Arnie and Fred continue their discussion about, Is Jesus Jehovah? We begin by looking at the reference to Jehovah as the Rock in the book of Psalms. We find Paul making a similar statement to the brethren in Corinth. We suggest there is a conclusion to be made from these scriptures. We note that Jeremiah says Jehovah is the forgiver of sins. Again, we find similar statements by both Mark and the Hebrew writer discussing Jesus in the same context. What does this tell us? We move on to the reference to angels worshipping Jehovah according to David in his Psalms. But we find Paul telling the brethren in Philippi that angels worship Jesus. From this, are we to conclude that Jesus is Jehovah? Again, we find Isaiah discussing Jehovah and saying that every tongue would swear or confess God as Lord. But we find Paul applying the same passages to Jesus as the one that everyone would confess that Jesus is Lord. We complete this episode by looking at who is to be addressed in prayer. Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion to find out if the Bible says that Jesus is Jehovah. Have your Bible handy so you can verify what we are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.
Arnie and Fred continue their discussion about, Is Jesus Jehovah? We begin by looking at the reference to Jehovah as the Rock in the book of Psalms. We find Paul making a similar statement to the brethren in Corinth. We suggest there is a conclusion to be made from these scriptures. We note that Jeremiah says Jehovah is the forgiver of sins. Again, we find similar statements by both Mark and the Hebrew writer discussing Jesus in the same context. What does this tell us? We move on to the reference to angels worshipping Jehovah according to David in his Psalms. But we find Paul telling the brethren in Philippi that angels worship Jesus. From this, are we to conclude that Jesus is Jehovah? Again, we find Isaiah discussing Jehovah and saying that every tongue would swear or confess God as Lord. But we find Paul applying the same passages to Jesus as the one that everyone would confess that Jesus is Lord. We complete this episode by looking at who is to be addressed in prayer. Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion to find out if the Bible says that Jesus is Jehovah. Have your Bible handy so you can verify what we are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.
This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty am and five thirty pm. We meet for bible study at nine thirty am on Sunday, and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@ftc-i.net Or to Arnie Granke at agranke440718@twc.com.
Arnie:Good afternoon, this is Arnie Granke. And Fred Gosnell. We're with the church of Christ at Woodland in Sumter, South Carolina. And this is what does the Bible say. The program is sponsored by the Woodland church of Christ. And Fred and I are glad to have you with us. We've been talking for the last couple of conversations that we've had, about whether Jesus is Jehovah. And we've looked at a number of terms that are used with regard to, to Him that not only were applicable to Jehovah in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament were applicable to Jesus, the creator, the Savior, raises, the dead, the judge, the light, the shepherd, the glory of God, first and last. And so, Fred, I think, I think we ought to maybe say a few words about Jesus being the Rock.
Fred Gosnell:Yes. Okay. Well, David David says that. Well, of course, David is talking about Jehovah again, in Psalm 18, two and three, and he says, The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my strength, in whom I will trust. My buckler and the horn of my salvation. And my high tower. I will call upon the Lord who is worthy to be praised, so shall I be saved from my enemies. And again, remember that we talked about the word Lord is a capitalized, and, and that's that's the Hebrew word is Jehovah. So, so Jehovah is my rock, according to David. But then Paul talks about a rock in First Corinthians 10, verse four. And then he says, Paul, and beginning of verse four says, And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. So again, Jehovah is referred to by David as the Rock. And then Jesus is referred to by Paul as that Rock, and it was Christ. So the only conclusion is that Jesus is Jehovah. And that's what the Bible says, Arnie.
