248 | Crystal Springs at Seminary

Did you know that four members of the Crystal Springs congregation are enrolled in Community of Christ's seminary program? Hear their stories of what brought them to this place as well as what they are gaining from the seminary experience.

Host: Karin Peter
Guests: Steve Otteson, Donald Mayne, Tyler Marz, Barry Lewis

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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Welcome to the Project Zion podcast. This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world.

Karin Peter : 0:33

Hello Project Zion listeners and welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Karin Peter, and today we have a panel of folks who all attend the same congregation and happened to all enroll in Community of Christ Seminary at the same time and they are pursuing their masters of arts in religion or MARs. And we wanted to talk with them a little bit about their experience and why they chose seminary and how with all of them attending at the same time, it might impact not only their journeys of discipleship but that of their congregation. So our guests are first Steve Otteson who lives East of Seattle. Steve is, is it BYU or BYU Idaho, Steve?

Steve Otteson: 1:24

BYU.

Karin Peter : 1:24

BYU grad and works at Microsoft and Steve grew up LDS and he joined Community of Christ a few years ago. So welcome Steve.

Steve Otteson: 1:35

Thanks Karin. Good to be here.

Karin Peter : 1:37

It's good to have you here. Next is Donald Mayne, who originally is from Colorado and he has made a career in the U S Navy. And Donald also was raised LDS and recently joined Community of Christ. So welcome Donald.

Donald Mayne: 1:56

Nice to be here.

Karin Peter : 1:57

Well good. I'm glad you're here and not on a ship somewhere as you were fairly recently. Also we have Tyler Marz who joined Community of Christ several years ago. Tyler recently moved from Salt Lake City to Seattle. So welcome Tyler.

Tyler Marz: 2:15

Thanks for having me.

Karin Peter : 2:17

So good you could be here. And finally Barry Lewis is on our panel and Barry is our only panel member that didn't grow up LDS. Barry was raised our LDS, which became Community of Christ. Okay. And he too recently moved to the Seattle area from Independence, Missouri. So welcome Barry.

Berry Lewis: 2:41

Thank you. It's good to be here.

Karin Peter : 2:43

It's good to have our token, RLDS Community of Christ lifer on the panel. So thank you for representing there. So gentlemen, we're going to structure our conversation in the following way. I'm going to ask each of you to share a little bit about your journey in relationship to specific topics. And then ask the others to respond to compare or reflect on how your own experience has been similar or divergent. So we're just going to go ahead and get started with, um, I think the, the question a lot of listeners may have is why, why apply to go to seminary as an out of school for many years adult people. So Steve, I believe you are the first of the four to apply. So what brought you to that decision?

Steve Otteson: 3:38

Well, since I'm kind of my faith transition from Mormonism, I found that I was really interested in a lot of academic subjects around scripture. And so I read a lot about academics around New Testament and early Christianity. And I just found that really interesting and I didn't even know what to do with that. And then I saw people like Brittany Mangelson who was going through seminary and I, I looked at and she kept saying how great an experience that was. And I looked at the course, the list of courses I, and every one I thought that looks like that'd be a lot of fun for a religious nerd like me. And I haven't been disappointed. It's, it's very academic and I really liked that aspect and it's been years since I've been in that. But like I say, I've been reading those kinds of materials and it's been right on my alley. So, uh, people ask me what I want to do with that. And I first I would just say, well, I thought I might as well get credit for stuff I read anyway. And then also thought maybe chaplain was a big a chaplain would be something that would it feel to me and I could be good at. And my wife was also doing some other training that we think might go well together. And so, yeah, I think this training is going to be good for me personally in my, my congregational life and also outside.

Karin Peter : 5:01

Well, thanks. So Donald, why seminary for you? What brought you to that decision?

