Is God Real? Evaluating the Evidence for Life's Biggest Question w/ Lee Strobel

Embark on an enlightening quest with Lee Strobel, renowned investigative journalist, and former skeptic turned devout Christian, as he lays out a compelling case for the existence of God and the reality of Jesus's resurrection. In an era where life's biggest questions often lead to more confusion than clarity, Lee's analytical approach cuts through the noise, presenting an investigative perspective that has deeply resonated with my faith journey. Our conversation dives into the toughest challenges faced by believers, from the mystery of God's hiddenness to the ever-present reality of human suffering, all while drawing from Lee's transformative experiences and celebrated works such as "Is God Real?" and "The Case for Christ."

The intricacies of faith and doubt are unraveled, not through blind acceptance but through rigorous research and candid dialogues with prominent atheists and skeptics. As we explore the surge in spiritual curiosity among today's youth, set against a backdrop of increasing mental health struggles, Lee Strobel's insights reveal a growing trend of conversions to Christianity. His encounters with figures like Anthony Flew and Charles Templeton serve to fortify his convictions, offering listeners a testament to the power of an unwavering belief borne from critical examination and expert testimony.

The discussion extends to the profound philosophical questions surrounding God's role in human suffering, providing solace and understanding through personal stories and theological perspectives. As we consider the delicate balance God maintains in revealing himself, we equip our listeners with the intellectual and spiritual tools needed to both defend their faith and invite others into these profound truths.

Book: Is God Real?
Website: www.leestrobel.com
Bible: NET Translation
Yellow Legal Pads
App/Website: Bible Gateway

Transcript

Lee Strobel: 0:00

We talk about philosophical arguments and, again, in everyday ways we can all understand through the existence of God. I talk about history. How do we know that Jesus really lived and how do we know we returned from the dead and thus proved he's the Son of God? And I deal with these two big objections the hiddenness of God and the existence of suffering in our world.

Ellen Krause: 0:26

Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. For those that may be listening for the first time, our podcast is an offshoot from our main platform, youtube. Our channel is called Coffee and Bible Time, where our goal is to help people delight in God's word and thrive in Christian living. We also have a website and storefront with Bible studies, prayer journals, courses and more. Welcome to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast.

Ellen Krause: 0:54

If you're like me, I'm sure you've had moments of grappling with the profound question of God's existence. That wrestling creates this deep yearning inside of us for meaning. Are we mere accidents of nature or does a benevolent God shape our existence? To navigate this, we are encouraged to objectively evaluate the evidence. In life, crucial decisions are rarely black and white, and belief in God requires evaluating the evidence, testing objections and seeking clarity. In the end, there's often enough evidence to warrant taking a step of faith. Well, our guest today, lee Strobel, investigative journalist and author of the recent book Is God Real. We'll delve into the obstacles of the perceived hiddenness of God, as 52% of Americans grapple with religious doubt.

Ellen Krause: 1:57

Lee Strobel is a former award-winning legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times bestselling author whose books have sold millions of copies worldwide. Lee earned a journalism degree at the University of Missouri and was awarded a Ford Foundation Fellowship to study at Yale Law School, where he received a Masters of Studies in Law degree. He was a journalist for 14 years at the Chicago Tribune and other newspapers, winning Illinois top honors for investigative reporting and public service journalism from the United Press International. Lee also taught First Amendment Law at Roosevelt University. A former atheist, he served as a teaching pastor at three of America's largest churches. Today he's founding director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and applied apologetics at Colorado Christian University. Lee and his wife Leslie have been buried for more than 50 years and live in Texas. Their daughter Allison and son Kyle are also authors. Please welcome Lee.

Lee Strobel: 3:10

Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate that. I hope you enjoyed a nice intro and looking forward to chatting with you.

Ellen Krause: 3:16

Yes, thank you. It's such a joy to meet you and I have to tell you that, unknowingly, your written presence was part of my growing up years.

Lee Strobel: 3:28

Oh great.

Ellen Krause: 3:28

My mom was an avid reader of the Chicago Tribune.

Lee Strobel: 3:33

Oh, no kidding, that's awesome, yes.

Ellen Krause: 3:36

I mean, there were always pages of newspapers folded up every which way on every table in the house, so I know she enjoyed all of your editorial work there. And then I also want to let you know that your book, the Case for Christ it really just entered my world at a time where I needed all of those facts just to help solidify my faith. So I just want to thank you.

Lee Strobel: 4:07

That's so cool.

Ellen Krause: 4:08

That makes my day, you know from myself and I'm sure, many listeners out there who have had a similar experience.