Arnie:Well, and everywhere that you see throughout the Old Testament, just a reminder there; every every time that you see the, the word, Lord in capital letters, as you pointed out, then that's referring to Jehovah and it means I AM is is the literal meaning of that. So what is said about Jehovah is said about Christ, therefore, he is also Jehovah. Jehovah is not a single individual. In in the Godhead, the Bible teaches that there's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and all three of them are, or the I AM. I'm looking at Jeremiah 31, Fred. And in, in verse 31, of that chapter, Jeremiah identifies God as the Forgiver of sins. And beginning in verse 31, Behold, the days come saith Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which my covenant they break, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord. I'm gonna pause here, just for a moment to to note that I don't think it's referring to him as a husband in the same sense that we usually speak of it as meaning the male member of a family The husband and the wife. This is a word that also means a manager, or a caretaker. When we're when we're dealing with livestock, for example, if we if we had a flock of sheep, and and kept them in our barn we would consider we would be considered as, as animal husbands, animal husbandry. It would be our, our business there. So that was the sense in which God was a husband, he was a caretaker of them, or the manager, the one that they should should obey. Verse 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, write it in their hearts, and I will be their God, they shall be my people. They shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord. For they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, saith the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity. And I will remember their sin no more. So he's the Forgiver of of Sins of forgiving iniquity. By the way that the word Lord here appears for four different times in those in those passages that we just read. So the question would be well, does that is that applicable to Christ as well? Look at Hebrews chapter eight. And beginning in verse seven, the Hebrew writer said, For if that first covenant, and that would be the Old Testament, if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place had been sought for the second. For finding fault with them. He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in my covenant. Because, and I regarded them not, almost did it get down to the next line, I regarded them not saith the Lord, for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts, they will be to, I will be to them a God, they shall be to Me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man is his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest, for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities, will I remember no more? Well, you just couldn't find I don't think a clearer statement that would would identify, that would would identify God as being the Forgiver of sins and then mention Christ as being in that capacity, as well, quoting from quoting from what Jeremiah had, had said. I think it just stands without any argument.
Fred Gosnell:Well, it gets even more specific than that, according to Jesus here later on, in Mark, chapter two verses one through 12. And of course, this is talking about Jesus in beginning of verse one again, He entered into Capernaum, after some days, and it was noised that he was in the house. And straightway many were gathered together and so much that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door. And he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him bringing one sick of the palsy, which was born of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was and when they had broken it up. They let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their face, faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there and reasoning in their hearts. Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies. Who can forgive sins but God only? Immediately Jesus was perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves. He said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven the or to say, Arise and take up thy bed and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins. He saith to the sick of the palsy, I say unto thee, arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way unto thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all in so much that they were all amazed and glorified God saying, We never saw it on this fashion. Of course, what Jesus had done, the first thing he did was, he said, Your sins are forgiven you. Of course, but Jehovah is the one that forgives sins. Well, then the ultimate conclusion is that Jesus is Jehovah. But then they didn't believe that. So Jesus said, Well, what's easier? Is it easier to say for your sins are forgiven? Or is it easier to tell him to rise and take up that bed and walk? Of course, then the they're stuck. And so that then Jesus then tells the man to take up your bed and walk. And he does. And then, of course, what else can they say? They've never seen anything like this. So they think that they draw the right conclusion. We never saw anything like this. And of course, he forgave his sins. And he proved it by then healing his palsy. So Jesus is Jehovah. He does the same thing as Jehovah does, He forgives sins. And he proved that there when he performed the miracle on the individual after he said, Your sins are forgiven you.
Arnie:I think, I think we could say that, you know, when you have people or groups of people that that, think that, that there's only one individual, one personality, there in heaven, only God, the Father, that that Jesus isn't exactly the same as the Father and the Holy Spirit isn't made of the same of the same substance as, as the father, they're making the same mistake that the Jews made, and the Jews are still making today, that that Jesus is not the son of, of God. And and, of course, nothing could be clearer than then that aired that in that passage that you that you just read there, Fred. So, here's Jesus is the, the Forgiver. of, of, of sins. Here, what passage was that that you were reading a second ago, Fred?
Fred Gosnell:That was Mark Two, one through 12.