Donald Mayne: 5:07

Somewhat similar. I look in my faith journey and I came out of the LDS church first. I was very overwhelmed. I felt very kind of beat down as I was raising my family in the LDS church. And I kind of got to a point I just kind of gave up on God. I didn't know. I just felt like I couldn't just live up with all of the requirements that I was, I was expected to. And I kinda kind of drifted for a few years. I was in the Navy, I was deploying, I was actually deployed in Iraq in 2011. And I call it that God found me because there was a moment in my life when I really had no touch with religion and no intention. I that spark that got, I just call it after me and discovering grace and discovering, discovering the Bible, and it would just, it became so nourishing. It was like learning a new language because words mean different things in different contexts and different religions or faiths and, but learning about grace and then coming to see grace, reading that in the Bible before, like the epistles of Paul made no sense, certainly made no sense to me when we would read or study the epistles of Paul. Like for example, the Book of Romans one one day, every four years. It just, it made no sense. And when I tried to read it, I just never could get engaged. But once I started to understand the language, it, it was just, it was just nourishment. And I just wanted to learn more. It took me a few more years to find the Community of Christ. I attended a local Baptist church, which was an outstanding experience locally from here, but it was learning, you know, the community crisis values and how those kind of resonated with me. The values of having a diverse community, uh, that just, I started learning about that and I, I immediately, I was actually exploring some seminary and different programs. At the time. And I started checking out Graceland University and I was thinking about applying before I even visited a Community of Christ church. But then I visited the Community, Christ I, uh, in crystal Springs that I just, I just fell in love with the congregation there and finally with last year I was able to enroll and it's been a wonderful experience.

Karin Peter : 7:46

Well, good. That's the, I did not realize that you were actually exploring that before you even visited. That's marvelous. So, Tyler, I think you're the last one to apply. So was that a spur of the moment decision or had you been thinking about that for awhile?

Tyler Marz: 8:09

I had actually been thinking, I mean off and on for a few years about pursuing some sort of education for the education in religion. I mean, I had taken religion classes when I attended BYU Idaho, which obviously are much different from other theological institutions, but I guess throughout my whole life I've been a fairly spiritual person. And with regards to, uh, my spiritual, my spiritual journey within the LDS church and within community of Christ, I'm very much a heart person when it comes to spirituality types. But I knew that I wanted to give more meaning to that and more depth an d m ore voice to that he art s ense of my, my spirituality type. And I wanted to add so me m ore history and some more academia to it as well. And so even though I' d b een thinking about it for a w h ile, I had researched different schools an d l ooked at different programs, not even necessarily ma ster's p rograms, but other types of certification programs for different things. And I just realized that kind of Christ was a great foundational place to start, u m, w ith regards to Graceland university and studying from them and learning not only Christian history, but Community of Christ history and all of those different avenues that it entails. And then the added fact that I could do this whole degree online wall. So working full time was an added perk to that, to not necessarily have to attend in person on a regular basis made it more easy for me to do.

Karin Peter : 9:54

Yeah. Yeah, that is a, a bonus for that. So Barry, I'm assuming your reasons were different. You didn't have a faith transition from one denomination to another being a Community of Christ, lifer. So what brought you to that decision?

Barry Lewis: 10:10

Well, I had several friends who had gone through seminary and they talked about how hard it was, how challenging it was and how wonderful it was and it really sparked my interest. So I started considering and looking at the possibility of attending seminary just to further my education and my discipleship. Um, and then I met my wife, Tammy, and she and others had already gone through seminary and they added their voice and story to it. Then I heard that two people in my congregation were signed up. And so I said, this sounds like a good time. You know, there've been, I moved from Georgia to Missouri to Washington over the past few years and it just never seemed like there was a good time. And I realized, you know, there never is a good time. So while there's other people going through it in my congregation, I might as well. And this is a good time as any.

Karin Peter : 11:16

Yeah. Okay. So you've all got what one class completed the first session completed. Okay. So Donald, what was that like when you've talked about it, you thought about it, was it what you imagined it was?

