Extra Shot Episode 32: All Saints Day Part 2 - Common Grounds with Lachlan MacKay

Listen to this part 2 Common Grounds episode about All Saints' Day as Karin Peter talks to Lachlan Mackay.

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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

Katie Langston: 0:17

You're listening to an Extra Shot episode on the Project Zion Podcast, a shorter episode that lets you get your Project Zion fix in between our full length episodes. It might be shorter time wise, but hopefully not in content. So regardless of the temperature at which you prefer your caffeine, sit back and enjoy this extra shot.

Karin Peter: 1:00

We've been talking about All Saints Day and All Saints is fairly new to observing. It's tradition in Community of Christ. I think when we talked with Jane Gardner, she told us that last year was the first time All Saints appeared on our calendar in Community of Christ. And in our worship helps. If you look for 2017, you will find a worship service for All Saints and we encourage everyone to take a look at that on the Community of Christ website. But as we've been talking about all saints and the tradition of remembering those who've gone before and the contributions they've made in Christian community and to our own faith, we thought we might want to talk a little bit about who the saints might be in Community of Christ. Not in a way that we would pray to them for intercession, but rather that we recognize how they've shaped and formed us as a denomination, as a community and in our own discipleship. And to help us with that discussion, we are here today with Lach Mackay. Lach Is the director of Historic Sites for Community of Christ and he also serves as an apostle and as a member of the Council of Twelve. So welcome Lach to Common Grounds. Thrilled to be with you Karin. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself for the listener that may just be tuning in to this episode?

Lach Mackay: 2:34

I was born and raised in Eastern Jackson County, Missouri. My father is Australian. His family joined Community Christ there in the 18 probably 80s. My mom's family signed up in 1830 in upstate New York. And so raised in the tradition, uh, but did not fall in love with it until my early twenties when I signed up for a museum management internship. Landed in Nauvoo, Illinois and then went on to Kirtland, Ohio. So, um, early twenties just became passionate about our story.

Karin Peter: 3:10

So you are married and you have a lovely spouse and you live in Nauvoo now, don't you?

Lach Mackay: 3:18

Yeah. So born and raised in Jackson County, 15 years in Kirkland, Ohio. While living in Kirtland, I met Kristen, my, a spouse in Joseph Smith's Red Brick store in Nauvoo on a visit there.

Karin Peter: 3:30

Okay. There's something kind of weird about that, but okay.

Lach Mackay: 3:34

Spent a number of years together in Kirtland and then we moved to Nauvoo in 2007. So I have never lived in any place that was not significant in church history.

Karin Peter: 3:45

Who would you consider maybe our most prominent candidates for sainthood in the restoration?

Lach Mackay: 3:52

So All Saints Day is new to me, but it turns out I had been thinking about this for many years and the context of heroes from our story heroes from our journey. Not suggesting that that any of the people I'll talk about today were perfect. We're all complex people. I'm capable of great, good and sometimes not so great. Good. So, um, although I've thought of these people as heroes and I really like thinking of them as candidates for sainthood. I recognize that they're just people like you and I. But among my favorite people, the people that I think we can and should learn more about are John Coral. John was in Ashtabula, Ohio in the early 1830s. He heard that his friend Sidney Rigdon had become a Latter Day Saint and John traveled to Kirtland to save him didn't turn out quite as John planned and he soon joined Sydney and the waters of baptism. He was a very, I think, kind of even keeled person and quite talented one account describes John as the architect of Kirtland temple. I don't think he was, I think he supervised the finishing of the building. But whenever we ended up in conflict with neighbors with rare exception, John is the person that we wanted to represent us in those negotiations. He was highly respected with my Latter-day Saints and non Latter-day Saints. Fast forward to far West Missouri. And John began to take exception to the militarism of the church during that period. Uh, he became a dissenter and eventually was warned out and then chased out. He had recent a fear for his safety and he fled our community in the Far West Missouri period. So had been a prominent leader but fled. He was opposed to the Danites again opposed to the, the militarism of that period. He strongly opposed both the suppression of dissent and the church's efforts to beat Ploughshares into swords. And as a result, he was made to feel unwelcome and unsafe after he fled. He was eventually ex-communicated or removed from membership. So most folks would be bitter and angry at that point rather than leaving his persecutors. And I'm embarrassed to say that was us in this case. So rather than leaving his persecutors for their fate, John sold his property and began giving money to the churches poor to help them flee. There's a nice, uh, brief biography of John in a signature title. And John apparently eventually gave$2,100 to nearly 160 needy church families, including those with whom he had significant disagreements. So the people who were driving him out, he is helping them financially as they in turn were being driven from Missouri. And if that wasn't enough, we had previously elected John to represent us in the Missouri state legislature. Despite the way we were treating him. He went to Jefferson city, Missouri to the state Capitol and fought for the very people who were persecuting him, fought to try and protect the rights of our church members after his term in the legislature and the John Coral re-moved to Illinois, he died there in Quincy in 1843 nearly penniless. A hero from our story. I think he is one that, that I would nominate for sainthood.

