A Financial Review for a Beloved Sitcom Couple

Ever wonder what goes down when you start working with a wealth management firm? Our financial gurus — Adam Cox, Kyle Cipperley, and Joe Dylla — walk you through the prospect review process and share their financial recommendations for an iconic sitcom couple: Jim and Pam Halpert from “The Office.”

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Transcript

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- A prospect review on a podcast? Why not?[rhythmic music] Welcome to "Common Cents on the Prairie," a podcast dedicated to helping you demystify the sometimes complex topic of money. I'm Adam Cox, head of Wealth Management for The First National Bank in Sioux Falls. We're a community bank based out of South Dakota. In this podcast, we share expert insights from around the country and stories from our local community to arm you with the tools you need to make better financial decisions. Because the truth is, the more we talk about this stuff, the better off we're all going to be.[rhythmic music] Today I'm joined by two of my colleagues, Joe Dylla and Kyle Cipperley. Joe's our in-house counsel, and Kyle leads our investments team. Joe and Kyle have both been on the show before, and I'm thrilled to have them back. In today's episode, we're going to try something new. We're going to give you a little peek behind the curtain as we walk through an actual prospect review, mostly actual. I do want to note that we did change a few strategic details in order to protect the innocent. If you're a fan of "The Office," you'll likely pick up on some of those changes. I'll also note that if you normally listen to our show, this is an episode that might be worth watching so you get the full audio and visual experience. We have slides. This episode can be found on the Bank's website or on YouTube. So, why are we doing this episode? Well, for a couple of reasons, actually. First, I just think it's interesting to see how a firm like ours reviews a prospect's financial situation as we go through the onboarding process. You'll get a chance to see the types of things that we look at and the recommendations that we make. Second, as we walk through our review, you may come away with one or two things you can apply to your own personal finances, which is a win. Finally, as you listen to our recommendations, please keep in mind that our firm follows a fiduciary standard. What this means for our prospects and our clients is that we are legally obligated to put their interests before our own. As such, our advice will not be biased towards selling any products or pushing any high-cost solutions. We literally have nothing to gain from doing so. With that, I hope you enjoy this episode. Gentlemen, welcome back to the show, good to have you.- Good's a word for it.[Adam laughs]- Thanks.- Yeah [laughs]. You're both so happy to be here. Now, before we get started, I think we need to do a little scoreboard-watching here. You've both been on the show. Joe, you were one of my first guests pre-video.- Yeah, the good old days.- The good old days. Right, exactly. Kyle yours was more recent, after we did video, and if we're being honest, Joe took some pretty good liberties with your face and some images, and making some memes from your last appearance, so now that we're both on video and Joe's here with us, I assume you've got some revenge you're going to cook up for him?- As soon as I possibly can, yeah.- Yeah, [laughing] good, good. Well, if you have any trouble, don't ask me, but I think we have lots of teammates that are willing to help out, so...[Adam and Joe laugh]- I'm afraid that's true.- Yeah, all right. Well, today we're going to go through a prospect. Joe, why don't you tee this up for us? What do we know about these prospects?- Sure, so we've got Jim and Pam Halpert[Adam laughs] coming to First National Wealth Management today. They're a high-earning couple. Jim's making $160,000 a year, Pam's got $190,000 a year, in salary, so they're both a couple of high earners.- Nice!- 350 between the couple.- [Adam] Yeah.- They're mid forties, two kids, both still in school, so living at home, and they've kind of just hit the spot where they're realizing that all of this has gotten bigger than they're comfortable with. So stakes got larger, pay raises have continued to come, and they're realizing that maybe they can't do this all on their own, looking for a little help with planning, some other ideas, concerned that they're getting hit up by friends and others that might be looking to sell them some investment insurance products, not sure if they're the right things for them to be in, and all those sorts of things. So kind of at a crossroads a little bit. They're in a good spot, but they just are looking to make sure that they're doing all the right things.- Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Well, sounds like they're doing really well. If memory serves me, I think Jim and Pam came from a referral from another client, which is awesome, we always appreciate that. And then to bring everyone current, at this point, we've had one meeting with Jim and Pam, we basically had an initial meeting, and that meeting went really well, so we decided to take the next step, and for us, at that point, that means we're going to look at some additional information that they've got, that they can provide to us, things like investment account statements, retirement account balances, cash on hand, insurance, any information about debt, estate planning, tax returns, things like that. We take all that information, we throw it through our review process, and we start building them a balance sheet, and that balance sheet is really, really critical for us, because that's really the thing that we use as the foundation for all of our future advice. But while all that's happening, Kyle and his team are taking a deep dive into the investments for Jim and Pam. So Kyle, at this point, what are you guys looking for when you review those statements?