In this special edition podcast we talk to Erik D. Olson from the NRDC. He talks about PFAS and the impact of toxic 'forever chemicals' on the environment, on products and packaging that are all in general use. Erik highlights the research evidence that demonstrates links to cancers and other serious health concerns. We consider what this means for a variety of products including school uniforms, toys, astroturf and food packaging and explore ways in which teachers, parents and pupils can take positive steps to help change happen.
Dedicated to teachers, support staff, key workers and our wonderful NHS staff
(Credits: Music by Scott Buckley - www.scottbuckley.com.au; Greta Thunberg c/o https://www.fridaysforfuture.org/greta-speeches)
In this special edition podcast we talk to Erik D. Olson from the NRDC. He talks about PFAS and the impact of toxic 'forever chemicals' on the environment, on products and packaging that are all in general use. Erik highlights the research evidence that demonstrates links to cancers and other serious health concerns. We consider what this means for a variety of products including school uniforms, toys, astroturf and food packaging and explore ways in which teachers, parents and pupils can take positive steps to help change happen.
Dedicated to teachers, support staff, key workers and our wonderful NHS staff
(Credits: Music by Scott Buckley - www.scottbuckley.com.au; Greta Thunberg c/o https://www.fridaysforfuture.org/greta-speeches)
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high toxicity, very mobile and lasting virtually forever make them a bad combination. And they found links to numerous health effects, including cancer of the kidneys and a series of other health effects. And the concern is, of course, that now that this stuff is being found in the environment all over the United States and all over the world, a lot of people are being exposed...
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Is there a nything that we could do to avoid a surge in the future. Is there anything we could do now?
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Hello and welcome to the more teacher talk podcast Today I'll be speaking to Eric D. Olson. Eric is the senior strategic director for health and food, Healthy people and Thriving Communities. He has more than 30 years of experience working at the intersection of public policy and consumer advocacy, and currently directs the N. R. D. C's advocacy initiatives on health, food and agriculture, including campaigns on drinking water protection, toxins in products and the environment, pesticides, food additives, antibiotics and efforts related to agriculture and climate change.
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His work has led to the first major overhaul of the U. S. Food and Drug Administration's food safety laws in more than 70 years, as well as revamped laws protecting the nation's drinking water and food supply from pesticides.
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Welcome, Eric
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Well, thank you very much for having me. My name is Eric Olson, and I oversee the strategy on health and food at the Natural Resources Defense Council. I'm based in Washington, D. C. I've worked in this field of health and public health and environmental policy for about 35 years, So I'm focused primarily as a nonprofit advocate on trying to improve public health across the United States, and we do have some international work as well.
spk_1: 2:37
And how did you become interested in this field of work?
spk_0: 2:40
Well, actually, I got interested when I was a child. I actually grew up in Chicago, Illinois. It was a big city. I was right on Lake Michigan, and I remember from back in the days when I was a young man the air pollution being in Chicago and actually dust from coal burning, settling on our apartments all over the place, my mother having to clean up every day and wondering whether that was really healthy for a soul to be breathing and seeing a massive fish kill on Lake Michigan shore that was from the environment being out of balance. So that got me interested and I've really been interested in the connections between our environment and public health for many, many years.
spk_1: 3:28
This episode is specifically about P FAS, the audience being parents and teachers and some of our listeners may not know much about these. I wondered if you could tell us the story off them from beginning to now?
spk_0: 3:42
Sure. Well, PFAS . It's a very long word. It's per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances. Everybody calls them PFAS. These chemicals are man made. They are used in making Teflon pans, for example, and non stick pans. They're used in some firefighting foam that's widely used in some airports and they're used in many other ways for non-stick surfaces. They've been used for carpets and for couches and so on to make them less susceptible to staining. And they unfortunately, have three common elements that make them problematic:
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One is that they are toxic, in very, very low concentrations in the parts per trillion levels in our drinking water. They pose health threats.
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Secondly, they're widely called Forever chemicals or forever toxics because they have a bond in them that is virtually impossible for Mother Nature to break down. So they last for decades, maybe centuries, in the environment.