Karin Peter: 7:58

So how do you see the legacy of John Coral manifest in how Community of Christ, um, lives and expresses our ministries of peacemaking and conflict resolution today? What would his legacy be in that?

Lach Mackay: 8:15

he responded to that section 95 called the turn the other cheek. Not once, not twice, but three times and even more, um, so a model for us in choosing a path other than violence, but we also are called to do our best to abolish poverty and end needless suffering. And that includes a call to compassionate ministries. And I think John models that amazingly well.

Karin Peter: 8:44

So in the, uh, in the Catholic and an Episcopal traditions, you would have Patron Saints and I can see John Coral being the Patron Saint of Peacemaking, the Patron Saint of Almsgiving of a number of things. So a true hero of the restoration. Who else would you nominate for sainthood?

Lach Mackay: 9:06

I would also nominate Alexander Doniphan, who of course was not a Latter-day Saint, but a good friend of the saints. He was an attorney in Missouri and he worked for Latter-day Saints at times defending them. He also ended up being a Missouri state militia men. And he of course, is the person who stepped in when Joseph Smith was court marshaled and sentenced to death after the Mormon war in 1838, Missouri. Doniphan stepped in and told his commanding officer that he believed that that sentence was illegal. Doniphan argued that you cannot court martial somebody who is not in the militia, that it's unconstitutional. Turns out it wasn't until 1866, I think it was Ex parte Milligan, that the Supreme court agreed. So Doniphan was early in that one. But, um, he stepped in and basically told his commanding officer that, uh, if he carried out that sentence of Joseph Smith was executed, Doniphan would hold him accountable for murder. So saved Joseph, uh, and, and community Christ. We have honored Alexander Doniphan for his, um, his protection of Joseph by naming Lake Doniphan in a retreat center, one of our, our reunion grounds in Excelsior Springs, Missouri after him. So Alexander Doniphan would also get my vote even though he's outside the tradition, but I don't care. I'm going to claim him.

Karin Peter: 10:38

Well, clay ma'am for that, for Alexander Doniphan, there's also a town named Doniphan in Southern Missouri. So we have a two gentleman who you've named as a possible saints of the restoration. Do you have any women who had fallen into that category for you?