- Yeah, when we get those statements, usually it comes in a big envelope, and there are hundreds, hundreds of pages of different statements going back as far as we possibly can, and really trying to find the answer to about three or four different questions. What do they own? Where and how do they own it? How much is it costing them? And this is the hardest part, how have they done? What they own is pretty self-explanatory. We're trying to figure out what do they have between stocks, bonds, cash, real estate, ETFs, mutual funds, crypto, in some cases, which they don't have here. And we're also trying to find where they own it. Is it inside of an IRA? Is it at an old employer's 401[k] plan? Is it in a taxable investment account? Where do they own it? How much they are they paying? And this is the most important part, this is the part that they can control, and unfortunately it's kind of hard to find this answer, always. In Jim and Pam's case, the answer was they were paying pretty close to 2% every year in fees- Phew!- And so that's the fee that they're paying their investment advisor, so a firm like us, but it's also the cost of the investments themselves, so that would be like the expense ratios on the mutual funds, the loads on A-share mutual funds, commissions, things like that.- And we still see that quite often, don't we?- We do, we see it quite often, and usually, that's because brokers, other people, investment people like to say that they're not charging any fees, but what's happening is the investments themselves are making kickbacks to the investment managers, and we see that quite often, and it was the case with Jim and Pam as well.- [Adam] Sure, yep.- And so, you know, 2% doesn't sound like much, you know, just 2%, two is a small number, but really, if you think about if their investments return 5%, another way of stating 2% fees is that the investment managers are keeping 40% of the returns, and so that's just, it's way too high,[Adam scoffs] and so that is where I think we add a lot of value is shining a light on what exactly you're paying for the advice that you're getting for the investments that you're using, and it's a pretty clear-cut case after we point that out to the client. And then lastly, how are they doing? That's always harder to find. A good rule of thumb, though, is the more you're paying for your investments, the worse your performance is.[Adam laughs][Joe laughs] So we don't really get access to a lot of, you know, clean historical performance data, so we really do focus on what are they paying, and then what do they own, and just trying to get things organized, trying to figure out how much they have as a percentage of the total in stocks, and bonds, and cash, because frankly, a lot of folks don't know that answer.- Sure, yeah, I'm always surprised how surprised our prospects are to learn a little bit more about what they own. If you asked them prior to our conversation, they'd probably say, "I don't know. I just trusted whomever to help invest this money for us, and hoped they were doing what's in my best interests." And something I talked about in the intro was the fact that we follow a fiduciary standard, which is again, a standard that means we're legally obligated to put our clients' interests in front of our own, so we're not taking on those expensive investments like a lot of people are. So that is a big, big difference, and something that we talk about quite a bit with our clients. All right, well with that, thank you, Kyle, let's pull up Jim and Pam's balance sheet here, and let's go through some of what we find. All right. If we start in the top left corner of that balance sheet, this gives us a net worth summary. Basically, what's happening here is is breaking out what Jim and Pam own, who owns it, and then what they owe. So looks like, from an asset standpoint, they have $1.686 million in assets, and Joe, you said they were in their mid-forties?- [Joe] Mid forties, doing pretty good.- [Adam] That is awesome! Good for them. Liabilities, they have $300,000 there, and we'll talk about that here in a second. So assets minus liabilities gives you a net worth of $1.386 million. Jim and Pam are doing great. Top-- Selling lots of paper.- Selling lots of paper [chuckles], yes, that's right, selling lots of paper. Top right hand corner, this gives you a little graphical representation of the makeup of their assets, so you can see, right now, Jim and Pam have about 2% of their assets in cash or cash alternatives, they've got just under 6% in taxable investments, and that's... You know, something we talk about here, we won't dive into it too much here, but one of the things we like to talk about here is using three buckets of investments to have in retirement, so that gives us a taxable bucket, that gives us a pre-tax bucket, or a deferred bucket, and then a Roth bucket. And so they've got two of those started now, which is fantastic. Qualified retirement accounts, so that's your 401[k], your IRAs, that is just over 50% of their assets are in those accounts. And lastly, they've got real estate making up about 41% of their assets. At mid-forties, it is not uncommon at all to see qualified retirement and real estate make up the bulk of the assets for a couple, and in this case, for Jim and Pam, that is about 92% of their assets, which is very, very common, and again, they are on a great track. Middle of the section here, we've got a more detailed breakout of the assets and liabilities, so just go through these here quick. They've got joint checking, joint savings, they've got a joint agency, that's that taxable investment account talked about a minute ago. Jim's got... Is this an old 401[k], at Athlead, or is that current?