Lee Strobel: 4:15

Well, I appreciate that. You know I was talking to someone the other day talking about Chicago and I say, you know, I'm a Chicago Cubs fan and I said in Wrigley Field sometimes the batter will hit a pop up and it'll be caught by the center fielder, but sometimes because of the windy city aspect of Chicago the wind you don't hit it any harder, but the wind takes it over the wall for a home run. And that's how I feel about the Case for Christ book. I feel like I hit the ball. I wrote the book but God has taken it so far beyond whatever I put into it and it's done things with it that I never could have anticipated or really take any credit for. It was really just an entire God project.

Ellen Krause: 4:56

It's amazing, and the movie too. I love the movie.

Lee Strobel: 5:00

They did a great job. I can say they did a great job because I didn't do it and so I'm not bragging, but I thought they did a terrific job on that film and, by the way, it's free on Amazon Prime, I believe, now, if people want to watch it.

Ellen Krause: 5:14

Excellent.

Lee Strobel: 5:15

Yeah, and you can find it online. It's called the Case for Christ.

Ellen Krause: 5:18

Great tip, ok, so I want to start out. Lee, in your investigative work, you've, I'm sure, interviewed countless people over the years, and in this new book, is God Real? You talk about interviewing people who have rejected belief in God, and I'm just curious to know, since you are so passionate about this topic and since the time you yourself became a believer, what kind of feelings go on inside of you when you're interviewing someone who has rejected God?

Lee Strobel: 5:55

Yeah, Through the years I've had the privilege of interviewing some of the most famous atheists in the world and skeptics, for instance, Anthony Flew, the most famous philosophical atheist in the 20th century I talked to him, Of course he later in life came to believe in God. Charles Templeton, the most famous skeptic in Canada, who also, by the way, came to faith on his deathbed, as I talk about in my new book. And Michael Schirmer, editor of Skeptic Magazine. Founder of Skeptic Magazine.

Lee Strobel: 6:28

So it's been fascinating to interview people who are far from God and reject the idea of faith in Jesus, and I never find that their objections challenge me as a journalist, as someone trained in law and journalism. Whenever somebody raises an issue that I don't get or seems new to me or whatever, I just get into research mode and just call up experts and read books and try to come to an answer. So nothing they've ever said has shaken my faith. There's some questions that have come up that have caused me to do further research and really further solidify my faith and made me more prepared to be able to talk to others about why I believe what I believe. But I enjoy talking to people from different faith perspectives. I was just corresponding with a Muslim online who was trying to convince me that the Quran is God's word, and so we got in quite a lively conversation there.

Lee Strobel: 7:29

AOK to have questions, it's OK to have doubts, as long as we pursue answers. As the Old Testament says in Jeremiah, as the New Testament says in Hebrews if we sincerely seek God, we'll find Him.

Ellen Krause: 7:43

Yes, yes, absolutely. That just seems so intimidating to me to take that on. But you raise just an excellent point that when you don't know you, you continue to research and dig deeper.

Lee Strobel: 7:59

Yeah, exactly, and there's about. You know, the listeners know there's about 20 lines of evidence and arguments that point toward the truth of Christianity and it'd be very difficult to negate all 20 lines of those evidence with a single objection. So you know, when somebody raises an issue that seems to be huh, what about that? You know, what do I do with that? I have to think through does that negate all of this other evidence? No, it raises a question. Let's research it and get to the root of it.

Ellen Krause: 8:34

Mm-hmm. Okay, well, in your recent book you mentioned that this came about differently than your previous books.

Lee Strobel: 8:44

How so Well, the publisher came to me you know I've done a bunch of books with Harper Collins, christian publishers, Zondervan and they came to me and they said, boy, our tech people have made a discovery. And I said what? And we've discovered that 200 times a second around the clock, someone on planet Earth is typing into a computer search engine. Basically, the question is God real? And I thought, oh my goodness, in light of that, how can I not write a book that really directly confronts that issue?

Lee Strobel: 9:16

And I especially wanted to give it a title that was kind of neutral, so that'd be an easy book to give away to someone in our life who is spiritually curious or skeptical. So I call it Is God Real?, exploring the ultimate question of life, which it certainly is. And so I incorporated some previous material from some of my previous books. I incorporate new material and so forth and really tried to build an affirmative case for the truth of Christianity from history, from science, from philosophy, and also deal with two of the biggest objections to faith, which is if God is real, why is there suffering? And if God is real, why does he seem so hidden?

Ellen Krause: 9:57

And both of those, as you mentioned in the book, are kind of the most common obstacles. People have right.

Lee Strobel: 10:05

Yeah, in fact I just got an email this morning from a woman I know in Georgia who had lost a daughter to cancer and she said that chapter on why does God allow suffering, which is an interview I did with the philosopher Peter Craft. She said it was the most powerful thing I'd ever read on that topic. Thank you, it really has helped me cope with this tragedy in my life and that really warmed my heart I get.

