typically following baptism communion or the Lord's supper or Eucharist. It's also, I've heard it called. Have you heard it called other things before? Help me if I'm, if I'm wrong or missing something here.

Robin Linkhart: 9:04

No, no, you're tracking right down the line. E ucharist, of course, would be to s ome in Community of Christ Eucharist would not be a common name, but it certainly has been referred to that throughout the ages of Christianity.

Andy Fernuik: 9:19

Indeed, indeed. I often forget that that name and it pops up and I'm like, Oh, yeah, Eucharist. The evangelists blessing or coming from the my childhood faith community was at one point called the patriarchal blessing. But that I've had the, an evangelist blessing offered a couple of times by even women priesthood holders, which has been an a truly miraculous experience for me individually in receiving those blessings through even a woman that holds priesthood powers and wields great priesthood powers to, to give me an evangelist blessing. There's also, what is there other sacraments? There's a anointing of the sick or the laying on of hands for the sick and the afflicted that you were very clear to point out. To me, this is afflictions of body, mind and spirit. There's the sacrament of marriage. There's also the sacrament of baby blessing of young children and newborn babies and such and the sacrament of a priesthood ordination. I had a question as I just said it just now for you Robin, and you might know this as I've been doing some studies there was one source, I was consulting that said blessing others can be a spiritual practice in and of itself. And it suggested to me, it said, find, seek out someone or if you know someone already who never was offered or was able to receive in their childhood or youth or infancy, a blessing and offered to give them that blessing. Now, I don't know the practices within Community of Christ is that type of blessing, something that's even offered, say someone comes in from another faith or from no, no tradition background and and say t hey're of course, well past childhood. Is that at that point, what kind of a, I guess that falls under the category of e vangelists blessing or, or is there some o ther, is my guess? My question is, if you've missed that chance in your childhood, is there, is that s acrament still available or offered in some way?

Robin Linkhart: 11:47

Certainly it is. And I think that's one of the things about community of Christ that I appreciate so much is that out of our eight sacraments, they're all open to people outside the church. Except of course you know, ordination would be a member of the church that has been called to serve in ordain ministry. Of course baptism and confirmation are open to anyone that chooses to become a member. The sacrament of the Lord's supper is open to all. And for those who seek a blessing as you describe it or maybe who don't even know that they long or a hunger for a blessing that can be asked for at anytime and it could, it could be offered depending on the specific need of the person and what's going on in their life at the time. It could be an evangelist blessing. You can receive more than one evangelists blessing in Community of Christ. You do not have to be a member of Community of Christ to receive one evangelists. Blessings are also open for families. If a family wants to have an advantage of those blessing. A couple, a group of friends. I mean it can, it can be a body of people, not just one person. It can be a congregation. There are lots of, you know, different ways as we explore and expand the understanding of evangelists blessing in the life of Community of Christ that we've come to understand can be a profound Avenue of experiencing sacramental ministry and laying on of hands annointing of oil that can meet many needs as well. And sometimes people need the immediacy of a blessing and laying on of hands would, would meet that need. And again, open to anyone. An evangelist blessing in general terms is an intentional plan for blessing where you enter into a relationship with an advantage list over a period of time and there's preparation on the part of both persons as you journey toward that time of blessing. But yes, I'm absolutely open anytime of life, no matter what's been going on in your life. For those two avenues of blessing in Community of Christ as far as an ordinance or a sacrament. And I will point out in the Community of Christ tradition, I grew up calling sacraments ordinances as well. And it wasn't until after I was into adulthood that we made the shift in nomenclature from ordinance to sacraments being something, a sacrament was all of the eight ordinances, the eight sacraments of the church.