- [Kyle] That, I believe, is the current one.- [Adam] That is the current one, okay, so then he has a larger 401[k] from Dunder Mifflin, and then a small IRA. Pam, also Dunder Mifflin 401[k], which, I think we all know, that's where Jim and Pam met. Pam has a smaller 401[k], an IRA, and then they've got that real estate. So the real estate is, current value is $700,000 and that is their primary residence. On the liability standpoint, we mentioned that $300,000 liability, that is their mortgage, and so a $300,000 mortgage on a $700,000 house, that gives them quite a bit of equity, which is great. And for purposes of this discussion, their mortgage, remember, these days, 2.25%, so-- Pretty good. Yeah, [laughs] those were the days. I think I looked it up yesterday or the day before, and it was right around 7% for a 30-year fixed mortgage, so that's a little different than two and a quarter. Kyle, I'll start with you. This is a question we get quite often from couples at all different ages, is, "Should I pay off my mortgage, or should I use that extra money to invest, or for other things, other life things?" How do you go about answering that question?- I would say, I'd tell them to think about it in two different ways. There's the spreadsheet answer, which is, "Hey, your rate's 2.25%. Interest rates are a lot higher right now, that, you know, you're earning 5% just in your cash right now, therefore it's not an ideal decision to pay off that mortgage early, because you're better off leaving that cash invested, earning a higher rate than what your mortgage is charged in interest." I've softened up a little bit on that view, a little bit, over the years. In fact, one of your former guests, Morgan Housel, who is, you know, very successful and financially independent, he had a low-rate mortgage himself, and he decided to pay it off, and this is somebody that knows how to do math and looks at spreadsheets, and what he said was paying off that mortgage early was the worst financial decision he ever made, but the best money decision he's ever made, and I think what he means by that is it's hard to argue the math of it, keeping the mortgage out there, but the idea that you don't owe anybody anything, the sleep well at night factor, not having any debt, the freedom that that gives you mentally I think is worth something, too. So really, it's not something that we tell clients they have to do, it's more of a conversation that we have with them. What we find is that a lot of people have very strong views on this topic, and so really, we just have a conversation which side they lean on. Do they prefer the spreadsheet analysis, or are they more of the peace of mind folks? So with Jim and Pam, they decided just to leave the mortgage outstanding because of the super low rate.- Sure, yup. Joe, Kyle miss anything there?- I don't think he missed anything. I will say I'm surprised by the answer, though. I thought, for sure, Kyle would be the straight process numbers, say that's a ridiculous decision to pay it down early, and so I'm surprised that you're more nuanced than that[indistinct]- He has softened.- I guess so.- He has softened.- Yeah. I mean, just looking at theirs, and I think I'm in a similar situation. We've had an opportunity to pay down, our mortgage rate isn't as low as theirs, but have opted not to just because of the money side of it is, you know, there's ways to make that, make more than that 3% or 2.25, two and a quarter percent, elsewhere, so we've kind of had to do that math as well in my household, but if they were getting a new mortgage right now, I think the advice would be different. It'd be pay it down as quickly as possible.- Yep, yeah, that's right. Actually, I had coffee with a guy, I think it was last week, he said he had a 1.99% mortgage, which is bananas.- Yeah, that is insane.- He could afford to pay it off, but he decided not to, which I understand. Last thing here on the balance sheet, if we can circle back there, I mentioned they've got joint checking and joint savings accounts, so total, they've got$35,000 in liquid cash, which, I think, you know, between the three of us we could all recognize that $35,000 is a lot to have for anybody, and certainly a lot to have in cash or cash equivalence, but I think the three of us each have different risk tolerances personally, we won't go into that there, because we want to keep a clean show,[Joe laughs] but for Jim and Pam, one of the things that they talked about is they wanted to have a little bit more of a cushion, and so for them, $35,000 is great, and for a lot of people, that'll cover a lot of emergencies that can come up, but, you know, this economy's a little bit different now than it was 12, 18 months ago, and you start hearing the headlines of people losing jobs, and so that's one of the things, I think, that's on the back of their minds, is having a little more cushion, just in case. So with that, let's drill down into some of our high-level observations. So current financials, start here at the mortgage rate, which we talked about, two and a quarter, that's much lower than current market rates. One thing Jim and Pam have been doing is looks like they've been paying$500 additional each month towards principal, which is a great practice. However, I think this is going to be one of the first times that we'll see some conflict come in with some of