Donald Mayne: 11:38

It was an approaching the class kind of back up a little bit. I was, I was scared to death, uh, as I got closer each week,

Karin Peter: 11:46

What was the class, what was the first class you guys took? Christian theology. Ooh, ouch. Okay.

Donald Mayne: 11:53

And as we approached that class, that start date, I was, I was completely overwhelmed and I was, I want to be, to be honest, I was thinking about disenrolling from the whole program. I was on deployment at the time. I was just juggling a lot of things in my life, but then a couple of things happened. The first I received a email from the staff, uh, the seminary staff and I just wanted this, I'm just gonna read a couple of sentences if that's okay, but Zach said, uh, one of our professors, he says, I am the faculty of the seminary covenant with you to be your guides companions and co-learners and your journey through the program. As you journey through the program, reach out to me your professors and your classmates are in the seminary experience. I got that email and it just touched me. It kind of encouraged me that he was making a covenant with us, the staff to be our guides to help us through this process. I, that kind of boosted me up a little bit, but it really, it was, it was a week prior to the class date, I was still overwhelmed, but then I knew Steve was enrolled in the program. But then right before the we're gonna start, I learned that Zach was also enrolled. I learned the very was enrolled. Uh, I met a friend over when I was deployed. I was in Italy at the time. Michael Wright who's been on previous podcasts, he was enrolled in also and all these things. I just, I was, I surrounded by this little community of fellow journers and it just really, it was, it was one of those blessings that came right when it was needed that I knew I wasn't in this alone and it helped me through it. And through out the class. The class was outstanding and it was just an awesome experience.

Karin Peter : 13:28

I appreciate you sharing a little bit of that letter so that we can get a flavor of how the seminary approaches the relationship with the students in the classes. That was lovely. Barry, what's been most challenging for you in this?

Barry Lewis: 13:43

Where do I begin? It seems like the last time I wrote an academic paper was over 35 years ago. I don't know how that can because I'm only 35 years old. I still I had, I've not had to quickly read through class materials and retain the salient points and I have not had to exercise the day in and day out discipline of getting my school work done on time in a long time. I do like that the courses are mostly online. They're instructor led and they're holding our hands through the whole process. But it is a lot of self paced stuff. And I find it with my schedule it, the flexibility is nice, but if I don't plan far enough ahead, I run out of time and then I'm kind of stressed about getting my assignment completed. And this week I got mine done about 35 minutes ago, so I'm doing good this week, but just getting back into that groove of being a student. Getting back into the good habits that help you get through a course and an academic study. That's all been difficult for me. And I have mild dyslexia, so it's not really debilitating, but it does affect how fast I can read and absorb materials and stuff like that. But overall with the help of classmates and the professors, it's been a good experience, but a challenging experience.

Karin Peter : 15:23

Yeah. So time management is critical in a program like this and it is intensive and overwhelming. I remember my first seminary class, I thought it was the hardest thing I had ever endeavored to do. Um, but there are also aspects of it that are, are really, um, are really positive. So Steve, what are some of the aspects of seminary that you look forward to as you go through this program?

Steve Otteson: 15:56

So twice a year we go to independence for a week and we meet in person with the, the people were going through seminary with and with professors. And I'm really looking forward to that. We've had some interactions online in both classes we've taken, there's a discussion board and they'll, there'll be weekly readings and you have to do a post and then people comment on your post and you comment back and forth. And that's been fun to get to know people a little bit that way. But I think getting to see each other in person will be great. So I'm, I'm really looking forward to that. And then just additionally that some of the subjects I'm looking forward to are, especially the gospels, I've big fan of studying the synoptic gospels. So that will be interesting. And then the letters of Paul, I, I see some people will say they really hate Paul and some people love him and I'm, I'll be it should to, to study that in depth and make my own call on that. And it's, I'm just looking forward to that,

Speaker 2: 16:49

Figure out what side of the fence you fall on the, on the Paul fence there. Okay. Anybody else looking forward to that? Two of those weeks in Independence with your cohort?

