Millionaire Myth-Busting With a Ramsey Show Co-Host

He went from $40,000 in debt to becoming a net-worth millionaire in less than 10 years, all by his early 30s. So, what’s George Kamel’s secret? Follow along as this Ramsey Solutions personality and bestselling author busts some common millionaire myths with Adam.

Learn more about George Kamel here. 

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Transcript

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- "Breaking Free from Broke" with George Kamel.[upbeat music] Welcome to "Common Cents on the Prairie," a podcast dedicated to helping you demystify the sometimes complex topic of money. I'm Adam Cox, head of Wealth Management for The First National Bank in Sioux Falls. We're a community bank based out of South Dakota. In this podcast, we share expert insights from around the country and stories from our local community to arm you with the tools you need to make better financial decisions. Because the truth is, the more we talk about this stuff, the better off we're all going to be. George Kamel is a national bestselling author of "Breaking Free from Broke" and a personal finance expert. Following Dave Ramsey's Proven Money Plan, George went from a negative net worth to a millionaire in under 10 years. Since 2013, he has served on the Ramsey team speaking across the country, co-hosting top ranked Ramsey network podcasts like "Smart Money Happy Hour" and "The Ramsey Show." George has been featured on Fox News, Fox Business, and The Iced Coffee Hour, among other networks. On his YouTube channel, George educates and entertains, exposing the financial system designed to keep you broke. His goal is to help people spend less, save more, and avoid money traps so they can live a life with more margin, options, and freedom. I hope you enjoy my conversation with George Kamel. Alright, George Kamel, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining me.- It's an honor to be here.- All right, so I like to start off these episodes with an icebreaker whenever possible. And this was easy because you wrote a new book called "Breaking Free from Broke," so I get to pull this one right from your book. In it you said, "Like none of you, I grew up as an Arabic Baptist, pop punk loving skateboarder in a mostly Irish Italian Catholic suburb of Boston." I mean tale as old as time, right? So my first question, George, is what exactly constitutes pop punk music?- Oh man! Well, I sum it up with one band that I think was the G.O.A.T. when it comes to pop punk, and that is Blink 182.- I mean.- I recently saw them on the Reunion Tour here in Nashville and it brought me back to being 13 years old and thinking I was way more hardcore than I really was as a white kid in the suburbs. But you know, we spiked our hair up, we wore the big shorts with the long socks, and we thought, this is it. We are living our best life.- [laughs] I love it. Well, I must be just a hair bit older than you because Blink 182 was all of high school for me.- Oh, wow.- I saw the Reunion Tour and I was like, "Should I? Mm." I haven't been able to pull the trigger yet.- Yeah, I was like,"Is my mom going to find out I'm at this concert? Like, do I need to let her?" I was like, "I'm a grown man, I'm going to go to this show and enjoy it."- A grown man. [laughs] Oh, awesome. Well, George, I'm really excited to get into your content today because your story is fantastic. In summary, and we'll hear all about how you did it, but in short, you went from a negative net worth to a million dollar net worth in less than 10 years, which is incredible. I mean, those aren't Pitbull lyrics, speaking of music, right? That's your real life. So I want to hear all about it, but first, set the stage for me. What was money like for you growing up?- Hmm. Well, I grew up with immigrant parents who came from the Middle East. So I was a first generation American here in the States. And you know, my parents adapted to the American culture pretty quickly, and that included the money culture. And so it was build your credit, get the credit cards, get the mortgage, and you know, just try to navigate the financial world as best you can. And they did a great job working hard and raising us. But I fell for very similar traps. And that looked like, well, you got to get student loans to be a student. And so I racked up $36,000 in student loan debt. I got those two credit cards. I still remember it's the American Express Delta Sky Miles card. I was like, this is wise. Amex is for wealthy people, right? And I'm going to get these sky miles and fly for free to go see my family at Christmas. And then I got the Discover cashback because smart people get their cashback. So I was so excited for the rotating cashback at restaurants. So I'd go out to eat thinking I'm beating the system right now, 5%, are you kidding me? I am winning.- I'm actually making money.- Exactly. And then $4,000 in credit card debt later I was frustrated, anxious, still broke, and thinking this can't be it, like being this rat in the financial maze is not what we were created to do. And so I escaped average and I got connected with the Ramsey organization, got an internship here, went through Financial Peace University, our flagship money course. And it was like the veil was just ripped off. