In this episode, you'll hear Dan Reiland, Executive Pastor of 12Stone Church, share how to lead through crisis and how to be a confident leader.
Episode Summary:
About Dan Reiland:
Dan Reiland is Executive Pastor at 12Stone Church in Lawrenceville, Georgia. He previously partnered with John Maxwell for 20 years, first as Executive Pastor at Skyline Wesleyan Church in San Diego, then as Vice President of Leadership and Church Development at INJOY.
Dan is best known as a leader with a pastor’s heart and a coach’s instincts. He truly loves the local church, and is described as one of the nation’s most innovative church thinkers. His passion is developing and empowering leaders who want to grow, are willing to take risks, and enjoy the journey.
Links Mentioned:
Amplified Leadership by Dan Reiland
The Confident Leader by Dan Reiland
In this episode, you'll hear Dan Reiland, Executive Pastor of 12Stone Church, share how to lead through crisis and how to be a confident leader.
Episode Summary:
About Dan Reiland:
Dan Reiland is Executive Pastor at 12Stone Church in Lawrenceville, Georgia. He previously partnered with John Maxwell for 20 years, first as Executive Pastor at Skyline Wesleyan Church in San Diego, then as Vice President of Leadership and Church Development at INJOY.
Dan is best known as a leader with a pastor’s heart and a coach’s instincts. He truly loves the local church, and is described as one of the nation’s most innovative church thinkers. His passion is developing and empowering leaders who want to grow, are willing to take risks, and enjoy the journey.
Links Mentioned:
Amplified Leadership by Dan Reiland
The Confident Leader by Dan Reiland
Self leaders hip is the essence of character development. I think that's, if I had to say it in a sentence or two I'd start there, that that self leadership is the core of character development. You can develop it in that way. And then second, you know, you really can't lead others. If you can't first lead yourself.
Doug Smith:This is the L3 leadership podcast, episode number 257. What's up everyone. And welcome to another episode of the L3 leadership podcast, where we are obsessed with helping you grow to your maximum potential and to maximize the impact of your leadership. My name is Doug Smith and I am your host. And in today's episode, you'll hear my interview with Dan Reiland. If you're unfamiliar with Dan, let me just tell you a little bit about him. Dan Reiland is the executive pastor at 12 stone church and Lawrenceville Georgia. He previously partnered with John Maxwell for 20 years versus an executive pastor at skyline Wesleyan church in San Diego. And then as vice president of leadership and church development at enjoy, Dan is best known as a leader with a pastor's heart and a coaches instincts. He truly loves the local church and is described as one of the nation's most innovative church thinkers. His passion is developing and empowering leaders who want to grow are willing to take risks and enjoy the journey. And I've been wanting to interview Dan for a long time. I've been following his work since I was a teenager. I first learned about him through John Maxwell, as you all know, I'm a huge John fan. And, it was an honor to be able to, to sit down and interview Dan. And in the interview, we talk about leading through crisis. We talk about his brand new book, the confident leader, which is absolutely excellent. And of course, we take them through the lightning round. This was such a fun interview. You're going to get so much out of this, but before we dive into the interview, just a few announcements. This episode of the podcast is sponsored by Beratung advisors, the financial advisors at Beratung advisors, help educate and empower clients to help make informed financial decisions. Find out how Beratung advisors can help you develop a customized financial plan for your financial future. Please visit their website at Beratung advisors. That's beratungadvisors.com, securities and investment products and services offered through Waddell and Reed, inc member FINRA, and SIPC Beratung advisors, Waddell and Reed and LT. Leadership are separate entities. Hey leader, we tell you all the time here at L3 leadership that you should never do life alone, but in community. And that's why I want to challenge every single one of you to become a member of L3 leadership. When you become a member of L3 leadership, you all have access to our community of leaders who are willing to encourage you, support you and hold you accountable for going after your goals. You'll have access to monthly live webinars that we do with nationally known leaders, monthly Q and a and hot seat hours for our members where you can troubleshoot the issues that you're having with your goal and get live real time feedback on them to help you develop a plan to overcome those issues. You'll have access to every course that we ever create. You'll have access to every three, one day talk we've ever had and so much more. And all this is available for just$25 a month. In fact, we believe so much in the product that we are willing to give you your first month for just$1 that's right. If you sign up today@ l3leadership.org, your first month of membership is just$1 leader. Don't grow another minute without having a community of leaders to which you can go to and grow with sign up today@l3leadership.org. And with all that being said, let's dive right into the interview. Here's my interview with Dan Reiland or Dan it's an honor to have you on the podcast. You've been on my bucket list to interview for many, many years. So it's an honor that this would actually happen. And thank you for giving us your time this morning. And why don't we just start off with you telling the audience a little bit about who you are and what you do,
Dan Reiland:Who am I? Well, I think essentially a, just a dad and a husband and, but for, for my career, for the last 39 years, I've been a pastor and I love it working first with John Maxwell. Now, then it actually closely with Andy Stanley, but, u h, not as on staff, but actually as a board member there for a while. And now with K evin Myers, 19 years here as executive pastor, which is what I've done for a long, long time, u h, actually moving a little bit more toward what they're calling chief of staff as we're raising up the next generation of younger guys, the younger cooler versions of me, u h, which is the right thing to do, and I'm having a blast doing it. So that's a quick snapshot. Oh, and I guess I should tell you my wife and I now have our first grandchild, a little girl, and we are pumped. I t's keeping us even younger than we already are.
Doug Smith:Oh, that's awesome. Hey, while you just mentioned it because you know, this was in my notes for the interview, but can you talk a little bit about that transition from executive pastor to chief of staff? What does that look like? Because there's probably organizations who are clearly thinking through succession right now. I'm just curious why the, why the shift and what are you doing?
Dan Reiland:Well, my, the shift is a narrowing of if I had three, obviously everybody has 27 things that they do, right. But, but if you focus it down to the three big rocks, the three big buckets that I've done for many, many years, one is obviously all things staff. And then second is ministry architecture, you know, ministry design, what we do, what we don't do in ministry. Is it working? Is it not working? How do we make it better? That kind of a thing. And then church wide leadership development, all that kind of thing. So we're, we're raising up and just have actually just named a, the young XP, who's taking a great deal of that. And so I'm shifting now more to all things staff, which is allowing me to focus on going deeper and deeper layers of primarily there's about five categories, but primarily in the areas of culture and development. And so that's my great, that's the core of my great passion anyways, to get the culture right, and develop the leaders. And so I get to focus there more, maybe more a coach than a tactical and strategic kind of a thing.
