Ellen (Mentor Mama)
I’m Mentor Mama and today we are going to be talking about something that is so near and dear to my heart, nurturing the godly gifts of creativity. You know, so many of us tend to feel guilty actually when we spend time pursuing creative outlets and perhaps spending time creating makes you feel selfish because you feel like you're taking away time from your children or work or just some other important task. Well, the fact of the matter is that we serve a God who is immensely creative. Just take a look around you and you can see all that he has created. And you know, he has created us in his likeness on purpose. He actually delights in our creative nature and invites us daily to be active in our creativity. So our guest today, Ashlee Gadd, knows firsthand the temptation to shelve our creative side during busy seasons of life. However, once she gave it priority, she quickly learned the benefits of cultivating her creativity like a renewed sense of energy and purpose and enthusiasm which has spilled over into other areas of her life. Well, Ashlee Gadd, author of the book, Create Anyway, the Joy of Pursuing Creativity in the Margins of Motherhood, is the founder of Coffee and Crumbs, which is a beautiful online space where motherhood and storytelling intersect.
As a writer and photographer, Ashlee has spent her entire motherhood creating in the margins. When she's not writing or vacuuming Cheerios out of the carpet, she loves making friends on the internet, eating cereal for dinner, and rearranging bookshelves. She and her husband have three kids and live in Northern California. Please welcome Ashlee.
Ashlee
Thank you, Ellen. That was such a generous introduction. I'm really happy to be here.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yes, I am so excited to talk to you today because this is actually just like one of my favorite topics to talk about because I absolutely love being creative and in many different ways. But I too, like even with grown children struggle prioritizing this area in my life. But yet I know every time I do it, I always feel so good. So why don't you just start out by defining what you mean by creative. Because I think sometimes people think like this applies to like the professional artists. But your definition is actually quite broad in the book. Tell us a little bit about it.
Ashlee
Yeah, I think creativity is one of those words that is inherently intimidating and that women feel too scared to claim for themselves because they have so many preconceived notions about what it means to be creative or what it means to create art or we envision the really crafty mom that, you know, makes her kids lunches into little shapes or we picture scrapbookers or professional artists. I am none of those things and yet I still feel really compelled to use the gifts that God has given me to create beauty in this world. So, I like to just take that word and kind of bring it back down to earth and kind of strip it of those preconceived notions or even the stereotypes that we sometimes attribute to creativity and kind of just redefine you know, the act of creating is the act of making something. And we are making things all the time. We are creating all the time, especially mothers. Mothers are creating all the time. We are creating meals. We are creating memories. We are creating rhythms and traditions. And if you look across the span of one day in the life of a mother, I think we would all be surprised to see exactly how many acts of creating are held in a single day. And so, yeah, that's kind of how I define it.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yeah, and there's just so many different things that we can be creative of. I know like in your book, I mean, well, anything, right? Tending plants in the garden, being a gardener, could be so many different things. And one of the things that I love that you also said was that, you know, your creativity can receive public accolades or just simply bring a smile to your face. And so I found that so freeing.
You know, that if it's just something that brings you joy, that's what matters. Well, Ashlee, tell me your story. Like what inspired you to write a book on the importance of including creativity in your life?
