This is episode 285,
Speaker 2:nine of the 200 churches podcast and in my environment I cannot let that happen and where could that happen in my environment? Maybe where is it happening, God forbid, in my environment that the week, whether they're women or their kids or their, they're economically or educationally deprived, where is it that the weak are being exploited or stepped on or subjugated in my world?
Speaker 3:Welcome to the 200 churches podcast. We're passionate about providing ministry encouragement to pastors of small churches. We release a brand new episode every Wednesday to do just that for you. All of our small church pastor friends. Now, here are two guys who are definitely better together. Friends, pastors, and podcast partners. Jeff and Johnny. This is the 200 churches podcast.
Speaker 2:My name is Jonny Craig and I am sitting here in my opiate and luxurious office with the man fresh from vacation. Oh, am I ever fresh? Johnny? This is Jeff. Katie. Thank you. Good to be with you, Johnny, and good to be hearing into your office through my iphone. Here it is. You could see one bookshelf and a Millennium Falcon picture. Yeah.
Speaker 1:See the back of whatever room I'm in. This is, I call it the tribe room. You can. You can cut it up into three little rooms and I'm in the last little room. I have no idea what it's used for, but I'm as far away from everybody she can get. It looks like nice facilities from what I can see. Jeff. No stains on the ceiling tiles. That's good. No, there are no stains on the ceiling tiles. So Johnny, last week you were on live with. I don't remember her name. Pam. Pam Dykstra. Pam Dykstra. Yeah. We got a lot of good feedback from that. Even our district superintendent gave some props to that and said, boy, it'd be great to have that for a retreat, a pastors retreat. Talk about crucial conversations. Absolutely. Sure.
Speaker 4:Well, you heard it last week. She's, she's incredible. She knows her stuff and I am. I, uh, I hope that at least people are considering getting that for if they have a staff, if you're a district superintendent or a Senate leader or whatever they call it in your neck of the woods, I hope that, you know, you, you could hear Pam and think we might be able to use something like that and get a hold of vital smarts and yeah, request Pam. But I can't promise anything
Speaker 1:that's for our, for our Church of God friends. I think their bishops, bishops bishop my ships. Yeah, there you go. So last week Johnny, I was walking the Erie Canal Path and Spencer Port New York and just really enjoying it. It's, it has been for the last 20 years. My thing to do when we go back to visit our families, my brother in law, sister in law lived there for 20 years. Every summer I go back and I walked the canal path and you know, for as long as he had been podcasts, that's what I do. That I listened to them when I'm. And last week, so cool. I got to listen to our podcast. My voice was not on it anywhere and it was a 10 plus and I really enjoyed it. Johnny, you were, um, you were, were you too transparent last week? I mean, you better keep your job. I don't know if anybody's going to hire you after listening to that. She was in the room. I couldn't hide it from her. I mean she was sitting right there when it went down. So she's one of your elders? Yeah. Well, you know, I'll say that's something that I like about this church. That's something that I like about the staff that I'm on and the elders that we have is like, people want me to be me. I mean, I said to Suzanne pretty early on here, um, you know, I have a lot of thoughts but I'm kinda nervous to share them. And she said, you know, we hired you because we like you, right. I hired you because we want you to be here. And I have just felt this freedom to be myself and to not. I mean obviously within reason, within reason, but I, you know, to share like, yeah, I struggled just like everybody else. Maybe I was too transparent though. Whoa. No. So there are parts of you that aren't within reason said, well, you know, I thought I thought it was good actually. I was very proud of you for being so open and honest and allowing all of us to peak into. Because the truth is we could all be the same way. We've all, if we're honest, if we were honest, we've all got issues and problems and you know, we, we would have to share them if we were doing a podcast about the very thing we just fell down and skinned our knees about. You'd probably be honest about yourself. You know what I mean? We can do a lying. That's exactly right. We can't be like, oh man. So Johnny, this week you and I both listened to the podcast, we talk about a lot, the theology on mission podcast. Speaking of Lancaster, we are speaking of podcasts and we heard Jeff holsclaw throughout saying he had this. It was like it was like fist anyone to get to it, but he had this big announcement, this big announcement. Right? Finally at the end, he drops it that he's gonna they're going to maybe do what we've done. They're going to be in different locations. I think unsolicited, we should send them advice about how to make this happen. Absolutely. I mean, we finally, after what, 10, 15 months apart, we finally figured it out all the time. Let's just save them the time we could. It would be very easy for them, especially the way that they do their podcast. It would be easier for them to do it. Like we're doing it right now. Absolutely no problem. I might as well be across the desk from each other. Yeah. So they talked however they talked about in the past episode of their podcast, uh, the situation at Willow Creek community church and with the global leadership summit and