Lach Mackay: 10:55

We do have women and I have to start with one of my favorite, actually not one of my favorites. My favorite, uh, Emma Hale Smith Bidamon. I'm a big fan of team Emma. I love Emma's story and I think she models for us in so many ways a Christ like life being the hands and feet of Jesus. An amazing, amazing woman. She had, u m, she had, Joseph had 11 children, nine of their own Intuit a dopted. And of those only five made it to adulthood. I sometimes wonder if that's why Emma didn't fill her home with the motherless. U m, she was constantly taking i nto orphans and I would love to see somebody start compiling a list of all of the children that Joseph and Emma and then Emma took in. And she did that throughout her life. Her home was always open, not just t he children, but of course she also often supplemented their living by running a boarding house. But with the children, it was clearly not that. It was more than that. Um, Emma, um, modeled what we're called to do in healing. Those who hurt. A great example of that is right after the latter day saints arrive in 1839 WGU malaria is raging through the community. Something like 17% of the people who die in 1840s Nauvoo die of malaria. August and September are the dying months. Apparently it gets worse as you get into the summer. The frost hits, the mosquitoes are killed, things called down and then it would start again the next spring. But by the fall of 1839, Emma had taken in as many as 12 people sick with malaria and she's trying to nurse them back to health. She only has two rooms in her house. The 12 people, two rooms. Joseph is gone for much of that. He's gone to Washington DC to meet with us. President Martin Van Buren and asked for help after being driven from Missouri. It is so crowded in the Smith home in Nauvoo that Emma has to move the family into a tent in the yard to make room for the sick. So a wonderful example of helping those who hurt Emma also tried to instill in her children and was successful, I believe, especially with Joseph Smith the Third of the call to be peacemakers. Joseph The Third in his memoirs talks about, he signed up for a little while with something called Bailey's Boys Troops. They were a children's auxiliary to the Nauvoo Legion of the state militia, but he said that he soon worked his way out of Bailey's Boys Troops. He believed because his mother was not a fan, Emma was not a fan of having a children involved. And that am I also of course stood up for the marginalized and those at risk, including in her opposition to plural marriage. It's a really complex and painful topic. But my own take is that Emma I think was probably convinced by Joseph that initially it's only a spiritual union. I think she probably went along with it for a huge short seconds and then came to realize at some point that perhaps it was more complex than that. And she became a significant opponent of plural marriage. Most of the source material on polygamy on plural marriage is decades after the fact. And I just don't trust much of it. Um, because we're all so emotional about the topic that I just don't think you can pay much attention to most of those sources. There are a few sources from the time though William Clayton, who was described for Joseph as writing about plural marriage and Emma at the time. And he describes Hyrum who was opposed to plural marriage, but convinced by Brigham Young it was of God Hyrum saying to Joseph, if you'll just have a revelation, I'll take it to Emma and I can convince her that it's good. Joseph said, I don't think so. Hyrum but Hyrum was pretty sure he could do it, so they give it a try. This apparently happens upstairs in the Red Brick Store in Nauvoo and Joseph's office. Joseph dictates, um, William Clayton. The scribe writes that down. What would become LDS section 132, on plural marriage. They had the document to Hyrum, off he goes quickly to return and say, Hey, I've never had a worse talking to in all my life. I don't know whether the laugh or cry, but Emma, it seems fairly quickly begin to use the Nauvoo female Relief Society to battle plural marriage as well. Now the, the, the purpose of the society was to find jobs for the widows and food for the poor. And they did that with Emma Smith as President, but they also were tasked with upholding the virtues of the community. And I believe that Emma interpreted that to mean to, to try and stamp out plural marriage or polygamy. This again is really complex. I think there's decent evidence to suggest that she was almost successful. I think there's decent evidence to suggest that prior to Joseph's death, he decided that thorough marriage wasn't such a good idea and was trying to figure out how to extricate himself. William Law says that, that Hiram came to him and said, we've stopped law, didn't believe him. William Marks says that, Joseph came to him and says, I thought it was a great idea. I now believe it's a mistake. Let's try and get it stopped. And when you really read the last meeting of the Relief Society, those minutes and saying we should listen to what our leaders are saying publicly and if they are truly repentant, we should forgive them. I think that's another piece of that puzzle. But I think Emma trying to stand up in a very difficult and challenging time for the women of the community.

Karin Peter: 17:00

Can you tell us a little bit about what Emma's life was like after Joseph and Hyrum were killed and she stayed in Nauvoo?