Andy Fernuik: 14:28

Ah, thank you. I did not know that even. Alright, so there we go. We discover another similarity between us that I didn't even know in our, in our youth and childhood. I love that you say that these are even open to everyone. I'd even say yes that the priesthood ordination is open to everyone. Not that anyone wants to. Of course, as you said, there is a process to follow to, to for priesthood ordination, but in the sense that God does this call, whomever God will call and if one follows that process that God guides him or her on toward priesthood ordination, then yes and anyone and everyone who follows that and desires that and that is a calling that God has in store for this person, then yes, it is even open. It's not, it's not necessarily quite like communion and evangelists blessing and the laying on of hands for the sake or baby blessing or even marriage. I see what you're saying is that these you do not even have to join Community of Christ to be able to take part in these sacraments if you desire them. And I agree that's that just there from day one when I heard that that to me represents the God that I believe in and have come to know. And that is a very important part. Just that simple fact of knowing that those are available to all who seek them and want them regardless of membership within Community of Christ. That to me is a testimony and a witness of who God really is in my life, who I've come to know. So thank you for highlighting. Ultimately what is a sacrament to me is it means to me divine encounter. Now, as we had, we had the talked a little bit about in the Holy grounds is that in my own spiritual practices, something fairly recent in past years for me is to, is to be much more open and respectful to how God chooses to show up in these moments and not me necessarily trying to dictate or control or demand or recreate spiritual experiences even that I've had in the past. But to really be fully open, like I would in a relationship in a friendship with you, Robin I would say, Hey, let's, let's get together for lunch and I'm not dictating what you're going to wear and what you're going to say and what mood you're going to be a no, I love him. That's all up to you and it's all your freedom to show up and be exactly who and what you want to be in that space and time. So this is a, in my own spiritual practice as I do that and apply that to my sacramental living as I seek out these practices and opportunities to experience the sacraments. But also I, I really focus on my intention as I go in. I noticed that sacramental living, if, if my intention, if my heart isn't right and this is a very individual thing, even for a community experience of something like the Lord's supper is sacrament that I show up in a group to experience. If I have not prepared myself or if my intention is off, then it does change my experience. Not even necessarily for the group so much, but my experience has been different over the years. For example, growing up, I know that a lot of times my approach towards sacramental living in my own childhood faith community was one of duty and necessity and a formulaic response. Okay, if you want to open putting the a lock on your cell phone on your smart phone, you've got to hit the hit the numbers are the pattern in, in the perfect order to get the response you desire. Okay, I'm trying to get a response from God or I'm trying to merit blessings from God's son. I'm going to do these things with the intent of that being the secret combination of unlocking God's blessings or his spirit or something, you know? And if my intention wasn't off, I can clearly recall even many years of forcing myself into a certain sacramental living that was not working for me and it was creating and causing more damage in my life. I even I can see now, I even mentioned I had a therapist at one point that said, Oh, if, if, if going to church and taking the sacrament every Sunday is the, is the worst part of your week and it just, and it takes you the rest of the week to recover from. Why are you doing it? Why are you going don't go, you know, it was, it was more a message and a journey for me to understand a different approach within myself and to, to hone in on my intention. And now I see that even though I am part of Community of Christ, I reflect on experiences over the last a couple of years even where I felt led to attend other communities, other Christian communities and other faith communities, and even take part in their sacrament of communion or of the Lord's supper. I'm taught many things. And in those instances, even returning occasionally to my own childhood faith after all these years and taking part in the sacrament of the Lord's supper, or, or there are many times my father is still part of that faith. He's not part of the Community of Christ with me, a Community of Christ church. But he, he still holds priesthood office within his faith community. And part of our practice growing up was annointing father's blessings or the laying on of hands for the sick or for special father's blessings, which kind of goes between, I believe, some of the evangelist blessing, patriarchal blessing and the laying on of hands in various moments where I feel to seek that out from my father. I still do that. And there are, there are ways that the, the divine spirit, Christ's spirit of God shows up and guides my life and blesses my life in ways that I, I don't find any other, in any other relationship that's very important to me. So my experience today of sacramental living is not even confined to community of Christ. I find that very important in one of the scriptures, or you would shared from Doctrine and Covenants 164:9 a little earlier than that is Doctrine Covenants 162. You have already been told to look to the sacraments to enrich the spiritual life of the body. It is not the form of the sacrament that dispenses grace, but it is the divine presence that gives life. This is at the heart, I believe, of, of my own journey of coming to understand deeper, my approach, my intention when I choose to engage in sacramental living. It is how my intention and and and I, this is not all me doing, but this is part of the way that God has led me on my journey through his spirit and through divine encounter is to help teach me that it is not the form of the sacrament that dispenses grace. It is not the actual practice. The sacrament itself is not the means to the end, but it is the divine presence and the encounter with the living Christ in those moments. That is, I hate to say the word, that is the end. The means to that end because there is no end. When I encounter the living Christ, there is only new life. There's only renewal and in and healing and invigoration. There's, there's rejuvenation, there's a new excitement, there's new hope, there's new understand that there's, it seems so without end or beginning that I say that that is the, the sacrament is the means to the end. There is no end when it is about encountering the divine presence of Jesus Christ in our lives. That to me is the intention that has, has emerged and therefore I become a bit more of regardless of where I choose to show up, even even if it's in a simple meal. A few years ago as I was, as I was homeless, even if it's a few years ago, meeting in the park with some of the other homeless and cooking together on a simple, simple camping stove and who, what does everybody have? And it was so amazing to see that when I'd offer cup of tea that someone would run off to