Doug Smith:Okay. Well maybe I'll get to pick your brain on that a little bit later. Um, I want to dive into just leading through crisis and you know, right now we're in the middle of COVID-19 and there's so much going on, but this certainly isn't the first crisis you've ever led through. And, um, and leaders who are leading today, this won't be the last crisis we ever lead through. So I just want to talk about Specifically leading through crisis and just big picture Learning and seeing when it comes to leading through crisis for leaders.
Dan Reiland:Yeah. I love that question. It's so it's so big. I think, I think when I think when I think about leading crisis, it's like the difference between leading and wartime and leading in peace time. They're there it's that dramatic. And I think we have so little experience leading and wartime. We're maybe not so good at it. And one of the things that I'm seeing, I'm watching myself and leaders around me and around the country is it's really important to know if your tendency is to overplay it or underplay it to overlead or underlaid. And because we all have a why we all have a bent, we all go to that one side or another. I'm a classic underplay. My wiring is it's going to be okay, we're going to be fine. You're going to be, you know, we're going to, and the over plants are, we're all going to die, you know, kind of a thing. Um, but it's important to know which one you are in crisis. I'll tell you a fun sort story. Um, I had taken my, my inlaws, my, my father law, 85 years old, he loves baseball. It took him to a baseball game for his birthday, took the whole family. And third and eight were rained out is pouring rain. I mean, it's dark, it's black outside the clouds. It's raining. And I didn't want the whole family to have to go, uh, you know, 200 yards or a hundred yards away in the rain to the car. So if you guys stay here, I'll go get the car, I'll pull it up. And you guys, you guys, right, you guys jumped in. And of course I wasn't the only one who had that idea, there was a long line of cars lined up and it was dark. It was raining. And so I pulled up and my door opened, my door opened and this lady got in my car. I've never seen in my life before. She just got in my car and sat in the passenger seat. And she starts just like crushing the water and the rain. And she's like, Oh my gosh, the rain and this went on for like three or four or five seconds. That's a long time. But this woman, you don't know, sitting in your car as a long time. And so she was brushing the water off and finally she could sort of feel something right. And she just turns her slowly to me. And I just looked around her and I said, wrong car. And her response was curdling scream. It was unbelievable. And the door flings open and she kind of ran off into the darkness. And that, that was the end of the story is which one who, who in the story was the one who is the underplay. And who's the one who overplayed it. Obviously I'm the underplay guy, like I'm wrong car. Like somebody is going to kill her, you know? And I tell that funny story, because if I want, it's a fun story. But, um, uh, I think in leadership, all of us have a bias to one side or another. And, and let's say, you know, you and will, or one of you as a CEO, I want to use the COO. And one of you underplays, and one of you overplays, it's really important that, you know, who's who and which is which, and, and when you know, personally about yourself, you know, how to gear up or pull back accordingly. So that's one thing that watching I can give you another one, but I don't want to keep talking too long.
Doug Smith:Oh, that's really good. I've never really thought through that lens before. Um, I guess organizationally, would you, do you see that the CEO COO is that, is that typical? You see those two having different responses? I'm just curious.
Dan Reiland:Definitely, definitely. Typically partners and exec teams and senior leadership teams you'll have, if it's healthy, you'll have a good mixture of all that. And you'll have all those different personalities in play. And, um, it's, it's, it's like a good sport scene. You need to know who's Kevin and I make really great decisions. Um, he would be, he's more a bet, the farm all in, you know, even financially. And I'm more, let's think this through a little bit for a minute and then I'm, let's go, let's go. Let's go. But because he, and I know that about each other, we make really good decisions because he would say if we did, if we, if we did his thought immediately that the whole time who knows what would happen if we, it would, it would be too much. If we did mine, it might not always be enough. We know that, and I'm not talking about compromise or bays or committee or in the middle or anything like that. But there's a wisdom that finds its place when you understand your wiring and the team and who you are and how you leave. One of the thing that I'm seeing. And that's enough. I know we have a lot of good questions here, but in terms of crisis, people don't expect you to have all the answers. That's one of the things I'm hearing a lot is I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. COVID COVID, you know, and we don't, we don't know that people don't, the people you lead, the people you're responsible for. They don't expect you to have all the answers. What they do want though is the next step. They do expect you to know the next step. They do want a sense of direction. Uh, for example, in my world, I can only speak mostly about my world is, uh, the, uh, they don't want all the details about how the church will reopen, but they want a date that you'll give them the next step, give them what's the next piece that they do want that. Um, and they really even want all the details, but give them the next step. I think those are a couple of things that come to mind and leading in crisis.
Doug Smith:I think that's so good. And, uh, obviously no one knows what, what people are calling the new normal is going to look like on the other side of this crisis. But it does seem like on the other side of every major crisis, there is a new normal, can you just speak to leaders today who are in the middle of this? What can they do to maximize, uh, Opportunities before them and moving into the new normal so that they make sure they don't get left behind?
Dan Reiland:Yup. Yup. That's it. That's a great question. And I'm going to use a couple of words that maybe seem like, yeah, yeah. We've heard that before, but I really want to emphasize them. And that is our receptivity, my receptivity, or receptivity to adaptation and innovation more, more than ever before. I know it's not a new idea, but right now it's new because we're moving so fast and culture is changing so fast and we've all been, see, I think we've all been forced to adapt quickly. Like we just, you know, no one would have ever have said, you can have church when you, when you don't have a church building, you know, what do you mean? Close the doors. You can't, you can't do that and have church. Oh yes, you can. And then after that had happened, they said, well, okay, we can have church with the church closed, but you can't have children's ministries in student ministries online. Well, yeah, you can. And so, uh, but here's not what we're learning. So the adaptation was forced, but here's the key. Now the opportunity is we're moving from forest adaptation to intentional adaptation and innovation. What I mean by that is we've now learned. We're now learning that while online church worked, it's now starting to not work, meaning it's having a shelf life. The attendance sword churches were having in the beginning, greater attendances that than they've ever had before people fell in love with going to church in their, in their jammies needing pancakes. Right. I mean, they love it and now it's dropping off as rapidly as it was climbing. So we're being forced to adapt again. And I think what we're coming out of that is, um, adaptation now has to move to innovation. And I think that's the opportunity. That's the opportunities. And I kind of hesitate from saying what it is because every community is different. Every church is different. Every cultures, you know, it's gotta be what fits your context.
