This week Rob Hanna is finally joined by co-host, Deenum Gahbri! We are delighted to be joined by Sonia Janday, Senior Legal Counsel at Aviva Investors, & Co-Chair of Aviva Origins, A Mentor, A Diversity Champion Award Winner this year for In-house, Society of Asian Lawyers Committee Member & Asian Legal Awards Lead.
In this episode, we discuss:
This week Rob Hanna is finally joined by co-host, Deenum Gahbri! We are delighted to be joined by Sonia Janday, Senior Legal Counsel at Aviva Investors, & Co-Chair of Aviva Origins, A Mentor, A Diversity Champion Award Winner this year for In-house, Society of Asian Lawyers Committee Member & Asian Legal Awards Lead.
In this episode, we discuss:
Rob Hanna: 0:00
Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast powered by Kissoon Carr. I'm your host, Rob Hanna. This week I'm delighted to be joined finally by my co host and other face legally speaking podcast album cover. All those of you who were wondering in a gallery heads up our dispute resolution on white collar crime Desk Our in House GPO on lead ambassador for our affiliation with the Society of Asian Lawyers, where this year we're fortunate enough to have co sponsored the amazing 25th Annual Asian Legal Awards ceremony celebrating 100 years of women in law. Deenum and I are delighted to be joined by Sonia Janday, senior legal counsel at Aviva Investors, co chair of the Origins a mental a recent diversity Champion Award winner in House Society of Asian Lawyers Committee member on Asian Legal Awards league. Wow, that was a mouthful.
Deenum Gahbri: 0:53
Thanks, Rob. It's an absolute pleasure to finally be on co hosting the legally speaking podcast. I can't believe you waited this long to finally have me on our podcast. Rob, as you've mentioned, I've been working closely with the Society of Asian Lawyers. and partner closely with them for the past few years. I've known you for some time now. We met a couple of years ago act an event hosted by Squire Patton Boggs on behalf of the the Society of Asian Lawyers. Sonia, thank you so much for joining us today. Many calculations once again for winning the divers to champion in House award at the Diversity Legal Awards in London. You must be delighted to have one Helo Bay.
Sonia Janday: 1:27
I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Yes. I am really excited that I want still shocked, though, and getting over it.
Deenum Gahbri: 1:35
Yeah, Super Congratulations. Really, really impressive. Before we go into our topic today where we're talking about in house right way. Do you have a customary question? Do you liketo ask on the podcast on Duel the Truth League nationals on the scale of 1 to 10. 10 being very rial. How real do you rate the TV? Siri's suits.
Deenum Gahbri: 2:00
Oh, I'd say about nine.
Rob Hanna: 2:04
Okay. And why did you give it a nine?
Deenum Gahbri: 2:07
Because of the late nights. You'll never go home. Theo,
Rob Hanna: 2:13
that's a point. That's a fair point.
Deenum Gahbri: 2:16
So, Sonia, have you always wanted to be alone? I have. Yes. Ever since I was more. I knew that's what I was going to go into. And so it was really easy for me going through school and college. Do
Rob Hanna: 2:28
you want to tell us a bit about your journey? Obviously have been super successful. You've risen up the ranks through your journey in private practise. But short of taking people back, you might be listening more of the early start of their careers, Right? Do you want to sort of just talk this through a little bit about your journey and sort of power? It's sort of arrived. Teo, where your impressively already? It's senior legal counsel.
Deenum Gahbri: 2:48
I think I have to take it back. Tio, when I started the legals or secretarial course So a lot people won't know that I actually started work as a secretary, a legal secretary on DH, then wait on DH. Then I did thie dialects course. So I studied and worked at the same time. Then I became a paralegal in a litigation team, Civil Litigation and Property Dedication team on DH. Then I qualified as a legal exec. Did the L. P. C then qualified as this lister. So I kind of started at the bottom and work my way up. But I got good experience that way, so I didn't have to do training contract. I didn't have to send off millions of application forms and wait kind of patiently nervously, but I would literally just worked on DH studied at the same
Rob Hanna: 3:43
time. I think that's a fascinating case study because everyone worries. I'm not gonna get a training contract. Is that the only way? And so is great. Actually, have somebody on that's gone through that journey that it is still possible. Don't give up open. Actually, what card you get into the right places. It could still happen for you, right?
