From Big Debt to Big Impact

Can you imagine having $1 million in debt? Well Sarah Kurtenbach doesn’t have to. She and her husband lived it — and then she went on to start a company that teaches others financial literacy. Find out how the Sioux Falls entrepreneur, digital/social media expert, and founder of moveHER Money went from big debt to big impact.

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Transcript

- From big debt to big impact. 

Welcome to "Common Cents on the Prairie," a podcast dedicated to helping you demystify the sometimes complex topic of money. I'm Adam Cox, head of Wealth Management for The First National Bank in Sioux Falls. We're a community bank based out of South Dakota. In this podcast, we share expert insights from around the country and stories from our local community to arm you with the tools you need to make better financial decisions. Because the truth is, the more we talk about this stuff, the better off we're all going to be. [Rhythmic music] 

Today, I’m joined by Sarah Kurtenbach. Sarah has over 13 years of experience working in technology, social media, and influencer marketing. 

Her current business venture is building moveHER Money — an online educational program to equip high school and college girls with financial intelligence. Sarah is passionate about seeing young women rise up in the area of leadership and money management as they engage with truth in a refreshing way, and I know you’re going to see that passion in today’s episode.

After being a VP of a Fortune 500 Media Company in Atlanta and New York City, Sarah moved back home to South Dakota to marry the love of her life and start a consulting practice. Sarah and Chad have a son, Pierce, and a daughter, Ava. If there's one thing you can always find in her house, it's either coffee or dance parties.

I hope you enjoy my conversation with Sarah Kurtenbach. 

All right, Sarah, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining me.

- Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited and honored to be here.

- Oh, the honor’s mine. The honor’s mine. This is going to be fun.

All right, before we dive into what you’re doing today, let’s start at the beginning. What was money like for you growing up?

- My first core memory of money was when I was in fourth grade.

- Okay, that’s early.

- So we start early. I mean, before that, my parents did the typical, you know, “Here’s your chore chart, and we’ll pay you allowance based off of the chores that you do.”

- Yep.

- But in fourth grade it really changed for me. So what happened is, my dad took me to a bank, and he opened up my first checking account. He took me home, and he taught me how to balance a checkbook. And then he said, ‘Sarah, things are going to change in this house when it comes to money. You are now responsible for what you want to buy. Your mother and I, we will pay for certain school clothes and church clothes, and we’ll also pay for your sports fees and your basketball shoes — things you’ll need for athletics. Outside of that, everything else is on your own. So whatever you want, if you’re going to go out to eat with friends, if you want to buy a new shirt, that is 100 percent up to you. And we’re going to come up with a lot of ways you can make money, so the list will be endless. But you’re responsible for that now.”

- Fourth grade?

- Fourth grade. Very core memory for me.

- Wow!

- For obvious reasons. 

- Yes! That’s intense. 

- [Sarah laughs] Yeah.

- And you learned how to balance a checkbook in fourth grade?

- Can you believe that? I know.

- I’m not sure I could balance a checkbook right now.

- Yeah, who does that anymore? [Sarah laughs]

- Oh my gosh, that’s incredible.

- Yeah.

- What did, like, what did you take away from that? Like, what was — obviously you still remember it. It’s a core memory. So, what was your takeaway from that?

- You know, I think, at the time, I did not like it.

- Yeah.

- Right? Because I see all of my friends who, their parents are paying for things. Or they’d say, “Hey Mom and Dad, I’m going to go out to B-Dubs with my friends. Can I have 20 bucks?” Their parents will give them 20 bucks, and my parents were not like that at all, right? 

- [Adam sighs] Yeah.

- But, what I learned very quickly is that as young girls, we are able to do so much more than people think that we are. And I think my dad noticed that, and he saw that. Not that there’s anything special about me, but I think that my dad just knew that, man, as young kids, they can actually be very responsible for themselves, and they can also be really creative. 

- Yeah.

- When it comes to ways to make money, ways to save money as well, too. That’s kind of a key thing that I learned at that time. And I think the other thing was I quickly learned that my parents will never enable me. 

- Clearly! [Both laugh]

- Never! Whether it’s financially or in other things like that, you know, if it is to be it’s up to me. And so, I really was able to start gaining that type of mentality in fourth grade.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So you’ve got two young kids?

- Yes. I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. 

- Okay. Are you going to do the same thing with them? 