Doug Smith:And I'm just curious how you guys process this, uh, adapting in the middle of crisis. Um, what is your cadence look like? Is it, Hey, we're going to gather the top leaders in our organization every single day and just brainstorm. Uh, how do you guys also make decisions in those meetings? Who do you decide? How do you decide who is in the room? I'm just curious how you guys
Dan Reiland:Yeah. Price that we set up, you know, our normal rhythm was the executive team and others, uh, a couple of T two times a month. And we, uh, we switched that to every week plus what we every Tuesday morning at 10 30 or one 30 afternoon now. Yeah. So it's every week and it's three hours long and it's intense and it's moving and changing. Plus what we call quick connects our culture is really, really good at quick connects, meaning texting and quick calls and, you know, filling in the gap. So that's the exact team that meets there. However, we have a very, very fluid process that is not based on who's in the club or what line you are on an org chart. So almost every meeting, we have a number of other leaders from the organization, anywhere in the organization, based on the agenda, not where you are on the org chart, who needs to speak into the issue. And every, you know, there may be, people are coming and going from the meeting, according to the agenda, which really helps him. So we're adapting and switching and moving as quick as, as quick as we're required to move.
Doug Smith:Wow. So it sounds like you guys have been able to adapt and adjust and you'll continue to do so. Uh, however I know also in crisis crisis has the ability to take a lot of leaders out. There's a lot of leaders listening to this who are currently leading through crisis and they're just getting hit hard and maybe they feel like giving up. Can you just encourage the leaders who are struggling to, to adapt and adjust and grow through crisis? What would you tell them?
Dan Reiland:I talked about the challenges they face are ones that are just kind of in a darker place that is kind of more difficult. I mean, which, where are you, what are you thinking? Talk to both? Well,
Doug Smith:Well, one at a time you could separate them.
Dan Reiland:Yeah. We can separate them, but we can, you know, I'm just kinda thinking, cause that's a, you ask really, really great questions and, um, they deserve fought, but you know, I think it starts with maybe challenges. Um, and then sometimes when the challenges get, get overwhelming, we can get into a very discouraged place and we can go there in a minute if you want to. But I think, I think the one that's a little bit, a little bit obvious, but maybe not as you can, we can no longer on the challenge side. We can no longer predict the predictable. Um, now no one knows the future. No one, no one can, no one has a crystal ball, but there are some things that are predictable human behavior, things that would normally happen. If we leave this way, this will happen. If we encourage this way, this will happen. That's kind of gone at least right now. Um, it it's people's lives have been changed. There's a little bit of a lot. I don't know how much of fear in the culture fear either with health fear about economics, uh, at, at 12 stone, uh, our, our senior senior Johnny pastor Kevin Myers, he kind of introduced this kind of, he introduced this idea of a stoplight imagery of a red, yellow, green, and, uh, in terms of how come back to church, they're the green lights. They're the ones that, you know, I'm running back to open the doors, I'm running back to church. I don't need a mask. I need a hug. You know what I mean? That's, that's the green light and the yellow light, you know, I'm, I'm not running back, I'm walking back and I want a mask and I want to know that you've got this thing safe for me and my family and the red light is, I'm not sure I'm coming back. And maybe I will, maybe I won't, I've got some concerns about all this stuff. And, uh, and so, you know, that alone has made what was predictable, for example, who might, who might not come back to church and when to you really don't know. And so the, I think the practical thing is coming out of that, you know, you don't want to just give the discouragement. No, no. What do you do about it? Right? Is we've got to listen better than we've ever listened before. Wow. I think all, I think all good leaders listened, but I think we better listen better than we've ever listened before. Um, there's other things we could talk about, especially in terms of economic realities, um, connecting that to a, do you overplay or underplay, but let me go to that to the, where you might've started in the Indigo. Um, I think for leaders who are really discouraged, or this is just getting, getting to you and I get that, man, I get this. It's like one thing after another thing after another, and maybe you don't have a lot of help. I think the first thing to, to hold on to really hold onto is that no crisis is ever permanent history tells us no crisis is ever permanent. You're going to get through this. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but you're going to get through this, which then leads to, I think a really strong, important point is you're going to get through it, but you can't hide going through it. You can't duck, you can't cover up. And just kind of, when it blows over, you'll get back in. You've got to go through it. You've got to lean into it. You've got to embrace it. Or you're going to, I'll be really blunt. You're going to get buried by it. And, and then the third thing I would say is ask for help. There's somebody that can help you. There's there's a don't, don't try to do this by yourself. There's somebody nearby. There's a, there's someone in your church or someone in your company, somebody in your business, there's somebody nearby. They'll help you just get somebody to talk to you. Don't do this in isolation. That's what I would say.
Doug Smith:That's so good, Dan. Um, I want to go back to something that you said I thought was so brilliant. The way you just leaders need to listen. Like they've never listened before. Can you talk to leaders about listening?