their car and get a few things and say, Hey, I want to share this with you. And then somebody else would run to their car and say, Hey, what about this? Would this go with the meal before we know it, everyone's contributed. Everyone's sitting around the fire together. This isn't even a church group itself. And here we are experiencing something so far beyond this where walls are being broken down. And then we even have others that would come and join other community members that weren't homeless. Maybe one I remember in specific would be driving around just circulating the oil in his big RV and the best place to do that was down at the park for the day. So you know, he'd come around every couple of weeks. He'd bring what he had and join us. We're we're dissolving or witnessing, not that we are doing it, but the spirit that comes and joins us is desolving the stratifications of socioeconomic status, of a age, of health. Some are healthier than others, some are seeking better health. We're just all together and we're watching dividing walls of every kind of disappear and dissolve before our eyes. This is the type of experience that that I have in in moments like that and it isn't even confined to a specific church name or the walls of the church. It goes far beyond what would I like from a, the scripture Doctrine and Covenants 162 and also some of the other Doctrine and Covenants scriptures is, is some of the purpose that I find or some of the effects in my life, what I expect the transformations in my life that come about through sacramental living and I suppose what I witnessed it like is in my own life, yes, there are moments of divine miracle that shakes me to my knees. But most of all, most of all what I experienced is the same sort of life development that I find in the world around us anyway. I cannot say quite day. I suddenly went to being 6'5, you know? No, I mean it was gradually a little over time. My cells literally developed bit by bit, even almost in undetectable ways. The same thing says of the big trees that are outside and they're vast branching root systems under the ground. Those took time bit by bit to develop and they're often in detectable to us in our lives. We just know that over time they take place. And I see this in my own life because there've been times long periods, even years where I, I was not part of any sacramental living practice. And then I would join another one or I would, I would investigate and go back to living even after joining Community of Christ. There have been long stretches and periods of time where I have been absent from the sacramental living even offered through community of Christ. And then I will rejoin and we discover kind of in waves and tides in my own life. And through so doing, it has created a very clear picture to me that I can look back on. And even in some of my own journal writings and just in my own recollections and I can see and testify that these transformative effects have taken place in my life bit by bit and still continue. And we're going to go over those here. If you, if you've got time here, I see them, a list of them develop in some of these scriptures from Doctrine and Covenants we just read. You have already been told to look to the sacraments to enrich the spiritual life of the body. So here's one spiritual life, enrichment, enrichment of the spiritual life of the body. Well, I see spirit and body here. Body. What? The body of the church and of the whole group, the community or my actual body? Both. I will tell you they're there. This is, this is a, the meaning the double entendre is in this both my body physically, the health of my body and my spiritual life as it affects my body as well as the body of the church and my place within the body of the community. So we have enriching the spiritual life. This is diving deeper into what we've talked about last time. Spiritual awakening, Doctrine and Covenants. 158 look especially to the sacraments, to enrich the spiritual life of the body. I think this is the scripture that 162 is referencing. You have already been told to look to the sacraments. So this is the antecedent to that, to enriched the spiritual life of the body. Seek for greater understanding of my purposes in these sacred rights. Ah, and prepare to receive a renewed confirmation of the presence of my spirit in your experiences of worship. Again, divine encounter. I'm reading renewed confirmation. Confirmation of the Holy spirit is one of the sacraments, right following baptism. Well here it's telling us, I see an understand that we can get a renewed confirmation and experience as well the presence of his spirit again and deeper and again and again in these experiences of worship Doctrine and Covenants 163 generously share the invitation ministries and sacraments through which people can encounter the living Christ. That's what it's all about. That's what I see is encounters with the living Christ. Wherever I find and the sacrament are a principle way, probably the principle way in my life that I can expect to encounter the living Christ who heals and reconciles through redemptive relationships in sacred community, the restoring of persons to healthy or righteous relationships with God, others themselves and the earth s that the heart of the purpose of your journey as a people of faith. This reveals to me a lot. This scripture. First and foremost in countering the living Christ. That's how I get to know him. I can study and read stories about him all day, but until his spirit comes in and helps me understand those stories and the significance of them and shows me things. Who is it? Nepho in the book of Mormon, Second Nephi. He says he says that the word of God teaches us all things and the spirit of God shows us all thing. I like that delineation because teaching and memorizing and understanding the concept is, is only good to me when, when there is, when I get the understanding of what it means or where it fits into my life, and, and that is where the spirit comes in and burns that witness him to meet gives me the hope and the motivation and the understanding to implement it or to grow or to change or to transform so we can encounter the living Christ who heals and reconciles. Oh, there's another thing we can expect. Healings and reconciliation. I know that especially the way that the medical system is in our country and around the world and the ailments that people experience. Healing is something that at least all of us, I believe I'm going to hazard that universal declaration and say that every one of us has wanted before at one point at our time in our lives healing or still does today wants healing and this is something we can expect through sacramental living, who he a, it counts for the living Christ who heals and reconciles through redemptive relationships, ah, with them to have relationships. This is something else we can, we can expect to encounter through the practice of sacramental living, restoring of persons to healthy or really righteous relationships with God, others themselves and the earth. Woo. That goes deep into into into telling us what types of relationships that were we can expect at these redemptive relationships with God. Yes, we said that encounters with the living Christ with others, other people in community themselves. This has been very important for me, especially some of the conditions that were present in my formative years, in growing up years, family conditions, faith, community conditions, even conditions, legal conditions