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this whole thing is like one giant scam and I can get out of this. I can live outside of this matrix." And so that's exactly what I did. Over 18 months, got out over that 40,000 in consumer debt, met my wife at Ramsey and she was way better off, way better looking, way better with money than me. And so we started off our marriage debt free. We got a house in a very modest way, a 15-year fixed with a big down payment. And we paid it off in 26 months. And all of that on top of investing in our 401ks here at Ramsey led us to all of a sudden be net worth millionaires in our early 30s with no payments in the world. And so I want to tell everyone out there it's possible for you. I'm a W-2 employee. I have not been making amazing money my whole career. I was entry level salaries for most of my career here. And I can do it and that means you can too.- So that's got to be, all right. there's a lot of things I want to unpack there, but there's got to be a hack in there for couples. Like you have to marry someone who also works at Ramsey Solutions because that must mean-- That is ideal.- It's really easy to get on the same page.- Well we hire, our hiring is so intense, and I'm like, if they made it through the Ramsey interview process, they're good enough to marry. So that one worked out for me. But I do think there is a hack in there and I think your spouse, we always say your income is your greatest wealth building tool. I think number two, your spouse is your second greatest wealth building tool. Because if you have a spouse who's not on the same page, who's not aligned with values, it has nothing to do with how much debt they have, it's about their mindset, their goals, their mission when it comes to money in the future. And when you guys are aligned on that, you become invincible, especially when you have dual income, and no kids, and all of that stuff as young couples do, man, that is the time to really get a head start with building wealth.- Yeah, you had a quote in your book. You said, "Ignorance was bliss until it was broke." Did you experience that together or were you with Whitney at that time?- Mm, well you know, my debt-free journey from consumer debt was when I was single. And so, the whole ignorance was bliss part was when you don't really know much about money, it's just easier to make mistakes. It's easier to justify them.'Cause you can go, oh, I didn't know any better. And the problem with knowledge is that you know too much to then stay the same. And that's what happened when I went through Financial Peace University and I read "The Total Money Makeover." You can't go back. You know, you can continue to stay in debt, but your body is like,"Hey, you know this isn't safe, right? You know there's a better way, right" And so that's what happened to me on my debt-free journey. And usually ignorance does lead to broke because a lack of financial literacy is what causes so many of us out there to make these financial mistakes that takes decades sometimes to clean up. And sometimes it takes generational change to finally break free from these cycles.- Yeah. Well, so $40,000 in debt. I mean, you were an underachiever. I was $220,000 in debt.- Uh, is that student loans?- All student loans, all graduate school.- Wow.- So I actually, my experience, my exposure to Dave Ramsey started right at the end of graduate school. And I was driving back and forth between South Bend and Minneapolis because I was married and my wife was living in Minneapolis and so I had a lot of windshield time. And so I stopped at Barnes & Noble and found "Total Money Makeover" on CDs. Remember those?- Yes.- And listened to those on my way. And that was my first entree into the kind of "Total Money Makeover" and the Dave Ramsey Solutions. So I got it. I mean, part of me wishes I would've found it sooner, but it is-- As we all do. If I got this at 16, that'd be of all time, so we always say that the best time to plant the tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. And that's, you have that like, "Gosh, I'm so dumb." But you guys got to go,"All right, I'm going to start today. Whether I'm 30, 40 or 50, there's still time. If I can fog up a mirror, there's still hope for me."- Yep. So I want you to do a little myth busting with me. A little rapid fire myth busting.- Uh, okay.- So you went from a negative net worth to a million dollar net worth. During this period of time, did you experience any of the following? Did you win the lottery?- No.- Did you sell a business?- No.- Did you build an app?- No.- Okay, did you inherit lots of money?- Zero.- Okay, last one, did you start making millions of dollars a year?- No. Although Dave, if you're listening, I think this guy's got ideas. I like him.- I'm open to it. I'm open to it. So you are a W-2 millionaire. I mean, you're just kind of a normal dude, right?- It's almost too boring to excite anyone when they go,"What's the secret?" And I'm like, "Invest in your 401k and get your house paid off as soon as you can." That's it. There's really, it's as simple as that and as hard as that because we want to overcomplicate it, we want to make it sexier and more interesting than it really is. But in our millionaire study we found that it was really boring habits that caused them to become millionaires. Very few of them, it was one crazy thing over here, and that they just chose the right stock and they got the inherit- It was just, yeah, I just had an employer and put money away for the future and got our house paid off. And all of a sudden you add up the assets minus liabilities, which if you follow the Ramsey plan, the liability side is beautifully empty because you have zero debt. That's the goal. And so that's what causes people to build wealth and keep it.