Ashlee
Well, I'm going to be really honest and tell you I never thought I would write a book all by myself. I co-wrote a book with nine of my Coffee and Crumbs teammates a number of years ago and sort of always thought, you know, that was it. That was the opportunity. And I co-wrote this book that we got to do together. And it was a really special project and I didn't really ever think I would set out to write a book on my own and at the risk of maybe over-spiritualizing this answer, I really felt the Lord call me to this. I felt the Lord really just, I mean, even the way that I had the idea for the book, it happened so suddenly and with such urgency. It almost felt, you know, one day like the entire book downloaded in my brain, and I just had this fire in my belly for it. But, you know, the contents of “Create Anyway,” are probably the, it's really the culmination of everything I've learned about motherhood and creativity since I've been a mom. And I'm not as experienced as you are in the motherhood realm. My oldest is only 11. In some ways, I still feel like a newish mom, even though I know having a decade of motherhood under your belt is not nothing. And this is really the book I wish I could have had when I was a new mom and I was sorting through just a lot of tension and a lot of guilt and a lot of maybe broken expectations or even just confusion about how to be a mother and how to make art at the same time and how to not let one of those parts of myself completely fall by the wayside in order to pursue the other. Art has always been really important to me. Writing has always been really, really important to me. And when I first became a mother, I just instantly felt at odds with that desire, you know, because I have this slippery newborn baby on my chest and it feels like what I'm supposed to do is devote every last second of the day to his care and his love. And I felt selfish at times, really wanting to continue writing, to continue taking photos, to continue creating in all the ways that I used to delight in, you know? And it's been such an interesting decade of being a mother because I feel like that's probably one of the biggest shifts I have experienced just in my own heart through even creating Coffee and Crumbs and nurturing that space and continuing to find these little pockets of time and creating in the margins, you know, the Lord has really shown me time and time again that I don't have to let that artistic side of myself fall by the wayside to be a mother, you know, that in actuality creativity is one thing that makes me a whole person and God designed me to be a whole person and that urge and that feeling that stirs in your heart constantly to make things and notice beauty and create beauty in the world that was planted in all of us on purpose for a purpose. And so, that's really my heartbeat behind the book, I think, to speak to that mom who, who maybe at times feels at odds, you know, between feel stretched really thin between her mothering and her love for her children and her daily responsibilities. And also that, that urge and that stirring that won't quit, that won't go away. And you know, this is not a book that tells women they can have it all. You know, I don't really believe in that actually. But I think it's a book that helps reframe the importance of creativity, not just for our own selves, but also for what it can actually do for our families.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Hmm. I love that so much. You know, I was talking to my daughter Ashley about this and she's very creative and artistic as well. But she's so good at making time for it. And she's like, Mom, I think your generation was different. She goes, I've heard over and over again, that, you know, people put aside a whole chunk of their life and raise their kids and they're hoping to get back to that someday. So I mean, where do you think this stigma came from or that has caused us to feel guilty while creating?
Ashlee
Yeah, that's really, that's an interesting take of, you know, I'm so happy to hear that your daughter is really good at making time for that. I don't know that that's such a common experience that I hear even for women in our generation. I think that, you know, just like the time of culture can really play a role in that guilt. I think that, you know, between Pinterest and Instagram and all the messages that are being shoved down mother's throats every day about what it means to be a good mom. And just like the, I think the pictures of what we see online about what it means to be a present, a present mother can sometimes feel at odds with wanting to take a minute for ourselves or take, take the time, take the space to do something that we really, really want to do or that we really, really feel called to do. And so I don't know, I don't want to just blame it straight on social media or what we see online, but I do think that like society's version of what a good mom looks like, I think sometimes can be at odds with the reality of what most of us are actually experiencing from day to day.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So how do moms stop feeling guilty then when it comes to their creative passions?
Ashlee
You know, I wish I had like a vitamin I could sell you or some kind of serum you could just apply on your body and you wouldn't feel this way anymore. But you know, for me, it's been it has been a really long road of really learning to reframe the narrative. And this is again, just an area of my heart that I feel like the Lord has been working out and unkinking over time. But I think, you know, in the very beginning, when I first became a mom, I had such a scarcity mindset about all of it. I thought if I pursue my art, I'm going to be taking something away from my motherhood experience. I'm going to be taking minutes away or I'm going to be taking myself away from my mothering. And likewise, if I throw my whole self into motherhood, I'm going to be taking something away from my art. I'm not going to be a serious writer anymore. I'm not going to be able to give my creative work, the time that it deserves. And it's kind of like everywhere I looked, I just saw subtraction. I just saw how the math didn't check out. It was just scarcity everywhere. There wasn't enough of me. There wasn't enough time. There wasn't enough everything. And I've really been learning over the past decade to flip that narrative on its head and realize in actuality, when I'm making the space to create, my motherhood benefits. And when I am, you know, really just embracing my role as a mother, I'm learning so much about myself and so much about love and so much about the way the world works and watching my kids wonder and be curious and watching them engage in their own imaginations. That infuses itself into my own creative practice and my work is actually better because of my motherhood. And so I've learned to really flip that scarcity mindset on its head to view motherhood as something that actually adds to my art and my art is something that adds to my motherhood. And really just kind of embracing that idea again that when I am making the time to nurture those God-given gifts, my whole family benefits. They don't suffer.