Deenum Gahbri: 3:58
Absolutely. It is sure. How did you find the move from private practise? So I think that for me it was a fun move. It was a good move. Let's just say that I'm glad I was qualified in private practise and then moved in house. I knew I wanted to go in house at some point in my career. It just so happened it was quite early on. I I had a really good training as a basis for my career, I think in private practise. So when I moved in house. I knew certain processes the way that I would do things in a particular way helped me. Whereas if I'd just gone straight into in house and qualified there, it probably would have
Sonia Janday: 4:45
been a little bit more difficult for me.
Rob Hanna: 4:47
Yeah, I was going to ask you What do you think? You took away from your private practise experience in particular for those people who might be thinking about moving house or back the other way? It's private practise. What? What skills do you think? An experience that you really kind of learn from in practise help. Human in house now.
Deenum Gahbri: 5:04
Training? Yeah. Absolutely. Without doubt, 100 per cent is your training that you get even as a newly qualified in private practise. You can't beat that time recording, I suppose. S so if you're strict with yourself on time recording, we still time recording house? No, just so they can see how much we're doing. But also in House team were comparable Teo, our panel firms. So it's always good to keep an eye on how much we're doing compared to them. In your opinion, what makes
Rob Hanna: 5:37
a greatly where I guess from a private practise on in house perspective. Having seen boat, what were some of the key traits that would be, Yeah, makes him stand out on your
Deenum Gahbri: 5:46
own. Someone that is a willing to get stuck in in the house. I think because each day can be really different A really good sound training. So you know, when things come your way, you're able to kind of just get on with them, but also the ability to speak up. If you don't know something that stands people apart from people that were, just do a transaction or get on with stuff. But if they're not sure of the right way to do it on, they won't ask. That doesn't make you a good clear.
Rob Hanna: 6:22
And, I guess, for people who are not so familiar what sort of the in house roll presents you know, Europe's a senior legal counsel at the moment. Do you want to give us a flavour of what that looks like from a sort of day to day perspective, at sort of a big brand? What challenges that present?
Deenum Gahbri: 6:39
So I work with the asset managers on DH part of my role. I am the lead for SG, So a lot of it is managing risk in terms of our reporting in for mental reporting, which could be CRC. It could be the Diaz reporting we've just completed. It's also making sure that we are lined up with doing things properly in time. It's also the transactional work that I would be doing in terms of landlord and tenant. Um, so that's kind of my day roll. And then on top of that, I've got the other a little bit. I say
Rob Hanna: 7:15
That's a very interesting point. And you know yourself in Denham of Management sometime I had the great pleasure of getting to know you. Every time we've worked with sight of Asian lawyers and, you know, you put on some amazing events. We're very fortunate to be involved in the most recent one that year, which is a landmark event right on. So I guess for people listening in, it's How do you fit it all in? Tell us a bit about your involvement with sour society, of Asian lawyers, people listening in and how that works and how you fit that. Elin,
Deenum Gahbri: 7:46
I literally don't sleep. Anyone that knows me that those I go to bed really late because I kind of prioritise stuff that obviously it's the business as usual staff. Then it will be the origins. Then it will be south of the elementary and things like that. I do it because I really enjoy it. So I think you don't mind then putting in the hard work. Sal is really enjoyable. I've done it for a couple of years now. Yeah,
Rob Hanna: 8:14
What's that? What's what does sow aim to achieve for those people may be quite new to sow. What? Thinking about getting involved in society. What are you trying to move?