Lach Mackay: 17:11

Emma stayed in Nauvoo after Joseph's death. Initially things calm down. They had been renting the mansion house or leasing their home to Ebenezer Robinson. So Emma and Joseph lived in it, but Robinson ran the, the hotel part. Um, Joseph's killed fairly quickly. Robinson subleases to William Marks and Emma moves back to the homestead. Their first Nauvoo home. It's just diagonally across the street from the mansion. It was from there though that is things heated up again Emma fled in September of 1846 as the battle of Nauvoo was breaking out. I don't use the term mobs lightly, but I think this group really was. They came in with cannons to drive the last of the Latter-day Saints out a group called new citizens, non Latter-day Saints who had moved into Nauvoo to buy empty homes and businesses join with remaining the Latter-day Saints. They're fighting back and had some improvised cannons as well. So Emma flees with her children, they get on the Steamboat Toby and steam up river to Fulton, Illinois. Emma had family in the area. After a few months though, maybe five months, she got word that the person she had leased or hotel to by that time, mr Ventool was about to steal all her furniture once the river thought and he could sail south with a flat boat. So she rushed back, caught him evicted him, moved back into the mansion. While Emma was in Fulton. She got a letter from a man named Lewis Bidamon inquiring as to whether or not she might be willing to lease the mansion to him and his brother to run the hotel. You know, Mr Van Tool was already in there, so she wasn't quite sure how to handle that. But that might have been one of their earliest communications. But my sense is they probably knew each other. Even earlier. Lewis had been a leader of the new citizens. He had been one of the leaders of the group fighting to protect remaining Latter-day Saints. We often forget that about him, that, that he was fighting to protect those who remained in Nauvoo. And it's possible that they even met earlier than that. There's a newspaper interview decades later where Lewis describes going to Nauvoo with a friend who was a phenologist, the people who would look at bumps on your head and believe that they could tell things about your personality. Lewis went with a friend and they apparently did a reading on Joseph, so this is even before Joseph's assassination. Um, possible that he even met Emma that early. So pre June of'44, but at any rate that letters strikes up the correspondence, um, they eventually start courting. There's some great stories about their courting together. Uh, Joseph, the third in his memoirs describes Lewis who was apparently a very dapper kind of a fancy dresser. Lewis came calling one day. He looks up and they're in the second floor window is Emma with young Joseph the Third beside her. Lewis takes off his top hat does this really stiff formal bow to Emma as he stands back up, he runs into the clothesline and knocks his toupee off. Emma married him anyway. And when you read their letters, it's clear that this was not a marriage of convenience. There, there really was love in this marriage. Um, Lewis again, we remember often his struggles. He drank too much, like many, including getting in the church did at the time. Um, but he in many ways had a lot of, I think personality traits similar to Joseph's. He was incredibly generous. If you were hungry, there was always room at Lewis table for you. He had a great sense of humor. He loved playing jokes on people, tricks on people. Uh, if you visited Lewis and Emma's he kept a pet bat on the mantle above the fireplace. It was a cigar box with holes drilled into it so the bat could breathe, but you'd get really intrigued by this bat. And finally he popped up in the box. There was a big chunk of red brick, which of course is a brick bat. His pet bat. He told stories to visitors to Nauvoo of tunnels, dug into the limestone from the Nabu house across the river or from the Mansion House to the temple a mile away. There's a newspaper editor who says, you know, Lewis is telling tales. Again, some people object, but I say that if the visitors are foolish, foolish enough to believe them, they deserve what they get. But there are still people looking for those tunnels in Nauvoo today because of these stories that Lewis told. So, um, I think in many ways you know, again cared deeply about the impoverished great sense of humor, kind of advanced the dresser. But he also had his challenges and maybe the biggest challenge for Emma and Lewis, when Emma was 59, Lewis had an affair and father to child. After a number of years, the mom came to Emma and suggested that she couldn't care for Charlie, the little boy anymore, and asked Emma if she might take him. And this is according to the Biden and family tradition. And Emma did. She raised Charlie as her own and Charlie left affidavit's talking about the kindness of them at to him. That's setting the bar pretty high. I'm not suggesting that everybody said, Oh, this is Lewis's was a legitimate child. Welcome to the home. Um, a that Joseph a third said, there was never any discussion about that. My sense is that, that the family understood that though. And prior to Emma's death, she apparently asked Louis if after her death that she Le wis w ould marry Nancy, the mother, so that Charlie would continue to have both the mother and a father. And Le wis d i d. I'm a huge fan of Emma modeling in s o many ways what we think of as our mission initiatives. She's a peacemaker. She cares deeply about those who are suffering, again, filling her home with orphans. I'm a little worried though that in recent years as the broader Latter-day Saint tradition has started to rediscover Emma and a B r acer that we've almost started to do to let at times was done to Joseph in the past, put her on the pedestal as if he could do no wrong. And Emma, of course just like the rest of us is complex and I'm sure had her ch allenges as well.

Karin Peter: 24:04

But as a Saint of the Restoration and the Reorganization, we can see the traits that Emma has passed on to Community of Christ, um, in our everyday expression of how we are. In fact, we often refer to ourselves as Emma's church in a kind of loving a tribute to her. You said earlier that she was a caretaker of the motherless. And so it made me think of a patron patron Saint of the motherless and physical and emotional, uh, motherless in a way. So do you have any other saints that you'd like to share with us?