- No! [Sarah laughs hysterically]

- Like, you’re cut off at fourth grade?

- It’s so wild. I, you know, I’ve been thinking about this now. Because we started doing sticker and chore charts with them, and we pay them based off of how many stickers they get per week. And I can’t say that my husband and I have had the conversation of, you know, in fourth grade we are cutting them off, baby! You know, we have not talked about that. But we definitely want to be able to raise our kids with a mentality of, “You’re responsible for your own money. And we’re going to teach you to do that — we’re not just going to throw you out into the world without teaching you how.” But there will definitely be a time and a place where we sit them down and we have, you know, ‘the talk.’

- Yes. Oh, sure.

- [Sarah giggles] The money talk.

- Yes.

- About, you know, now things are going to change in this house. Here’s what’s going to change, and then here’s a whole list of ways that you can start making actual money.

- Yeah. Oh, what a memory. How do you think, like, how you do you think that set you up as a young adult, having that start in fourth grade? Obviously you went through high school that way, and the desire to earn money so you can get those extra things. Like, as you launched into adulthood, you hear a lot nowadays about failure to launch and kids boomerang, coming back into the house. How do you think that experience set you up as an adult?

Yeah, that’s such a good question. I knew right away that I would never be able to be one of those girls like I mentioned earlier. To go up to my parents and say, “Hey, I’m going to go out to eat at B-Dubs with my friends. Can I have 20 bucks?” My parents would never give that to me, so I actually never asked. 

- Hmm.

- I almost had this expectation that nothing would be given to me in regards to money from my parents.

- Yeah.

- So if I want to go out to eat with my friends, I better work or do something to make money so I can make that happen. There was another key moment that happened when I was in college that, again, kind of displayed that my parents were not going to enable me. And I went to college at University of Sioux Falls, and it was football season. There was a massive snowstorm before a football game, and it was freezing at this football game. So, I’m there with my friends. I’m freezing my butt off. And it’s halftime of the football game. And I know my dad is in the stands.

- Yeah.

- And all I wanted was a cup of hot chocolate. So it’s, what, $1.25? And so, I call my dad, and I– and he answers the phone. I’m like, “Dad, I’m freezing. Can you please buy me a cup of hot chocolate? I didn’t bring any cash with me.” And he goes, “Sarah, you work. You make your own money. You can buy your own hot chocolate.” And he probably hung up the phone on me. And I’m like, “Yeah, I probably should’ve just known to not ask my dad.” You know? [Adam chuckles] For money or to buy me things. But I’ll tell you what that did for me as an adult. Because, again, during that time, did I like that? No. There’s things that you realize when you get older about the strategy your parents actually had in mind, that were so beneficial to you that you just couldn’t see at the time when you were younger. Because you were thinking, but my friends get all this stuff. My friends’ parents pay for all this stuff. So, how that really changed when I got older is when I was around the age of 23, I moved to New York City for my job. And I was living in Atlanta previously. So I moved to New York City, and in New York City you grow up fast. 

- Mhm.

- You grow up really quickly in New York City. What I started to realize is so many of my friends in New York City all had their parents paying rent for them, or helping them pay rent.

- Oh, interesting.

- And I already knew my parents would never do that for me, so it just really changed my mentality of, I have to be just so careful with the money that I make, and even how I ask for raises and how I negotiate with my boss on if I should get a bonus and things like that too. So, it just kind of, I feel, elevated me to a level faster than other girls my age because of what my parents started when I was in fourth grade. 

- Oh, wow. Oh, that’s an awesome experience. Okay, so, you go to Atlanta. New York City. And at some point, you met your husband, Chad, right?

- That’s right. Mhm. 

- Um, talk to me a little bit about when you two got married. Diane and I have shared our debt story. It sounds like you and Chad had a little bit of debt yourselves when you got married.

- We did.

- How much was that?

- Are you ready for this, Adam?

- Maybe. I’m not sure everyone else is going to be ready. I think I know the answer.

- Take a deep breath.

- Yeah.

- We had $1 million in debt.

- There you go.

- When we got married. 

- [Adam chuckles] Yes.

- Tell me about it. Makes me sick. So, what– where that debt came from and how that happened is, it was two different things. So, a part of that debt was loans from medical school. So, my husband’s an orthopedic surgeon, and let’s just say medical school is wicked, wicked expensive.

