This week on the Legally Speaking Podcast, our host Rob Hanna is joined by Electra Japonas, Founder of The Law Boutique, which aims to transform in-house legal teams through legal design, legal operations, and innovation. They are on a journey with a clear vision of connecting Legal with the rest of the business.
Electra shares her fascinating insights into legal operations, what they mean and how to really do them? Electra and her team are pioneering all things ‘legal design’ and how contracts can be made more engaging for the masses. As just one example, they’ve even mastered the art of making Terms & Conditions entertaining to read!
The Law Boutique’s amazing team was recently Highly Commended at the Modern Law Awards 2020, and have worked with clients such as Monzo, Tide, Curve, and Babylon.
In this episode, we discuss:
This week on the Legally Speaking Podcast, our host Rob Hanna is joined by Electra Japonas, Founder of The Law Boutique, which aims to transform in-house legal teams through legal design, legal operations, and innovation. They are on a journey with a clear vision of connecting Legal with the rest of the business.
Electra shares her fascinating insights into legal operations, what they mean and how to really do them? Electra and her team are pioneering all things ‘legal design’ and how contracts can be made more engaging for the masses. As just one example, they’ve even mastered the art of making Terms & Conditions entertaining to read!
The Law Boutique’s amazing team was recently Highly Commended at the Modern Law Awards 2020, and have worked with clients such as Monzo, Tide, Curve, and Babylon.
In this episode, we discuss:
Rob Hanna: 0:00
Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast powered by Kissoon Carr. I'm your host, Rob Hanna. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Electra Japonas the Founder of The Law Boutique. So welcome.
Electra Japonas: 0:12
Thank you. Thanks for having me a
Rob Hanna: 0:13
pleasure. You may be aware you're saying offer that we still have in season two are customary question on the scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very real, how real do you rate the TV series Suits?
Electra Japonas: 0:27
God, 1.5. Okay.
Rob Hanna: 0:31
Why?
Electra Japonas: 0:32
Because that's definitely not real life at all and I think everyone's got a drinking problem as well, cause who drinks so much whiskey at 10 a.m.
Rob Hanna: 0:41
Good point. Good point. Yes, I think that maybe even just want Yeah, just the one. This is ground it down at one. Okay, so you've got such an impressive journey, as I mentioned at the top found of the law boutique. But let's go back a step, but tell us a bit more about your background.
Electra Japonas: 0:59
Okay? So I was born and raised in Cyprus. British mom hits the accent and Then I studied in the UK I went back to Cyprus. I did my bar exam on. Then I decided that Cyprus was a little bit too small for me, so I came back and I did a master's in international business law, and while I was doing that, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I didn't really want tohave a traditional kind of legal trajectory, because I always I always wanted to do something a bit different. So I was really lucky to get a job at the European Space Agency in Holland. And then I went and I did a graduate programme with them, followed by a stint in Germany on. Then, after I've moved around a little bit, I decided to settle in London on DH. Throughout my career, I was always working in a tech environment, so I was always really conscious about the fact that as a lawyer, you need to be speaking the language of the engineer or the tech person you're talking to. They're very structured in the way they operate, or they have bean in the companies that I worked for. So then when I started working with law firms as I moved into different companies and was doing more commercial rolls. When I started working your farms, I realised that there was a disparity between the way lawyers worked on the way the business operated on DH. That that meant that you was he just have someone who was translating. So I thought, Why is it like that? Why can't lawyers Why don't always work in a way that's conducive to the rest of the business. And what can I do to change that? Andi, I started the lobby t to do just that.
Rob Hanna: 2:31
Okay? We definitely talked lots about the law booty, but I guess going back Cyprus Yeah, we're about I mean, I've been on hold. A case is that we fly. It's a lot of Cory flying papeles
Electra Japonas: 2:42
you Khun. Well, Cyprus is so tiny that you can fly to either of those because limits are equidistant from both. Um, but yes.
Rob Hanna: 2:50
Okay. Yeah. Would you recommend it for whole days?
Electra Japonas: 2:53
Definitely. Is beautiful. It's small. If you rent a car. It's one of the best holiday destinations. Or even though I'm biassed, I do think that
Rob Hanna: 3:02
Yeah, Okay. Andi, you mentioned there You thought about wanting You should've found a gap with regards to the law beauty. But what really fuelled your passion for wanting to start it?