these observations and recommendations. While Jim and Pam are doing quite well, obviously, their cash is not infinite, so they can't maybe pursue every goal all at the same time, and so some things may have to give and take a little bit. The next one, current cash accounts, like we just talked about, they wanted to build those up beyond 35,000, so one of their decision points may be, you know, do they take that $500 that they're paying towards their mortgage every month in addition, and do they add that to their current liquidity until they build up those checking and savings accounts to where they want them to be. Next is life insurance. So each of them currently have a term policy. Jim has a death benefit of $300,000, and Pam has a death benefit of $500,000. Joe, based on kind of where their incomes are today and what they've got going on with their life, how do you feel about those amounts?- Yeah, so I'm guessing that Jim and Pam purchased these several years ago when they were making significantly less money.- Yup.- General rule of thumb, and things that we talk about, is having insurance coverage that's probably 10 to 12 times earnings.- Yep.- That may be too much or not enough, depending on your situation. The fact that they've got term policies is good, that would be something that we usually gravitate towards, but given the fact that they've still got, you know, a sizable mortgage debt and two minor children, if anything were to happen to either of them, to replace that income, it probably makes sense for them to at least look into increasing that term coverage to closer to that 10-times earnings number.- Yup, and assuming... They're in the mid forties, assuming they're healthy, they shouldn't have any problem getting additional term coverage. And Joe, something you and I talked about the other day, I think both you and I got caught in this, and when we bought our term insurance when we're younger in our career, making less than we're making today, we did the 10- to 12-times rule, and that worked out just fine, but then as your incomes continue to increase, and Joe's, you know, much increased, as we know,[Joe laughs]- Hey, yeah, okay, that's it.- Yeah, you know, all of a sudden, that 10 to 12 times isn't working anymore, and so then you kind of come to a point where I think Jim and Pam are, is they're going to be, you know, could we go out and get more insurance? Probably, the answer's probably yes, and they could do so pretty affordably, I'm guessing, but if you look down a little bit deeper, is do they really need it? And the answer for them is probably yes, they do, but at some point in your life, you do ideally become self-insured, and you may look at your balance sheet, and say,"Okay, I don't have 10 to 12 times my income, but we've got a pretty good after-tax investment account here that we can tap if we need it. Maybe the mortgage is gone, or it's much less, maybe, at that point, the kids are out of the house, or getting close to being out of the house, and so you're much less dependent on each other's income. Because that's really what insurance is at this stage is income replacement, as the expenses are going to go up if you lose a spouse, and the income's going to go down, and so you have to have something to cover that. And so what that amount is will be, you know, something we'll suss out with Jim and Pam. But I agree with you, I think they're probably a little bit underinsured at this point. Education-wise, two kids, Cecilia and Phillip. They each have 529 accounts. Looks like they may be a little bit underfunded at this point, given what's happening with tuition and their current contribution rates. And this is, again, going to be another conflict, potentially, with their other goals. I think, as parents, a lot of us feel a little guilt if we don't give our kids everything that they could ever hope and dream for, and certainly, a fully-funded college account would qualify as that, but frankly, there's just not a lot of people that can afford to send their kids full boat through college through four years, especially any college of their choice, so Jim and Pam are going to have to decide is that goal more important than their own retirement goals, or some of the other goals, cash goals, things like that they have. And I think just a word of caution is to, as parents, to get through that guilt, even though it's a little bit tough, because for kids, they have scholarship opportunities, grants, they can work, they can go to a less expensive undergrad. There's a whole lot of things they can do to get through college. And there's student loans, too. There's no scholarships for retirement, so they may want to push that goal down a little bit. Family, Jim and Pam, currently, do not have a trust or estate plan in place. Joe, two kids, both still in the house, mid-forties, doing pretty well. What would you expect Jim and Pam to have in place at this point?- You know, I don't think they have to do a whole lot of super-sophisticated estate planning, but they should definitely have the basics covered, and they don't, right now, so to me, that means that they both need financial and healthcare powers of attorney so they've got somebody named to take over and act on their behalf in the event that they aren't able to do so, for both financial matters and for healthcare decisions. Need a basic will of some sort. That's also an area where you, as parents that have minor children, have the ability to name someone to take over and care for your children in the event that something would happen to both of them, common accident, or something like that, so if for nothing else, they need basic things just for that. I do think, given their level of wealth, and the minor children, as well, it wouldn't be surprising if after they got into these discussions with their own estate planning attorney, that they'd be interested in and move forward with a revocable trust, we see that a lot, and that could make some sense for them. It's not necessarily a have to have, but it might make sense for them. So I would say basic things, again, nothing crazy or super-sophisticated at this point. They're doing well, but they need to have something, and right now they have nothing.