- Yeah, not cheap.

- More expensive than I ever thought possible. And then the other portion of that debt was our house. 

- Okay.

- So we were building a house. So we had– we bought, you know, a plot of land. We were building a home. So it was those core two things. But when you added all of them up, it equated to about a million dollars in debt.

- Yeah.

- Yikes.

- Yikes! [Sarah laughs] Whenever I tell people I had like $220,000, they’re always like, “Oh my gosh! Are you, are you–” So, congratulations. 

- Thank you. [Both laugh]

- Yours dwarfed mine. Yes. So, All right, one thing, you know, I’ve talked a lot about, because of the debt experience that we had, you know even after we got the debt paid off, I’d say we still have some scars from that. Or maybe, I’d say, maybe it just permanently changed the way we view money. Have you and Chad had a similar experience, or were you able to put it out of your mind and move on?

- Yeah, I would say once you have debt and then you pay that debt off, it definitely changes you. 

- Yeah.

- So, what Chad and I did is, um, you know, we got married, we had so much debt, and when I– when we did our taxes our first year and I really saw line items of how much we were paying in interest, it made me just want to throw up.

- Sure.

- And that was the moment for me when I said, “We are paying this off quickly.” 

- Okay.

- Whatever we need to do to pay this off, we are going to do it. So kind of our mentality in that is, um, you know, Chad would be able to make income from taking call. I could make income from commission sales; I had a consulting business. Any extra income, we just threw right at the debt that we had. Um, and we were just really strategic into how we paid off our debt as well too. Like with our mortgage, we took a 15-year mortgage loan, and we made payments every two weeks because if you add that up, that’s about 26 payments a year. So you’re already paying down your mortgage more quickly.

- Sure.

- And we worked with our financial advisor, who helped us to set up everything automatically for our retirement, our investments, our IRAs, 401(k)s. And he basically said, “Whatever is left in your checking account, you can use at your discretion.” I’m like, “Our discretion is paying off debt, baby. Let’s go!” You know? [Both laugh] So we just hammered it down, and in less than six years we paid it off completely. 

- Oh, wow!

- And for– and what you realize when you don’t owe a cent to anyone is, there is a sense of freedom and security and comfort that you can’t replicate anywhere else. And even when COVID happened, so when COVID happened, they shut down all elective surgeries at the hospital for over six weeks. So my husband wasn’t able to do surgery. My job actually didn’t change because I already had a virtual job and was working wherever my computer was. But we had no financial stress because we had purposely made the decisions to not have a life full of debt. So, for me, when I look at how did this change me and even in the future, you kind of prioritize things in your life, right? And for me, I prioritize the freedom and the security of being debt-free. So, we are going to do everything in our power to continue to live that type of a life. Because I love what that brings to our mental state and also just to our family.

- Sure. That’s interesting. It’s something Diane and I kind of revisit quite a bit is, what do we value the most? And for us it’s financial freedom.

- Yes. 

- You know, even more than maybe a bigger house or whatever is. And some of those things will come with all that, but at core, because we had that experience like you did, we just don’t want to get back there again. 

- A hundred percent. I mean, even when you just think about your mental energy, and to not have to spend any amount of mental energy thinking about debt — when are we going to pay this debt off, how much are we paying in interest — and know you can use that mental energy in other things, whether it’s with your spouse or your children or making memories or your job or creativity. I mean, that’s just priceless, right?

- Yep.

- And you really are able to unleash that amount of mental energy when you are able to pay off that very last payment, which feels so, so good. As you know.

- Mhm. Yes. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. Well, now I’m starting to see, as we build this story here a little bit, why you’re doing what you’re doing today. So, this is a good pivot point. Tell me about moveHER Money, and what are you building?

- Yes! moveHER Money is online courses and digital curriculum to teach high school and college girls all that they need to know about money. 

- Okay.

- So it could be anything from, this is how to have the right money mindset and how to have the desire to be an asset to yourself and to your future spouse, to the core basics: here’s how to budget, how to save, how to invest. I teach a lot about debt. 

- Okay. Yep.

- Right? This is what debt is. This is how they market to you. Here’s how they try to manipulate you as a girl. And here’s how to live a debt-free life. Because as we talked about, the sense of freedom and security you can find from that is something I want other girls to achieve. And taxes — how to fill out a W-4. You know, right? Teaching girls really all that they need to know to be able to live a financially independent life. 