in the national United States and places where I live. And throughout the world there was, there were some very clear messages to me of my errant creation and my, my inappropriate inclinations and attractions and, and orientations and identity. So a big part of my sacramental living I've seen in my life that has come about is healing my relationship with myself. And that's something that I never, I never expected, I suppose growing up and definitely didn't understand so well, but that has come out a lot more in the years that I've been part of Community of Christ at large, the Community of Christ church with also the community of Christ, meaning all those who call them Christ's name, greater greater sense of my own identity, which has been very important to be able to develop as well, my relationship with others and with God. And of course the earth as well. Other sacraments that you had mentioned from doctrine covenants 164:9, a call to make and steadfastly hold to God's covenant of peace in Jesus Christ. This is something that Isaiah talks about is the new and everlasting covenant being a covenant of peace in Jesus Christ whom he also calls the Prince of Peace. This covenant of peace entails sacramental living that respects and reveals God's presence and reconciling activity and creation. So not only can we expect to encounter the living Christ, but we also get added perspective. This revelation of God's presence, not just experiencing God's presence, but being aware of it. That's another aspect. And his reconciling activity in creation. Being able to witness that and see it firsthand in our own lives, but in other people's lives, in the community has truly added to my testimony and deepen my own relationship with God and developed me in my own ministry that God has called me. It's, it's subtle. I suppose what I'm, am I making sense there, Robin, is, it's not just my own encounters with God, but, but witnessing others encounter God as well. It's that. It's that a third person is what I'm trying to say. And not just a first person encounter, but being able to see God do the same in other people's lives. And then being able to share it with others and share our experiences where they overlap, where they differ. It just adds so many dimensions to my understanding of who God is, allowing God to show up maybe in my life in those ways as well. It is such a dimension I wouldn't want to live without another scripture that I like so much more full. Oh, this is Doctrine and Covenants 165 very recent in recent years, more fully embody your oneness and equality in Jesus Christ. Oneness and equality in Jesus Christ are realized through the waters of baptism, confirmed by the Holy spirit and sustained through the sacrament of communion. Embrace the full meaning of these sacraments and be spiritually joined in Christ as never before. Christ prayed many times in his life and even in the Book of Mormon when he visited again the American continent and those two people there, Christ prayed that we be one, one with him, one with ourselves, one with each other, one with God, one with the spirit. This oneness is of paramount importance in Christ highlighted that many times. How do we achieve that oneness, inequality and Christ are realized through the waters of baptism, confirmed by the Holy spirit and sustained through the sacrament of communion. Three very specific sacraments there. Baptism, confirmation of the Holy spirit and the sacrament of communion or the Lord's supper. That one is one that I hope we can focus on a little bit more here in what time we have left in this podcast is the sacrament of the Lord's supper and communion. So just to recap in those scriptures we list of when my intentions are right and what I expect and have experienced as well in my life through sacramental living spiritual life, enrichment of the body, the body individually, the body collectively renewed confirmation. This can come and all sorts of confirmation of what? Confirmation through the Holy spirit of whatever we need confirmation for, we can confirming in our lives from God. We need that interaction and to sense God, the presence of the spirit. Encountering the living, Christ healing and reconciliation, redemptive relationships, the revealing of God's presence among us. Oneness, renewing of covenants, spiritual formation and spiritual blessings. Let's see that one comes a, that last one comes from specifically the words of counsel in President Veazey, Steve Veazey's closing, closing sermon at World Conference just this year, a couple months ago. A spiritual blessing will be experienced when this call is emphasized as a vital aspect of the sacrament. What call? Additional meaning is waiting to be discovered in the sacrament of the Lord. Sopper renewing covenant with Jesus Christ includes the call to live as peaceful human beings who personify Christ's peace. I don't know how to do that the way I, the only way I would know how to live and learn to live as a peaceful human being and to personify Christ's peace is I have to experience Christ peace myself. I have to, I have to learn. I have to learn firsthand what that feels like, how to create that space within myself and then how to carry it wherever I go into my community. This is a freedom that I've only begun to experience through my sacramental living is being able to take that wherever I go. I was taught very specifically growing up by many sources that I needed to avoid all darkness. I needed to avoid any appearance of evil. I needed to stay as far away from it as I can. While I didn't have the strength or the understanding or the knowledge or the ability to carry light with me, but to be susceptible to the that darkness. Yes. It's very important that I stay clean and clear of the darkness. But the older I get and the more I experienced this sacramental living and the benefits of it, the more I feel empowered and the courage and, and, and the endowment of God with me in my life to be able to carry him into dark places and he shines best in the dark. And then I really see as how take effect in our world and transform our world even even in subtle ways in people's lives and in our community. No longer am I bound by clean and clear of every situation that is not filled with light, but that I have the courage to, to be whoever I am, wherever I go, wherever I'm called to and wherever. God leads me oftentimes into what other people might judge as darkness or situations that way it just because they don't look like what we've come to expect the light to look like and what has been, what has been delineated as, Oh, this is where you're going to find God is at church and in baptism and confirmation you can carry these things. I can, I've experienced carrying this power, this power of God, the light with me into situations and sharing it. Am I the light? Not at all, but to feel it with me, to feel it, guide me into situations other relationships around me that are desperately seeking the light. I've witnessed this, but how do I get to that point? I can say no other way in my life. I look back and, and it is because of sacramental living because of the sacraments that God has offered to us for these purposes. And, and it's showing up. It is a discipline. It is a practice. Specifically the additional meaning these words of President Veazey, additional meaning is waiting to be discovered in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. What does this mean? What does this mean than what is this about? Do you have any ideas?