Dan Reiland:Yep. Uh, yeah. You know, and it's not that leaders don't want to listen. It's that sometimes we just go so fast, you have so much pressure and you've got so much going on and, and by nature, not all leaders, but by nature, most are kind of type a or, I mean, that's not true, but they're, they're, they're, they're moving. And so sometimes we think we're listening and we're not, and slowing down is. And so I think it's almost a life change thing, a cultural change to slow down. We sort of learned a little bit about that in, you know, shelter, shelter, you know, what's the phrase shelter in place. My mind, doesn't say shelter place. My mind says I have to stay home. You know, shelter in place. I've never quite got that. But then he's like, you can't leave your house that I get. And so we've been practicing doing something at home. That's more difficult than we thought. And, and we're seeing what slowing down could look like, um, even in our, in our home. And so one of the things I'll give you one practical example, uh, at 12 stone, we're not a big survey culture. We're not really big on, well, let's see what 10,000 people think or let's see what 200 people think. Not that we don't want to know we do, but because we have a high sense of integrity about a survey. And number one, if you take a survey, you need to tell people the results. And number two, if you take a survey, you need to do something about it. You, you need to have the integrity. You can't just gather information from people and then don't tell them what it was. I don't do anything about it. So we take that real serious. And we're engaging now in the first time, have a little more survey work. And what do you think and w where are you at and what are you doing? And to me, that's a form of listening. And then we sit down and have deeper conversations to say, tell us more. Um, we need to understand more, especially, even if we add into the issue now, the racial injustice, it's tell us more. We need to understand more where we're listening better than we ever have. Yeah,
Doug Smith:It's so good. And it's such a challenge to leaders. Thank you for that, Dan. Um, I want to shift a little bit and talk about your brand new book. I'm holding enough called the confident leader. Uh, as soon as I saw the title of this, I'm like, yep. I need to buy that now. Um, fantastic book. And, um, I have several questions around it, but the first one is deleters really struggle with confidence. Like, why would it, why would anyone need to write this book? Dan, tell me about that
Dan Reiland:Yes, yes they did. And now not, not in a debilitating way that, you know, they turtle up and they go home. And, but, but in, but in a way that when the chips are down, um, they don't always, and the pressures up, um, they just don't always function at their best and they miss out on their best. And here's the thing. You, you don't really notice it or see it maybe in a day or a week or a couple of months. And that's one of the benefits I have of leading as long as I have is, um, I get to coach and what be around leaders that I've known literally for decades. And so I can see it with a wider view in a longer of you. And it's over a long period of time where it's barely in perceptible, barely up, barely perceptible in the short run, it's obvious in the long one where you're just not operating at your best. And over the years it takes its toll. So, so, so why did I write the book? I wrote it because I interact with, with these leaders, with men and women and, and they, they, uh, experienced more of what I call a rollercoaster confidence. It goes, it's, it's ups and downs, according to performance and, and, and out external things around them. Um, you know, in the church world, one of the obvious external performance things is your attendance on a Sunday. Um, and in business it could be sales. It could, it's a lot of things that come at you and, and it gets to you and let's say, what happens? And this is a pattern I've watched for a long time is first begins to settle into self doubt and maybe let a big deal. You kind of brush it off, you know, dust your knees off, get them going, but then it hits you again and hits. You get into self doubt, then leads to pretending and pretending that you're all together. And you're all good. And it's all working when it really isn't. And then that there's a psychological mechanism that kicks in when it goes from self doubt to pretend to buy. This takes a long time. It's not, this isn't something that happens in a week in the pretending phase is, you know, that I'm good. It's all, I've got it all together. And I got all the answers. And of course you don't is then you go to, to make it work in your mind and to make it work in your context and your job and your business, you start lowering the bar and lowering the standard to make it work. And I've just watched that for a long time and you just don't have to do that. Just don't have to do that.
Doug Smith:Yeah. So, I mean, you talk about the goal of the book is to get to a place of authentic confidence. Can you cast a vision for what confidence should look like in a leader's life?
Dan Reiland:Yeah. You know, I mean, that's a gigantic thing. I wrote 15 chapters on it, but if I, if I could narrow it, let me read the book, open the book. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I could put it down into two big parts and one is, um, a reliance on God's presence and power and all that you do. Now, I'm speaking of course, from a place of faith, obviously, but our reliance on, on God's power, his presence in your life, um, where, where, um, you, you just know he's, there's a consistent assurance of him with you. I mean, I'm going to just stop there for a second, because I don't want, I don't mean is how am I going to have an am I saved as Jesus loved me. I'm not talking about that. You know that, but I talked to leaders all the time where they, they know God loves him. They, their theology is right. They get it. It's not that. Do they, do they love me and am I going to heaven? And all that stuff, is he with me? Like, is God okay, I'm in it. Are you in it with me? I'm not sure. You're, I'm not sure you're with me right now. I know you love me, but are you with me? And when you just get really honest about that, that's a big deal. And so that's, that's part one. And part two is a development of your own gifts and talents your, your own abilities. And that really just speaks to the partnership that I, I think there's a partnership that exists between God and man, and God and woman. And I think when we miss that is we, we missed the confidence and we're where people get in trouble, either with overconfidence or under confidence right over. Because either one's not good. You don't want to get you in trouble when you favor one or the other too much. Like when you say, well, it's all about God, kind of a fatalistic thing. Well, it's all about God. It's all God's will and whatever. And I just, whatever, okay, that's, that's a mistake or it's no, I'll do, I'll do the work. I'll make it happen. It's all about me. You know, I just, it's, it's a, it's a partnership and, and that authentic, consistent partnership and understanding that spending your life working on it, um, that's what makes the foundation of your confidence breathe better?
Doug Smith:And that is so good. You made the statement in the book, um, I'll just read it here. It said the moment you step it up to lead, you immediately become aware of your level of confidence. And I threw the question in there, you know, what if people don't like what they become aware of. Um, and I, and what you just said was so powerful, you know, you're, well, I guess it was two years ago now I took on a new role as director of development, the organization I'm in. And I did not like what I became aware of when I stepped into that role. Uh, it was a major lack of confidence, but what you said there, and actually in the book, I believe his name. Is it the pastor at new life church. Terry, is that his name?
Dan Reiland:Oh, Jerry Jerry. The exact pastor. Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Smith:He made a statement very similar to what you just said about God partnering with him. And there was a time where he felt like the church was outgrowing him and he had to come back to the fact that God put me here. And if God put me here in his with me, I'll have the ability to grow. And I feel like that was what was missing when I became aware that I don't know if I have what it takes to be in this position, but putting my confidence in that. I just think when you just share this as leaders, you need to hear that over and over again, rewind, rewind, rewind, and anything you want to share before I go to another question, I just wanted to reemphasize how, how big that was.
Dan Reiland:Yeah. Well, it is, it is big. And thank you for saying that, but when you, the quote that you, you brought up, you know, when you step up to lead, you immediately become aware of your level of confidence and what have you, you know, see something you don't like. Right? Cause that happens. But I guess what I want to say about that is that's a good thing. That's a good thing. And if you want to do something about it, and that's a good thing, because that motivates you to grow and learn and change. The only problem there is, if you don't think I would worry about for you or will, or anybody is listening to us today is if you stepped up to lead, you saw something you didn't like, and you became aware of something, and then you didn't do anything about it. That's the elite, that's the formula for disaster. That goes back to what I was saying before. Then you start pretending, then you start defending, then you start excusing. Then you start lowering the bar. Then of course, you're not going to move ahead that way. So yeah.
Doug Smith:One area of growth that you focus on in the book is, uh, growing your character. And that's a source of confidence as well. I'm just curious, based on your years in leadership, how can one grow and develop their character?