- Sure. I suspect I know the answer to this, but what inspired you to get, like, so excited to teach girls about money?

- Yeah, it’s a couple key things. So, you know, for me, I’ve always just had a passion when it comes to numbers and money and finances. I’ve also had a passion for high school and college girls. 

- Okay.

- I love mentoring girls, and that’s the age range that I just thrive at the most.

- Hmm.

- So, I’ve always had a desire, and I feel kind of a calling in my life, to be able to do something to really significantly help that age range of girls. And when I could combine my other passions of finance and business and faith all into one, which is her moveHER Money, it just all made me so excited. And I was able to build the course and kind of complete it pretty quickly I feel, because when you’re kind of walking in your calling and maybe what God created you to do, there’s a lot of things that start rolling quickly. One thing, though, that really lit a fire under me to start moveHER Money was last year when the news came out that there was going to be student loan forgiveness. And the billions and billions and billions of dollars that would go into that. And the thing that I just could not and still cannot understand is, why are we paying so much money to forgive student loans, but we’re not putting the same amount of money for financial literacy so people don’t get into this mess to begin with? Because when you just pay off the student loan, you’re actually not fixing the problem. The next generation of girls is going to do the same thing and the generation after them. Like, this is a crisis. If we want to fix the crisis, we have to teach people the right way to avoid mistakes and make the right decision. That’s what really lit a fire under me to also create moveHER Money. 

- And now, so that’s your origin story right? 

- Yes.

- I mean, well, that’s awesome. Obviously, it came from passion. And, I agree, financial literacy — that’s a large part of the reason why we do this show is because there’s, you know, there’s not a ton of information out there, and a lot of the information that is out there isn’t great. And so, even on a small scale, if we could do something to advance this cause, we’re going to do it. Obviously, you’re doing the same thing. Which is, which is awesome.

- Exactly. I mean, and if you think about it too, when someone is able to learn about money and how manage their money and have control over their own money, so many other things in their life stack on top of that. 

- Hmm.

- Money is really one of the core foundational pillars in someone’s life. And so, that’s why it’s so important also to teach girls at a young age. Because credit card companies just prey on high school girls. It’s their number one target. So, if a high school girl doesn’t know any better, and she’s thinking, “Wow, a credit card! This is fun. This is free money,” because she was never taught, all of a sudden she gets into credit card debt. The number one reason why students drop out of college is because of financial reasons. It’s because of debt. Not because of academic failure. It’s not because of health crises. It’s because of debt. 

- Hmm.

- So, now, let’s say the girl gets that credit card debt. Now she has to drop out of college and she is forever living the rest of her life just trying to maintain it and just trying to pay off her debt. Versus living a life she truly has control over because she learned to avoid those mistakes at the beginning. 

- Yeah. Well, yeah. It’s– it is difficult to see. And, um, I mean, you talk about the causes of divorce. The causes of stress in the house. The causes of stress at work. People staying in jobs they don’t want to stay in because it’s, it all comes back to money and that money stress. So, good for you for doing something about it! That’s awesome. All right, but now, none of us is perfect with money. And I’m sure you haven’t always been perfect with money. Obviously, you asked your dad for hot cocoa once when you were freezing.

- What was I thinking?!

- What were you thinking, honestly? [Sarah laughs] Have you made any big money mistakes, or any lessons you’ve learned that you care to share?

- Of course. Just like everyone, I have a hundred percent made money mistakes. Uh, one money mistake that I’ll share with you is something that actually became a good thing. You know, sometimes people say that your biggest mistakes can also become your biggest learning lessons or pivotal points in you life?

- Yep.

- So, luckily that was true for me. The story is I was 27. I was living in New York City, and I had been dating a guy. We were dating for almost three years. And he was living in California. And one day he calls me up and he says, “Hey Sarah, I’m unable to pay my bills. And I’m wondering if you’ll loan me money to be able to make rent and pay my bills.” And I’m thinking, “Oh my goodness. Well, that’s just the basics. So, how much do you need?” And he needed thousands of dollars. And I thought about it for basically a day, and then I ended up loaning him the money. So, what I learned during that time is I did not tell anyone that I had loaned him money because I didn’t want anyone to find out. And so, I think that’s a key thing is if you ever make a decision in your life, and, you know, we’re talking about money today, but if you ever make a money decision where you don’t tell anybody because you don’t want anyone to find out: red flag. 