Lee Strobel: 10:34

The nice thing about the way I approach books is I don't have to be the expert. I seek out experts with doctorate degrees from Cambridge and Oxford and major universities and I asked them the tough questions I had as a skeptic and then other people asked me. And my role in the kingdom of God, I think, is to kind of be a conduit between the scholarly community and the everyday community, to try to help them through these interviews, put the cookies on the bottom shelf, in other words, explain these issues in a way that we can all understand. So I figure if I can understand it, anybody can understand it. So that's kind of the way I approach things.

Ellen Krause: 11:12

Yeah, you know, the younger generation now I think that you mentioned in the book are less likely to believe in God, but you also mentioned that there's more depression and anxiety. Yes, and that actually, which I love, when I was reading that, you mentioned that they actually are open. They are. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Lee Strobel: 11:39

Sure, one of my friends, Shane Pruitt. His ministry is to travel the country and to talk to teenagers and young people like high school students and college students about Jesus, and he told me that. He said, Lee, in the last three years I've seen more young people come to faith in Jesus Christ than the previous 18 years of ministry combined. That's incredible. And he said you know it used to be. If 10% of the kids receive Christ after a message like that, he said that would be awesome. Sometimes it's 40%. Wow, young people are hungry.

Lee Strobel: 12:14

They realize, you know it is true that twice as many young people call themselves atheists as members of my generation. But they're not really hardcore atheists, they're just confused. They're just spiritually kind of wandering and it's culturally popular to call yourself an atheist these days and so they call themselves an atheist. You know, when I was an atheist back in the 1970s and so forth, you didn't tell people that you were an atheist. I mean that was like saying, oh, I'm a pedophile. You know you never you wouldn't admit any of that because it was frowned upon by the culture. Now, especially on college campuses, it's considered a badge of honor and you know the culture there will pull you toward labeling yourself in that way. But I find that people, even though they may even call themselves an atheist, they're more open than we give them credit for.

Ellen Krause: 13:06

Yeah, absolutely, cause I feel like even in my own journey there's been times where there might be something that I really struggle with. For example, like you know, how can God make and love millions of people, the people that were all before us, that are here now, that will come after us? How can he love? But then, whenever I get into this mindset, also when I don't understand something, I go back to what I do understand, like how God has been present in my life. It's irrefutable. Yeah yeah, it's true.

Ellen Krause: 13:45

Well, some people believe that science contradicts Christianity, and your book describes scientific discoveries over the past half century. The point and the direction of the Creator. Tell us about those discoveries.

Lee Strobel: 14:02

Yeah, this is as you say. These are discoveries just over the last half century or so that have made it more rational, so to speak, to be a follower of Christ and a believer in God today than I believe any other time in history. And if I were an atheist still today, just the evidence from science would convince me that God exists. So I'll give you a couple of quick examples. One is the origin of the universe cosmology. You know, for centuries, scientists believed that the universe was eternal, it always existed. And Christianity, of course, contradicts that. It says no, no, no. There was a point in time when God created the universe and scientists would say no, no, no. That's the Bible, that's mythology.

Lee Strobel: 14:45

Science tells us the universe has always been here, it's static, it's always existed. Well, now we know, not just from persuasive philosophical arguments but from series of scientific discoveries concerning the expansion of the universe, that the universe began to exist at some point in the past. Well, that leads to a very powerful argument for the existence of God. It's simple, but it's powerful. Number one whatever begins to exist has a cause. Number two we now know that the universe began to exist. Therefore, the universe must have a cause behind it. Well, you ask yourself what kind of a cause can bring a universe into existence? Well, it must be transcendent or separate from creation. It must be spirit or immaterial, as it existed before the physical world existed. It must be timeless or eternal, because it existed before physical time was created. Must be powerful, given the immensity of the creation event. Must be smart, given the precision of the creation event. Must be personal, because you had to make the decision to create. Must be caring or loving, because he's so carefully crafted a habitat for us to flourish in. He must be creative, can find goodness. Just look at the universe and the Atom's razor, which is a scientific principle, would say there'd be just one creator. So what do we got? Transcendent spirit, eternal, powerful, smart, personal, loving, creative, unique. That is a description of the God of the Bible. And so I think just the evidence of cosmology if I were still an atheist, would convince me that there is a creator.

Lee Strobel: 16:26

And then you look at the fine tuning of the universe. The universe is finely tuned on a razor's edge so that life can exist in a way that defies the idea. Could be a chance or a coincidence. So there are about 50 to 100 parameters of the numbers that govern the operation of the universe, the laws and the constants of physics that have to be calibrated to an incomprehensible degree so that life can exist. I'll give you one example. The ratio between the electromagnetic force and the gravitational force has to be exactly right so that the universe can support life. How precise is it? It's calibrated to one part in 10,000 trillion trillion trillion.