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And thirdly, they move very quickly through the environment. So once they get into water, for example, into the ground water, they spread quickly into surface water into the air that can spread quickly. So those three effects, high toxicity, very mobile and lasting virtually forever make them a bad combination.
spk_1: 5:22
And in terms of history, of where they first came from, and some others like PFOAS? What's the connection and you know, how is that related?
spk_0: 5:34
Yes, So PFOA, PFAS . It's actually a very large family of toxic chemicals. There are by last accounts, almost 8000 of these, according to the most recent EPA data that I saw. So there are thousands of these chemicals. A couple of them were the early entries P F O A and P F O S. That's just two out of the roughly 8000 of the of these big family of toxic chemicals forever chemicals. They were widely used to make some of the products I was mentioning before, like Teflon and some of the firefighting foams and some of the Scotchgard and other chemicals that are creating stain resistance in fabrics and are widely used in industry across the board. So they've been around for decades. Those two that I mentioned have been phased out in the United States and in many other countries. P. F O. A and P. F. O. S are not being made anymore, but the problem is they are a little bit like shark's teeth: you break off one, and there are a bunch of them right behind that are ready to bight you, so eliminating one or two of them really hasn't done very much because we still have thousands of them in reserve
spk_1: 6:59
You mentioned PFAS being known as forever chemicals. Can you tell us a bit more about that?
spk_0: 7:05
Sure. Well, so the reason these are so hard to break down in nature is they have what's called a carbon–fluorine bond bond. This is a bond that doesn't exist, a chemical bond that doesn't exist in nature. And it's virtually impossible for bugs, bacteria and so on to break it down. It takes a long time for it to break down in the environment and her body's so because of that property, they tend to stick around a long time. They could be. Once we consume them, they can build up in our bodies and last in our bodies for years. Across the world, about 99% of the world has p fasten their bloodstreams air in their body tissues. Um, so we're all carrying this stuff around most of us from the time we're born. Um, and they don't eliminate themselves so that it's not like if you stop consuming them today, you're gonna be free of them in a week or a month. Three. Here your levels will very gradually go down, which is why we call them Forever chemicals.
spk_1: 8:12
So the impact, then off something that doesn't really go away, What's the impact on the environment and what and why is it really a problem for us?
spk_0: 8:21
Well, just because they are they don't go away doesn't necessarily mean they're a problem. The recent her problem is because there's so toxic at very low doses. So our concern is that a lot of studies have now been done. One of the biggest ones was done in the United States. It's called the C eight study, um, and see eight stands for the number of carbon Seuin in the P Foe and P False. And that study looked at over 60,000 people in the state of West Virginia here in the U. S. And these folks had all been exposed to elevated levels of these chemicals in their drinking water, and they found links to numerous health effects, including cancer of the testicles, cancer, the kidneys and a series of other health effects. And the concern is, of course, that now that this stuff is being found in the environment all over the United States and all over the world. A lot of people are being exposed to it through their drinking water through consumer products, through their food through numerous other avenues. And of the concern is some of these health effects ranging from cancer to some impacts on the kidneys, impacts on the fire and and other effects that can occur in pregnant women, for example.
spk_1: 9:42
So so what would be the most common ways for these to get into the environment?
spk_0: 9:46
Well, they get into the environment of right of ways. One of the most widespread is they have been used for a long time in these sprays that are used to suppress chemical fires or, um, petroleum fires. So they have been in widespread use in airports, for example, and in defense installations. So all these big air force installations and so on, and it's not really so much that they're used on the fires. That's the big problem. The problem is that they have been very widely used in training exercises, and they're just sprayed all over the place and left to sink into the ground water or wash off into surface water. And so we've seen this in the U. S. Just last week, our Defense Department announced that, um, over 650 sites across the United States may be contaminated with these chemicals Defense Department sites. So a lot of that is from the use to suppress for fires air to do practice. And now Heathrow and a lot of other airports across the world have switched out of thes p fasts firefighting foams. Unfortunately, here in the United States, we've been very slow in replacing those p fasts. And in fact, some federal rules have required them for a long time. So we're just now starting to phase them out. We hope from those uses Thea. Other big uses of them include a lot of industrial uses, for I'm reducing stains of textiles. So they've been widely used in things like clothing and footwear in carpeting and rugs, innumerable other types of uses. So that gets into you when you use that product or the factory's themselves that are using, that often will discharge it into the air or into the water. And also that, of course, the chemical companies that are making it will often discharge it into the air of the water.
spk_1: 11:54
Okay, so we've got a combination of the production manufacturer, the production of manufacturer, the chemicals themselves. There was the products on things like firefighting and the training. So so some of these things you think, perhaps our alternatives on. But there's a few, which is, as a father, a cz, a teacher or certainly is apparent that I'm particularly concerned about or thinking, you know, is this something I should be trying to find out more about? One you mentioned about protecting clothing. So school uniforms, for example, is that something that's an issue still, for for people, generally,
spk_0: 12:34
it very well can be an issue. So if a piece that piece of clothing is stain resistant, able to stain resistant or his water resistant or waterproof, there's a very good chance it is treated with pee fast. And that would be something you pretty much would have to ask the manufacturer of the clothing, whether they have treated it with pee fast or not. But if it's labeled as staying resistant or as water resistant or waterproof, pretty good chance that it's in there.