Electra Japonas: 3:14
If I'm honest, it was probably frustration at the way that it was almost impossible to get. The type of support I need is an in house lawyer from the law firms I worked with
Rob Hanna: 3:24
during the flavour of some of those organisations. You're working with just two people.
Electra Japonas: 3:28
Yes, I worked with my last and I worked with a big tobacco company on DH. I worked in the I T department basically delivering this project, which was worth a lot of money on DH to negotiate the contract. Uh, that we were negotiating. It took four months well, in a law firm and we working really late nights on DH at the end of that process, I thought, What what was the real value? Add here on my conclusion wass the fact that the real value add was the insurance policy that the law firm had because even though we were in a room with really bright lawyers, they didn't really understand the business, which meant that wherever they gave us, we needed to translate as the in house team needed to translate it into the operational side, which is often really difficult. So I got to the point. We were just letting stuff go through, and then we thought, I'll just change it. You change requests And I thought, I'm sure the lawyers don't want to be those people. Yeah, so that's what that's what fuelled every yl vision for a gap in the market. And also, I feel like laws should be more fun. I
Rob Hanna: 4:34
agree. And so this podcast and yeah, we were always saying, You know, it's really interesting. You've had lots of people, from partners to associates, tow business owners. You know, it's not all stuffy, right?
Electra Japonas: 4:43
Yeah, it's No, it's no bond. Also, if you look at a legal document now, it's written by lawyers for lawyers. But what if we made it more engaging, prettier, something people want toe read? Really? What would that make lawyers more popular as well? And also the very topic a bit more fun? I
Rob Hanna: 5:03
think one thing you've touched on there as well it is before simplifying things, I think with language and legal language, and people get really clear, you know, caught up in it. You want to talk about that and sort of how the law boutique sort of fits into all of that solution as well.
Electra Japonas: 5:17
Yeah. I mean, if you look if you look at any fast growth organisation, we worked predominantly with fast growth hypergrowth organisations they need to do business really quickly on deal speed is an advantage, but if you give someone in the business, say a sales person and nd a, there's written in our cake English with really small writing written over two columns, this is a trick that lawyers use. If you write a document in two columns, you usually get less red lines back. But if you didn't do that and you simplify the language and the way that it was written in the way that it looked, wouldn't that sales person want to engage with that document? Maur. If they want to engage with it more than they're happier to pick it up and use it and get the other party to sign it, rather than getting 1/3 party to give them their India, which then creates more work for the legal team? It's really important that we apply what we called design thinking tow law, because that basically makes our life easier. It makes people look us in a more human life.
Rob Hanna: 6:18
Yeah, no Well set. Completely agree on DH bu. Then what have been some of the How long's a little beauty even going for when we're
Electra Japonas: 6:24
going into our third year? Yeah.
Rob Hanna: 6:27
You know, I think a lot of people find it quite humbling in terms of learning people's journey, So it's still relatively new. Yeah, obviously you're doing massively successful now, and it's great to see, but what have been some of the challenges for you sort of going on Those initial three years
Electra Japonas: 6:41
for isn't suspected rather than from the topic that we're trying. Teo, get people to understand a bit more at the beginning of any business. I think you do whatever works given to you so that you can pay the bills on DH. Any work that comes your way, you might view as validation, so you'll just pick up at work but actually ends up taking you away from what you really want to be doing or what you're really good at. So I think in the first year that was our biggest challenge trying to stay afloat whilst doing this stuff that wasn't necessarily what way really wanted to do
Rob Hanna: 7:17
so. I think definitely terms of maybe inspiring other self discipline focus. Trying to kind of stay in that that lady as much as you can while balancing it from my client's perspective is probably advice and state.
Electra Japonas: 7:27
I'm not sure if I would advise anyone anything, because it's really difficult to start your own thing. And so if you need to do certain things toe to survive and do those things, but know that there will come a point where you say, actually, I need to be doing these website teas and sees because I want to work on this huge legal ops project. Maybe not huge but Bigley lots project that's going to help at this type of value, which is what I really want to be doing. Yeah, yeah.
Rob Hanna: 7:55
Three. You guys in terms of how do you try to different yourself? Because I think what you're doing is very innovative, and I know you're from Texas Tech enthusiast and think you're doing great stuff. But what do you think makes you guys stand out from from from the crowd
Electra Japonas: 8:08
we know your standard lawyer. We realised the value of law and legal services, of course, but I think that in order to keep up with the way the rest of the world is going, we need to deliver law differently on we help lawyers do just that,
Rob Hanna: 8:26
and you touched on that. So you cut costs through legal design. But you want to maybe kind of unpacked that little bit more for people listening in there quite new to this court?