Arnie:Okay, all right, I kind of lost my place here, had a pile of papers, and I was busy playing with there. So Jesus, of course, is worshipped by by angels, just as the Father is worshipped by by angels. And the psalmist states that and in Psalm 148, beginning in verse one, Praise ye the Lord, Praise ye the Lord. Both of those, by the way, are, are in all caps, that's the word for Jehovah. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights. Praise Him all ye angels, praise ye Him all his hosts. But that's pretty,pretty short statement just two verses there. But if we go to the to the Hebrew letter, we see beginning in Hebrews chapter one, very early in the book, and beginning in verse five, the Hebrew writer says, For unto which of the angels said He at any time Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee, and again, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son. And again, when he bringeth, in the first begotten into the world, he saith, Let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels, he saith, Who maketh his angel spirits and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the the Son he saith, Thy throne O God is forever and ever, a scepter of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore God, thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of thine hands, they shall perish, but thou remainest. And they all shall wax old as doth a garment. And as a vesture, shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed. But Thou art the same, thy years shall not fail. And, but but to which of the angels said he had any time? Sit on my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth the minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? So again, what is what is said, of the Father in the Psalm, that he's the Lord, is also said with regard to, to Jesus, he's, he's the Son. And, by the way, when when, when God God says, This day have I begotten thee, it's he's not talking about Jesus having by some means been begotten there of God, while he's up in heaven. What was he begotten of? If that were, what the argument would be? Is there a female God up there, that, that he had relations with and begat his son? But of course not. He's referring to Jesus coming to earth, and the child was begotten in Mary's womb, God did that, the Holy Spirit did that. And God made that very clear to Joseph that that's how she became pregnant. It wasn't as if she had been immoral, or anything of that sort. And that's the reason that he changed his mind about putting her away, quietly.
Fred Gosnell:Yes, and of course, we find in the Old Testament that Jehovah is confessed as Lord. Isaiah talks about that in Isaiah 45, 18, through 25. And Isaiah writes, begins in verse 18. For thus saith, the LORD that created the heavens, God Himself that formed the earth and made it, he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited. I am the Lord and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret. In a dark place of the earth. I said, not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain. I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right, Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations. They have no knowledge that set up the wood of their grave, graven image, and pray unto the god that cannot save. Tell ye and bring them near yea, let them take counsel together, who hath declared this from ancient times, who hath told it from that time? Have not I the Lord? And there is no other God beside me, a just God and a savior, there is none beside me, look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear, surely shall one say In the Lord have i righteousness and strength, even to him shall men come, and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified and shall glory. And of course, he's, he's Jehovah. He is God, He is the Creator. And he is the one that will, that every tongue shall swear him to be that. So then when we get to the New Testament, in Philippians, two, five through 11, Paul now is is going to talk about basically the same thing. But he's going to discuss Jesus in this context, beginning in verse five of Philippians, two, Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Let's stop here just a minute. It wasn't that, that Jesus was a thief. He, he, he understood that that he was, he was equal with God. passage says so, but then in verse seven, but he made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant. So even though he was equal to God, he came here in the flesh and then he became a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in the fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God hath also highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth, things under the earth, and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Well, in the Old Testament, every knee will bow and every knee would swear that Jehovah is God. He is, Lord. Well, but Jesus is requiring everybody to do the same thing, and they will, and that every tongue, the last verse, verse 11, That every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And of course you have, so So Jesus is Jehovah, just as God the Father is Jehovah, they are all in the same family, so to speak. They are all the same kinds of individuals, they are God, they are Jehovah. And that's what the Bible says, Arnie.
Arnie:Well, you know, looking at that word, that translated in the King James Version, robbery. There are several, several other synonyms that can be used for that. Somebody wants to research it, it's a sStrong's word number 725, harpogamas, and it is translated robbery in the King James Version, probably some other translations as well. But but it literally means a thing to be clung to, something to be clutched, held as a prize and not rea, not released. And another definition could be that it was not a usurpation to be equal with God. That's the point of the passage. Just isn't, it isn't saying, well, we can't can't accuse Jesus of being a robber. You know, that's not that's not what the passage is saying. The passage is telling us that Jesus was not reluctant to give up his his power as deity to come to the earth and die on a cross, suffer there and do all that he did to redeem man. He didn't consider that was was something that I'm not interested in doing that. He was glad to do that. And, and, of course, did do that. That's the point of of the word. They are sometimes people that maybe have a have a particular idea that they want to, say, clutch, since we're talking about that word, want to hang on to and not let go? Will will try to make something of that, that it's not meant to even discuss, Jesus was not unwilling to come to earth and do the work of the Savior. And because that was the only way that man could be redeemed if he did not do that, we could not be redeemed. So just just an extra comment about about that. Fred, you've got a passage here in Genesis 25. I see.