spk_1: 13:11
That's that's really interesting, because I gotta say the number of Children like, you know, I can picture her mind who are chewing their stain resistant clothing, you know, like knowing it away. You know, I just wondered if that's if there's something I should be concerned about and look into,
spk_0: 13:27
I was going to say Yes, I would be concerned. You know, I don't want to panic people. Um, the you know, the amount that a child is likely to get from just wearing that clothing is likely to be unless the clothing has started. T o D Creed. That's when you start to worry. So it's not like they're going to be poisoned tomorrow. Um, that the way that this stuff is used is it's usually put into the chemicals will start binding to each other. So it's, um the theory, at least is that when it's fairly new and it's not be created, there's gonna be fairly, well exposure. The problem is when when it gets to be older and it starts falling apart, whether that starts to release some of the chemicals and of course, the manufacturing of those clothes on and the application of that chemical can contaminate the community.
spk_1: 14:24
Andi, I suppose the thing with that is that there seems to be alternatives.
spk_0: 14:28
There are alternatives, Believe it or not, When we were growing up, we didn't really think these materials sprayed onto our clothing. There really is no need for them. Frankly, Um, but I guess, you know, it's it's a little bit of a convenience, and unfortunately, it started to be wide. We used before. We've, I think, before the public fully understood the extent of the problem.
spk_1: 14:55
Okay, How about toys, then? Because toys seems like an obvious thing that you'd want to be quite indestructible and useful. Is that something that should be a concern?
spk_0: 15:05
Can If If the toy includes some fabric that has been treated to make it stain resistant or waterproof, it very well may have PIF s on it. Um, I haven't heard of things like wooden or plastic toys being treated with a piece of ass. But, you know, to be honest, a lot of chemical out of these products have never been tested. It really seems unlikely the main uses of P fasts and consumer products air for staying or water resistance or to make surfaces not stick together s so it's relatively unlikely unless it's a treated fabric.
spk_1: 15:52
Okay, reading around the topic. Astro turf on Robert Crumb. That seemed to, you know, I seem to come across that a few times again. Is that is that something that the research is giving us more information about now?
spk_0: 16:06
Yeah, well, we've known for a while that some of the crumb rubber, um, and Astro turf fields. It's not necessarily just pee fast, but there are a variety of chemicals that are sometimes released, especially in hot weather. Um, from crumb rubber, for example. So it's, you know, P fats may be an issue, but I think there's some other chemicals that have been a concern. So I know some here in the U. S. Some school districts have decided to move away from some of the crumb rubber because of toxic chemicals that could be released when it gets heated up in very hot weather.
spk_1: 16:44
I've got a small section of things I was really keen to find out more about. What about food packaging?
spk_0: 16:48
Yeah, well, that's a pretty significant issue here. So if you get your take away that you know your Chinese food or perhaps your pizza box, et cetera, um, if it's treated to not allow Greece to penetrate. It's very likely to have p fasten it. So a lot of cardboard, Um, that doesn't allow that's crease resistant or grease proof that's going to be sprayed with pee faster, have p. Fasten it. So, yes, fruit packaging definitely has it. We actually succeeded in getting the U. S Food and Drug Administration to ban certain of the long chain pee fast seas of the like the sea eights and the long chain PIF as from packaging here. But unfortunately, there's still thousands of other P fast that still could be used. So they're a couple states in the US that are now moving towards a ban on P fastened food packaging. And one of that's because we like to be able to composter food packaging and you cannot compost it. If there's a lot of P, fasten it, because then you're gonna be growing plants, presumably or food in P Fez contaminated compost. So can we send us? We're phasing out from all the compostable fruit packaging pee fast, but that's not been achieved yet.
spk_1: 18:14
I'm fascinated to find out what the current U. K situation is certainly post Brexit, and if there's been any change or, you know, I just don't know if I need to. I'm the pupil in this this edition of the podcast, that for sure the other thing that I was wanting to explore was about the production and consumption of toxic chemicals, which, as far as I understood, it has been relatively consistent from 2040 present day on, Obviously correct me. If any of this is wrong on the only time that there was a significant reduction was during the economic economic crash in 2008. And then the following two years after that, when there was a surge after that which took levels to them back to run about where they were. Does that sound right? Does that sound like a first statement?