Deenum Gahbri: 8:23
Is promoting other lawyers on DH The progression. Mentoring. It's really good to see everything that
Sonia Janday: 8:29
you've done with how you know
Rob Hanna: 8:31
your support, all your hard work. Yeah, I'm literally amazing. Please, when you guys about your marriage, which I think that the level of even since we've been in recent times the level of engagement policy of the event, you just doing more and more I think you've had some real keynote speakers and it had been a real powerful message you've got to try to send down on. So yeah, how does it work? In a working. Is that something you get involved in a weekly basis? Was a monthly Think you're on the committee, right?
Deenum Gahbri: 8:57
I am. Yes, yes. Oh, At the beginning of the year, we each decide certain committee members take responsibility for certain events throughout the year so that you know, you're not You've got something coming up. Say, in June you'll be preparing around sort of march to may time getting kind of venues because promoting it, things like that. So it's not every day a role. If you're involved with the mentoring which I worked on last year, then you'll get queries generally coming through regularly. What we split because we've got barristers on the committee as well. A lot of the queries. Or if I want to go in and neither do training contract, then the lawyers come pick that up. If it's someone to do with pupil edges and when the barristers come pick it up so we just share the workload, which is really good. It works well, Yeah,
Rob Hanna: 9:48
that's that's great. Think Tina and I absolutely love last know,
Deenum Gahbri: 9:52
many of you are actually on the committee that normally around 12 pending on workload. Yeah. Okay, And if
Rob Hanna: 9:58
people are thinking of wanting to join South, how can they go about doing that?
Deenum Gahbri: 10:01
So we have forms. Actually, it's coming up quite soon. We have forms on our Web site on the South website, which you just need to complete and then send off. And then we haven't a GM coming up a later on this month where candidates will just stand up, say a little bit about yourself how you could help sow, and then we'll have oat boats. Yeah, on
Rob Hanna: 10:21
Dina mentioned at the top of that, you know, congratulations, recent award winner thing saying offer that she didn't expect it. I'm sure she didn't. But demon I will quietly confident Tough competition. But this I really deserve. So you want to tell us a bit about your divers to work and how it let's 20.
Deenum Gahbri: 10:42
Okay, so I think I'm really, really passionate about mentoring in that first a bit, because when I started out in my career, I didn't have help or assistance from others that looked like me or sounded like May know who had my background. That was really hard. And I don't want anyone else coming into the profession to feel like that. We've got six communities, one of which is origins, one which celebrates cultural differences. So we had elections on DH. Then people stood for co chair roll, which I got last year. So with that came a lot of work that I could do within Aviva to push forward diversity. So I'm involved with the multi culture professional forum at the House of Lords. Ah, well failed for the first time this year it within a Viva. We held certain events and I think the events for Ramadan. We produced little prayer time tables which we gave out to all our staff that would like them. But we also did some outreach. So to promote Aviva on DH origins was a prospective employer which people don't a lot people don't associate Aviva and insurer with kind of blame employment. We did some outreach at local mosques and handed out the prayer timetables there which went round really well as well. So little things like that is a second year where we have introduced an internship programme under social mobility charities and then this year we've just opened a prayer room. So we've done a lot of stuff under the origins brand, which went towards the whole diversity champion.
Rob Hanna: 12:26
So there we have it. That's why I was rightly rich. It's not just you. It's a team effort. But, you know Well, well, well done, very reserved. And you don't know how you managed think
Deenum Gahbri: 12:40
s what challenges did you actually face? You know,
Sonia Janday: 12:43
day to day, moving from London to Norwich. Usually that's
Deenum Gahbri: 12:46
well, basically, I'm based in Norwich. Yes, yes. So a lot of meetings up in our London office. So it's travelling kind of once a week, Possibly. Do you enjoy that? I d'oh, Because when people know that I'm here, they're like, Okay, you're in the office. Can you just come and sit down with this person or meet this person? So that's really useful. But again, the travelling is really tiring. But you have lovely offices on
Rob Hanna: 13:12
E guys. So you know, I get everyone. Just hate to be the office. You're really
Deenum Gahbri: 13:20
shocked, but I average two or three hours a night. I think I probably
Rob Hanna: 13:25
do maybe four or five. That's two night's sleep for me. Okay? Yeah, exactly. So all the people in private practise thinking. I thought you've been houses. Dio you take more, right?