- Yeah.

- Right? Huge, huge, huge red flag. So, I should have known that from the beginning. I should have listened to my gut. But I didn’t. So I loaned him money. Dave Ramsey has a stat that says: when you loan someone money, the majority of relationships change, and not for the better. 

- Yeah.

- So that stat was true for us. So, that was kind of the pivotal part of what led to, shortly after that, me ending the relationship. 

- Sure.

- And I never saw that money again. So, there’s a money mistake too. I never saw that money again. So, bye bye money. There it goes. But the beauty behind that, so where this mistake comes to fruition, is I ended the relationship. Four months after that, I was set up on a blind date with a man named Chad Kurtenbach — who is now my husband.

- There you go. 

- So actually, when I look back, maybe it was– maybe it was good thing I loaned him money because it ended that. But actually, I lost thousands of dollars and never saw it again.

- Oh, shoot. [Sarah laughs] We all pay taxes, right?

- Oh, yeah, true! That’s right. Just vanishes.

- Yeah, that was tax for you. [Both laugh] Well, I want to come back to one thing you mentioned earlier. You talked a lot about credit card companies and people marketing to, particularly, younger girls. So we live in a culture now where social media portrays things that may be true, maybe are not true. Have you ever come across an instance where things aren’t exactly the way they seem from a money perspective?

- You know, I think that what’s different now is people my parents’ age, they compared themselves with their neighbors or people at their work or their church. Where I’m a Millennial — Millennials and then Gen Z, we compare ourselves with everyone that we see on social media that we don’t even know. So the game of comparison has grown exponentially, and I would say not for the better. So what happens, especially with girls, is when it comes to comparing yourself to someone else financially, is they see these other girls on Instagram and on TikTok and other influencers who look like they have it all.

- Yeah. 

- They have these bomb apartments or bomb houses. They’re getting labeled bags. They have awesome shoes. They’re taking incredible vacations. And, how are they paying for it? Hmm, it’s kind of a mystery, you know. Well, something that really came to light to me one time is, I was talking to a close friend of mine who is a very successful beauty influencer. And from the outside, it looked like she had everything: this incredible apartment looking over the skyline of the city; um, like, tons of just beautiful décor in her apartment; taking all these trips. And even as one of her close friends, I thought she was making bank.

- Sure. Yeah.

- Right? 

- Yeah.

- Well then, I’m having a conversation with her one time, and it was right before Thanksgiving, and she goes, “Well, Sarah, I’m hoping I can make a brand deal soon with Lexus.” I’m like, “Lexus?! Look at you girl! That sounds amazing. Get it!” You know? [Adam laughs] And then she told me the truth. And the truth was, she goes, “Sarah, I’m hoping to make this brand deal with Lexus so they’ll let me rent a car for free so I can see my parents for Thanksgiving. Otherwise, I won’t be able to afford a rental car to see them.” And I was shocked, Adam. Because, we’re talking hundreds of dollars to rent a car, not even thousands of dollars. So, I think it really showed me, holy cow, we have to be so careful as individuals. And I talk to the girls, right? But we have to be so careful as individuals as in to how do we compare ourselves to someone else financially, because most likely, what’s happening on the inside is nowhere near what we’re seeing on the outside and we’re seeing on social media.

- Yeah. Ugh. Well, you had me at beauty influencer — which I am not. 

- [Sarah bursts out laughing] You could’ve fooled me, so.

- Yeah, right. Yes, right. Oh. That’s wild. Yeah, I mean, it’s so true though. Today, it’s so hard to know what’s real and what’s not. It used to be, like you said, your parents, my parents, the only point of comparison was when Bob or Jane up the street got a new vehicle and they said– they get that pit in their stomach and say, “Well, I want one of those things.” But now, we’re surrounded by it, and it makes it so, so difficult to be good with money. 

- Yeah.

- So, it’s just, yeah. It’s tough out there. It’s tough out there in the streets. Even for a beauty influencer.

- Even for a beauty influencer, man. It’s hard.

- All right, well, we like to leave people with a little bit of knowledge on these episodes. And, obviously, I applaud you and the work you’re doing. It’s fantastic. Um, the– obviously you were inspired, and you’re doing incredible things. I’m so excited to see where this goes. What tips do you have for handling their money a little bit better in the rest of 2023?