All: 17:00

Oh yeah, absolutely, very much so.

Karin Peter: 17:02

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There's something about being together and sharing with one another face to face that's really important. So Tyler, are there any parts of this experience that have caused you to kind of hesitate and wonder why you signed up for this?

Tyler Marz: 17:22

Um, I'd say the, the biggest thing for me, I very much am loving what, what I'm doing and what I'm learning. For me that the hesitation comes sometimes just with the workload. And with my full time job, I, I have a bit of a demanding job working as a catering manager. And so some days I work a normal eight hours and other days I work 10 to 12 hours. So managing that with schoolwork sometimes can be a bit challenging after a long day to then come home and read, do all the reading that we have to do. And the amount of thought that goes into that, you can't just passively read anything that we're doing. I mean it's all for a deeper purpose and application to your life and to your personal ministry. And so I, I wouldn't say there are really any large reservations, just the challenge of work and school balance throughout the week and throughout the courses.

Karin Peter : 18:12

So the, the whole seminary experience. Even though it is academia, you are engaged in an academic degree, but it's meant to shape and form us as disciples. It's meant to change us in profound ways as we go through the coursework. And Tyler, you're also, you have engaged in a spiritual companioning program. So you've had two very different kinds of programs recently. So in what ways do these courses of study or training impact how you see yourself?

Tyler Marz: 18:52

I th I think the biggest part of that is it's, it's application to my life and how I plan on using it. Of course, I can't see all those ways wich it'll, it'll come about in my life. But I mean currently I starting in January I'll be serving on a congregation's pastorate team. So of course this program will immensely help me there and serving and leading those in our congregation and then with the other groups and organizations that I'm a part of in our mission center and sort of throughout the or national and worldwide church of it with our, the community of course harmony program for LGBTQ individuals as well as young adult ministries that we have throughout our mission center and neighboring mission centers. I, I'd say though, one of the biggest things that, that I'm enjoying throughout this is taking the things that I've learned from my previous religion classes through my bachelor degree, which were very much from an LDS viewpoint and seeing how the things that I'm currently learning, how that challenges it a bit, how that rivals it, how it adds more clarity. Um, and for me that I know that that adds a level of, um, depth and understanding to various seekers and other individuals in the church. But I just also find it interesting to see how my, my faith is continuing to grow based on the things that I learned.

Speaker 2: 20:13

So Barry, you've been in ministry for a long time as a priesthood member in community of Christ. How is this, how do you envision this impact?

Speaker 6: 20:24

Let me start by saying that, I dunno, it was like 10 years ago or something, you came down to the Southeast mission center when I was living in Georgia and taught a preaching class.

Speaker 2: 20:36

[inaudible]

Speaker 6: 20:38

um, I know you've taught a lot of them and you may not remember that one for sure. I think it was in Greenville, South Carolina. But, um, throughout my years in, in ordained ministry, I've taken several classes and continuing education and temple school classes and so on. And they've had an impact on my life. That one in particular, um, it's coincidence that you're hosting a podcast, but I have a lot of good things to say about that because the way in which, um, we walked through scripture and, uh, just the way we looked at, um, commentaries and different resources that we would use and the process that we would go through. It really helped in my sermon preparation. It helped me to feel like I went deeper and was able to bring more on those, uh, times of the events when I was bringing the message. Um, then later on, uh, I participated in a leads class, which is similar to meets class, which is a very abbreviated seminary like experience and exposure. And that's part of the reason why I thought, Hey, I, I think I want to go to seminary cause I like this. Um, and then you came back again and did another class in the Georgia congregation there. And, um, really kind of solidified things and I'm thinking, you know, if each of these experiences helps my ministry and seminary is this concentrated, uh, condensed really in depth kind of experience, how much more is that going to help with my personal ministry and my personal discipleship and what I can bring to the congregations and mission centers where I'm serving? And it's just that this is another step in my journey and I'm expecting it to be very impactful.