- Yeah. Well, and I don't want to gloss over this, I mean, you know, we always talk about the people who sell businesses and who have a big liquidity event or tech millionaires or whatever. But I think your research and others has proven time and time again that most millionaires are W-2 millionaires. And frankly, they get there rather slowly. Which I understand in today's culture, we're very instantaneous and we want things right away and we want the big house and the cars and the clothes and everything. But your work shows that most millionaires, I think they get there around like right before age 50, something like that. And most of it's through like what you're talking about, through their 401k. So it's really, really kind of regular stuff, isn't it?- Yeah. And it's frustrating for people in their 20s because like you said, there's this instant gratification mindset instead of delayed gratification. And so they're looking at their parents who probably still have a mortgage who are probably still working into their 60s, and they're going, "Gosh, I don't want that to be me. Like I need to be a millionaire by 30 or else I'm screwed." That's the mentality that a lot of young people have. And it's heartbreaking 'cause I'm like, who told them there's no time? Who told them that a million dollars is going to be the thing that changes their life?" So what I want them to focus on is there's better milestones and scoreboards out there than just saying,"I need a million dollars by 26 or else." And what they're really saying is,"I really want to be a homeowner. I really want to have time freedom. I really don't want to work for the man and hope that I can retire one day." That's at the heart of it. And they're just not great at articulating some of that. And you know, I think we are made to work and there is such thing as work that you enjoy doing. And I don't think that we should all retire early at 30 and just sit on the beach all day. I don't think that's what we were made to do. And so I think there's a balance there between this whole kind of fire movement and where everyone needs to retire early and working for the man is evil versus let's find some work that you enjoy doing. Let's put away money for the future and let's enjoy your life while we're at it and still go on vacations and have some nice stuff.- Yeah. Oh, preach. I love work.- You're doing it right now. I imagine you don't have to be doing this at your stage in juncture, you know?- No, it's not volunteer. So you work for Dave Ramsey Organization. One of the things I think Dave can get an unfairly bad rap on is an emphasis on frugality. So you hear Dave talk about rice and beans, beans and rice all the time. And I think that side of his message and your guys' work can get more attention and I think if people say,"Well that's not for me," that's the part that they're talking about is cutting back lifestyle and cutting back expenses. But your work, you really highlight the other side of it, which I want to unpack with you a little, is another way to get better financially and to get in better footing, frankly, is to make more money. And you said you've done that by increasing your influence. So you've been with this one organization for a period of time, I imagine you're not still on a starter salary, you've advanced your career. So part of that ledger, so to speak, is yeah, you need to spend less than you make for sure. But it also helps to make more money. So talk to me about like what does it mean to young people, increasing your influence?- Yeah. Well a lot of people, we hear this and it's a valid complaint when they go,"Hey, wages haven't kept up with inflation and the housing market and all of these things over here." And I'm going, "Well, who said you have to stay at the bottom rung of wages? No one's forcing you to do that, you have opportunity." And you know, 11 years ago when I started at Ramsey, I was an intern and an hourly worker and I got a full-time position and an entry level salary. And I've had six jobs at Ramsey since then, over 11 years. But a lot of people just sort of assume this is my fate. I'm going to make $11 an hour for the rest of my life, there's no room for advancement. And with today's world and the internet, there's no reason that you can't go get the education, even if that's a book. That's what I did. I read a book called HTML and CSS off Amazon and convinced them that I could do email marketing and I could code some emails. And I did that for two and a half years. And I convinced them that I could do some great social media work and I did that for another year. And so if you need to go get some education, go do that. Now don't go $200,000 into student loan debt thinking there's just going to be a magic job on the other side. Be very strategic about it and ask yourself,"Is this the best way?" and "Is it the only way?" And sometimes it's an online certification you can get versus a four-year degree or a second master's degree that's going to be the ticket. But