Lee Strobel: 17:12

So to understand that number, imagine a billion continents the size of North America pile with dimes all the way to the moon and pick out one dime and spray paint it red and mix it among all those dimes and blindfold someone and let them lose and say you can only reach into this incredible pile of dimes one time and pick out one dime, what are the odds? It would be the dime that had previously painted, spray painted red. One chance in 10,000 trillion trillion trillion. So I asked one physicist. I said, in light of these unbelievably astronomical numbers, what do physicists have to say about the odds? It's just gonna happen by coincidence. And he looked at me and said well, we physicists have a term for that. I said what he said ain't gonna happen. So I mean, just those two parameters would be enough. First, I'm just talking personally to convince me, if I were an atheist, that God exists.

Ellen Krause: 19:04

That whole sort of intelligent design aspect, I think, really resonates with people, because all of those things that you mentioned, just one of them alone is incredible.

Lee Strobel: 19:18

It's mind boggling. It really is, it's mind blowing.

Ellen Krause: 19:23

Well, so let's say, we have someone in this position where they're like okay, I believe that there is a God. Okay, you've bought me in that far. How then do you get them to Jesus? You know, tell us about sort of the evidence that you have that speaks to Jesus.

Lee Strobel: 19:47

Well, we can shift gears from science and philosophy to history and we look at the resurrection of Jesus and ask ourselves these questions. Number one did Jesus claim to be the Son of God? Did he ever make that claim? Well, yeah, he clearly did. In John 10, verse 30, he got up before a group and he said I and the Father are one, and the Greek word there for one is not masculine, it's neuter, which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father are the same person. He was saying I and the Father are the same thing. We're one in nature, we're one in essence. And the audience understood what he was saying because they picked up stones to kill him. They said you, you're just a man, you're claiming to be God. So Jesus claimed to be God. But so what? I could claim to be God? Anybody can claim to be God. But if Jesus claimed to be God, died and then three days later rose from the dead, that's pretty good evidence. He's telling the truth, especially because God, if he does exist and I think the scientific evidence indicates he does he wouldn't resurrect someone who is lying, a heretic, someone who's lying about being his unique son. So the resurrection really is the key.

Lee Strobel: 20:54

And you look at history and I use four words that begin with the letter E to kind of summarize the evidence for the resurrection, because Easter begins with the E. So the first E stands for execution, that Jesus was truly dead after being crucified. And I found that there was no record anywhere, if anyone, ever, surviving a full Roman crucifixion. In fact, we not only have multiple accounts of the death of Jesus in the documents of the New Testament, we've got five ancient sources outside the Bible confirming the execution of Jesus, in fact no less of a source than the Journal of the American Medical Association, which is a secular, scientific, medical, peer-reviewed journal carrying an investigation into the death of Jesus. And this was their conclusion. They said, quote clearly the weight of the historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even before the wound to his side was inflicted. So the first E is Jesus was executed.

Lee Strobel: 21:51

Second E stands for the word early. We have early reports, in other words reports of his resurrection, that come so early, so quickly after his death. You can't write him off as a legend that developed over time. The great historian AN Sherwin-White said in that era, the passage of two generations of time was not even enough for legend to grow up and wipe out a solid core of historical truth. And yet we have a report of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, including named eyewitnesses and groups of eyewitnesses that has been dated back by scholars to within months of his death within months. That is a news flash from ancient history. Historians drool over this stuff. I mean that's far too quick to write it off as a legend.

Lee Strobel: 22:36

Third, e is empty. We have an empty tomb and we could talk all day about all the evidence that the tomb was empty. But I think the strongest evidence is the fact that even the enemies of Jesus admitted the tomb was empty. How do we know? As we know from sources inside and outside the New Testament. Then, when the disciples began proclaiming that Jesus had risen, what the opponent said was oh well, the disciples stole the body. Well, think about that. That's a cover story. They're admitting the tomb is empty. They're just trying to explain how it got empty. You know it's like if you're a teacher and a student comes up to you and says the dog ate my homework. That student's admitting look, I don't have my homework, but I can explain what happened to it. The dog ate it. It's the same thing. So everybody in the first century, whether they were followers of Jesus or enemies of Jesus, everybody was admitting that the tomb was empty. The idea that the disciples stole the body is ridiculous. Nobody believed it then, nobody believed it now. They didn't have the motive, they didn't have the means and they didn't have the opportunity.

Lee Strobel: 23:33

And then, finally, the fourth E stands for the word eyewitnesses. You know most of the facts from about ancient history that we accept as being true. When you look into them, they're really only based on one or two sources of information. And yet for the conviction of the disciples that they encountered the resurrected Jesus, we have no fewer than nine ancient sources inside and outside the New Testament confirming and corroborating the conviction of the disciples that they encountered the risen Christ. That is an avalanche of historical data. So I believe that the resurrection of Jesus that's what ultimately brought me to faith was the conclusion from the resurrection that Jesus did claim to be the Son of God. He backed up that claim by returning from the dead and for me that was sufficient to bring me to faith in Christ.