Speaker 2: 22:50

Well, Barry, we need to give credit where credit's due and give a shout out to Dr. Dale lustman who actually taught the preaching class when I was in seminary upon which I based the bridging class that you took when we were in the Southeast. So I wanted in case Dale, in case you're listening. Thank you very much for all of that. So Donald, in what ways do you think seminary might impact your discipleship journey in community of Christ? I think you're the newest community of Christ member on our panels. So how will this impact your discipleship journey

Speaker 6: 23:29

already? I, I feel it's helped me see Christ in a broader and in context. And in different perspectives instead of just looking at Christ in those one true jerk perspective, which how I was raised. Uh, one thing we

Speaker 4: 23:45

learned about in our first course is how other cultures and people from other backgrounds, uh, see the cross, uh, from the LDS back backroom background, the cross is a very taboo thing. Uh, and we, we would say we celebrate the life of Christ and that is death. And we would criticize other churches for even having such a barbaric symbol. Uh, but in the course we took a class and, and one of the chapters we discussed how somewhere Latin America sees across cross what it means to them or someone from a African American background or from civil war slavery periods, how they saw the cross. Uh, they had a completely different meeting. That was what I envisioned other people saw the cross as a, so it, just seeing that in a broader context, there's a word that really stuck with me through the whole process of the first courses is solidarity and how what Christ gave me had solidarity with the poor. Uh, that's kind of what the cross is. It's and people in and not as fortunate as circumstances. They see solidarity in the crop across and, and that's kind of what that us, us as images of crosswords, suppose to come and experience that same solidarity because that's who Christ had solidarity with is with the poor and those who are oppressed. Uh, so that was just one example of just opening up my mind to see like what is discipleship really is about and it's, it's changing me.

Speaker 2: 25:21

Yeah, that's a wonderful, that's a wonderful example, Donald. I appreciate that. It sounds like you were involved in some liberation theology there with that. With that, I think I know what book you were reading.

Speaker 4: 25:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:37

So, uh,

Speaker 3: 25:40

Steve, excuse me, I'm sorry

Speaker 2: 25:43

Steve, what, how is what you are learning in seminary right now reshaping your religious perspective? Don talked a little bit about reshaping how he saw a symbol. How is what you're learning, reshaping your perspective.

Speaker 3: 26:01

So something I really liked from our theology class was giving new language. Just some terms that I thought I understood, but that was kind of from my eldest perspective. Uh, so one, one was the, uh, like the definition of salvation or atonement theology. So when we started reading a Toma theology and we learned about substitutionary atonement and I, I turned exactly to Alma where that spelled out in the book of Mormon, I thought, Oh, now I know that's like alum theology that that's in the book of Mormon. It's a very substitutionary and[inaudible] having only ever known that I was surprised to learn. There's lots of ways to look at the atonement and I found some that worked a lot better for me. I knew I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't like the substitutionary film, tell him that, but I didn't have language to express what that could be a same thing of salvation. I thought salvation only met you get to have an or not, I didn't realize there's all kinds of salvation and uh, and it dovetails a little bit with what Donald's told, uh, told about we, we learned about theology and context, contextual theology and someone that can't feed their kids. They're not really worried about if they're getting to have it or not right there. Our salvation is how do I feed my family? How, how do I improve my situation? And it made me think of Christ, how Jesus was always worried about that he wasn't, he wasn't talking about getting to heaven or not. It was more about how do we help people? How do we feed the poor? How do we close the naked, free the prisoners? So again, just knew the language. I really appreciated. Uh, the other thing I've liked is it's helped me keep in mind those that are underrepresented. Uh, this week we read a book called mother or midwife, and it's a feminist theology and it brings themes out of the Hebrew Bible that are, they're there but are very underrepresented, uh, that have a morning mother or a midwife bringing new life to things. And her point was, there's all these days we get these dominant narratives and Aviva omnipotent God, but there's these other underlying themes that are underrepresented in it. It just, she kept reminding me, don't forget these voices that are underrepresented. And so I'm hoping in the future I'll remember to, to look for those things and give voice to those kinds of people.