Robin Linkhart: 43:13

Well, I do have some ideas about that. I think in the day and age we find ourselves in that God is inviting us to expand our understanding of God's presence in our world. And specifically the many dimensions of God's presence through sacrament that we experienced together. And President Veazey has made, made it clear that one of the additional meanings or additional ways of allowing God to have the God's way with us in the context of form of sacrament is in online ministry. How, and we know that we have provision being made now to offer the sacrament of the Lord's supper in online gatherings. You know, where we're meeting across miles and miles of a space to worship together, to share together, to sing together, to pray together. And now very soon we will be offering the sacrament of the Lord's supper together. And I think the additional meaning waiting to be discovered is that the sacrament of the Lord's supper is very particular in the essence of what it is and what it points to. But it is timeless and, and boundless across all contexts and cultures and time and space and can mean way more than how we might want to comfortably lock it into one moment in time or one form of participating or sharing that with one another. And I think to some degree President Veazey is very prophetic in the words that he uses because he recognizes the mystery of God that is so vast and so far beyond how we can understand it in any one moment in time and, and points to that and invites us to be open to how God reveals God's self to us in these new opportunities to share sacrament, understanding that this is not the be all end all of opportunity that generation after generation will be discovering additional meaning in the context of their lives and avenues of how they can live sacramentally and share with others. So that's just a few pontifications to scratch what I think one of the things that President Veazey might be opening up this invitation to us. I also just wanted to reflect a little bit on some of the things you said, Andy, and in reference to the community experience in the context of sacrament, you also talked about a whole series of moments with other people without homes who we're sharing together authentically in generous response to an invitation to share around, you know, a camp stove and how that took on this holy sacred presence that actually am as you've gone through the scriptures and these different things that we can anticipate and expect to bless us, tore down walls. The separation between people had a redeeming quality in the midst of this little community in California. And perhaps those same people were never together in the same way in that exact formation again. But certainly you've experienced that more times than just that one time in a similar way. And talking about that in the context which, you know, we would say is outside of attending church but is not outside of inviting God's spirit to be present with us and to be open to the Holy presence and what that can mean to us and how this multidimensional quality of community experience has so many vast diverse ways of blessing us. Whether it's at church, whether it's with lots of faiths together, whether it's people who find themselves connected through friendship and circumstance, wherever that happens. And it's not a dimension of diverse expression, just in the context of that moment it, sacraments and sacramental living have a, this breadth and depth of connection of all life beyond human life that's not locked into the time. It's a connection that draws us into the past and into the future and into the now. So generations that have gone before and diversity present with us in the now and generations to come. That we are somehow through the mystery of God connected through sacraments, which expand into our everyday life in ways that, bless us as you've pointed out so articulately. Bless us, and not just in the moment, but continue to bless us over and over and over again and have the capacity to experience something in the now that pulls us back into our own past and into a moment that we had before. And to see it with new eyes and expand, I mean, that meaning can, new meaning can be drawn out of it. So I've really appreciated how you have called us into an awareness of this multidimensional quality of the community experience and then helped us dance between dark and light. And as you were talking about darkness and growing up with instruction to avoid it, and yet your own experience and understanding of finding God in the dark darkness reminded me of Psalm 139. There's a phrase in there that says for darkness is as light to you as the Psalmist speaks to his God and how true. How true that is.