Ellen Krause: 24:25

I remember reading The Case for Christ and that was very powerful to have that evidence, as you say, from so many different sources. Yeah Well, some people where they have, maybe they sort of know or hear all of these facts, but it's actually like some type of a profound experience with God that leads them to faith. Tell us how you talk about that a little bit.

Lee Strobel: 24:59

Yeah, I mean, some people have a supernatural experience with God that can't be explained other than this is something coming from Him. I did a scientific study and I asked a cross section of Americans have you ever had an experience, at least one experience in your life, that you can only explain as coming from God, like a miracle in your life? 38% of American adults said yes. And if you say, well, 99% of them are wrong. 99% think it was a supernatural experience, but they were mistaken. If you throw out 99%, that's still a million miracles, a million encounters just in North America. So and I talk about this in my book I have an interview with a professor of philosophy, D dr. Douglas Groothuis, who's written about this topic, and my favorite example of this of all people was Evel Knievel. You know, Evel Knievel was the daredevil motorcycle rider who is in again his book of world records for having the most broken bones of every person, and he lived a very immoral life. I mean he was a drunk, he was a womanizer, he was a gambler. I mean he lived that course life. But he's standing on the beach in Florida and he said God spoke to me. He said not through my ears, but I felt it on my inside and I asked him what did it say? And he said I said Robert, which is his real name? Robert, I've saved you more times, you'll never know. Now you need to come to me through my son, Jesus. And he said it didn't come from me, because I don't know who Jesus is, who is Jesus. I had no idea. So he called the only Christian he knew, Frank Gifford, who was a well-known sportscaster, Kathy Lee Giffords' husband. And he said, Frank, I know, you're a Christian, I've had this experience of God. Who's Jesus? And he said well, get that book, the Case for Christ. By least that'll kind of explain it. So Evel read my book and he had a radical conversion to Christ, powerful conversion to Christ, maybe the biggest 180 degree turn I've ever seen in a human being. When he got up and was baptized on national television in front of a congregation and told his story and implored people to receive Christ and be transformed like he was, 700 people came forward. It was just. It was like Pentecost. And then, when he died a year or two later, on his tombstone to his at his request, it just says Robert Evel Knievel believer in Jesus Christ. And we became good friends before he died. In fact, the way I met him, we told me this story. I met my office one day and the phone rings and I pick it up and I say hi. And the voice says is this Lee Strobel? I said yeah, and the voice said this is Evel. And I thought Satan has gotten my phone number. Is that even? Can he do that? Is that even? Oh no, it's Evel Knievel. Oh okay. So we became good friends. I'll tell you what it's interesting in our friendship.

Lee Strobel: 28:12

The biggest lament that he had was that he didn't come to faith as a youngster. He said I wasted my life, I couldn't live for Jesus. If I'd only come to faith as a teenager, everything could have been different, and that haunted him till his final days. I told him, I said yeah, but you're gonna reach people that you wouldn't probably reach if you had become a Christian as a kid. And he did reach hundreds and hundreds of people with the Gospel. But I mean, it's just something to remind people that those of us, well, I wasn't a kid when I came to faith. I was in my 30s, so I can relate to what he said. But people who have come to faith as a child, like my two children and my grandchildren, coming to faith. What a blessing that is to be able to receive price at a young age and live your whole life following him. I mean that is a blessing.

Ellen Krause: 29:08

Yes, yes, yeah, I'm kind of in that similar boat too, Just with my two daughters. We do this ministry together Coffee and Bible Time and, like you, I was in my 30s when I really came to accept Christ and it's been such a joy to see them live it out from a young age.

Lee Strobel: 29:28

It's amazing.

Ellen Krause: 29:30

Well, Lee, one of the questions. Like people can know all of this stuff, but it seems like they almost just set it aside when it comes down to the issue of if God is real, why is there suffering in the world?

Lee Strobel: 29:46

Yeah.

Ellen Krause: 29:47

So how do we help people in that?

Lee Strobel: 29:52

Well, keep in mind that every worldview needs to wrestle with this, not just Christianity. Atheism needs to wrestle with it. Islam, buddhism every religion needs to deal with this issue. Number two remember there are 20 lines of evidence and arguments that point toward the truth of Christianity. That doesn't negate them, but it is a legitimate issue. And my wife has a neuromuscular condition where she's been in pain every day for 20 years and she'll be in pain every day for the rest of her life unless God intervenes with a miracle, which he hasn't done. So this is a personal issue and probably for a lot of your audience it's a personal issue.