Speaker 2: 28:27

So I appreciate you sharing that as you're sharing that, that Steve, I'm recognizing name that you are for white privileged males. Absolutely. Um, and learning a lot about how Christianity affects in a broader context has got to have some impact.

Speaker 3: 28:49

Yes. For sure.

Speaker 2: 28:50

On, on your lives. Yeah, absolutely. So you all are, um, even Barry as, as our token lifer here, you're all fairly new to your congregation and I think Donald, you mentioned it earlier, that it's crystal Springs congregation. We'll make sure to mention them because they're a terrific group of people. And crystal Springs is in Bothell, Washington, which is North of the Northern part of the greater Seattle metropolitan area. So with all of you attending seminary all at once, um, crystal Springs is not a giant congregation. It's a fairly, um, modest size of people. So the four of you represent a pretty solid percentage of people of your congregation. So Donald Woods, what's the response been to, to all of you enrolling in seminary at the same time?

Speaker 4: 29:47

I just very supportive and very excited. Uh, a lot of people come up and just shared their support and excitement for me. And we've also, I've also had those conversations, a few conversations with others in the congregation. Why do to do something so

Speaker 2: 30:06

excellent. So nobody's made the comment that they're expecting, um, excellent sermons or better class teachers or any of that kind of thing. We do get some of that. Oh, do you? Okay. I would say just about every week someone wants us to get up and speak and do something. Oh, that's actually really good. It helps solidify the learning, doesn't it, that you're experiencing? Definitely. So Barry, there are, um, some other people in your congregation. You mentioned your spouse who has an advanced degree in religion and there are a few others, um, in your congregation who have advanced degrees in religion, but you guys really do increase that number significantly in doing this. What do you think the impact might be on your congregation there in crystal Springs?

Speaker 6: 31:01

That's a really good question and I don't know a good answer for it, but I know what I hope. I hope that it will be a boost to our collective commitment and dedication to furthering Christ mission. Um, my reason for attending a seminary boys' boils down to self-improvement. Um, my hope is that by gaining additional knowledge, um, and understanding and maybe even wisdom, um, that I can help bring a little something to the table. And you're right. We do have a lot of folks with advanced degrees and sometimes I feel like I'm the dumb one in the room. Um, but as I'm learning more and as I'm talking with my wife Tammy and, and so on, um, it's not so much that they're trying to make us feel dumb. It's that they're trying to help us, uh, see another perspective. And that's a lot more clear to me now. Um, and hopefully I'll be one of those people that can maybe add to that conversation and add even even a different perspective that may be what they're familiar with. So, another thing that I'm hoping is that like was already mentioned, others have said, Hey, you know, I'm thinking about maybe joining seminary and encouraging them. Um, I'm on a two year track. I think Donald is on a three or four year track. Um, I'm trying to get it all done as quick as I can just because I'm having to put a few things on hold in my personal life while I go through this. And I want that to be as quick as possible. Um, but that's not everybody's schedule. That's not everybody's path and you don't have to do it in two years. You can do it in three years or four years or whatever, however long it takes. Um, so I, I think maybe bringing another voice to the table and being an advocate for seminary and other learning opportunities,

Speaker 2: 33:13

it would be marvelous to have more folks from crystal Springs decide to do that. So the four of you embarked on this journey together and it's gotta be somewhat, have an[inaudible] the boy's adventure here with the four gentleman from crystal Springs doing this. So Tyler, what do you think? That's gonna. Uh, how do you think that might shape your relationship with each other?