Deenum Gahbri: 13:36
I just I like to keep busy. I like to keep busy. I a lot people don't know. But I wasn't very well a few years back. So when I came back and paint back into work full time, I really wanted Teo Just throw myself in it and kind of in a way, it was I'm better
Sonia Janday: 13:53
than my illness on DH. That's kind of what started it off. And now I'm here. It's just kind of It's just gone from there.
Rob Hanna: 14:00
Case on DH. We talked a little bit about your mentoring and volunteering work. I think there's too much dimension in this podcast, but one that I was you know, we talked about what we're talking about. The women of the future programme your involvement with that bastard. Yeah. Do you want to tell? Tell us a bit more about that and again, people, how they completely here but more brother?
Deenum Gahbri: 14:19
Yes. So that was one initiative that have even involved in Once year we go Teo, an annual ambassador's reception around autumn early summer time where we have students around 150 students from different schools. A lot of professional lawyers come in doesn't have to necessarily be a lawyer. But is all professions where we'll have kind of like a small careers workshop on a networking session? So I did one a couple of weeks ago where we had people in from school from sixth form from college people doing a levels people about to go to university. So it's a broad range where they're not quite sure what they want to do in their career. So they just want advice. How do we get into legal profession? What courses should I be looking at in university? Which area of law is really good for May, that kind of thing. How did you get into it? So it's conversations that you would have with probably younger members of your family, really? But just on a bigger scale
Rob Hanna: 15:21
on DH networking is a theme that we've had throughout a podcast
Deenum Gahbri: 15:25
Syria, and
Rob Hanna: 15:26
I know that something you do a hell of a lot of well, do you want to sort of share your tips or how you go about your networking in the legal profession as a sort of, you know, seeing me
Deenum Gahbri: 15:35
so in house were quite lucky We don't have to go out and find clients have one client, which is really easy. But networking is really important, I think, in terms of your own professional development or if you ever want to move on, kind of just keeping contact.
Rob Hanna: 15:51
There is a life after
Deenum Gahbri: 15:54
s. So I just started it. I think for Asian women lawyers is where I started before I even go on to sow going to events the law society, meeting other lawyers in my in my roll on in house. I don't mix with any other companies out of work. So it was kind of just a note to myself that I need to get out there and do it, really, And that's where it started. Is that something that you really enjoy? Sometimes it's just tiring. I think when you've got a lot on and you see, actually I need to go to that event. But that's one of the reasons why I joined Saleh's well just to meet more people.
Rob Hanna: 16:33
Yeah, and as we said at the top, works from super impressive firms as well. You're with Herbert Smith, of course. Qualified. They're qualified there. Indeed. You know what do you most. What did you most enjoy about your time in pro prices again? Maybe people thinking about sort of thank you out me back, Teo in house from in half, right practise. Or people going through their journey. What did you do?
Deenum Gahbri: 16:55
The work. The work was really good. The training was fab. The team was brilliant, I think. Camaraderie. You get in private practise as well. So you're all working on transactions. Similar hours. End of the evening. You go downstairs like her. Her bees were quite lucky. We had restaurants on site. So you go down for dinner, have a snappy comeback up finish. You work. The typing support is really good. Surprise. Really good. Because you don't get a lot of that in house sometimes. But it's little things like that. Really? Yeah. Can you see yourself? Maybe about going back into private practise? I don't know. I'd consider it if the opportunity came along. I always say Never say no. Always say yes. If I make a mistake, I'll learn from it. If I don't make a mistake, I do. Well, then, yeah, that's really great. Just the one.
Rob Hanna: 17:48
Yeah. No. Well set. Yeah. On if you can't believe how much I said is your introduction you'il that already. So I know they want me next. Have you on a bird out to fit it all in. But we've been asking for Nestle plans and vision 2020. No doubt you've got loads of exciting plans, but what do you sort of what have you got geared up for the new year that you're passionate about or want to tell people about?