Lee Strobel: 30:32

So I interviewed for this topic a brilliant philosopher, Dr. Peter Kreeft, of Boston University. You know it was from Boston College, I always get the two mixed up, but he's brilliant and, as I mentioned earlier, I just got a note from a woman who read that chapter and had lost their daughter and how powerful this chapter was in her life. So it's very difficult when somebody asks this question because you don't want to give a 25-cent answer to a million dollar question. And so in the chapter I don't know how many pages we devote to this, probably 30 pages or so. I mean we give an in-depth answer. I'll give kind of the quick philosophical answer, and that is that God has existed from eternity past. So it's God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, in a perfect love relationship. And so love is the greatest value in the universe. And so when God decided to create humankind, he wanted us to have the ability to love. So the only way to love him and to love each other, but the only way he could give us that ability to love, is if he gave us free will. Why? Because love always involves a choice. You know, when my daughter was little this is dating us, but years ago there used to be a doll called Chattie Cathy and I gave her one for Christmas one year when she was little, and it had a string on the back and you pull the string and let go and the doll would talk to you. It was kind of primitive technologies, but so she pulled the string and let go and the doll would say I love you. That's about as good as it was back then. But did that doll love her? No, of course not. It was a machine. It was programmed to say that it had no choice. It had to say that real love always involves a choice.

Lee Strobel: 32:17

And so what have we done with our freedom of choice? Well, we've walked away from God, we've denied him, we've broken his laws, we haven't lived as he's told us to live. We've hurt each other, we've been stingy and selfish and we've started wars and all kinds of things have happened as a result. In other words, I could take my hand and I could, in my free will, feed a hungry person, or I could take that same hand and, in my free will, I could pick up a gun and kill an innocent person. But if I pick up a gun and kill an innocent person, it's a little disingenuous to say to God why do you allow suffering in the world? We're behind it, we've opened the door to it, and the Bible says this has encrusted the entire planet, it has introduced disease, it has introduced all kinds of problems in the universe, to the degree to which creation is groaning for redemption but God sent an answer to us, which is Jesus Christ.

Lee Strobel: 33:22

Jesus was honest. It's interesting. You study Eastern religions. They'll tell you oh, no, no, no, no, no. Suffering, that's maya. That means it's an illusion, that's just phallony. My wife's suffering every day for 20 years is not an illusion. It's very, very real. And so Jesus is honest.

Lee Strobel: 33:39

Jesus got up at one point and he said in this world you will have suffering. Why? Because we live in a sin-stained world. But he said take courage, because I have overcome the world. So in other words, he threw his resurrection from the dead. He's paid for the sins that we confess to him and we've admitted. And so here's the thing God took the worst thing that could ever happen in the history of the universe, the worst thing, the death of the Son of God on a cross and out of that he has produced the best thing that's ever happened in the universe, which is the opening of heaven to all who follow him. So if God can take the worst thing in the universe and turn it into the best thing in the universe, he can even take our sufferings, as he promises in Romans 8:28. If we follow him, he will cause good to emerge in this world of the next from the sufferings that we experience.

Lee Strobel: 34:36

And I think most of us, if we're honest, can look back in our life and see that that's true. I think of my friend Joni Eareckson Tada, who was paralyzed in a diving accident as a teenager. She's been in a wheelchair, as a quadriplegic, for over 50 years. And she said to me once said, lee, I would rather be in this wheelchair knowing God than walking around not knowing Him, because God used that terrible experience to bring Him into a profound relationship with Him. And her ministry has touched and changed the lives and eternities of thousands and thousands of people. God has caused good to emerge even from that terrible tragedy.

Lee Strobel: 35:16

So you know, this is a legitimate question. I urge people, if this is an issue in their life, the interview with Dr Kreeft in the book. I think you'll find encouragement. It's logical, it's rational, but it's also it's personal, it's soothing, it's, you know, because I think a lot of people who suffer don't necessarily need a 30 page chapter to explain why suffering is logical and rational. They need someone to be Jesus to them. They need someone to sit down next to them, put their arm around them and cry with them and bring them the hope and the courage that can come from a relationship with God. That's really what we need and Jesus offers that to each of us.

Ellen Krause: 36:06

Yes, it's that hope that keeps us going, for sure, when people are suffering like that. Well, I'd like to just run one other thing by you, as people often have an objection to God because they feel like he's hidden or you know. You talk about those examples where God has, like, spoken to someone, maybe not audibly, but they felt it there might be, you know, hundreds of people out there listening who are like, well, that's never happened to me.

Lee Strobel: 36:43

Like where is?

Ellen Krause: 36:44

this God, and how do I believe in a God I can't see or feel, or yeah, yeah, this hiddenness issue is really taken center stage in recent years.

Lee Strobel: 36:59

Part of the reason is there was a guy named Jon Steingard who was a musician, a Christian, in a Christian band called Hawk Nelson. He was the lead singer, son of a pastor, and he walked away from his faith a couple of years ago, several years ago, and posted about it on Instagram. He said I can't believe in a God who was so hidden. Why doesn't he make himself more apparent to us if everything hangs on our relationship with them? And it's a legitimate question and a philosophical objection that some philosophers have pushed in recent years. So in my book I have an interview with an expert on this topic and does a great job. Now, the guy interviewed used to have aspirations to be a professional catcher in baseball. So he uses the analogy of a catcher and a pitcher and he says you know, imagine, God's kind of the pitcher and we're kind of the catcher. Who's where does the fault lie in this so-called hiddenness of God? And he said I'm not sure it really lies with the pitcher God, I think it lies with us. It's a catcher. I said why? He said well, you know, you look at, in the Bible, romans one.