Lach Mackay: 24:48

I do. We've touched on Emma and her impact on her children. So of course have to talk about Joseph Smith, the third who I think was profoundly impacted by Emma, including kind of, or even temperament. Emma at one point suggested that if Joseph, her husband, late husband, had better understood the law, that things would've gone better for him. So Joseph Smith the Third studied law in Kenton, Illinois as a young man, grew up to be a justice of the peace in Nauvoo and he inherited both Emma and Joseph's desire to help those on the fringes on the margins. So Joseph Smith the Third is elected justice of the peace in Nauvoo in 1857. It's kind of a combination. Sheriff and judge starts serving in 1858. He then joins with the Reorganization in 1860 and the locals are not amused. They are basically, um, they pass resolutions town township by township forbidding Joseph the Third from preaching or praying in their townships. Now that that's highly problematic. Joseph the Third knew it. He demanded that they signed the resolutions and they were afraid to, they didn't. So he ignored them. What about his business? But in that fairly heated climate, Joseph the Third eventually has to run for reelection. He knows he's in trouble. He wins in what he calls a landslide. I think that's maybe 13 votes and other than politics, but here's why he wanted, he said by the early 1860s, almost everybody living in Nauvoo was some kind of immigrant, some kind of Germanic people. Germany, Austrian, Swiss. Joseph the third said that as justice of the peace, he believed those people were being taken advantage of because of their lack of familiarity with our language and customs, he said. So to try and protect them, he often did their legal for free. So helping those on the margins, those most at risk. He also years later ran into a man named Thomas Sharp, sitting in the shade of the Carthage, Illinois courthouse. Carthage, the County seat of Hancock County. Um, Joseph the Third recognize this man as the newspaper editor from the 1840s of the Warsaw Signal. And if any one person is most responsible for the death of Joseph and Hyrum, it's Thomas Sharp. He had called for the use of powder and ball to be rid of the Mormon problem. And one account has him pulling a trigger at Carthage. Joseph the Third saw him. He recognized him, said, good morning. That's the end of it. That's it. But when some of our church members found out that Joseph the Third had dared to speak to the man responsible for the death of his father, they got angry. You know, you're, you're an embarassment. How dare you? Well, that made Joseph a Third really angry. He published a letter in The Saints Herald, our newspaper at the time. And the article is called Required to Forgive. And in that article he made it abundantly clear that he forgave Thomas Sharp for any culpability he had in the death of his father and uncle Joseph. The third explained that any judgment to be had was for the hereafter. It was not his place to judge. And he said, we remember that our blessed Lord, our living exemplary when suffering from the cruel payings inflicted upon him to his death, lifted his heart to his father and said, forgive them. They know not what they do. And again, made it clear that we were all called to do the same. Like his mother, setting the bar pretty high.

Karin Peter: 28:44

Definitely. So Joseph Smith the Third as would be probably beyond the Saint in the Reorganization as he's the first Prophet President of the Reorganization. So moving from the Restoration to Reorganization who might be nominated for sainthood out of that experience from 1860 at a forward.

Lach Mackay: 29:10

Okay, I'm going to jump well ahead and across the Atlantic to somebody that I knew as uncle Frank. Frank Edwards, he's a young Englishman, 1916, World War One is raging. Frank is a member of the Reorganization of Community of Christ in England. He's drafted and he refuses to serve. He knows that if drafted and fighting, he might well end up across the battlefield from a fellow Christian and he might be required to spill the blood of a brother in Christ and he simply couldn't do it. He refused to serve. He's court-martial. And as part of his hearing, he's asked, okay, so you won't fight. Uh, how about we put you on a Minesweeper? And he apparently said, well, I'll be happy to serve on a Minesweeper as long as I can sweep English mines as well as German. But that didn't go so well in the hearing. He is convicted and sentenced to a prison and he served a number of years before being released at the end of the war. So, um, uncle Frank, a better known as F Henry Edwards, a member of the Community of Christ First Presidency for many years. And some would argue one of the brightest minds in the 20th century church

Karin Peter: 30:44

And is still quoted today. In fact, oft quoted today in many of our congregational Sunday school experiences, you'll hear references to F Henry and that's who they're talking about. As you mentioned, uncle Frank. One more, um, potential Saint of the reorganization HELOC, who would you nominate?