Electra Japonas: 8:33
Sure, yeah, and I think I think that we talk about legal design, but I'd like to remove the word legal from that phrase. But I think generally people need to start thinking designed thinking rather than legal design, because legal design is just is just the same as design thinking. So you would take a human centric approach to everything that you do, which means that before you design, let's take a privacy policy is an example. Before you design a privacy policy, I think the first thing to think about isn't necessarily is this document legally compliant because as a lawyer, you know how to do that. The first thing is, who's going to read this? Who is this content being being written for on does that person really want to read this on? If no. Is it important that they read it? And if so, how do you make it more readable? How do you make it more engaging? Maur entertaining? How do you get people Teo to pay attention to this thing that you're going to spend a long time creating? And then after that, of course, you think about the law as well. But the law can slot into an overarching framework that you can think about. But of course we're not trained like that. So lawyers are trained to be more risk of us. They're trained. Teo. Make sure that everything's in there to think about every possible scenario on DH. It's great because it makes you. It makes you very, very bastard, and whatever you do is really fall through. But there's another element, but I think needs to people's needs start considering.
Rob Hanna: 10:01
Yeah, I think you put that really, really well. I think from just sort of analysing that it's a case of you have got this complex stuff. You have what these chunky documents you can provide a solution which basically simplifies all that sustain content in the organisation come really understand it and it builds their confidence up, which in turn, then save time, right? Exactly. Yeah, I think that's really smart. And I think that's a credit to what you guys doing in the moment. So on that were in 2020. I think I got fed up last year of asking people what their vision, 2020 years so but for this year and the next decade, although technically someone said to me the other day that this is not a new decade on its 2020 once officially new decade, but I don't know. So let's just say we're in a new decade. But for this year, what? What plans have you got on what's lined up?
Electra Japonas: 10:46
I think our plan is to get really good at what we're doing in terms of messaging it, because what we're doing is quite innovative and I'd like to communicate it better. I think that takes time. It takes a lot of time to work out exactly what your messaging should be on. Also, we'd like to continue working with the really cool clients that were working with at the moment. I'm really making a difference the way that they operate on their internal branding. If you like Esso, we, instead of saying I've got all these plans still, these new things I actually want to get. I want to nail what we're doing now.
Rob Hanna: 11:23
Okay, now that's that's very modest of you as well on you mentioned clients. How did you initially win when clients? Because now I know it's probably, you know, a lot of repeat business is the river was, it's your networks were established, but from the outset, how did you How did you go about that? And how have you got about fostering those relationships as well?
Electra Japonas: 11:40
So the first client I got was from a start up group on Facebook, So I just went on to this Facebook group and I said, Hi, I'm thinking of leaving my job and doing this thing that anyone needs support when I got to clients in the first day on then, since then, it's been it's been word of mouth. It's bean relationships from previous jobs on DH. It's quite a small ecosystem. Eso word gets around. Yeah, and I think that's that's how you've done it linked. It has been really helpful is We're actually Yeah.
Rob Hanna: 12:10
So it's only gonna go straight for the shampoo. That everyone? I mean, they're even appetising on national TV. Really? They're going places on DH. Okay, so for you, in terms of your business, slightly different question. But what do you think makes a great lawyer for your business in terms of engaging what would be a good lawyer in Europe?
Electra Japonas: 12:29
I think a good lawyer is Is someone who is creative. Yeah, I don't I don't think that the word creative and law go hand in hand, always in people's minds. But I think you have to be a creative person to be a lawyer because we were wordsmiths. Someway, we like to take something and freeze it in a certain way. So that has a certain meanings. Words matter. And that's a creative process that you engage your you engage the creative part of your brain. The rest you can look up on DH. So I think a good lawyer is a creative lawyer. And that's the same with us. Someone who's ready, Tio Tio, think differently about the way that we do our jobs.