And I think for a long time, that was the narrative, right? Well, if I'm going to be a writer, if I'm going to work on my craft, my family's going to suffer. But in actuality, a mother who works on her craft, a mother that is fulfilled and delighted and finding joy in stewarding her gifts is a better mother. Is a mother that's more patient, more attentive. I have more energy and just more love for my family when I myself am feeling filled up. That overflow is very real. And so those are just some of the ways that I've learned to navigate the guilt. It's, you know, there's no quick fix for it. It's more of a, it's been a real mindset shift for me, I think, by God's grace.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yeah. I know when my kids, probably when my kids were much younger, I wasn't as good, you know, as finding the time for it. But as they started to get older, I just included them in everything that I like to do. So if I was rubber stamping, I'd like give them rubber stamps to do or if I was out and you know, doing gardening, let them plant some seeds or in the kitchen, you know, involving them in the process. Like, what do you say to the, you know, someone who's listening that is saying, I just don't have the time? What do you want that person to do?
Ashlee
Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I think there's so many different seasons in a person's motherhood journey. You know, I've been a mom three times, so I know what it's like to be postpartum, to have the newborn up screaming every night, to be sleep deprived, to have an infant physically attached to your body all hours of the day, and to really feel like you really don't have a sliver of time to be alone or to even think and use your brain because it's not working like it normally does. So that's very real. And I just want to acknowledge that. You know, I think a big practice of mine is really to assess what is realistic in every season in my actual real life. So it's not really helpful for me even right now. I have three kids, 11 and under. They attend, I've got one in middle school, one in elementary and one in preschool. And I have friends right now whose kids are all in, you know, junior high or all are in high school and they have a lot more time physically than I do logistically because their kids are in school all day. And it's not really helpful for me to look at those moms and try to do what they're doing or to try to set a rhythm or routine for myself that matches theirs, right? I have to look at my actual very real life. A mom who is home with a toddler and a newborn is not going to have the same capacity or the same amount of time as a mom who has kids in all day care. And so I think that's just so important to set those realistic expectations. But I would also just encourage that same mom that you would be shocked at how much 10 minutes, 20 minutes really adds up over time. I think so often we tell ourselves, well, you know, I don't have six hours a day, so I might as well not even bother when in actuality, you'd be surprised at what 20 minutes a day can do for your heart, can do for your mind, not to mention can add up over time to create the patterns and the habits that you actually need to have a sustainable creative practice. I try to create every single day, whether that's for 20 minutes or two hours, what, you know, my days hold different amounts of time in different capacity and different seasons come and go. But once you kind of get into that rhythm and into that habit and into that practice, that momentum is really, really powerful. And so I just encourage moms to like look for the pockets of time, look for the slivers of time and find a way to harness your actual real life, you know, and access what is actually available to you. It's not wasted, even if it's small.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yes, yes. And that's really a great tip that you just said, like, even 20 minutes can change your whole disposition. You know, having that, the creativity. I know for me, like, sometimes, you know, that's all the time I have for as well. But like, for example, if I'm working on a quilt or something like that, just like doing a few things each day and coming back and like over time, you'll see that you're making progress and it doesn't have to be huge chunks.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Well, one of the things that you talk about is sort of the importance of finding a village or community. Tell us about what your tips are for listeners who are having a hard time finding their village.