Speaker 5: 33:40

I mean, there, first of all, there's just an immense amount of sort of solidarity and comradery with each other and the fact that we're all staying up a little late to do all of our reading. We all have these moments of being down to the wire and getting our assignments done and trying to be the best students and, and really grasp the material so that, um, it betters our lives and others' lives, hopefully, but, but there is just this, this solidarity and, uh, in doing our assignments and finishing them and the things that we're learning and what we're excited about and what we're struggling with and you know, things that are challenging us of it. I think all of us in some form are doing bits of rewriting and overwriting of some of our theology and our thoughts as we go along. Um, and so it's[inaudible] it's exciting and sort of frustrating at the same time. A bit for me at least. I know as I'm reading through some of this stuff that I just come along, these little speed bumps that I realize, I guess I didn't work through that yet. Oh, now I have to face it head on before trucking along. I think with that, it just creates this sense of bond between all of us as we're working through things and trying to understand it. It brings us closer, um, in that regard.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Sorry, I appreciate that Tyler, because it really is more than absorbing information. It is information that affects a deeply held beliefs and values and that has significance for how we live our lives[inaudible] and to how we project ourselves to other people and how we, um, serve as disciples. So kudos you folks for doing that. Steve, you mentioned earlier that your spouse, where lean is in a different program, she's actually in a spiritual director program while you're pursuing an academic, a religion degree. These are very different programs, very diverse learnings and gifts. Just as you enrolling in a very diverse and compliment each other wonderfully. How do you think that will bring some additional blessing beyond the life of the congregation but just in the ministry that you and roiling offer?

Speaker 3: 36:10

I think it's amazing how, like you said, the programs are very different and yet we're always reading things. There seems to be a synergy and some, I dunno, interesting coincidence. I'm not sure what to call out of the things we learned that the inform each other and that we bounce off each other and that's been really great. I, uh, I think we do work well together. I, we kind of thought were destined to do something together. We don't know what, but, uh, I'm very academic and she's, she's more heart-based but then we, we both have aspects of the other as well. And so I, I think that'll be fun. Um, just one interesting thing happened to me this week, uh, on Twitter, someone asked a question, they said, well, if the book of Mormon is not historically true, then the LDS church basically should just fold up and go away. Cause it's all burn it all down. And I found myself defending the book of Mormon. I, I don't use it a lot, but I, I said, I said, look, there's, and this is something we learned in seminary, this the very first class, or actually this last class about the Hebrew Bible. People use the myths that they knew and they built on those to teach theological things. And so I said, just because something's mythological doesn't mean there's not theological truth in that. And, and we went back and forth and these two ex Mormons were kind of coming around and they, one of them said, well, does everybody in community Christ think like that? And I said, well, I can't speak for everybody. I've, but I've been a member for two years. But I think it's a pretty common understanding. And, and two of them said, well, maybe I should check out that church. And they just, it's just a new way of thinking. Right. And I think when you're open about that and help people understand that the world's not black and white and it's not this or that, and then it can be a lot of things together. And when you work through it, you know, you can deconstruct it, but you can reconstruct too and find that it's not something, it's not something you need to just throw away. That there's a reason these scriptures when dirt for especially the old, the new Testament for 2000 years and beyond, there's, there's something very valuable there. And I, uh, I kind of look forward to, no advocating for that as the right word, but just showing people that you don't need to burn it all down and, and maybe there's something worth saving and religion and not saying community of Christ necessarily. That's great if they end up there. But I think Rowley and I both feel called to help people find spirituality after they, they feel like it's been totally burned down. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:36

So I hear similar strains in what all of you have shared. And I mean beyond the, the wanting to explore more academically and, and that aspect of the program, but the real commitment to ministry and the real commitment to living as disciples. And Donald, you mentioned grace when you were sharing about your faith transition and, and I think it's living out that grace, this seminary experience helps us to live that out more fully in our lives and how we respond to other people as well. Plus you're going to need tons of it as you go through seminary. Just tons of grace to give yourself grace and give each other grace and give the professor's grace and just experience that in all of its dimensions. So I did have one quick additional question before we close here. And that is any favorite books yet that you've read? Any favorite texts yet?