- Yeah, whenever you've got minor children, I think the number one goal should be to establish who gets custody.- For sure- Yeah, yeah. So if they do nothing else, that's a big one. And then finally, our last observation from the balance sheet here, retirement. Kyle, looks like Jim and Pam each have multiple qualified retirement accounts. Question here, does it make sense to consolidate? I think that's the pretty stock advice that people are going to hear is to consolidate those accounts whenever they can. Is that advice that you go along with all of the time, or is a little bit more nuanced than that?- Yeah, I think there's some nuance. Generally speaking, getting more organized usually makes sense, so if you have multiple former 401[k] plans or IRAs, laying out there, I think it makes sense to consolidate them. The nuance comes in if you've got a 401[k] plan currently where the investments are low-cost, and they're good choices, we might recommend rolling all your previous 401[k] balances into the current 401[k], and the reason for that is because if you don't have a traditional IRA, things like backdoor Roth, IRA conversions, and so forth are not possible if you have a traditional IRA, so that's where some of the nuance in the planning comes in. So basically, we're looking at that for our clients, trying to save them tax dollars. But as a simple rule of thumb, trying to have everything consolidated just from an organization, and again, a peace of mind perspective, just feeling like you have more control over everything is one of the first things we recommend.- Well, and there's value to having things a little bit more simple, too.- For sure, yeah.- Yeah. One of the things that's not on here, and just kind of looking at the balance sheet, a lot of times, we see Roth accounts, so that was mentioned there, backdoor Roths. Given how well Jim and Pam are doing from an income standpoint, I guess it's not too surprising we don't see Roth accounts there right now. Earlier, maybe, in their lives together, when they were making a little bit less and their tax rate was a little bit lower, contributing to a Roth IRA or making those 401[k] contributions, Roth contributions probably would've been beneficial, but at this point, they're probably sitting at a pretty high tax bracket, and so that equation might not work out in their favor at this point. All right, that's kind of high-level observations. Let's dig down into some of our initial recommendations. And again, this bears repeating, that we've had exactly one meeting with Jim and Pam, and we're just getting to know each other. We've reviewed some of their stuff, and so these recommendations that we're going to talk through today will likely change, and the point that they're going to change is when we're going to need to prioritize things, and then we have to marry those recommendations up with what are their goals, you know, what are their their biggest goals, and what are the things we're going to attack first, and then we can go through these and change them. So the first one, emergency fund, one of their goals was to build that up over the next few years, so the decision point for them may be considering to put that additional mortgage payment of $500 a month towards savings, instead, until they get those accounts up to a point where they are comfortable. Second one, speaking to an insurance expert about increasing current coverage. Joe mentioned we love the fact that they've got term policies, and I think those would be appropriate to continue to get term coverage here going forward, but maybe just a little bit higher amounts. Next, consult with an estate planning attorney to discuss wills. I mean, Joe, probably, it's 50-50, and people come to us, sometimes they've got an attorney or law firm that they've worked with in the past and they want to continue to work with. Other times, we're making recommendations and/or we're doing that based on fit, and cost, and needs.- Exactly, yup.- Yeah. If they've got somebody that they've worked with previously, great. If not we can at least give them some names based upon what they're looking for.- [Adam] Yeah, yeah, perfect. We'll skip this next one, come back to that. Increased savings rate to Cecilia and Phillip's 529s. You know, again, that's a stated goal of theirs, but as they see their balance sheet, and they see projections, and we walk through what this all could look like in retirement, they may decide, you know what, their accounts are good where they are, or we're just going to increase them a little bit, or they may decide to increase them more. So again, the money's finite, and so it's got to come from somewhere, so we'll see where that one ranks for them. And then consider consolidating those multiple 401[k] accounts and IRAs, which is something Kyle just walked through. So the last one, we've got one here that says current retirement funding could be improved by making annual increases to the 401[k] contributions each year. Work on getting those from 7%, which sounds like that's their contribution rate today, to 13% employee contributions in the next four years. We've got a slide that shows this impact. Kyle, what does this change do for Jim and Pam over the long run?