Ashlee
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gosh, I'm so, I'm so passionate about this topic. I think, you know, and it's, it was really fun working on this book because with every chapter and every concept and every theme, I really tried to look at how that applied to both motherhood and creativity. And I think anyone who has children really knows the power of the village, right? When we are in need, when we are struggling, this idea of letting people in and letting people help us. I know I'm a person who really prides themselves on independence and doing things for myself. And it's been a real journey for me to lay down that pride at the door and let people into my life. But my motherhood is so much better for that and my creativity is so much better for that.
My main tip, and I know some people just don't like to hear it, so I'm going to just put a disclaimer on that right away. But my number one tip for finding a village or creating a village is just this idea of going first. Someone has to make the first move. Someone has to put themselves out there. I know it's scary. It's scary to initiate a friendship. It's scary to throw out an invitation and know that you might get rejected.
Villages don't create themselves, you know, and creative groups don't create themselves. Masterminds don't create themselves. You know, whatever thing you're hunting for, play groups don't create themselves. Like, whatever thing you're searching for in your life, if you want a community around it, somebody is going to have to start the thing. And my biggest encouragement is you could be that person, you know? I think so many of us, we sit around for so long waiting to be invited. We're just waiting for someone to start something. We're waiting to get a text. We're waiting to get a phone call. And I just love to encourage women, like, don't sit around waiting. It's actually so much easier to invite than to wait to be invited. And I know it takes courage and I know it's scary, but the more you do it, the less scary it is. So I tend to be that person different things I've been part of, different things, different groups I'm in. I have started almost all of them because I'm just perpetually the girl that goes first. And it doesn't always pan out. I've invited people to things and they have said, no, thank you. And you just move on. Your people will find you, but somebody has to go first.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yes. That's so true. And it's amazing how God can work through, you know, when you say yes, and being willing to do that. I know, you know, I have an example of that in my own life, just there was about 10 years when I stayed home with my children. And then I went back to work. And I had been part of this mom's groups in the morning. And I thought, well, now that I'm going back to work, I still want to be in this Bible study mom's group, but there's nothing at night." And I was like, well, maybe somebody else out there might want to do it at night. And you know, the first year we had like four of us, then the next year we had eight of us. And then, you know, it just kept growing and growing because I think people would be surprised just at how much, you know, if you're feeling that way, there's probably someone else too, right?
Ashlee
Totally, yes.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yeah. Well, tell us about your online community, Coffee and Crumbs.
Ashlee
Yeah, I would love to. So, Coffee and Crumbs is an online space I started over nine years ago, which is crazy to say that out loud because on the one hand, it doesn't feel like it's been that long. And on the other hand, it feels like it's been longer than that. So, I've been running this space for about nine years. And you know, my initial heart behind this project was at the time when I was a new mom, I've always been a writer. I've always loved to write. I had a personal blog for a number of years before I became a mother. And I started really kind of looking around the internet when I was a new mom, looking for places where I could submit my writing or even just places where I could read about motherhood. And back when I first became a mom the two options out there were Huffington Post Parents and Scary Mommy. And that was it. Those were the two places that you could write about parenting or you could read about parenting and no shade to those spaces. But it wasn't exactly the type of writing that I wanted to do. And it wasn't really the type of reading that I was looking for in the motherhood space. And so I started Coffee and Crumbs as it was going to be a passion project, something I did during nap time, something I did in the margins, I wanted to create just a really beautiful space online where mothers could write honest, raw, gritty, vulnerable essays about motherhood where we didn't sugarcoat things but we also didn't just complain a lot. I wanted something real and I wanted something honest and that was kind of the original heartbeat behind the space. And I would say today, that's exactly how I would still describe it. You know, we're a group of mothers who write together every month. And we, you know, our space has evolved over time, just in terms of the aesthetic or in terms of kind of how we release our stories out to the world. We've kind of been slowing down in recent years where we're actually, we're producing less work than we used to, but I think we're really just kind of leaning into this quality over quantity mindset. You know, they're so much content out there. I feel like every day mothers open up their phones and they're drinking through a fire hose. And so our heart and our mission just at Coffee and Crumbs is that, you know, mothers would feel safe, known, encouraged and loved through our art and through our work. And I've really enjoyed the process of actually slowing down how often we produce stories. We're giving ourselves a lot more time to work on our craft. We all take writing very seriously and It's a really special place. The women who read our work are so gracious, have been so gracious with us as writers. We've shared some really personal things about our lives and about loss and grief and hard things. And we have only really been met with grace time and time again. And I think that's honestly part of the reason we're still here and part of the reason we're still going is because we love the work so much. We value it. We believe in it. And also, we have the kindest community on the internet to support us in that. So it's been such a joy. It's truly, I say this all the time, but it really is, it's a dream job for me.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Oh, it sounds like such a beautiful community. I know your website is so beautiful as well. You know, I think one of the things that kind of holds people back and you touched on it briefly was this idea that when we do art that it has to be perfect and perfectionism. And I know so many people struggle with that. I've had issues with that myself as well. But as a creator, how do you navigate this anxiety of perfection so that you can enjoy the experience?