Deenum Gahbri: 18:09
Um, I was gonna say sleep e don't know. I just know I haven't thought about it. I think I'm just got to the point. That moment where this year, The last few months, I've been a panel speaker for into law, which is something I never thought I'd do. I never thought I'd do the pod cars. I never thought I'd win an award. So for me, I'm just kind of reflecting in that and how I got here before even thinking what is going on coming in 2020? Yeah. So, Sonia, No. I think when we last met your offices and Aviva,
Sonia Janday: 18:46
you guys were planning these thie dividing celebrations you have There was a lot going on. Oh,
Deenum Gahbri: 18:50
yes, you know, maybe kind of Give us some information
Sonia Janday: 18:53
on you know what was happening there. So for the volley we've had a couple of years, we've had really small celebrations which are getting bigger and bigger up it. Like our awards
Deenum Gahbri: 19:02
three day. I think the day you came to our offices, we just had Awesome Helen's
Sonia Janday: 19:09
event. So it was one of the biggest ones. Actually, we had a lot dancers in, um, we had a lot star gang up on having dancing lessons. We had Indian sweets and samosas being handed out all throughout the building on DH. It's just to raise an awareness of what the volley means. Two people, two staff members on DH. I suppose the reason that we do a lot of events and celebrate law festivals as Aviva, we need to be reflective of our customers, but we also need to be reflective of our staff. So it's just two raising an awareness on DH educational piece Teo. Other people that maybe won't have that when they leave the office or learn about it or have any input in celebrations like that. Well, I think it's great. I think it was great you done? I think I just
Deenum Gahbri: 19:59
missed it. But you ever think about half an hour? But no,
Sonia Janday: 20:02
it looked amazing. Yes, yeah. So there's always things in the diary
Rob Hanna: 20:07
that's really interesting. Just lead you back to when you made the comment about GI in private practise versus in houses. We did a recording the other week around League Tech on how that's creeping in. Do you want to talk about your experiences with legal tech versus being in private practise versus being in house and whether you're pro tech or what you're wanted?
Deenum Gahbri: 20:28
A zit protect, I suppose. The
Sonia Janday: 20:30
support you get on the ICTY front in hat, in private practise goes a lot of thie, bigger firms. I know, Herbie said. We have 24 hour typing support. We have 24 hours said something goes wrong. You can pick up the phone at any time of day or night. We do get the 24 hour support with viva, but you're defending a line. You can't actually go to somebody and see somebody. Town's days like where we would have the I t. Guys s O that sometimes quite difficult. If you're working on a really big transaction in terms of other support. We are in house. Often you are restricted by budget and costs. So something might be really nice that other firms have got him. We're working against with other panel firms, but you might miss it, not necessarily have it just because of the ostrich straits. We don't have a secretarial support. You do your own typing in house. Do
Deenum Gahbri: 21:25
miss that from a little bit. But I really fast
Rob Hanna: 21:32
when you speak three extra someone's listening way, and we get asked a lot of common questions from newly qualified lawyers. And because you've seen it from both sides in house bourbon, private practise, you know, do you think upon qualifying people should be considering an in house career? Do you think it would benefit from getting more private, perhaps experience going in or is it just case by case basis?
Sonia Janday: 21:55
I think it's always better just stay in private practise for a little while before moving in house. Purely because you're going to get really good exposure to different things, you'll be confident in them. You become an expert in particular areas before you move in house in house, the breath of work is so broad, but it's going to be difficult to kind of familiarise herself with one particular you don't have that time you live, you're going to be watched your in house, That's it. Everything is gonna come your way. So it's just being confident in what you know, before you move,
Rob Hanna: 22:32
we always suggest, you know, great people need to get some common experiences first to sort of, you know, some of the trouble he buys. So again, is that something you would advocate for people? Maybe if they're a sort of not Teo three peaks. Try before you buy gets a comment about
Sonia Janday: 22:50
Yeah. No, definitely. Yeah. Gets a common you like with firm the team and just do it. Yeah, but I think when you're much younger as well as an associate think it's always good to kind of, you know, have a buzz in private practise. But yeah, or, you know, you do decide to move in hands. Yeah, absolutely. What do you
Rob Hanna: 23:10
think of some of the challenges for people who are in private practise trying to get into a house What the people need to be thinking about central challenges? You?