increasing your income is one of the main factors that's going to help you build wealth. And you can still do it. If you make $50,000 a year for the rest of your life, you can still become a millionaire. But it's going to be easier, it's going to happen faster and you're going to have more wealth if you can incrementally increase that income over a period of time. And most young people think, I got to jump ship every three seconds in order to make it. And I'm telling you, as a guy who's been at the same company for 11 years, a sense of commitment to one place can pay dividends in the long run because the relationships you build, the ability to kind of have momentum at one place is better than trying to learn a whole new environment. But for some people they feel stuck. They've been with the same employer for 10 years with no raise. It might be time to jump ship and find a new employer or even a new career field.- Yeah. George, what do you think when you hear young people say that success isn't attainable and that it's just not going to work out for them?- Well I think about the word cynicism and I end the book with a chapter really grappling with this villain and the hero of we have cynicism on one side, we have hope on the other side, hope is cheesy and it's kind of lame and it's hard to stay in that world. And cynicism is the easiest, most fun you can have temporarily to just go on social media and angrily type behind your keyboard about how difficult everything is. And for a long time, I was that guy. I'm a recovering cynic if I'm going to be honest.- Alright.- And that was me at 23 going,"It's everyone else's problem. It's the boomers' fault for ruining the housing market. The guy in the White House needs to fix this. When is student loan forgiveness going to happen? Inflation is killing me. I'll never be able to afford a house. Who can afford a cash car? I have to go get a car payment and buy a $40,000 car just to survive for safety and reliability." It's all of these mental gymnastics that we use and justifications that keep us where we are. And at the end of the day, it's no one else's fault. At the end of the day, we have to realize it's not all your fault, but it's your responsibility. There are external factors. You weren't the only person involved in this crime that caused you to feel this way. It was misguided guidance counselors and well-meaning parents, and some malicious companies out there with really slick marketing causing you to make these mistakes that you still chose to make. And so if we can grapple with all of that and then look in the mirror and go, "That person's the solution," that's when it changes. Every single person on the debt-free stage had to have that moment where they said,"It's not all my fault, but it's my responsibility to take the right next step."- How did you get there? How did you stop being a cynic?- Oh, I think information is a big key. Having that financial literacy and having people speak life over you. I think that's what Dave Ramsey is really great at. What he's great is just breathing hope into your situation. And he just happened to choose money as the vehicle to do that. But I think you need to surround yourself with the right people. For a long time I surrounded myself with people just like me who had the same cynicism, who wanted to just go spend and YOLO and nothing matters. You know, a very fatalistic viewpoint. But when you get around other people and you start changing your inputs and you start listening to "The Ramsey Show" instead of your Instagram feed, all of a sudden you start to believe differently. And when you believe differently, you act differently, and you think differently. All of that, that's the recipe for this thing called hope. And that is the one factor that causes people to build wealth versus people who don't.- Hmm, love that. So you work at Ramsey Solutions. I have to imagine, this is me, someone who's seen the show for a long time. I have to imagine it's pretty incredible to see those debt-free screams on a regular basis. And I know you've done one as well, you and Whitney have done one. So for people that aren't aware of what a debt-free scream is, can you describe what they are and what it's like to see those?- Yes. The debt-free scream started as an accidental primal moment on "The Ramsey Show" way back years and years ago, where this woman was just so excited, she just started yelling on the phone line,"I'm debt free, I'm debt free!" And Dave thought that would be a cool thing to do on the show is people share their journeys,'cause as more and more people called the show and followed Dave's advice, they actually got out of debt. And it was this magic moment and we wanted to inspire other people to relate to their stories to go, "Hey, it's possible for me, too." And so on the show, people travel from all over the world now to visit us at our headquarters in Nashville, Tennessee. We created a whole custom stage with a screen that is now known as the debt-free stage. And all we do is we ask them questions about their journey and their story and what happened and what was that "I've had it" moment that caused them to turn around and decide to do something about it. And we get everyone from young single people to older couples, to single moms, to people who came out of prison and addiction. And there's some of the most inspiring stories of overcoming the odds, building wealth in spite of their economic background and where they've been and the mistakes they've made. And it's one of my favorite parts of the show. And I get to, we have one today. I'll be hosting "The Ramsey Show" with Rachel on the day of this recording and we have a debt-free scream. And I'm so excited to just hear their story. And there's a smile plastered on your face for a few minutes after the fact, because you're just like, I have hope for humanity in this moment that if they can change, we can all change. And that's really all we can hope for.