Dan Reiland:Yeah. Well, I guess now I'm giving the shameless plug. So thank you that you're bringing up the book here because I D I, I devoted an entire section five chapters to that because it's so important. And I think the core of that, um, Doug, I think the core of that is that self, self leadership is the essence of character development. I think that's, if I had to say it in a sentence or two, I'd start there, that that self-leadership is the core of character development. You can develop it in that way. And then second, you know, you really can't lead others if you can't first lead yourself. So the things that I talk about, whether it's consistency or authority or adaptability, resilience, that, you know, those kinds of chapters, that's really about leading yourself and in that way, um, that, that strengthens your character. So that's, that's right. That's what I think is like a drill down as much as you want. But that's what I think the big idea is about.
Doug Smith:Yeah. Um, similarly related, I would want, I love to ask leaders about how they deal with the pain and the weight and the pressures that come with leadership. Um, you know, especially, I think young leaders aspire to leadership and they think I'm going to get to have a sweet office. I get to speak on stage. It's going to be, I have a staff reporting me, I have a budget and they think of all these cool things. And then, Yeah, this wasn't, this, wasn't what I thought it was going to be. How do you personally deal with that and how have you dealt with that over the years.
Dan Reiland:Yeah, I think that's, I love that question. Cause it, it, it comes up a ton. I think the first thing I do, if it's, if it's really piling up, if it's, if it's a lot, again, every, every, not every day is a good day, so that's not what I'm talking about, but the bigger picture, I think the first thing I do is I go back to my calling and I think that's really important. I know, I know Coleen has changed over time and we have differing definitions of it. And I think it's all healthy and good, you know, generational definitions of a calling looks like, so I'm not, I'm not focusing there, but some sense of calling this, isn't just a job. This is what, you know, I was created on purpose for a purpose, that kind of a notion. So I go back to that and that, that reminds me of a bigger picture of purpose. And it helps me stay on that big picture. And then, and then I go real practical. So I start there and then they go practical. And the practical thing is every job has the bat, you know, the junks and stuff that you don't want to do. But I remind myself that I do that because I get to do the other eye. I'm floored that I get paid to do this. I love what I do. I, I, I went from undergraduate work that had nothing to do with theology or church or anything and, and to, to seminary. And I, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the students who were in seminary when I was, they were Bible majors and so they were born. And so this is repeat, and I don't, I was having the time of my life. I remember thinking to myself, I'm getting credit for this, you know, and then I got became a PA you know, I was kind of job that I'm getting paid for this. And so when you're called and when you love your work, uh, the little things that you need to do for the things that you get to do, that's how I say it, the things that I need to do so that I can do the things that I get to do that just helps me keep going. And yeah, uh, that makes, that makes a difference.
Doug Smith:I I'd like to go here sometimes with leaders. Can you talk about calling and doing what you love versus making money? I'm just curious what you've learned about money over the course. Cause it's like, Oh, well, man, I would love to be like Dan and do what I love, but I don't know if I can support my family. Then what have you learned about money over your year?
Dan Reiland:Well, first of all, having some is better than not. So let's just start. Yeah, I would, I would suggest let's be real. Uh, I've I've gotten accustomed to eating and serve my children and my wife and you know, so let's just, let's not pretend that you know, that we don't want to make a good living and that kind of thing that said, I just coached way too many way too many people to know that there's a thing that I call the golden handcuffs. And, um, uh, literally just exactly what it sounds like. They make an incredible amount of money and they lose their freedom. They lose their options. One of the things, one of the things that John mentored me in a long, long time ago is leaders never, ever, ever don't, he's just an option. So you just don't lose your options. Cause, cause here's the thing. Life is, life is made up of traits, all of life. All your life is a series of trades and trades tap into options. And when you surrender your options, you lose your freedom. And when you lose your freedom, you're, you're not the person you were ever designed to be. So if you, the golden handcuffs are, when you make so much money, you can't change. Even if you'll want to change. And that's a terrible place to be. And you can, by the way, you can have golden handcuffs. Not because you make a lot of money, you can be in the golden handcuffs because you make a little money, but you overspend yourself. You can, you can get them. You can get those on, in more than one book in more than one way. But, uh, your, your, your happiness is, it just doesn't come from how much you make. It comes from how productive you are that I get to talk to people in their sixties now. And they never ever regret doing the challenge, doing the thing you do. In the, I remember one guy I know we don't have a lot of time, but stories are sometimes better than me. Just rambling on with principles. One guy named Steve and Steve was, he was like in his forties and he was in, I think, engineering somewhere. And one of my J men back in San Diego, Josh was man great guy. And he'd always wanted to be a teacher. Just, he's just always an and everybody knew he'd be a great teacher, but he was in his forties and they get a lot of money. And he said, I can't do it. I'd have to go back to school and whatever. And, and his wife said, I'll babysit. I'll do whatever. Well, I'll just, you know, when he made the choice, it was, it was like something unfolding before our eyes. They sacrificed for a couple of years. And he became an elementary school teacher in his forties and year after year after year, he won the award for best teacher that people, people, clamored, parents clamor to be around him. He was extraordinary. And it was one of those things where he was almost locked into the golden handcuffs. And he said, no, Nope. I'm going to do what I'm called to do what I love to do. What I've always wanted to do. He did it. And to this day, it's that story I could tell a hundred times. And I always tell the men and women, I get to talk to you. Isn't it. Don't, don't get locked in. Don't surrender your options, go for the freedom. Be the person God designed you to be.
Doug Smith:I've never heard that illustration. That was extremely powerful. Thank you for sharing. Um, one thing that you mentioned in there that John referring to John Maxwell mentored you, and I know you got to work with John and you were mentored by John for 38 years, which is incredible. And, uh, I was sharing with you last night on our prep call for this, uh, interview that, you know, John's been a huge hero in my life. And I'm just curious, what are maybe one or two of the greatest things that you've learned under, uh, being under his mentorship in your life?