spk_0: 19:01
Ah, that sounds roughly right. I can't say that I've taken a careful look year by year at the production, but we do know that other the number of pounds of some of the chemicals may be somewhat study. What the problem is is that we now understand that some of these chemicals, like pee fast, even at low poundage, can present a really significant health risks because they're way more toxic even at low doses than we used to think so PIF as being a great example of that.
spk_1: 19:34
If the current's pandemic, which obviously is the main thing on everyone's minds right now and this is, you know, there's anything more serious if I had to to just appear on the corner Onda assume there'll be some kindof reduction in the production and consumption at this stage. Is there anything that we could do to avoid a surge in the future? Is there anything we could do now?
spk_0: 20:03
Well, I wish I could say it would be easy for us to turn off the spigot for the more toxic chemicals that we have been producing for years. Um, I think that would require pretty significant policy changes in a change of heart in the chemical industry, which it's not easy to come by. Unfortunately, in the U. S. We just had the federal Environmental Protection Agency here under the current administration announced that they were suspending most enforcement of they're monitoring and reporting requirements during the covert epidemic. Um, and that we are concerned is going to mean that we could see a surgeon pollution from some of the facilities that are not going to feel that they have to continue tracking their patients. So I don't know. I mean, I'd like to think that maybe this has taught us some lessons about prevention and investment and public health before we get caught with big problems. But I haven't seen evidence of that yet.
spk_1: 21:11
If you ah, um, if you're going to appeal, then or or give some urgent actions that people could take, you know beyond that, what things would you recommend?
spk_0: 21:21
Well, I think the main thing is we can't really shop our way out of this problem. You can certainly reduce your exposure by not buying, for example, pans that are treated with nonstick chemicals and instead using cast iron and not purchasing clothing that is waterproof using P fasts. But on their
spk_1: 21:45
list of those on the story to ensure there's some lists of those you know pants that don't use P fastened. Yes,
spk_0: 21:50
there are. There are seamless out there. Just be aware that some companies advertise that their P foe of free, but they use some of the other 7998 p fast eso you want P fast free P f a s free. But, yes, there are some lists out there that people can use thio identify products. The thing that really is going to solve this problem is policy change. And that means really our government's phasing out the most dangerous uses, including these uses in airports and firefighting foam. There are other safe alternatives and facing out these other dangerous uses that air causing widespread exposure.
spk_1: 22:32
Okay, the origin of this podcast waas the thought that the sustainable development goals by 2030 there's that hope that we can achieve all of them and gold 12 about responsible production consumption. It was fascinating to meet learned that there were so few educators in the UK who had used that as a focus for their collaborative work or international project work or anything like that. So if this was a point where we could look at trying to achieve goal 12 what he messes could you give to teachers and parents?
spk_0: 23:07
I think there really is a lot of hope out there because a lot of younger people are identifying what we call green chemistry as a new, advanced way to be thinking about how to protect our environment. How to protect her health. So some chemistry departments across the United States and across the world are moving in the direction of green chemistry. That basically means before you start using a chemical, you try to make sure that it's not toxic. You try to make sure it's it's not dangerous to the environment to public health, and that is a new movement. And I would encourage teachers to think about how to integrate some green chemistry principles into addressing basic everyday problems. Is there a way that we could avoid it using toxic chemicals, owner school uniforms or in our food packaging? What's an alternative to doing that? There are some ways that we usedto avoid people being exposed these toxic chemicals. How can we do that in the future? Those air riel world problems and I think young, innovative minds can solve these problems without turning
spk_1: 24:23
to toxic chemicals. Absolutely. It's been such an honor to speak to you today, and I know that you're really busy. So please know that I do appreciate it and teachers and parents, when they hear the things that you have to share, I'm sure that that appreciate it, too.
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very good. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been my
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pleasure. That was Eric D. Olson from the end Our D. C. If you'd like to find out more, you can visit the website at www dot nrdc dot or GE. If you'd like to learn more about P. Fass, do visit the federal website at www dot p fast free dot org's dot UK. You can explore the sustainable development goals at www dot u n dot org's. I'll share some links to the green chemistry information for educators, some bio mimicry resources as well. I hope you enjoyed listening. We'd really appreciate your feedback and you can get in touch with us through Twitter at Maur Teacher Talk or visit our website www dot more teacher talk dot com Things. Episode was recorded at the time of the Global Crone Virus Pandemic and is dedicated to all the teachers, support staff, key workers and N hs staff who are doing amazing work for us all. Thank you for listening