Rob Hanna: 13:09
Yeah. No. Well said on DH, you as an extension of that. You are a GPR practitioner that came into force in May 2018 even a long time before that. But people So I think about May 2018. But bu what they're still some of the common misconceptions about GDP are and what you see from from from people generally
Electra Japonas: 13:30
a lot of things. A lot of things about GDP are misconceptions. I don't The whole saga with the emails feeling your inbox now to get your consent was a bit mad. I'm sure that people just sick of seeing those emails in their inbox. But I think the calmest conceptions are the GPR is just a pain. Actually, being really ethical about your data practises will foster trust. It will get you more clients in the long term on DH. People now expect it. So since GDP, our people's people's perspective around their rights and what they can and can't do or exercise has increased. So I think companies have started to realise that,
Rob Hanna: 14:11
okay, And you as a business owner, a successful business people always keen to hear about networking. It's his massive thing online and are flying now. But how do you go about doing your networking and particularly the legal sector. I
Electra Japonas: 14:26
mean, I can't think of anything worse than being forced into a room with, you know, a glass of wine and having to start conversations with people. I don't think that's a great image in anyone's head. So I think networking. I just think relations, relationships If you spend time in the relationships and that person's gonna tell another person for Yeah, I haven't really deliberately networks If that makes sense,
Rob Hanna: 14:50
yeah, I think the key is when I say people networking might use that that glass of wine, that scenario, that's so 20 years. No way, like 20 years on now that so many resources and detective, we're talking about a tech enthusiasts and someone is trying to streamline process, you know, being quite savvy and using a lot of online tools and e networking and things like that. I find it massively beneficial on these days. Okay, on DH in terms ofthe accolades, you know, you're in your third year now doing very, very well. Is there a particular accolade you would liketo win or you've got in your sight for the loot, more boutique? Or as you said just before you just want to kind of take this year to come.
Electra Japonas: 15:29
Eso we've just bean. We've just been shortlisted for the modern lore awards. 2020. Congratulations. Thank you.
Rob Hanna: 15:35
Do we here around
Electra Japonas: 15:36
us? I think it's too, too this year, so I'm not sure exactly when. But that would be amazing, because that's exactly what we're doing. Modernising law.
Rob Hanna: 15:46
Yeah, exactly. For all you legally speaking, listen that she's definitely get behind these guys for that as well. Stay tuned. What? Have you seen some of the greatest trend changes since being connected to the law? And what do you foresee as well on the legal sector happening?
Electra Japonas: 16:02
I I think I've seen some great trend changes. I think people are talking about tech. They're talking about legal operations. I think there's still some misunderstanding about what legal ops actually means. I think people think that it's tech, but it's actually a more holistic way of working. But people are thinking about it on DH. I look at these innovative companies and they hire a lawyer. They hire a GC is a soul council on. Then that lawyer there first higher will be illegal ops person, which I think is super smart. Because if you can set up your function in a scalable way, how you gonna scare with the rest of the business?
Rob Hanna: 16:36
Yeah. No, definitely on dso for you. What do you think makes a good legal ops person,
Electra Japonas: 16:41
I think. Legal ops. I think it is the understanding that legal operations means understanding what the business strategy is, what your objectives need to be as a legal team on then creating a target operating model that's going to support that.
Rob Hanna: 16:53
Yeah. Okay, Andi, you know, big theme again for this this year is about people having mentors or wanting tops kill themselves, particularly guarding tech on the legal spaces. Have you got your own mentors? How would you advise people may be going about getting Mentos if they want to immerse themselves in upscale himself, particularly in these sort of areas?
Electra Japonas: 17:12
Yeah, I think to your point earlier, doing it digitally is great because you can see the people that are talking about the topics that you're interested in. I used twitter I use linked in on. Then if you reach out to people, it's amazing how much people are happy to help you but people are quite generous with their time when you're giving them a platform to talk about the thing that they're passionate about. So keeping that in mind and making an effort to connect with these people has bean invaluable on also talking to other people that have started a business, even if it's in a completely different field in understanding How did how did their processes work? Who are you using for this piece of work? Just connecting.
Rob Hanna: 17:55
Yeah. On one question, I wanted to ask you so I'm a big kid, But you did work for Walt Disney s. So how did you find time there? Did you get those free stuff?
Electra Japonas: 18:04
Got loads of free stuff? Yeah. So Christmas present sources sorted, sorted. And if you have any kids in the family, that's a perfect place to work. And it was amazing to see how a large organisation that such so powerful in terms of brand works.