Dan Reiland:Yeah, well, we could spend a long, a long time there too that this, um, uh, but you know, with, with John, I think I would start by saying it's a little bit more attitude. Things like attitude and generosity and how he thinks, which is something that's a big deal to me. So I don't always want to know what my mentor would do, what the advice is, which, which is always great. I always find a job. What would you do? I've got a problem to solve what, without helping help me, help me. Right. And, and of course I'm grateful for his likes his advice, cause it's always so good. But what I really worked on for 38 years is how he thinks, because when I learned how somebody thinks, whether it's any of the people who have mentored me, then it, then I can multiply their wisdom into a lot of other, uh, other things. But I'll give you one. Um, uh, I gave you many of, of kind of life changing things. And that was, you know, people don't care how much you, how much, you know, to know how much you care. And of course, there's a lot of stories attached to that stories that now are in his books and he talks about and stuff. But I might've been one, the first ones you said that too, back in 80 1982, I think it was. And I'll tell you if I, if we had time, I don't think we do. If we had time, it's a longer story. You would, you would see that I probably wouldn't be here on this podcast with you today. Had he not had that moment with me, then coaching me with the way I approach coaching is pay attention. I think sometimes we overcomplicate coaching. We, we, we want to make all these charts and graphs and things, and coaching really comes down to two words, pay attention. And if you pay attention to the people that you lead, the people that are close to you, you can have the right word in the right time at the right moment. And that's what a good coach does to help you win. And so he did in that moment, in that moment, had I not had he not walked me through people care, you know, people don't care how much, you know, until they know how much you care. I probably wouldn't be here. I probably would not have made it in ministry. And so I'm eternally grateful for him and that principle and about 50 others, he's still, he's still coaching me and teaching me stuff now, which is awesome.
Doug Smith:Yeah. I actually, I think I was, then he just, I think he was doing a live when you just shared that you had texted him, Hey, it's been 38 years. I'm still learning from him. So that was awesome. Uh, this may be the same answer, pay attention, but I want to ask it in case you have more to say about it, but in the book, the confident leader, you made a statement that caring about people is not automatic. And I think sometimes as leaders, especially in a ministry in nonprofit world, we think that just because we're Christians, we, we love and care for people. Um, but clearly you make the statement. That's not the case. Can you talk about,
Dan Reiland:Yeah. Well, I think we all know it's not the case, whether it's, whether it's, you've been in a restaurant, you go, I don't think he cares about me. If you had a boss, I don't think he could, you know, you had a doctor or McKesson. I'm pretty sure he doesn't care. You know, so we know that's true. It's not automatic. Um, and, and I think that, and I'm not talking about a leader or somebody who literally is just some Machiavellian. I don't really, I don't really care about me. I don't mean that. I think there's a couple of categories. Well, let me back up. I think sometimes, um, there is care, but you're so overwhelmed with your own problems. And you're so consumed with trying to solve things and just navigate your own life. You don't have any space left to, to, so you've got to figure that part out first. Cause if you're so consumed in your world, you shrink your world. It's like this, somebody who is really sick, right? Somebody who has cancer or something, well, their world naturally understandably shrinks because they trying to survive. Well, leaders do that emotionally. When, when they're overwhelmed with their problems, they're there, their leadership capacity shrinks because they're trying to survive themselves. You've got to lead bigger than that. That's a starting place. Then I think there's a couple of groups. The first group is that leaders. They don't care necessarily, but they want to, they know they don't feel what they need to feel, but they, they want to. And I think that group literally, cause you can't just say, well, now I care that doesn't you can't, you do it. You don't right. You can't just flip a switch, but you can ask God to help you care. I've seen that happen. And the second group was, was part of my story is you really care about people. You really love people, but you just suck that show in and you just didn't know how to show it. You moved too fast. You went too fast. You're always trying to save the world. You know, and John was saying to me, you're running right by the world. Can you slow down there? Those are people. They call them people, you know? And I like, Oh my gosh, but you let me help me see that you have deep care and love and passion for people, but you've got to slow down. And so for that group, it's just having a coach. So to help you express the care you have for people. So those are the two groups that I see. And those are the two ways that you can actually care more intentionally than, than if you, you know, but before. Yeah,
Doug Smith:That's good. Um, you spent most of your career in ministry as an executive pastor or number two in an organization. Um, a lot of leaders listening to this, they aspire, especially young leaders. They all want to aspire to be number one, but whether they're actually in the number two seat as an executive pastor or just a young leader in the organization in one way or another, we're all Number twos. And I'm just curious after all the years Faithful as a number two, what have you learned about being a great number two that we could all learn from?
Dan Reiland:Wow, this is a topic of another book soon. Hopefully to come out someday. I love this topic. I, lot of my work is in is with, uh, the executive pastor around. Um, so let me, let me just toss out one big idea and then we can go wherever you want to go with it. I think one of the keys is the ability to navigate all power and no power at the same time, the ability to navigate all authority and no authority at the same time. It just is to understand authority, to intellect. For example, I've been given a huge amount of authority over the years, but it's important for me to remember it was transferred to me. It doesn't belong to me, I'm stewarding it. And I think it's important for a number two and executives to have the strength to lead, but you don't, you don't have to do it. Um, you can't, in other words, you don't want to just be an executive valet who just kinda like, well, I just do what I'm told. Cause then you're not helping anything. You're not leading anything. You have to have enough force and gumption and authority and drive in you to lead. But you don't, you're not for more. That's what I'm trying to say. You're you, you, you steward what you've been given. It's a sacred trust that you've been given and it doesn't belong to you. Of course the hard part is you're still responsible to lead even does the authority doesn't belong to you, but you're not clamoring for more. And that's a difficult place for a lot of leaders to be. Here's why if you have enough drive to actually lead typically an individual once more and it's difficult to lead with what you've been given and to serve, but have, and still also have enough horsepower to make something happen. I think that's at the core of a conversation that I've had hundreds of times with leaders. And then of course at that point, it goes into, um, really nuanced things about the individual and the context and the culture where they lead. I don't know. That was a lot. Did you, did that make sense to you?
Doug Smith:I've never, I've never heard anyone speak on that. That was extremely powerful. Um, talk to talk to young leaders about, I always like saying, being faithful where they're at and then serving the leaders they're under. Cause again, I guess just what advice do you have for young leaders being a 360 degree leader?
Dan Reiland:So I get the three 60 in a lot of contexts, but unpack what you, there's a lot of ways to go up to talk about the young leader. What do you,
Doug Smith:I guess I'll just for the time that we have left, what advice do you have for, for young leaders?