Lach Mackay: 31:09

So I'm going to go with Ed Guy. If there was such a thing as an a Community of Christ Jesuit, it's Ed Guy. Much of what I know of Ed came from Dr. Richard Troeh, a friend of Ed's. So Ed was born in 1934 in Santa Monica, California. Unlike F Henry Edwards, Ed served in the U S army in this case from 1952 to 1955 and then in order to fund his education at Graceland University. Ed worked in construction. He was a lager, worked on fishing boats in Alaska and he worked as a forest fire fighter or smoke jumper in Idaho. He went on to get a master's degree in social work in Kansas City and eventually worked in Central America in some of the poorest areas in some of the poorest cities in some of the poorest countries. And he devoted his life to laboring as a social worker, development expert, advocate missionary and pastor in Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and elsewhere. Ed often went hungry so that others might be fed. He built houses for the homeless while having no place to lay his own head. He worked to teach the sick how to find health care in their own countries and he put his own life in jeopardy to search for the disappeared ones who were swallowed up in political turmoil and he later worked trying to find children who had been stolen from their families and some of those political conflicts. When Ed walked the streets of the places he offered ministry, hundreds of people would call out to him by name. Following the heart attack, Ed died in Guatemala in September of 2001 there was a wonderful tribute to Ed Guy written by Dale SchmalJohn who had worked with Ed decades earlier as a smoke jumper. Dale called the tribute White Boots, not for the color but for the brand. What Dale said that as a smoke jumper, every fire fighter had a pair of white boots, every firefighter but Ed and according to Dale, there was only one reason that Ed didn't have them. They cost too much. Dale describes ad as never buying anything that he didn't absolutely have to have and even then always buying used. He was a very careful steward of his resources so that the surplus could go to those in need. I need to verify this, but according to Dale, at one point, the church made the mistake of giving ed a car to help with his ministries. According to Dale, ed sold the car and gave them money to the poor. I'm kind of summarizing his life. Ed had a heart attack at one point, way up in the Honduran mansion mountains and he lay on a cot for about a month thinking that he would die at any time. He said that he thought about his life knowing that all he had to do was let go and his life would be over. This is a SchmalJohn quote."I questioned how God would grade my life. I'm sorry, it's SchmalJohn quoting Ed, I questioned how God would grade my life and decided if I died then I had probably earned a D, Ed said, I thought maybe I should let go and take the D before I really screwed up."

Karin Peter: 34:51

That's a great quote.

Lach Mackay: 34:53

Uh, Ed Guy, a Jesuit and definitely a candidate for sainthood

Karin Peter: 34:58

And the patron Saint of missionaries. And having heard at Guy's stories in my growing up, um, I would agree with you about his ministry and contribution to Community of Christ. So I want to thank you Lach for sharing these stories with us. As we've talked about with All Saints, one of the ways traditionally that All Saints is observed is with the reading of the beatitudes. And so to close our discussion today, I'm just going to read the beatitudes from the him, the beatitudes, which is actually sung to the tune Ode to Joy, which we're not going to do, but we'll close with these words. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for God's kingdom shall be theirs. Blessed are those who mourn with grieving. They of God shall be the heirs. They shall not be lost, forsaken, but shall comfort, full receive. God will bless them with his mercy and their every fear, relief. Blessed are the meek and lowly God shall give them of the earth. Blessed are they who thirst for rightness. God shall slake the hungering. God shall bless the ones whose mercy mirrors his abundant grace. God will bless them now forevermore. They in heaven shall have a place. So again, thank you for visiting with us about All Saints and Community of Christ saints and hopefully we'll continue this with some other history experts in community of Christ who can share with us on this topic. So thank you for listening to the episode. I'm Karen Peter here with Lach Mackay and this is common grounds part of the Project Zion podcast. Stay tuned, our next episode we'll be talking about the coming Advent season.

Speaker 1: 37:05

Thanks for listening to Project Zion podcast. Subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Stitcher or whatever podcast streaming service you use. And while you are there, give us a five star rating projects. Project Zion Podcast is sponsored by Latter-day Seeker Ministries of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are of those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Latter-day Seeker Ministries or Community of Christ. The music has been graciously provided by Dave Heinze.

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Extra Shot Episode 32: All Saints Day Part 2 - Common Grounds with Lachlan MacKay

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