Andy Fernuik: 49:39

My dear. Your articulation is so perfect. I think we, I will just thank you for joining us for this for this episode of podcast.

Robin Linkhart: 49:49

No, No.

Andy Fernuik: 49:49

Oh, Oh, I see. I just love what you've said. I, I'm looking at my own notes and I'm realizing I didn't send you a copy of my notes. We must have the same notes here on a lot of, as you were speaking, I was reminded of these moments in sacramental living where I've experienced times and there are no words for some of these experiences, so here we are. We're trying to find a great articulation to describe divine encounter and there just really are no words. There is experience and and when it is truly this deep divine encounter, I'm always left without the, that can encompass the whole experience. There have been so many times where like you're saying that we're connected through time and space, the individual, the, the grandiosity of this whole world and community, but then the depth of, of what's inside of ourselves and the individual experience as well. Connecting those, connecting across time and space. I have on occasion, I've experienced God's presence in a way. Like I said, I'm just reaching for words that we'll never fully describe the experience where I can sense the presence of an identity. This God who is older, more ancient than the very universe and all of creation itself, but who is also new and fresh and alive as though he were born in that very moment with me. It's paradoxical, but that's one of the aspects of this relationship with God I love so much. It's experiencing the cosmic aspects and those, those men, those minute infantile moments as well. The God that that that creates micro organisms that we still cannot even, you know, the protons and neutrons that are, that are little planetary systems in and of themselves, paragons to the entire universe that we've been able to even chart and map and know that it's even still expanding and moving and we don't get any of it. We still don't know what it's like inside of a black hole. Totally. These, these sorts of wonders, both, both the macro and the micro together in the same moment, stretching infinitely beyond my own perceptibility and experiencing them together in the same moment. That as suspending me in the middle of all of it, I feel so small yet so infinitely important. At the same time, there just are no words for these types of experiences. The the aspects you are bringing up and reminded me about in, in moments of sharing a meal with some of the other homeless and some of those who are not homeless, who were just with us in the moment. The shame that I saw melt away. We say, okay, how do they really transform? Well, I'll tell you, it's very specifically watching people, even myself go from the secludedness of being in our own cars or in the areas of hiding and in the shadows where we're trying, the vigilant eyes of always looking out saying, Oh, I wonder who's watching me and judging me. And, and, and that's part in part judging ourselves as well. And the secludedness and the loneliness and the feelings that we experienced of, Oh my life really bites right now. This is not any fun. You know, and, and I'm alone in this. And why is this happening to me? And I have all these friends that it's not happening to. And then realizing in these moments when we'd get together and share this meal, all that's lifted, we see and find equality. Shame has gone from us regardless of our circumstances. No longer are we staring out wondering who's looking at this part here in this spot in the shade all day. Oh we gotta move. Cause now the neighbors are complaining that there's some homeless person than parked outside, you know, a hundred feet away from their house all day. And now I have to go find a new place. Always be chased out, always being judged after a while we start judging ourselves. But in these moments of communion and community together, even that shame is lifted by the one himself who was born homeless, who came into this world homeless, who lived much of his life, homeless and died homeless. And who was the creator of all things and his life alone in those ways. Looking at it from that perspective and knowing and experience Christ in those settings really lifts the shame and self judgment. See how I was saying about my own relationship with myself. These are aspects of how that has really been transformed and changed through my relationship with him in sacramental living now the sacrament of the Lord's supper itself. I like how you said it connects us through time and space. Christ himself instigated this practice. Not only did he instigate the practice, this was something that I even find hinted that long, long before that as early as we have records into the Old Testament, even the manna from heaven that the children of Israel were, we're required to experience God every day. They needed it. So, you know, God sees us, any develops us as a people, but also individually and, and we can see how that, how just simple interactions over generation after generation after generation have developed us to where back then, you know, these people that would have that miracle, the children of Israel would find literally food waiting for them every day. But it had to be within very strict boundaries, you know, of of it was every day and you didn't gather more than, cause if you gathered more than you needed for that day and you didn't go out and grab it tomorrow, you are missing the opportunity to go experience God again in this miraculous way tomorrow because you have enough leftover, I don't know, that's just a guess I'm imagining. But there is reasons and behind it these same people that experienced great deliverance from Egypt and pillars of fire and red seas parting and then they still built the calf and worship the golden calf. So this is also in, you know, a few hundred years ago, people, you could be walking to market and there were severed heads on a bridge. People would say, Oh, don't, don't do what they did. We don't live in that society anymore. Or there might be places in the world still like that, but for the most part, the world has changed. We as a one, this oneness have developed spiritually, collectively the whole body of this world is changing and growing. And I find this as because of our interactions with God over time, same thing in my own sacramental living, my continued commitment and covenant to show up with God over time produces its own results that I see in my life that I don't want to live without. I've spent enough time saying, Oh, I don't know that I really get that much benefit out of the sacrament of the Lord's supper on the first Sunday of the month. So I'll skip for a few, few months and then I'll realize, you know, and then I'll feel maybe I'm going to go back and see and I'll notice the difference in my life, sometimes in undetectable ways that I can't put a finger on. I just know it's there. It's part of a relationship that I develop with God. And when I do my part, I am always surprised at the ways that God shows up on God's part in the ways that is promised to me. I see the connection through time and as you say, those the future generations that will discover even more additional meaning in the, in the sacrament of the Lord's supper. Some other things I've noticed in my own study of them recently is I really do experience a oneness in equality even even at times that goes so far as during this, during the Lord's supper. Sometimes I will pray in that space and I'll, how does that prayer look? It will be an aching in a yearning in my heart for various people that I know and love, maybe some that I'm not even in contact with to share that space with me. Now I will say that there are a few in my life that I'll even look at and say, I don't trust that person or I've been injured enough by this person in my life that I don't know that I'd be willing. I don't quite have the trust to show up, say at at an evening, get together at this person's house or to go out to dinner with this person, you know, and catch up. I don't quite feel that sort of reconciliation yet in my life or that trust in that relationship. But often in those moments, my heart will be poured out in prayer and longing and yearning to share that space with this person at the Lord's table. I don't know why I can't explain that so much, but I open my heart and it's there and that itself is a very beautiful experience. It is. It does bear a form of reconciliation, especially when I have no control over the other person in the relationship. We can't force someone into reconciliation. But when I can be at that table at the Lord's table in the middle of partaking the sacrament of the Lord's supper and can imagine this other person with me in that space and even feel and see them there because they're there in my heart and long for the day that we will truly share that not just in my own prayers and in my heart, but in person, share a space around the Lord's table and why do I want that? Of course, I want to be able to share in that experience with somebody else for the love I have for them, but most of all in my heart, I want them, these people to know and experience the true and living God and to share in that relationship. Even as you and I or Robin share in that that's, that's a very sacred friendship we have that we can share in those moments. I look forward to sharing that type of relationship with many of them. I was taught something not long ago. I think it was last year. I was attending occasionally a, a group that was, that was near me. Nondenominational. They did follow a particular faith tradition, but they were kind of a satellite organization that they made a couple of little changes, not in any way to demean or diminish what the large church world church organization was doing, but so that they could include more people. They, they would follow these traditions, but they would open up to including more people. And this church in Laverne, California, I don't think it's there anymore. Things have changed and they lost the building they were in. But I would go to this church to experience communion and I noticed that there were many similarities to the way that I experienced communion in Community of Christ. It was first Sunday of the month, but they also followed a little bit more of a Catholic ceremony. I remember seeing this back on my mission i n Italy when I was invited to a number of Catholic c ommunion services. And this church, they would have us line up anybody who wanted to go up to the front a nd, and collect communion themselves individually from who w as serving t hat. That's a bit different than the tradition I know in the Community of Christ, I've come to the secrets p assed to us, t he one sharing the communion t hat comes i n a nd and offers it to us individually. We don't get up and go in a line, but I've seen this as well getting up and going in a line. Everybody waiting their turn to collect the communion, but