- I’m going to leave people with two tips.

- Okay.

- And, these tips are kind of geared for girls, because that’s who I talk to. But also, I feel like if you’re a parent, these are really good tips for you, for your daughter especially or your son. 

- Yep.

- So, the first tip is if you’re a girl or if you’re a parent with a daughter, and that tip is: do not wait for a man to take care of you financially. I cannot tell you, Adam, how many times I’ve seen firsthand with some of my best friends, girls making the decision to wait to understand money, pay off debt, save money, invest money, until they get married. 

- Hmm.

- And there’s so many issues with that, but one of them is, there was just some research put out from “The Knot,” which is a huge brand related to weddings. 

- Yes.

- And they said that in 2022, the average age of people getting married is 31. 

- Hmm.

- So, let’s say, let’s say as an 18-year-old, you know, if we’re in our country, that’s kind of where you’re a, quote, “adult,” and you’re financially on your own. Going from 18 to 31 without figuring out your finances is terrible. So, number one, you just cannot wait for a man for you to get financially secure and stable. The other thing, too, is you don’t know who the person is that God created for you, so as a girl, what if the man that you marry is in a worse financial position than you. Or he doesn’t understand money. 

- Yeah.

- You have to be in control of yourself. So, that’s tip number one. And then, tip number two that I see girls do is they think, “I’ll wait to invest until I get a ‘big girl’ job. I’ll wait to invest until I make X amount of money. Or I’ll wait to invest until this happens to me.” When in reality, you know, you know in the financial world the power of compound interest. 

- [Sarcastically] I’ve heard of it. 

- Right? 

- Yep.

- And starting early to invest. So, that’s my other biggest tip. Whether if you’re a girl or if you are a parent who has children, man, getting them to invest now: it can happen now. You don’t have to wait until you’re 35 and you have your “big girl” job. You can start now. Because, as we know, investing early on with compound interest can mean you have a very different lifestyle when you get older.

- Yeah. Absolutely. Good tips! Well, that’s a good way to end it. [Sarah laughs] Well, and, as a girl dad, this was awesome for me to hear. Um, my daughters, uh, they do talk about money, which is interesting. But, despite what I do for a living, they don’t talk to me about money. They talk to my wife. Which is interesting.

- That’s so interesting.

- Yeah. So. But at least they’re interested in it.

- You know, the other thing that’s really interesting, too, is research shows — and, when you go back to your life and you think about what you were like in high school and college, you’re like, “Oh, this all makes sense!” — but research shows that when you turn about 13 or 14, things just change in your brain, and you view your parents as dumb, basically. [Adam laughs] You’re like, “They don’t know what they’re talking about. They can’t relate to me at all. They don’t even know what my friends are doing.”

- Yep.

- So, as a parent, one of the key things to do during that time in their– in that age group is to be able to surround your child with other adults who can speak into them. Because your child will listen to their basketball coach in a different way than they listen to you. 

- Uh huh. Sure.

- Or they’ll listen to their friend’s dad in a different way than they listen to you. And as we know, parents are the most pivotal example to kids. So I’m not saying you’re not an example anymore — I’m just saying during that age range, it just changes for them with, like, who they really listen to. And then, once they turn about 24, it all comes back around, and you become the wisest person in the world again to them. And that happened to me and my parents. I vividly remember, and I’m like, “Wow, my parents were right all along.”

- Yeah. [Both laugh]

- So, I think that’s why, too, even, you know, when it comes to money, if you’re a parent and you have a ballet coach or a basketball coach or a tutor for your child, there is also an importance of having a money mentor for your girl who can talk to her, because she may or may not be listening to you during that age range. 

- Mhm. I’m going to go with NOT listening to me. 

- Yeah, one big “not.” [Both chuckle]

- Yeah, a big “not.” Well, Sarah, this was awesome. Where can people find out more about you and what you’re doing?

- Yes, so, the website is: moveHER-dot-money. I can also be found on Instagram. My personal Instagram is @sarahkurtenbach. Sarah with an “H,” Kurtenbach. And then, the moverHER Money Instagram is @movehermoney. 

- Awesome. Well, we’ll put those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. This was awesome.

- Awesome. Thanks for having me.

- You bet.

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