Sonia Janday: 23:21
I think One of them is the fact that when your in house you are working with the client. And so any advice that you give your advising your client and they're going to take that on board on Teo A particular kind of If they ask you a question, you need to give a response. But in private practise, you can stand on the fence a little bit on the fence, so you're given the options and they make the decision. But when your in house you kind of have tio, you can lead a decision on the client. Picked that on board, so it's it's completely different. Teo, being in private practise is really good. You get to know your client really well. You know what? They'll accept what they won't accept how far you can put push them. But at the end of the day, you're going to help them make that decision rather than just giving them advice. And then they go with anything. If you could change any part of your current role, what would it be? Money? Just No, I e think there's anything you know. I always thought we'd recovery. I moved in
Deenum Gahbri: 24:36
house. I always thought when I when I started my career.
Sonia Janday: 24:38
I've been in places to three years, two years, 23 years. It's the kind of dumb thing when you're in London, you'll move. You'll get experience on, then you'll move somewhere else and you'll get a bit more experience and you further your career. That way. When I moved in house, I actually thought that I would be there 2 to 5 years tops on. It's coming on 15 and that's saying something. The work is brilliant. The client is just amazing on DH. The people that I have one of the side of transactions partners. So it tells you the quality of the work that we do in our team. What would you say? You enjoy the most of our clients Really good. That makes a really big difference. Do you get on with him?
Rob Hanna: 25:19
And I'm just quite intrigued because we get lots of people who are so transfixed on London. Yeah, actually, you're working for a major organisation outside of London on for people in Afghanistan and I gotta be in lands where the hot Yes, there is undoubtedly good quality way work in London, but the storey opportunities elsewhere in the UK right? I think you've seen that out in Norris in the quality of what you're getting involved in is equally, if not Paul, what you were doing in London.
Sonia Janday: 25:43
Absolutely. I think if you got the right job and you're getting the exposure to the right piece of work, then move. Even if it's going to be temporary, you don't have to do anything forever. Get your experience on DH. Then we will know which is any two hour train journey away. So it's not like the other end of the world are there. You
Deenum Gahbri: 26:04
drive down Tony, I driving thie
Sonia Janday: 26:09
drive or get the train
Rob Hanna: 26:12
on DH. As I said, we personally did. Right? I think you're superwoman, but in terms of, you know, nothing to do with your legal sort of suits and extracurricular. What do you do for downtime? What keeps you know it's on your Netflix listening to music that helps me relax. I'm watching white colour of the moment. Has anyone
Deenum Gahbri: 26:35
seen a tio? I'm just watching
Sonia Janday: 26:42
travellers, actually. Yeah, yes, yes, it's good. I'm on my third episode, though, so I'm just save it for the journey back
Rob Hanna: 26:50
think from our side. That's kind of very insightful is a good step. Is there any sort of passing or lasting comments you'd like to say about sort of in house versus fire practise of the people listening in? Because considering one over the others think you would say it's a sort of final comment to those people.
Sonia Janday: 27:09
I think if you are thinking of moving house, then speak to as many in house lawyers as you can and get an idea of what they do because each team is different. Yeah,
Rob Hanna: 27:18
I think so.
Sonia Janday: 27:20
Yeah. So the more you do that more, you get some inside before you make that decision.
Rob Hanna: 27:26
Great stuff. Can I just say Deenum? Delighted to finally have you on the podcast with me today. Congratulations. Once again, I think it's gonna be a hell of a year to trump 2019. Congratulations. Everything you've achieved. Thanks so much for listening. Really grateful for that and yeah, I guess we should wish you will. Best for 2020.
Deenum Gahbri: 27:45
Thank you ever so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you.
Rob Hanna: 27:49
We're taking a break after this week for the holiday season. So want to wish you all a great festive period and a happy New Year in advance will obviously got Lots of new guests lined up 2020 so stating.