Dan Reiland:Ah, that, that I get better. Okay. Here's the, I love the young lead. We have a really, really young staff and um, one of the things that comes up a lot is they want to add, I ain't saying they, but you you're talking to somebody who loves the young leaders. They want to rise fast. They want to rise really fast and they, well, I want to be promoted to give me more, give me more responsible. I said, you've been here for eight and a half minutes. What? Just calm down for a second. You know, and here's what I say is, um, build the thing you've been given don't don't fuss about. Don't get frustrated about the thing that you want, that you don't have build the thing you were picked for build the thing. Somebody picked you. Somebody thinks you're awesome. Build, build, build, build, grow the thing you were given. And I promise you you'll get noticed. And the second thing is so, so don't get frustrated about what you don't have a build, the thing you were given. That's one and the second is enjoy it, have fun. There's a, there's the two things have to go together. The fruit and joy. If you want to be old fashioned or use scripture, which is not old fashioned, you know, little spirit, Galatians five, but fruit or productivity or results, whatever word you like better, but fruit and joy. You've got to have both cause you, you can't go. The, you won't go the distance without both. What I mean by that is if you have, if you're highly productive, but there's no joy, you're not going to go the distance. You're not going to go 39 years. You're not going to go 49 years. You're not going to last, but, and if you have lots of joy, like woo party on, you know, but you're not getting anything done. That's not going to work either. You've got to have both. One of my favorite things to do with young leaders, actually, any leaders or leaders of any age is over a cup of coffee. Now it's tea for me, you know, I'm a TTA, real men drink tea, come on. So
Doug Smith:I have to dive into that cause I am, I'm a coffee addict. No doubt you did. You intentionally quit drinking coffee. It sounds like,
Dan Reiland:You know what? My body intentionally aged and said, we're not going to do this anymore. So I rather than wine and p alette because I l oved coffee, I l ove the smell of coffee. It was all s howing i t's social. I'm very, y ou k now, I'm not g oing t o complain. I'm g oing t o drink tea. I'm g oing t o, I'm g oing t o make it an art. I'm g oing t o find the best t eas all over the world. I'm going to get into it. I'm going to, w ow. I've made it. I've made it fun. And so that's how I got into t ea. But one of my favorite things to do is with a young leader or leader of any age is to literally w rite. And this is the best coaching conversation c an keep it simple. I literally write the two words on a napkin, fruit and joy, and I spin it around and push it across the table and say, talk to me. And inevitably, one of those two sides is not happening. And then I say, let's talk about it either. They're productive, but they're not happy, or they're happy, but they're not productive. And I'm telling you, you've got to have both.
Doug Smith:Wow. So good. Well, I'm going to use a lot of napkins coming up. Uh, that's beautiful. Um, I want to dive into the lightening round in a second, but I want to give you an opportunity again, we're talking about the book, the confident leader, the dangerous road here,
Dan Reiland:Multiple other books. He's always writing blog posts and helpful emails. And so Dan, can you just tell the audience, where can they find you and connect with you? Um, the easiest thing is Dan reiland.com, R E I L a N D jus my blog. I don't have a website that is kind of my simple, everything free kind of place to go down robyn.com. You can read a lot of stuff there. Um, uh, Amazon's an easy place to get confident leader a thing that's a fast and easy. And then of course, 12 stone church. Um, I'm just really easy to find. Uh, and I try to be helpful to as many as I can.
Doug Smith:Well, you're very helpful to everyone listening to this. So thanks again. And let's dive right into the lightning round. Again, these are just a bunch of fun questions that I like to ask leaders. And the first one is this, what is the best advice you've ever received and who gave it to you?
Dan Reiland:Oh, wow. I can't say Jesus on this one. Right? It's because this is the Sunday I've been, I am blessed with a lot of incredible mentors and of course John August. And so, um, and there's so many things I could pick from that. John has said, so I'm going to just pick one. I don't, I don't know if I can rank order them it's you know, but, but I think long time ago, sometimes it's when you hear what you hear in the moment you hear it, you know, kind of like a book you read, it's the time you read it. Um, I remember one time John saying Dan Dan Owens calls me Danno. He's a Danno. It's not what happens to you. It's what happens in you. And there was just, and I know that's been said a thousand times, but it was in that moment. It, it was hearing it back then that it was, uh, a foundational moment. And, uh, it's just so true. There's so many things that are going to come at all of us as leaders. And it's, that doesn't matter. It's what, it's what happens in you. It's how you respond. It's what you do with it. That matters.
Doug Smith:You could put a quote on a billboard for everyone to read. What would it say?
Dan Reiland:Well, I should've, I should've looked at your lightning out questions. I'll tell you one. I love when you, when you've done all, you can do go to bed. God is still up.
Doug Smith:I lost the bet. So good. What's the best purchase you've made in the last year for a hundred dollars or less?
Dan Reiland:Well, I couldn't say T and I can't fit my guitar addiction and under a hundred dollars, the best purchase under a hundred dollars. Oh, I know. I'm, I'm recently learning a new thing at John was helping me. I'm I'm I don't do video very well. I'm a in live teaching coaching pastor type, you know, a coach type, but I've been pushed by some of my team to video and, and, and to put out there that, you know, something happens though when the light goes on, my brain goes off and I said, you know what? I'm always up for a challenge. I'm always eager to learn something new and I'm game and I'm doing it. Um, so I did, I bought something for under a hundred bucks. That's fun and it's, and it's helping me learn and grow. I bought a mic, I bought a mic for it. My phone goes in my, my iPhone and that little light thing. And we are, we are rocking and rolling with videos maybe.
Doug Smith:Oh, that's awesome. Way to go. Uh, what's the, what's a top two or three books that you've found yourself handing out in the last year.
Dan Reiland:I'm just curious. Last year, I'm a book guy. So that's a tough one, too. One of my coaches and dear friends, dr. Sam Chand. I love this book. I love it. Cause I love it. But, but also because the pastors I took are our eight campus pastors through it and they loved it and it's called bigger, faster leadership, the Suez canal and the Panama canal. And he just does this beautiful interplay between the leadership and the history and the president and governments and people losing their lives and very complex, big decisions, and then takes it to your practical world called bigger, faster leadership. That's a really, really good book, a couple others, again, going back maybe a year and a half, but I really adapted them. See if I can get the titles, right. But one is called essentialism, I think. Um, and the other is deep work. I kind of read them as a thing together, deep work. And essentially they're not light reads. They're not easy reads, but they're powerful. They're really good. And I think today with people, the clamoring for time, the less time, the busy-ness, you know, thing, when do you get real work done? When do you get deep work done? How do you organize yourself? How do you do that in a real way? Those two books deeper in a centralism are really, really isn't McKewen And who's the other one on our deepest Cal Newport. Very good. Very good. Those three books come up, come to the top of my mind. They're really good.