- That's awesome. Well tell Rachel hello, by the way. She was a guest a couple seasons ago and was fantastic.- Oh, I can't beat Rachel. She's the best. We have a great time. We have another show called"Smart Money Happy Hour" that her and I host and it's a blast, if you guys want a little lighter show than "The Ramsey Show," we talk money and pop culture and it's guaranteed to make you laugh.- Yeah, love that. So George, everyone at this point I think has heard of FOMO, the fear of missing out. Tell me what JOMO is.- Yes, I don't know that I've coined the word, but hopefully I've made it more popular. And so FOMO, we all know is the fear of missing out, and that is at the heart of a lot of the younger generations, the fear of missing out on being a homeowner, or going on that trip, or having that thing, or I don't have the other stuff that my family has or my friends have. And so there's this other side of the coin, which is JOMO, the joy of missing out. And that's what I think people have when they follow the baby steps and they're on this debt-free journey, there is a joy of setting a boundary and saying no and having a season of sacrifice and realizing that you're doing what's best for your family because nobody else pays your bills. And so there is a joy knowing that you are running the race set before you in a way that only you can run it. And I think that what that causes people to have is a sense of agency and autonomy over their life that maybe they've never had before because life was just happening to them instead of them happening to life. And so the joy of missing out just comes down to having a smile on your face while you're working that second job and eating that Lean Cuisine when you want to be eating out because you know the freedom that's on the other side.- I love me some JOMO, as an introvert, I experience a lot of joy of missing out on a lot of experiences.- So like when plans cancel, is it just like the biggest endorphin rush ever?- Yes. It's like, oh, that means I have nothing to do. Nothing scheduled.- Your favorite event, nothing.- Yes, nothing, yeah, exactly. So I'm interested, kind of pivot it back to your life a little bit, now that you've transformed yourself financially and you and Whitney have a different life than you had when you started off. What has changed in your life and maybe what's still the same with the two of you?- Hmm, that's a great question. You know, hitting the million dollar net worth milestone is huge, but at the same time, it doesn't change your life. Our lifestyle hasn't increased dramatically. We're not retiring on a sailboat in the Caribbean. Your monthly margin doesn't change that much. And people, sometimes they make fun of me because they go, "Oh my gosh, what an idiot. He paid off a low interest mortgage and he's socking money away in a retirement account that he can't touch till 60." And they think it's unsophisticated. They think it would've been wiser to do 1,000 other things. And again, I have JOMO because I know this is what I'm doing, I'm very confident in my financial plan. And so what has changed for us is our ability to do other things. Our margin has changed, the options have changed. We can eat out more, we can spend more, we can have some nicer things. We've upgraded the cars. We are able to give more and we're able to invest more. But again, none of those things are, on their own, life changing because we know money is sort of this amoral thing. It's just a brick. You can throw it through a window, you can build a hospital with it. It is just a tool. But when you can transform money from being an obstacle to a tool, it changes the trajectory of your whole life. And so while money can't change a person, if you're going to be a broke jerk, you're just going to be a rich jerk when you have money. What I do think changes a person's character is giving. And I believe giving is the most fun you can have with money. And that is the one way to actually increase your joy permanently, is to flex the muscle of giving. And that's something we've been able to do more of now is spontaneously give, have more planned generosity. We have some friends that are doing mission work and we can just give to that monthly, we can increase our tithe to our church and we can help out that person at work who's going through a medical scare or needs that car repair and we can just bless them even anonymously with a check or an envelope of cash and just say,"Hey, hope this helps. I know life's hard right now." That's the kind of stuff that sticks with me. And we got to give $10,000 to three different Waffle Houses around Christmas time. It wasn't my money. So it wasn't like a flex on my part, it was just Ramsey Solutions money that I got to use. And it still sticks