we were reminded once you have the communion, do not take it yet. Wait until we all get back to our seats and then we will take it at the same moment. Now, I had never done that in Community of Christ or in some of the other faith traditions, not even in the Catholic faith, going in line waiting. And then once I get up to the front of the line, I take communion right there. It served to me and I take it. But in this church in Laverne, we all would hold it in our hands and wait until we got back to our seat until everyone had returned to their seats. And then at that moment we would take it all together at the same moment even. I had never experienced that and still have not experienced that anywhere else and that was so beautiful. I won't forget it, that the way that the spirit showed up in that moment for us, again, the spirit has so many colors and sounds and sensations within me, within each of us that that particular blend, that particular encounter with the spirit was one, I shall not forget that the, even the moments of holding it in my hand, I never held communion in my hand for that long before and as a physical, an outward, what do, what was it? Calhoun was saying, the outward that that represents and signifies the inward, the invisible, that act of holding onto the physical, the bread and the wine, the body and the blood of Christ in my hand had a totally different effect on me than just handling it very briefly. As it transitioned into my mouth and I put it in my mouth and then I ingested it. No, there was this moment of holding it in my hand and the way it caused me to think and as I did and opened me up in the way the spirit responded and came and sat with me and caressed my soul in that moment, and then the added significance and the emphasis placed on our oneness and our equality as we took it together. We waited for everyone to come back to their seats and then we took it together. I, like I said, I've not experienced that before, so again, that that shows me a, as we were reading before, it is not the form of the sacrament that dispenses grace, but it is the divine presence because I've been part of many forms and as long as divine presence is there, there is a oneness in that experience that even creates the oneness throughout my lifetime, my own lifetime of who was God when I was a child and who is God now that I'm an adult and who is God as the years progressed. For me though, my understanding deepens and, and changes around that. There's still that familiarity that I need, that I look for, that I hope for an anticipate of that same God being there with me again and again and again in every day of my life and in every breath of my life. This is what sacramental living does for me as it starts helping me develop that type of, that type of experience in day to day life when I'm not going today, for example, what is today, a Friday, and we're not, I'm not going to community to take the sacrament, but in those ways that I've learned through sacramental living to experience and encounter God, I start creating those moments and seeking to create them in my own worklife, my own private personal life, my worship, even moments around the table with my family every day. This is God's transformative power to take something so mundane, so, so a, what's the word I'm looking for? So, not blahzay necessarily, but just something just so mundane and, and quotidian as eating as something, as a bread. That was, that was the main and still is throughout the world. This is something a main sustenance for humans. How many times do we take bread and take it for granted unless we're starving, of course, but we don't even think about it. I even hear some people say, I'm bored by eating, you know, because it interrupts what I'm doing and other things. So taking something like bread and water or bread and juice and wine and turning it into such a spiritual occasion and experience that goes far beyond us, that helps us grasp this eternal being that brought everything in creation into being that we cannot in our current state, ever comprehend and get little bit by little bit, line upon line, precept upon precept to grow and develop and, and connect better with ourselves, with each other. And most of all with that one, God, that's what I experienced in the sacramental living. That is a miracle. People in life say, Oh, I hear a lot of, Oh Jesus was a cool guy, but he wasn't, you know, didn't perform real miracles or you know, he was, he did good. He had all the right things to say. You know, one of the best people that's ever lived, but he didn't walk on water. He didn't raise the dead. This is some of the miracle that I experienced that helps me believe in say, Oh, there is no limit to this God's power in my life. The more I experience God through sacramental living. What it also helps me do is there's a, I know we're out of time, so I'll, I'll finish on this here, but as I was reading years ago a favorite book of mine, Rabbi Cushner, his book,"Why bad things happen to good people". Or is it when bad things happen to, I think it's why isn't it so whatever. Anyway, yeah. Why, why bad things happen to good people. I learned a lot from that book and Rabbi Cushner is a Rabbi. He was from the Jewish faith and traditions, but he taught me so much in his book about Christian upbringing, this Judaeo Christian faith that I'm a part of, help me understand aspects of my own sacramental and covenant living. One thing that I gathered was, you talked a little bit about covenants, for example, the covenant of, of animal sacrifice. That was to point in the Jewish faith and the law of Moses was to point to the coming of the Messiah and the great sacrifice that the Messiah would be the very son of God, the lamb of God, I suppose. And from our Judaeo Christian faith, we don't, we're not, thank goodness, we're not running around sacrificing animals anymore. You know, I don't think I have the stomach to do that anyway, but this was, this was a sacrament or a practice, a covenant that they were making. This was a regular, very sacred, right, that they would perform for the same purposes even is for remembrance and understanding.This is something from a, that I'm seeing in the scripture. Where was it? Let me find it again. Ah, Doctrine and Covenants 164, explore all the ways that the Lord's supper, can spiritually form the church community into a true and living expression of the life, sacrifice, resurrection, and continuing presence of Christ. How can the Lord's supper do that? The life, the sacrifice, the resurrection, and continuing presence of Christ? Well, this is how I experienced it. Much like Rabbi Cushner was saying about why we take, why we I think he, in his context, what he said was, why do we keep the Sabbath day holy? Why do Jews and Christians alike still keep the Sabbath day holy? Why do we do that? And he points out that there's an aspect of covenant living, sacramental living that is in anticipation of things to come that we do not yet see. For example, the way I understand that is, and that's a, that's a, that's a fundamental aspect of the, of what he says in his book of why bad things still happen to good people is anyway, I won't give away all the surprises you can, you can go that direction more. But what I learned from it is it changed my view of this sacramental living is that sacraments, like the sacrificing of animals on altars in anticipation of Christ coming as a Christian Christ came. He was the ultimate last sacrifice. Once that covenant was fulfilled. And brought to pass. It ended. We're not sacrificing animals anymore, thank goodness. And in its place we have something else. We have something new. Why do we still keep the Sabbath day holy? Well, in essence, he claims that it's because the seventh day of rest has not come yet. I know in Christianity we often think, and I'm not here to debate that, but, but I, it makes sense to me. He says, why are we still keeping the Sabbath day holy if the Sabbath day, if God has already rested on the seventh day of creation? And he proposes, it's because the seventh day of rest has not yet come and God is still very active in our lives and in the world and in creation. And therefore we still have this practice of keeping the Sabbath day holy in anticipation of taking part in the seventh day of rest. So what I look at a, an aspect of the sacrament that is come. How does it connect us as we were saying, through time and space as one as well as in our present day and connect this to the future generations who will continue practicing sacramental living through the Lord's supper. How does it do this? Well, for me it represents many things. The life of Christ. Yes, his body and his blood, his life that he came down and in his life before his life ended. He gave us this practice hours before his life ended. This was one of the greatest and last things he did before us is sacrifice. The actual Lord. Separate self of course represents to me even in the prayers, the communion prayers, the body in the blood, it represents the body that was broken and the breath and the blood that was spilled for us. The very price of what he has stumped for each of us and I still don't fully understand that price, why and how, but it was paid the courage and the miracle it would be to have somebody tearing your very flesh and blood out of you on a cross and still choose to be filled with nothing but love in those moments and forgiveness and hope that is a miracle. I have not been able to experience that level of hope and love yet in my life springing forth from me, only in my hand, only in my encounters with the living God have I experienced that, the resurrection. How is that the resurrection? Well, the body in the blood that was broken and spilled for us. What does he do? It came to me as I I, this is one way the spirit said, I was asking God that question. How does it, how does the Lord supper signify to me, a resurrection even? Well, how the spirit said is Andy, just as he had shared an instigated the sacrament of the Lord's supper right before his death. It was one of the first things he did with his disciples as he reappeared to them. And in John St John chapter 21 there's that account. They're all out at Tiberius, the sea of Tiberius and their fishing and they don't catch anything. The next morning there they see Jesus, but they didn't know it was him. And he says, he asks if they have any fish and he meet there and, and they say, Nope, we don't have anything. They still don't know who he is. And he says casts on the right side of the ship. And they do. And they have so many fish that they can't even bring it all into the boat. And they're afraid that the nets are gonna rip and they don't rip. And that's, that's when the, the the, it says that the disciple whom Jesus loved said into Peter, it is the lore and they all start to go, okay, this is who this is. Now this is apparently the third time, I suppose, Robin, correct me if I'm wrong here. You're the scholar.