Lee Strobel: 38:11

Verse 20, says we have evidence just from looking at creation that's so clear that God exists. In fact it's so clear. We're without excuse. It says and yet what do we do with that? Romans says we suppress that knowledge, and the Greek imagery used there in Romans is of a pedal. So as our awareness that, oh, there is a God, look at creation as that rises up in us, we push it down like a pedal. We suppress it. Why? Because we want to be God. We don't want a God to be telling us what to do. We want to be the gods of our own lives, and so we suppress it. And then later, when the evidence begins to rise up again, we suppress it again like a pedal. And we keep doing that. And that's the biblical teaching and that's my experience in our world that people will deny the existence of God Because, frankly, they want to be the God of their own life. So I think that's an interesting perspective, sure is.

Lee Strobel: 39:13

If God is who he claimed to be and again we have 20 lines of evidence that point toward God being real and Christianity being true he is omniscient and, having omniscience, he would know the exact amount that he should make his appearance available or readily apparent to people, because he kind of walks a fine line. The fine line is he needs to make himself obvious enough so that those who sincerely want to meet him will meet him, but he needs to make himself hidden sufficiently for those who don't want to meet him. This preserves our free will, so he's not going to force himself on us, and so he kind of walks his fine line. Now there have been times in history where he has made his existence incredibly obvious, and I'm thinking of, for instance, the times that the Israelites went through the desert, and I'm thinking of when he parted the Red Sea.

Lee Strobel: 40:13

Well, what happened as a result? Did ancient Israel flock to him and commit? No, they fell into apostasy again. So what makes us think that today we do anything different? If God all of a sudden wrote in the sky hey guys, I'm here and I'm God, how many people would say, eh, that's an optical illusion. Eh, some church did that, probably with some sky writing airplane, our tendency would be to deny it and probably fall back into disbelief. So there's a lot to this question and I interviewed a scholar in the book who I think gives really really good answers to think about along these lines. But I think it is not an impediment or a sticking point that should keep us from God and our spiritual journeys.

Ellen Krause: 41:10

No, yeah, this really reminds me, Lee, of this chapter that we're going through, I should say the book of Daniel at our church, and just Nebuchadnezzar. I mean, he had some these encounters that were clearly, but yet he reverted. So just exactly what you're talking about we can get these over and over.

Lee Strobel: 41:35

It's like yes we are those hard headed ones.

Ellen Krause: 41:40

Well, Lee, as we start to kind of wrap things up here, I love that your books are so good at giving to someone who you know is an believer that maybe they'll do exactly what you're saying investigate, Tell us about what you include in the book that can help people do that.

Lee Strobel: 42:05

Yeah, I have three chapters on the evidence of science that points forward God's existence. We talked about cosmology and physics, the fine tuning of the university, origin of the universe. I should talk about the information in DNA, which is so profound that an information always has an intelligent source behind it. I talk about philosophical arguments and again in everyday ways, that we can all understand through the existence of God. I talk about history how do we know that Jesus really lived and how do we know we returned from the dead and thus proved he's the son of God? And I deal with these two big objections the hiddenness of God and the existence of suffering in our world.

Lee Strobel: 42:43

And in the end I think it's a book, especially because the title is neutral. You know, my book The Case for Christ kind of has an in your face title. Here's the case for Christ, oh okay. But this book, Is G od Real, exploring the ultimate question of life, and that's more neutral. And I've had so many people give it away this last Christmas or for birthdays and so forth to people in their life who are spiritually curious. So my hope, as a person who wants to drag as many people to heaven with him as I can, is that people would get the book, read the book. It'll encourage them in their own faith. It will equip them to be able to defend the faith and to give reasons why they believe it's true.

Lee Strobel: 43:27

But then, after you're done with the book, give it away. You know, give it away and say, hey, I was just listening to this guy. I was listening to a podcast and there was this guy in there and he was a you know godly. He went to Yale Law School. He studied evidence. He was an atheist and spent two years of his life investigating and ended up becoming a Christian. Would you be interested in the kind of evidence that he found persuasive? And then just give him the book? You know, keep it going, keep it, get it out there. And you know, as I say, if you can't afford the book it's free at any local library get it at the library. But my hope is that God will use it to strengthen the faith of believers, cause them to confirm their beliefs and cause doubters to doubt their doubts.

Ellen Krause: 44:09

Excellent. So if you're listening to this, I strongly encourage you to pick it up, like you said, first for yourself and then pass it along. Lee, tell us about your Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics.