Rob Hanna: 18:19
Yeah, and that's really interesting about your critics. You kind of work through, as they say, like Walt Disney. Then you work for a leading sort of professional services firm. He worked in a large serving a multi multi multi 1,000,000,000 public on back of business. You've got all this knowledge and then you kind of just plug that into the law boutique and you're just playing with it, right? That's where I see it. But is it as simple as that is, probably. I'm making it sound like it's just a straightforward thing. But yeah, hasn't been that easy for you in terms of kind of making everything happen. Or have you had lots of sort of setbacks along the way?
Electra Japonas: 18:50
Starting a business is is one of the hardest things that you can do is definitely being my biggest challenge. Haven't had kids get but that could, you know, I feel like it's on power in a way because it is so difficult to keep yourself motivated. The biggest challenge for me was actually not having any feedback, because when you've got a boss, you can ask your boss. How is that? And then I'll say it was It was really it was crap, but it was really good on DSO if you don't have that trying to trying to be level headed about what you're doing and whether that makes sense is really challenging
Rob Hanna: 19:25
any destruction, it there when you're not working on the business, what do you try to do for downtime? Because you do something is important to sort of. Rest will take a break. I know it's on your mind 24 7 But do you have anything that you kind of go to is your sort of down time,
Electra Japonas: 19:38
um, like lifting heavy weights in the gym. I really like that. I like to go to food markets. London's amazing, I think, for that everyone's capital. Well, I live right on top of one called more B street market coaches. Amazing.
Rob Hanna: 19:54
That's one I haven't
Electra Japonas: 19:55
done. All you've got to hear sounds great. Everyday only weekends. But yeah, yeah, yeah,
Rob Hanna: 20:05
okay. Team is a big thing as well. Then any organisation have you found, sort of, you know, building a business, but also building a team. And you know what's that then produced your clients in terms of you know, you've built your built your business. But having found that building your own team and then kind of problem that team into sort of developing on offering solutions to your clients.
Electra Japonas: 20:24
Yeah, I think team is probably the most important part of any business and when you first start, you might think that you could do a lot of stuff yourself. You can't on you don't even if you can capability. You don't have the headspace on DH. It's best that you focus on a few things rather than everything. So building a team just to be honest, a lot of it has been trial and error. So some people came into the business having a different concept of what it would be like, which is fair enough because what we do is quite new. But then the team that we currently have is fantastic on DH since we've since we've had a team of got three people in the court e but seven more widely since we've had this team. It's just been so much easier because you can give people something, they can run with it and then you, Khun, do what you need to be doing.
Rob Hanna: 21:15
Yeah, exactly on DH in terms of other things you're involved in, Do you do anything else with the goddess of adding value to the legal community? Anything else particularly passionate in
Electra Japonas: 21:25
I'm really passionate about getting the law society on the sluices regulation authority to realise that we need a bit of support when it comes Teo truly innovating and passing on the the message that sad things would benefit from a bit of innovation.
Rob Hanna: 21:45
Do you think that's quite hard challenge to its Vincent? To make that happen
Electra Japonas: 21:48
is hard, but there. But they're listening and their teams that are set up within these thes organisations to do just that. So I'm hopeful.
Rob Hanna: 21:58
Okay, Great. And is there within your clients? Is there a particular set or or Harry most enjoy in terms of providing solutions or you quiet Gnostic
Electra Japonas: 22:08
WeII worked predominantly with Finn techs, which I really enjoy because it's quite a complex regulatory landscape. But also they're really open to new ways of working. And they need it. They need support with making stuff work better. S o. I'm really enjoying working about sector. Although, having said that, we could apply the way that we worked on other sectors as well. But mainly we work with technology companies.
Rob Hanna: 22:33
Yeah, I'm a tech enthusiasts as well. What's been the cause of the attacks we've seen this year, or what you most excited about this in the wings? Yeah.
Electra Japonas: 22:41
Coolest Turk. Coolest Turk. I think what's cool is using a I for things that are really mundane and time consuming.
Rob Hanna: 22:54
So legal operations. Let's talk about that. Give us your sort of definitive definition of what it's all about.