Robin Linkhart: 1:15:02

Depends on which gospel you're reading.

Andy Fernuik: 1:15:06

Yes, exactly. Okay. So this is, this is they say in St John the third time that he appears to them and then what he says, says they come back to the shore on the land and they see the fire of coals there and fish laid on and bread and Jesus said, bring the fish, which you've now caught. And they bring this fish in. And then Jesus come up and verse 13 and take us bread and give it to them and fish. Likewise. So what is he doing? He's sharing a meal with them again, something simple and something turned so infinitely sacred by intention and by presence and being open to that. And there is Jesus and they didn't even expect that they were open to it. And he's there and he shares a meal and gives them bread and shares fish with them, not to me, even though it doesn't specifically say that he's sharing the sacrament with him. This is the same basic thing he did right before you was sacrificed and, and, and it shows them many things. It shows them, look, I can eat, I have a real body just like you, I'm eating, I the, all the, all the blessings of being in that community space and, and hearing and especially after what they've been through, the trauma and the tragedy of what had gone on and the peace of being in his presence again and sharing something so simple. The simplicity of how many times a day do we eat? What a beautiful reminder that is to me. Every time I take bread, even just for a lunch in a sandwich that he is with me. Even now, every moment, every step of the way he is with me. And I need that personally when I can't see it with my physical eyes, I need to, I need to feel it, an experience that with my spiritual body and my spiritual eyes. So yes, this has done signify to me even now, the resurrection of God and his continuing presence. Well, the more I experienced the sacrament of Lord supper in community, I have those divine encounters and I know he is real and, and yet living today because I can sense him and feel him and occasionally even see his presence among us. So it's, it does the sacrament of the Lord supper revealed to me and signify the life, the sacrifice, the resurrection, and the continuing presence of Christ in my life. Anyway, Robin, I hope we haven't gone on too long here. Would you like to share anything before I'm done? I'm done now.

Robin Linkhart: 1:17:58

Appreciate everything you've shared with us today, Andy, and the many insights your experiences have brought into your life. And it sounds like the longer you walk with God that those understandings just continue to go deeper. I love the.

Andy Fernuik: 1:18:18

It's it a miracle? How does that work?

Robin Linkhart: 1:18:19

I t is.

Andy Fernuik: 1:18:19

I know there's only one way that can happen. It's not human. It's not.

Robin Linkhart: 1:18:26

I've, I've heard it said, I'm at the sacrament of the Lord's supper. All are welcome to that table. All are invited to eat and partake just as we are. No strings attached.

Andy Fernuik: 1:18:39

Just as you are. Yes.

Robin Linkhart: 1:18:41

And there's, and there's always a sending out from that table, even on the shores where the disciples were fishing, not even expecting to find Christ in their midst. And yet Christ came to them. Even from that time there was a sending out. And one of the most helpful phrases that I've heard when it comes to that sacrificial aspect of, of living out our relationship of oneness in Christ is we, we come to the table, we partake, we drink, we commune with one another and with the living presence of our God. And then we are sent out into the world to break ourselves open and pour ourselves out as he showed us how it can take any form. And it's right in the fabric and context of our own life, exactly who we are in our life. It's just a turning, a going sharing of our self and there is Christ in the midst of that. Beautiful. So thank you so much.

Andy Fernuik: 1:19:53

I needed to hear that. What you've just shared, I needed to hear that today. Thank you. That's very beautiful.

Robin Linkhart: 1:19:59

Thank you for sharing with us today. Being open and transparent with us and allowing us to truly Christ living presence and in the context of your story and your words and your openness. Also a very special thanks to all of our listeners today if you would. Yeah. Thanks so much. If you would like to learn more about Andy's journey, check out his book. Dear Mr. Stevens, Letters of Love and Hope available at amazon.com and also availible at andyfernuik.com. To hear more from people who actively practice spirituality in their lives. Look for Holy Grounds in the categories list on our website, Project Zion podcast.org and all of you who are listening, I want you to know that without reservation, all are welcome to come and share the sacrament of the Lord's supper at Community of Christ. If there's a congregation near you and you would like to do that, please do not hesitate to attend. If you need help finding a congregation, you can go on cofchrist.org and search for that. If you would like to explore receiving a sacrament of blessing as we talked about earlier today, whether that be laying on of hands, annointing of oil blessing or an advantage of this blessings. Please email me at rlinkhart@cofchrist.org or you can leave a comment on our podcast or PM someone on our podcast team. This is your host Robin Linkhart and you are listening to Project Zion podcast. Go out and make the world a better place. Take good care. Bye bye.

Josh Mangelson: 1:21:57

Thanks for listening to Project Zion podcast. Subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever podcast streaming service you use. And while you are there, give us a five star rating projects. I am podcast is sponsored by Latter-day Seeker Ministries of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are of those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Latter-day Seeker Ministries of Community of Christ. The music has been graciously provided by Dave Heinze.

Music : 1:22:53

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Speaker 6: 1:22:58

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Project Zion Podcast

Episode 227: Holy Grounds: Sacramental Living with Andy Fernuik

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