with me. The money that I got to give to each server covering the tab of each Waffle House entirely. And the tears running down Shatika's face, single mom, bunch of kids, had been shot in the chest by the kids' dad in the last year. And I said, "Hey, here's an extra $2,000 on top of the 500. I want these kids to have a great Christmas." I mean, all of the employees are hugging her, we're all hugging each other. And that sticks with me way more than the last $2,000 I spent on myself on eating out or buying that thing for me. So I think generosity is the antidote to a lot of the cynicism and hopelessness out there. If we could just all be better givers, we're going to have a better life, we're going to have better communities. But that starts with having the margin to do that, which is the biggest reason of all to get out of debt so that we have more margin to give and be selfless people.- Love that. When you first started talking about spending $10,000 on a Waffle House, my thought was, I've been there, like, how much food do you have to eat?- Oh, it's incredible.- To spend 10,000 bucks.- It's still a beacon of hope for America because you can get a whole meal for like $9. I promise you, we covered the whole tab of Waffle House and I was like, "Guys, how much did we spend on that?" They're like, "It was $130 after tip to cover everyone's tab." So if you want to have some fun and you got 100 bucks to blow, go to a Waffle House and just say, "Hey, I want to cover everyone's tab today and here's a nice tip for you." It'll change their day.- That's incredible. From your chair, I would love to hear what you think of the position most Americans are in today financially and how do you think we got there?- Oof. Well, it seems to be getting bleaker and bleaker, and that's not based on news headlines, that's based on actual research and data and calls into "The Ramsey Show." More and more people are underwater on their cars. They've taken on mortgages that they really can't pay sustainably long term. They are still holding out hope for student loans that are ballooning because of the interest and the tiny payments they're making thanks to some of these income-driven repayment programs. They're racking up more credit card debt than I've ever seen with record high interest rates. And we know based on stats, we're now at, what is it, 1.1 trillion in credit card debt. When I wrote the book, we had just hit one trillion and I thought, "Wow, how could it get worse?" It just keeps getting worse. And we know that people are still spending like crazy. They're trying to calm down the economy and inflation and consumer spending is still just going up and up and up. And we know people are still as broke as ever. And so I think there's some desperation happening out there. Four in 10 people have nothing in savings. One in three people making six figures are living paycheck to paycheck. So there truly is a crisis out there and it's one of the major reasons I wrote the book,"Breaking Free from Broke," it wasn't for broke people, it was for everyone who is feeling broke because of the system that's designed to keep them there and keep them reliant on debt. And so that was the heart of the book. And I have hope every day because of the people that call into the show and share their wins. But I also think we need to increase financial literacy. We need to have everyone really do a reality check with their finances and go,"Hey, if debt wasn't an option, what would we do?" And that's an amazing question to ask ourselves. America wouldn't be in debt if every purchase we made was in the budget and we had the cash for it. That's simple financial planning 101. But a lot of people, and sometimes it's not out of frivolous luxury spending, sometimes it's a scary medical emergency or something happened where they didn't have the money and now they're going into debt. I had a guy message me yesterday, he makes 140k household income between him and his wife. And he's stuck under payday loans because they took out payday loans to cover the kids' college and now he can't get out of this cycle because we know the interest rates on these payday loans are astronomical. And I'm going, "You make $140,000, like how did we get here?" And more and more people are in that spot. It's not an income issue, it's a me issue. It's a spending issue over a period of time that's causing them to feel this way all the while, not investing enough for the future, causing them to have a retirement crisis on the other side.- Yeah. So yeah, let's talk about your book, George. It's fantastic. It's funny, it's a quick read, it's light, but you said it's not a book about money. So tell me, if it's not a book about money, what is it and who is it for? And why'd you write it?- Yeah, that's the secret of the book. I wanted to talk about money so that we could stop talking about money. Money is living, money issues are living in our heads rent free and it's time we start charging rent. It's time we kick that out so we can focus on things that really matter. And it's one of the reasons I opened the book right under the title, there's a verse from Galatians.- Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.- And I'll read it to you, but I'll explain the heart behind that. Because you're like, "This has nothing to do with money. What is this guy spouting off this stuff for?"