- [Kyle] Yeah, what it does is basically, just like any investment that you make, you're deferring spending today so you can have more money in the future. So when you go from 7% to 13%, what that means for them at retirement is that they go from having 5.4 million up to something closer to, like, 6.3 million, so they're looking at, like, an 800-ish-thousand-dollar increase in the balance of their 401[k] plan at age 65, so-- That's hard to imagine, with just going from 7 to 13%.- Yeah, right now.- Yeah, it's fun with math, really. It doesn't seem like much of a change, you went from 7 to 13, but the way compounding works, of course, you know, the longer that money is invested, because they are relatively young, the balances grow significantly. So what's the benefit of having an additional$800,000 in retirement? Well, maybe it allows them to spend a little bit more in retirement, maybe it allows them to retire a little bit earlier than they might otherwise. So really, what they're doing by increasing, you know, deferral today is they're just giving themselves more options as they get closer to that retirement age.- Yeah, that's a meaningful change.- One question, is that, does that assume that their income rates stay the same, they're static?- Yeah.- So like if, I mean, if they increase, continue to increase earnings, too, while increasing their deferral rate, like, it'll be juiced even more than that wouldn't it?- That's a good question.- That's right, yeah, so the planning software, what it does is it assumes a raise, like an inflation-based raise in their salary, and then the growth of the assets is a return that we put in there based on what we think the stock and bond markets will return over time, and we're pretty conservative in those assumptions, so... And we go through that with our clients. We say that, you know, we're projecting an $800,000 increase in your retirement balance. It might be 600, it might be 1.4 million, we don't know, we're just trying to be conservative, and what we find is by showing people these numbers, they're more likely to actually do it [chuckles]. If we say go from 7% to 13%, they're like, "Oh, okay, but why? Like, that's paying today. Like, I'm going to have less money in my pocket today." But when you say, "How would you like an extra mil?" then they're like, "Oh, okay." Like that makes... They can get on board with that. So that's why we do that.- Yup. Great follow-up question, Joe Dylla!- Yeah, here to help.- Yeah, switch spots.- Yeah, good for you, I think you got a new job. I'm on my way out.- Please don't.[Adam laughs]- All right, so we've got all this list of recommendations, observations for Jim and Pam. Like I said, we've met with them once. For our viewers out there, you know, what does this next phase look like for us and for Jim and Pam? Basically, what happens next is now that we have all the analysis done, Jim and Pam will come back to our office and we'll present them with what we've found, so we'll walk through their balance sheet, we'll want to make sure that's dialed in, that we've got the right assumptions in there, we've got any assets that we think we are aware of that are captured in there, liabilities, those sorts of things, and make sure that's correct. Then Kyle and his team will go through the investments and what they've found, and send our suggestions there. And then we will go through an exercise, basically, to talk about goals and recommendations, and see what we want to attack first. Assuming that works for everybody, we start the engagement and we go, and then we meet on a periodic basis, however often they want to meet. You know, obviously we've got clients in, I think, keep me honest, 48 states, now, so some of these are done via Zoom. Some clients want to meet with us quarterly, other clients, you know-- Every two years- Every two years is fine, and, but then, you know, Jim and Pam's lives are going to change, you know, the kids are going to go to college, they're going to move into a different phase, they're going to talk about downsizing or buying a second home, and our job is to be here and help them walk through those changes thoughtfully. So that is really it. Did I miss anything?- I don't think so.- No, we're good.- We're good? Well, again, somewhat reluctantly, you were both on the show, but I appreciate it, I appreciate it very much, thank you.- Somewhat is a generous descriptor, I think,[Adam laughs]- We get to keep our jobs.- Yes.- Yes.- Continued employment- Continued employment, I think that's a fair trade-off.- Mm-hmm, you would- Yeah, most [indistinct].- Say that. All right, well I hope this exercise is helpful for everyone out there listening. Hopefully, they came away with one or two things that they can implement in their own financial lives, which would be great. Alternatively, if you found this exercise really interesting and want to see if we can help you the same way we helped Jim and Pam, we hope you reach out. With that, thanks gentlemen- Thank you.- Adam, thank you.- [Adam] I hope you found this helpful. If you did, please subscribe and share with your family or friends. If you have a topic you want us to cover in future episodes, send us a note to our website and if you're at the point where you want an expert opinion on your finances, reach out, and we'd be happy to start a conversation. And remember, any comments, insights, or strategies discussed on this podcast are intended to be general in nature, and therefore, may not be suitable for you in your situation, whatever that may be. Before acting on anything we discuss, please consult with your attorney, CPA, and/or your financial advisor.