Electra Japonas: 23:01
Yeah, so Legal operations is the buzzword of the moment. People are talking about it. They're hiring people that called legal operations specialist Saand. People are fast growth organisations are thinking about this Legal operations is something that people think means just tech. It doesn't, in fact, is something much more realistic than that's looking at the way that you work, seeing where inefficiencies might lie on DH, then updating the way that you work or changing up also embedding automation and take at this point to make sure that you're working the most efficient way possible. Because if you think about it, if you're a small organisation or even a larger one, you've only got a finite amount of legal resources and legal resources are expensive. Andi, what we do is sometimes very high risk, so we need to make sure that the resources that we have are not being used for things are necessary. So if you could automate a process, then do that. If you can pass on a process to another part of the business, then we should be thinking about how to do that. There is absolutely no reason for the legal team to review every single India because it's a simple document with maybe 13 or 14 main points that someone in the sales team, with the right training and the right type of document can do for you. Yeah, and that might make some lawyers feel anxious. But really, there isn't a reason for that to be the case. So illegal operations is a is a way to make your teamwork or efficiently on more in line with the rest of the business.
Rob Hanna: 24:31
Okay, what do you think? Some of the challenges without difficulties or you mentioned other slits with some of the sales people picking up from your experience? What have you seen go wrong? And you just talk about some of the headaches that as well,
Electra Japonas: 24:44
that's a good question. I think that the main issue is quite a deep one on. I think that's the fact that as a lawyer, you trained to always know the answer. You train, too, not be wrong because the stakes are high. So what happens is that you sort of lose. You lose touch with your ability to be vulnerable in the workplace. On when you're not terrible in the workplace, you don't ask questions. Andi, this is not. This does not apply to all noise at all, but I think it's one of the main themes that I've seen. When you're not comfortable with being wound up in the workplace and saying, I don't know, how do you think I should be doing this better? You You stop yourself from being able to apply design thinking, which is effectively putting the user at them in the middle, in the centre of everything that you do. So there's almost a mindset shift I think is required and we're human on DH. We often don't know on DH were not trained. Teo be doing legal operations and were not trained. Teo be thinking in terms of scale, ability, the way the rest of the businesses Yeah, and that's fine.
Rob Hanna: 25:52
Yeah. Yeah. And you took from it there, but legal design as well. That's a dig deeper into that. Tell us. Tell us more about that.
Electra Japonas: 25:59
So legal design is a very simple concept. It stems from just general design thinking, which has been used for decades and effectively. It's a way of making sure that everything that you're creating is suitable for the end user. So we recently did a design thinking workshop, which was just a general one, and they said, Design your ideal wallet. So I designed my ideal will it which was this beautiful bracelet with jewels on here. On each of the George was a button that you pressed when you press that button, you would activate different cards, and then you would use it as a what. I like her like a wireless payment card lis payment. But then the person I interviewed was quite old school, and he loved his leather wallet. He just wanted to have his leather wallet. He just didn't like the fact that it it broke so often. So, you know, you need to make sure that you're designing for the right person, because if I had designed that, will it? That person wouldn't want to use it. Yeah,
Rob Hanna: 26:59
now that's what us well said and again challenges with that because that's completely different type of individuals that more the floors of the new school. So So how do people go about what should they be thinking about trying to marry the suit to find the right solution?
Electra Japonas: 27:10
Yeah, and I think it also is important not to think so much about your person preferences went in the way that you operate. So if you're in, we're in the business. Andi, you don't like using technology you don't like pivot tables and excel. If the rest of the businesses using that on you don't have time or appetite up skill, then bringing support, hire illegal ops, person or illegal ops company to help you put those things in place. Always keeping yourself in mind as the end user, of course, as well as the rest of the business. Because if you can't use it, then what's the point? So just thinking about the fact that your own needs are important, but so are businesses.
Rob Hanna: 27:50
Yeah, very, very well put on Blast Lee. I know we've touched on it throughout, but this is gonna be a big year for law boutique. Is there any sort of final message you want to save people listening in terms of keeping in touch. You're kind of seeing what you guys are up to is really sort of takeaway message people should take with the glasses for beauty.
Electra Japonas: 28:06
So we are holding an event on the fifth of March, and that will be called legal operations. What is it and how do you do it? So I would encourage anyone who wants to find out more to come to her. Even more details go on social media and nicked in and If he if you were to find out more, just contact me.
Rob Hanna: 28:23
Well, I've been thoroughly entertained and I think it's been really interesting, really insightful in terms of power forward thinking you are your business are on where you are. A way of going so from my cell has been an absolute pleasure, having on today so much sharing your insight. Decide to see you feature on this from my side overnight. Thank
Electra Japonas: 28:41
you. Thanks for having me has been great