So Galatians 5: 30:16

22-23 says,"The Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things." And if you're wondering what the tie is, as I studied the problems that my generation's facing, Millennials, the next one's Gen Z, there's a few keys that I think we'll all relate to. Number one, there's a lack of deep, meaningful relationships. We are scattered, we're digital, we don't see people face to face. We have a hard time connecting on a deep level. There's a lack of fulfillment in our work and our life. It's, work is evil, I don't want to work for the man. There's nothing out there that's going to suit me. And if there is, I can't make money doing it. A lot of myths and lies there. There's a lack of self-confidence. There's a lack of self-esteem. There's a lack of social skills, there's a lack of good leadership out there, even in the career world. You know, we all have that toxic boss. We're addicted to technology and our smartphones and social media and we have more stress and anxiety than ever with more money problems than ever. So then I thought,"Okay, what's the solution to all of that?" Well, I think we need patience and a long-term mindset instead of instant gratification. Got to act more like a Crockpot than a microwave. Be the tortoise, not the hare. We need more love in general in our life. You know, "All you need is love" as the Beatles said. We need job fulfillment, we need more joy, we need more self-confidence, we need better leadership, we need more skillset. And so all of that. It was interesting when I looked at the message version of that verse, it said this, "Things like affection for others, exuberance for life, serenity, we develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things in people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely." To me, that's what we're all after. Like money is just an obstacle keeping us from becoming those kinds of people. You know, when you meet that old person who's in elderly stage of life, they have those things, there's just a peace about them, there's a calmness about them. And that level of conviction and commitment, willing to stick with things, the serenity, we call it financial peace, the exuberance about life, that's joy. Directing energies wisely. All of that to me is like, oh, that's what the Ramsey plan helps you accomplish. It helps you get to that point. Because once you transform your money, what can't you do? Now we can focus on building those relationships. Now we can focus on doing work that we love because we're not desperate for that last paycheck. So that's the heart of that verse at the top of the book because I wanted that to be a stamp right there going, this is what we're after. Don't get it twisted. Getting out of debt is great. Building wealth is great, but at the end of the day, if you don't have that kind of character, you don't have a high quality of life.- Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. So normally when I read somebody's book and they come on the show, I have to at least get into chapter one before I have my first note and first question for you is literally the first page. And I wanted to ask you about that. So thanks for bringing up, you're an overachiever, George.- Happy to unpack. I don't think I've talked about it at that length, so I appreciate it. You allowing me the space to do that. Because I think it's probably the most interesting part of this whole thing is that transformation to becoming those kinds of people, I think makes you now go,"Okay, how is money going to help me get there?" Now I'm listening.- Yeah. You know, it's an interesting thing about our show and I see it in your work, and I see it in other people's work now more than I ever have before. But the reason why we started this show was a couple things. Number one was to put good information out in the world. Number two was to dispel the myth that we're all in this thing alone. And you know, we will talk about sex, we'll talk about money, we'll talk about politics, we'll certainly talk about all those things in social media, but we still don't talk about money. And so when you said, this isn't a book about money, that really hit home for me because this is a financial show. This is a personal financial show, but it's only kind of about money. It's about interrelations or interpersonal skills. It's about our histories with money, it's about faith in money. It's about what we really want to do on this Earth. And so there's so much more to money, which I appreciate you hitting on in this book. And just thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that kind of the reason behind it too.