Doug Smith:Do you listen to podcasts? And if you do, what are your, what are your go tos?
Dan Reiland:I do. I, I run every day and I listened to podcasts and stuff. Well, I'm a big fan of Carrie Neuhoff He's a great friend. And he just has an extraordinary gift about him. He can just get people to say anything and extraordinary people on. So I'm grateful for my friend, Carrie. And of course I'm a fan of Andy Stanley. He's got a leadership series that he does. I listened to. And you know, from there, I think I just go broad and wide it's, you know, people send me, you know, listen to this, listen to this. Those are probably two of my go tos. And then others are just stuff that gets sent my way. John Maxwell, the series on Mondays and on, Oh my gosh. It's so good. So good.
Doug Smith:Oh yeah. And anything that guy releases I'm on. I I'm, I love it.
Dan Reiland:It's really good. Yeah.
Doug Smith:Um, you get to spend time with a lot of great leaders. I'm curious. Do you have a GoTo question that no matter how many times you have dinners with leaders,
Dan Reiland:You always ask this question. I do have several, you know, one is personal and one is more organizational. Um, the one I love asking is, is, is simply this, what do you want? I just, what do you want? And people stop thinking, what do you mean? What do you want? What do you want? I know you want something. What do you want out of life? And you want not a ministry. What do you talk to me about what you want? So many leaders don't give themselves permission to be honest about what they want in life. And those become well, the most dangerous leaders are the ones who don't know what they want. Those are dangerous leaders, but then the conflicted leaders are the ones who, um, they get, they get tripped up in the difference between wanting something and theologically, am I allowed to want something in life? You know? And, and cause here's, of course you are. God made you that way. Here's where you, here's where we get messed up. It's believing you can have everything you want. That's where you get messed up. Um, I think we need to be honest about what you want and pursue that with abandon and align with God's will, but just keep the boundary of you can't have everything that you want. So I love asking leaders that because so many have never thought about it. Um, the organizational question I like to ask is cause this one trips everybody up and it still trips me up is how are decisions made people always go cross side with that question? Like, um, I don't know. It's kind of a circus here. I don't really know. And it's kind of true if you dive into, as a consultant and even here, uh, not a circus, but in difficult there, I don't know that. I can't remember a place where I've been to where it's just clean and pure and everybody knows how decisions are made. And yet it's one of the most critical functions of leadership in any organization. And we don't know how to do it.
Doug Smith:Okay. That's it. That's what I was going to say. We're about to find out, cause I'm just going to reverse this on you. What do you want? What do I want? Yeah,
Dan Reiland:My, uh, I think my legacy has to be raising up thousands and thousands of leaders who they get there faster. They go farther, they go faster and they go farther because of a little contribution that I've made. I think that's what I want now. Now obviously my, at the core of me, that's my global passion leadership thing. Why I think God may be why he put me here. Obviously what I really want, if the core of me is deep and meaningful relationships with my family and close friends. And so the older I get and the older people around me get, I think the number one regret regret, it's not the bucket list thing that people have. The number one regret is when their relationships closest to them. Aren't right. And so I, I, I live for that. Andy Stanley said something there when I was at North point. And of course he's a really brilliant individual and really a teacher. And he said something about family life. Um, that just, you know, it was one of those moments that just hit you. You said, uh, this is back in, I don't know, the late nineties, I guess he said, well, Sandra and I lead the, we, we, we do our family in such a way. We lead our kids and we love our kids and do our family in such a way. He says it far more eloquently, but I'll get there in such a way so that when one day they grow up and leave, they'll want to come back. That's a brilliant statement. Wow. Because that's an entire lifetime of how to lead in such a way that you raise your children strong enough to leave. But once they leave, they want to come back. And Patty and I have worked on that and our kids come back and we love that. And now our granddaughter and she's there. So that's really a big deal. That's really important. But for me, legacy wise, what do I want, I want to have helped thousands of leaders lead bigger, faster and farther than, than they have in the past.
Doug Smith:Yeah. Well, I know you've helped us today and you're hoping everyone listening to this. And uh, so thank you for that. And as we close, is there anything else you want to leave leaders with today as we wrap up?
Dan Reiland:I think you, I think you, you have done a good job interviewing and I think we're good. We're good to go. Just stay in the game. Don't let this COVID thing. Get you down, keep your head up and keep going.
Doug Smith:I'd like to thank our sponsor. Henny jewelers. They're jeweler owned by my friend and mentor John Henney, my wife, Laura and I both got our engagement and our wedding rings at Henny jewelers. And we absolutely love them. Not only do they have great jewelry, but they also invest in people. In fact, they give every engaged couple of books to help them prepare for their marriage. And we just love that. And so if you're in need of a good jeweler, check out Hennyjewelers@hennyjewelers.com, I'd also like to thank our sponsor. Babb Inc. BABB is an insurance broker, a third party administrator and consulting firm led by my friend and mentor Russell Livingston Russell was extremely passionate about developing the next generation of leaders, which is why he's partnering with us on this podcast. And he's also opened up his offices here in Pittsburgh to host our monthly leadership events. And we're extremely grateful for that. The nonprofit that I work at light of life rescue mission started using BABB as our insurance broker around three years ago. And we've had an unbelievable experience with them and we highly recommend them. So if you or your organization has any insurance needs, please check out and learn more about that at BABB at babbins.com that's babbins. com. Hey everyone, thank you so much for listening to my interview with Dan Reiland. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did, and you can find ways to connect with him and links to everything that he discussed in the show notes at l3leadership.org/257. And as always, if this episode made an impact on your life, it would mean the world to me. If you would share it with others, posted on social media, let us know what your key takeaway was. And if you've been listening to podcasts for a while, it would mean the world. To me, if you would leave a rating and review on iTunes, it does help us grow our audience or thank you in advance for that. And as always, I to end with a quote and I'll quote, Gerald Brooks, again, this was so good. He said this. He said, if you could not serve in the shade, then you will never be able to serve in the limelight. So good. I'll say that again. If you could not serve in the shade, then you will never be able to serve in the limelight. Hey, hope you enjoyed the podcast and we can't wait to be with you next time, Laura, and I appreciate you so much and have a great day
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