Speaker 6: 39:33

Yeah, the book mother mourner midwife, uh, brought the feminist perspective, which as a privileged white male. Thank you for pointing that out. I really had never thought of or delved into or explored and a lot of the Hebrew Bible scriptures, um, I was always focusing on the male war, um, devastation and destruction kind of language. And I always found it very depressing. And then this book brings out, yup. So right here in the middle of this, here we go. It's verse three four five, six is all about death and destruction. Seven is about a rebirth and, and it has a feminine quality. And then eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 is all about death and destruction. It's just kind of thrown in the middle there as like, I just always skipped over that and I never realized that there was an opportunity for growth and for forgiveness and for grace and for all that stuff in the Hebrew Bible. I was just reading all this, you know, you're going to go to the, you know, Shoal and be dead and you're going to just be destroyed and exiled and all these bad things. And I was just very appreciative of that book, bringing that voice in that perspective because it really helped me to see some good in the Hebrew Bible.

Speaker 3: 41:06

So I really liked our systematic theology book, uh, faith seeking understanding by military and I, well I, I love how Tony tshirt and 20th Charmaine were, had been going through that and I've been following that. And then when I got the book text book myself, it was interesting to see what they were focusing on and what they were drawing out of that. And yeah, that's it. Religion or it actually I, when I first saw the courses I thought I would like theology the least, but found out I really liked

Speaker 4: 41:33

it and[inaudible] again, giving me new language trolleys, topics, I thought I understood, but I was just really trying to go through it, uh, topic by topic and learn so much.

Speaker 2: 41:44

Yeah. Anybody else?

Speaker 4: 41:47

Yeah, I found myself, I also really liked basic understanding and I found myself looking forward, I'd, I'd see we'd be studying a topic next week and for example, resurrection or, and I'd be looking forward to what does it have to say it was, it was tampered about cool experience because discover just the different perspective, the perspectives in that book.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Excellent. Tyler, do you have a favorite,

Speaker 5: 42:12

well, not to sound like a broken record, but I do really love both of those books and I think the aspects of them that I liked the most were the, the application to today. Um, specifically in military. Um, he talks a bit about the applying, he rewrites some different, um, definitions of things, but then he applies it to today in our current context. And the same with more than mother and midwife. Um, she uses some examples from either the Holocaust or, um, September 11th, um, and it just takes these, these, uh, understandings of things and applies it in such a way that we really can grasp it. Um, but then applies it back to the things that we're learning and the old Testament or different parts of scripture and it just opens it up to a completely different way of understanding than just this death and destruction that various talking about this really doom and gloom part that the um, the old Testament various parts of scripture have. So for me, those are, those have been some of my favorites so far.

Speaker 2: 43:21

It sounds like here in crystal Springs congregation in Bothell, Washington, we have our own little, a great awakening happening with the four of you and your participation in seminary. I appreciate that you took some time out to visit with us today here on projects I and a podcast and I want to thank each of you, very Lewis, Tyler Mars, Donald Maine and Steve Addison or sharing with us today. If you are interested in a graduate degree in religious studies, you can find community of Christ seminary@graceland.edu or you can go on the community of Christ website and under affiliates you'll find the link there as well. So maybe we'll check in with this group of four later on and see how the program is going. And in the meantime for project Scion, I am Karen. Peter, thanks for listening.

Speaker 5: 44:28

Thanks for listening to projects. I am subscribe

Speaker 1: 44:32

to our podcast on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever podcast streaming service you use. And while you're there, give us a five star rating projects. I am podcast is sponsored by latter day seeker ministries of community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are of those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position a letter day seeker ministries or community of Christ. The music has been graciously provided by Dave Hines.

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248 | Crystal Springs at Seminary

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