Fred Gosnell:Yes, well, Jehovah is is addressed in prayer and Genesis 25, 20, through 26. Beginning in verse, verse 20. We read, And Isaac, Isaac was 40 years old when he took Rebecca to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan-aram, the sister of Laban, the Syrian. And Isaac entreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren and the Lord was intreated of him. And Rebecca his wife conceived. But notice that Isaac entreated, the Lord, Jehovah, so she conceived, and verse 22, And the children's struggled together within her and she said, If it be so why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the Lord and again, this is Jehovah and she is inquiring of Jehovah in her prayer here. And the LORD said unto her, two nations are in thy womb and two, manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels. And the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger. And when her days to be delivered, were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb, and the first came out red all over like a hairy garment, and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out and his hand took hold of Esau's heel, and his name was called Jacob. And Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them. So so the point is that Jehovah was addressed in, in, in prayer. And we find that a number of times, again in Exodus 32, nine through 13, there, And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiffnecked people. Now therefore, let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot together against them, and that I may consume them, and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord, Jehovah, his God and said, Lord, why doth the wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt, with great power and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did He bring them out, to slay them in the in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember, Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants to who thou swears by thine own self, and saidst to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of, will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever. So we see two instances there that Jehovah is, is addressed in a prayer, the Lord by by Moses and by, by others. Are there other places Arnie that, that we find the
Arnie:Well, if you turn the page, in, in your Bible, you see same thing? that in Exodus 33, beginning in verse 11, just the very next chapter, beginning in verse 11, The LORD, and there it's all caps again, The Lord spake unto Moses, face to face as a man speaketh unto his friends, and he turneth again unto the camp, but His servant Joshua, the son of Nun, that the young man departed not out of the tabernacle. And Moses said unto the Lord, See thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people, and Thou has not let me know whom thou will send with me. Yet Thou hast said, I know thee by name and thou has also found grace in my sight. Now, therefore, I pray thee if I found grace in thy sight show me now thy way that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight, and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, My presence will go with thee, and I will give thee rest. Well, it's not Moses that is saying that last line. It's God saying that, saying that to Moses, and Moses is, is asking him for, for His help, and it is the Lord, it is deity. It's I AM, and he's identified that at the beginning of the passage.
Fred Gosnell:Yes. And then we find Daniel doing basically the same thing. He's He's praying Daniel nine, four through 10. And it says there in verse four, And I prayed unto the Lord, Jehovah, my God, and made my confession and said, Oh, Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy and mercy to them that love Him, and to them that keep His commandments. We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgements. Neither have we harkeneth it to thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our king, our principals and our fathers, to all the people of the land. O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee. But unto us confusion of faces, as at this day to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel that are near and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them because of their trespass, they have trespassed against thee. Oh Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face; to our kings, our princes to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. To the Lord our God belong mercies and for forgiveness, though we have rebelled against him, neither have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God to walk in His laws, which he set before us by His servants the prophets.
Arnie:Well, Acts chapter seven also is a passage that fits in here. They stoned Stephen and in verse 59, Calling upon God and saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit and he he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord lay not this sin to their charge. But when he said this, he fell asleep. Who was it that he called upon? He called upon God. What did he call Him? Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus is is divine. Well, Fred, I've got one more here, but we don't have time to read it. Let's just refer our listeners to Acts chapter nine, beginning in verse 10, verses 10, down through 16, should be enough to to help you get started on that. You'll see that that fits with these other passages that we've been reading, that show that the same things that are attributed to God that are attributed to the Father are attributed also to the Son. We thank you for listening. We look forward to being with you again next Lord's Day. Have a good week.