Ashlee
Yeah, gosh, that's such a hard question because it's something I still struggle with. You know, there were so many things that I wrote about in “Create Anyway,” where it was really obvious that like, I'm not at the finish line with this thing, you know, I'm still in the middle of it. And I would definitely put perfectionism in that category of, I still really struggle with this. I am kind of a perfectionist by nature. I'm just very type A. I'm first-born child just have really high of my work and again, I keep using that word reframe, but this is a reframe that has helped me with perfectionism and it's kind of just shifting my mindset from, you know, my work has to be perfect to what does it look like to be obedient in this work? And I'd write about this in the book a little bit about this term that I read about in a book. This term called radical obedience, which is basically the act of pursuing obedience and like basically throwing your all into it. And I think that's like a really healthy place to land when it comes to our creative work, right? We don't want to be, well, I'll speak for myself. I don't want to be lazy or just kind of give things half the effort. I do, I really do like to work hard. And I think that especially when we're creating art in the world that reflects God's beauty. Like we want it to be good. We want it to be beautiful. We don't want to phone it in. And so, I continually come back to this idea of what does it look like to be obedient to the work God has called me to and to just give it my all, knowing that it's not going to be perfect. It's never going to be perfect. Nothing here on earth is ever perfect, but I can still try my best under the umbrella of obedience. And that's like the sweet spot that I believe God has called us to with our art.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yeah, yeah, that sounds like a really good balance. Ashlee, in one of the last chapters of the book, you talk about rest. And, you know, as you said, actually, in the beginning of the book, it's like, this is a struggle that we have is like, we want to be creative, we want to be attentive to our families or work or all these different things. But tell us about, you know, ways that you personally find rest and still are able to create and do all the things you need to do.
Ashlee
I love that you're hitting on all the things that I'm still actively working on. It's really good. Um, you know, rest is something that I historically have struggled with a lot. I tend to lean more. I'm driven. I am a accomplishment. I'm like a seeker of accomplishments. I'm very, I'm a very, very hard worker on the spectrum of people who are good at rest and total workaholics, like I lean workaholic every time. And so, yeah, this has been really a huge area, really just in my heart that I feel like the Lord has been kind of working out in me and really reminding me often how rest is an act of faith. It's an act of faith to believe that you can set down your work.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yes, me too.
Ashlee
and it will be okay, you know? And I think so much of it comes down to control, it comes down to, you know, my desire to squeeze productivity out of every second of every day and how when I'm doing that, it's really like I'm just trying to be, you know, the master of my own universe and I'm not letting God be the master of the universe. And so, I have felt so convicted in this area in a million different ways. And the way that I've really seen it bless the fruit of my creative efforts is again, kind of going back to that scarcity mindset I talked about earlier. I think there was such a long period of time where I just assumed, well, if I stop working for any length of time, everything will suffer, right? Like everything will be worse.