- Absolutely, you're right. As we've done this work at Ramsey now, we've brought on new personalities. So we've brought on Ken Coleman to talk about work and purpose and that fulfillment in your job. We've brought on Dr. John Deloney to talk about anxiety and relationships and boundaries. And if you listen to one hour of "The Ramsey Show," I'm sure it'll happen today, most of the calls, they're about 10% about money. It's 90% about families, relational drama, boundaries issues, or lack thereof. It's about that toxic job that they hate. How do I find the work that I love doing and make money doing it? And so money touches all of these things, but it's really not at the root of the issue. And so we've learned that over time. And you know, really what we do on "The Ramsey Show," we don't really dole out financial advice, generally it's you have to have that hard conversation with your boss and with your mom. And you've got to set that boundary. You've got to make the hard choices to take the right next step. And money just touches all of that. But man, it is wild to me, if you listen to the show, how much of it is not about money and it's tough to grapple with. And there's no easy answer of,"Well, just sell the car." Sometimes that's the answer. But a lot of times it comes down to there's about to be a relationship that goes south because of what you have to go tell them. And so that's the hardest part of the show, is grappling in five minutes with someone with one of the hardest life decisions they have to make.- Yeah. Awesome. George, this is fantastic. If people want to learn more about you, pick up your book, where do they go?- You can always go to ramseysolutions.com. The book's available in that store. It's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, and wherever you get books as well. And I encourage everyone to pick up a copy, read it, gift it to that young person in your life, that older person in your life who needs hope. It's been amazing to see. I thought I was writing this book to be kind of a modern day version of "The Total Money Makeover" with a heavy bent on kind of a thesis on the debt crisis in America, but it's really cool to see 17 year olds reach out and say, "Thank you for helping me avoid mistakes. This is like the preventative medicine that's going to help me build wealth." To the 53-year-old who's in tears going,"Thank you for telling me it's not too late and giving me hope that I can still turn the ship around." And since you're in the banking world, can I read you the quote I got from a banker as we wrap?- Please. Absolutely.- This is one of my favorites, because I knew, I say in the book, I'm going to offend a lot of people here. I understand you have very different thoughts on money and especially those in the financial industry. Dave has not, you know, he's not exactly making a lot of friends in the financial industry because of the things that he rails against and being so anti-debt. And I got this message from a banker named Chris. He said, "I've got to tell you, as a commercial banker, I despise everything you've preached about credit and debt in the book so far." He said, "I'm up to vehicle loans in the audio book, but I cannot disagree with any of it. As someone with over a million dollars of debt," he's highly compensated, not struggling, he wants me to let me know. He said, "You're changing the way I think, might not be the best thing for my career, however, keep up the great work." Later on, he messages me the other day saying,"I just paid off $5,600 of 0% debt. I freed up 550 bucks per month. We're now going to start paying off the car and start the remaining loan payments and cut those in half." And so it's really cool to see someone who's in this industry who knows the ins and outs of the financial world better than I do go, you know what? Freedom is still the thing we need to solve for, regardless of the math and the 0%. We all just want freedom in our life. And debt has a weight that I think we can all remove if we're willing to make these short-term sacrifices.- Love it. You're performing miracles at this point.- If I can change a banker's mind, I think anything is possible. So thank you Adam for being one of the good guys out here teaching people about money and doing great work. I mean, of course not everyone can go join your bank and become customers, but it's good to know that it's easy to just go,"Well, banks are evil," and go, no, there's good people like Adam out there and there's great community banks out there helping people manage their money well. And so thank you for being one of the good guys that we can trust out there.- I appreciate that, George, thanks so much for joining me.- Thank you, have a good one.- All right.[upbeat music] I hope you found this helpful. If you did, please subscribe and share with your family or friends. If you have a topic you want us to cover in future episodes, send us a note through our website. And if you're at the point where you want an expert opinion on your finances, reach out and we'd be happy to start a conversation. And remember, any comments, insights, or strategies discussed on this podcast are intended to be general in nature and therefore may not be suitable for you and your situation, whatever that may be. Before acting on anything we discuss, please consult with your attorney, CPA, and/or your financial advisor.