Lee Strobel: 44:25

Yeah, I got together 40 PhDs in evangelism and apologetics which is evidence for the faith scientists, historians, philosophers and we created 91 courses, fully online, fully accredited. You get a bachelor's degree or a master's degree in evangelism or apologetics through Colorado Christian University. Or we have certificate courses, which are for people that don't want a degree but they'd love to take a course on science and faith or on the resurrection or on Islam or 36 other topics, and they're, again, very inexpensive. They're all online. You take them at your own pace and if you take five of them, you get a certificate affirming that you've kind of completed that course of study. So all that information is available at strobelcentercom. All one word. And we've already graduated some of our first master's degree students and they're out making a difference for Christ.

Ellen Krause: 45:22

That's so, so exciting. Okay, I am going to be sure and check that out. And how about, lee, if people want to learn more specifically about you?

Lee Strobel: 45:33

Yeah, lee strobel. com is my website. Go there and there's a link to this book. You can read it for each chapter, get a sense of it, see if you like it, and links to obtaining it as well.

Ellen Krause: 45:47

Fantastic. Okay, before we go, I have to ask you some of our favorite Bible study tool questions. What Bible is your go-to Bible and what translation is it you?

Lee Strobel: 45:59

know I use a variety of translations. My publisher is the publisher of the NIV translation, so I use that a lot. But one of my favorite Bibles a lot of people don't know about it, so I want to mention it. I've got it right here. It's the NET Bible. The NET Bible Daniel B Wallace, the great New Testament scholar from Dallas Seminary, sort of oversaw this production of this new Bible and what I love about it. It has 61,000 footnotes and notes of scholars who explained.

Lee Strobel: 46:34

This is why we're translating it this way. So it's just fabulous. I pick it up to a random page here. You probably can't see it. Maybe you can. The page is primarily footnotes. I mean, there's the text, but there's more footnotes on the page than text. And so, for instance, I was talking earlier about John 10, verse 30, where Jesus said I and the Father are one, and I pointed out that the Greek word for one is not masculine, it's neuter, which means Jesus wasn't saying I and the Father the same person, but we're the same thing, we're one in essence. Well, that is explained in one of the notes of this great Bible, so I mention it because most people have never heard of the NET Bible. I haven't.

Lee Strobel: 47:21

Yeah, and it's online, it's fully online. I think it's free online, if I'm not mistaken. And but I actually, dan Wallace, gave me a copy of the Leatherbound, which I recommend because the footnotes are. I don't know if they're in the online version or not. I hope they are, but golly, it is a great, great, great research tool.

Ellen Krause: 47:44

Excellent. Okay, I love that. A new tip here Do you have any favorite journaling supplies or anything that you like to use to enhance your Bible study time?

Lee Strobel: 47:54

Oh golly, I like to use because of my journalism background and legal background. I use yellow legal pads to journal and to keep track of what God's doing in my life, and so forth, and so nothing fancy hey it works. Yeah, it just works for me Okay.

Ellen Krause: 48:16

Excellent, but last question what is your favorite app or website for Bible study tools?

Lee Strobel: 48:23

Well, you know it's funny, I'm a book guy because of my background and because I'm old I'm 72 years old so I tend to rely on the printed page. So my bookshelf which you can't see because it's over there is full of commentaries and books on research. So I like physical books. But you know what? One of the most basic websites and it has a lot of features and it's very easy to use is Bible Gateway. It's actually run by my publisher. It's on of it, so it's BibleGateway. com, and one of the things I like about it is I have a free newsletter there. So, yeah, there's all kinds of newsletters, they're all free and so you can click on that and you can go to.

Lee Strobel: 49:09

Mine is called Investigating Faith and every week or so I do a little article about some aspect of the evidence for the faith and it goes out free to anybody who signs up for it. So that's why I kind of like those guys. But it's great because they have a proliferation of translations that you can easily cross check and so far, I think the net Bible is one of them. If I'm stating I tend to use the physical version, but I think the net Bible is one of them and this you can compare and contrast and so forth, you can search, word search and so forth. So I just find it's kind of a basic site, but I just I use it probably 10 times a day.

Ellen Krause: 49:50

Wow, Okay that. I've been on that website many times but did not know about the newsletters, so yeah, that's just one of dozens of them and I say they're all free.

Lee Strobel: 50:01

So awesome.

Ellen Krause: 50:02

Okay Well, Lee, it's just been such a joy to have you here today. Thank you so much for just taking the time to help our audience, you know, to evaluate, to teach them to weigh the evidence and help discern if God is real.

Lee Strobel: 50:21

So I appreciate that. Thanks so much for having me. Let's see you and all your viewers.

Ellen Krause: 50:25

Thank you so much. All right, well, we appreciate you listening here at the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. Have a blessed day.