The work is not going to get done. The deadlines are not going to be met and everything will be terrible and everything will fall apart because I'm the master of the universe and I'm the glue that's holding everything together. And if I stop moving for one second, everything is going to fall to pieces. And the Lord has convicted me in that over and over and over and over again, just reminding me that he is sovereign over all things. And rest is actually a gift to us from him. After God created, he rested, and he's asked us to do the same. When I'm refusing that gift, what ends up happening is everything does suffer because then I go straight into burnout, and then I'm exhausted, and then I'm not showing up to my work energized or even showing up at all. I get to this point where it feels like I can't even do anything because I've been running the rat race for so long without a break. And when I actually am taking the time to practice Sabbath, to take a sabbatical, to just put my feet up for 20 minutes in the backyard and read a book, that is refueling me in really necessary ways. It's giving me a chance to catch my breath. It's letting my mind rest. And the benefit that overflows out of that is so palpable. It's where I once thought everything will suffer if I stop moving for a second. Now I'm realizing like everything will suffer if I don't, you know, if I don't take a rest, if I don't take a break. And so yeah, that's kind of, that's a little bit of my journey with rest. It's still evolving. Still a work in progress.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
You know, I have found the same thing really that you have this past summer, my other daughter Taylor and I, we did this, we called it the Sabbath reset group. And it was a group of about eight of us who really were intentionally trying to put this into practice where, you know, okay, I'm not going to do any Coffee and Bible Time on Sunday. Like I'm going to, you know, stop and start even try to plan ahead, like some other things that will make Sunday less about things I have to do, more about things, you know, taking the time to worship God and then, but also have the time to do things creatively that we enjoy. And it has breathed so much life. And it really has, it's given the zeal to start up on Monday so much greater.
So I really, really concur with you on that. Well, Ashlee, as we kind of wrap things up, what is your hope for people who read this book and how can they connect with you?
Ashlee
Hmm. Let's see. My hope for women who read this book is that they would feel nudged forward in whatever creative work God has called them to steward at this time. That's my hope and my prayer that they would just feel encouraged, that they would feel seen, and that they would feel just a little, a little poke forward in some capacity. And let's see, what else did you ask me? You had two questions. I already forgot the second one. Oh, thank you, thank you. Yeah, let's see, I am online sporadically these days, but my website is Ashleegadd.com and I'm mostly writing at Substack consistently in this season. So you can find me over at Substack and that's kind of the best way to connect with me right now.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Okay, we will definitely put those links in our show notes. Before we go, Ash, I want to ask you some of our favorite Bible study tool questions. So what Bible is your go-to Bible and what translation is it?
Ashlee
Okay, so I have I don't even know if this is what it's called It's a really pretty leather Bible and I think it's called a journaling Bible because there's space on every page to write in the margins and it's the ESV translation.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Awesome. Okay. How about any favorite journaling supplies or anything that you like to use to enhance your Bible study experience?
Ashlee
Yes, I actually took out this pen so I could tell you exactly what it's called. Somebody sent these to me. They're called the Zebra Mildliners, and they're these really great highlighters that don't bleed through even like a super, super thin page. And I've really been, I've been enjoying that both with my books and my Bible.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Excellent. Okay, yeah, those are good ones. All right. Lastly, what's your favorite app or website for Bible study tools?
Ashlee
So I'm going to give you two, if that's okay. The first one is, I really love the Bible Recap. I've been working through the actual book. I believe they have a website too with a lot of resources, but I've really, really enjoyed the Bible Recap over the last couple of years. And then the other one that I really love is Dwell Differently. I don't know, are you familiar with that brand? They do little, they make these really cool temporary tattoos that help you memorize Scripture and they have a little subscription box and they're really pretty and I just really love all the things that those ladies are doing over there. So that's called Dwell Differently.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Okay, I definitely have to check them out. That's so awesome. Well, Ashlee, thank you so much for being here today to share your book with us and just remind us of the importance of creativity that, you know, God has instilled that creativity in us for his purpose and just how he very much desires us to pursue creativity every chance that we get. So thank you so much.
Ashlee
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Ellen (Mentor Mama)
Yes, a delight. And for our listeners, be sure to get a copy of Ashlee's book, “Create Anyway.” We will provide the link in our show notes. Thank you for joining us on the Coffee and Bible Time podcast.