everything that happened there last week. I mean, we've got issues at our church. You've got issues at your church, right? We all have issues that our churches and all of a sudden you could almost say, well, hey, at least we're not willow creek right now. Right. You know, that's, they're really, really going through it. And they're in a situation. Yeah. So as Johnny I said to you, I said, hey, let's talk about that this week, not so that we can be, uh, you know, our token, hey, let's talk about Willow Creek because they're going through disaster, but because that's what we're thinking about right now as pastors and my friend rob and we were just texting together today. Me and you and rob, we have this group chat group texts that we do and this has been going on for a couple of years I suppose. And in rob, honestly key and I had been conversing on this since all this really came out in April. He's heartbroken. I mean, he, he has followed bill hybels and willow. Uh, the way I followed him, especially in my early years. A Rick Warren, what's his name? Rick Warren is slick rick, Slick Rick, Rick Warren, and Saddleback, you know, and, and his, he's the host of the summit, isn't he? I mean, he's been on now this year. He did not host it. That's the thing, man, he's been a host site for, I don't know, five, six, seven years. And he's the one that we did the, we did a podcast interview, uh, with her friend who had the first Roman Catholic venue for the leadership summit. So this is really, you know, it's, it's rocked his world and uh, I think as a pastor it rocks all of our worlds and in the past week or two as more has come out and as the elders that have a stated their resignation, you know, to go in waves through the end of the calendar year and the, the two senior pastors there have stepped away. I mean, we're all learning a lesson here in leadership and I think we could allow as pastors, we could allow it to rock our world in a positive way or in a negative way. Sure. And I think there's two different ways to look at it, but I've said a little bit here. So why don't you pick up from here whatever you're thinking about it. Our conversation in
Speaker 4:initially jeff was, you texted me yesterday and you said, did you listen to the theology emission podcast? Which of course they're dropping a summer episode on me. I was the first thing I'm doing is listening to the episode. Uh, and so you said then, then your second statement was the, you would listen to it and you had a little bit different take than David Fitch, which, hey, gird your loins man. Because David Fitch had some hot takes on and he was passionate. So to have a different take is fine, but you better come ready. Um, and uh, and, and I said really? Because I felt like he was pretty, he was pretty on it and a lot of ways. Now, let me say before we even get into the meat of our disagreement, and I don't even know what the disagreement is yet, but until we get into that, I will say this, I have spent the last few weeks thinking about the Willow Creek, the bill hybels situation, um, and worrying about my own leadership bent. Okay. Because my leadership bent is to exert the power of my personality on a situation. Uh, I tend to think that I have the right way and that we, if we could, and I said some of this with Pam last week, right? If we could get, if we could all get on board with my way, it'd be fine. You know what I mean? And it sounds like bill was that way a little bit and uh, then the culture of the church becomes that way. If it works, right? If it works, quote unquote, if it works quote unquote, and you see numerical success, then it's okay to act like that. No, I'm not. I'm not concerned about the things that, that lead to for bill hybels. Um, you know, in my own life. But you know, as David Fish says on their episode, How many years can you be told that you are the man, you are the man, you are the man, you are right. It's your vision, you're the man, you're untouchable before you start to believe that yourself, before you start to drink your own Koolaid, and then you start to make decisions that are not in line with anybody you thought you would ever be. So today I can tell you I'm not worried about doing those things, uh, in my office, but you know, 20 years down the road, if I was at that status and our had had my way and everybody looked at me in that way, what, what could my abuses of power look like? If not, you know, harassment if not inappropriateness, if not all. And I'm not underplaying it, okay? But if not, these things, I would have different abuses of power. I guarantee it. And so for me, this hits home, all this to say for me, this hits home because I see in myself a lot of the way bill hybels led, I think, and I'm kind of working through what it means to be a leader who shares and a leader who submits and mutual submission. So when I heard David Fitch talking and everybody should go listen to this podcast so that you know, they know when I heard him talking this week, yes, I heard, I thought this is what I need because I buy. My nature will not act in those ways. Well, I will not submit by nature, I will overpower by nature and I need to learn to submit. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:What I like about your approach to it is the first thing you said was when you saw what was going on and when you looked at what is going on with bill hybels, you said, what about me? I'm concerned about me. And I think that's exactly the approach we need to take to this first primary. We have to look at ourselves and say, hey, we're no different than bill, right? Our church is no different than willow. I mean we're all, we're all the in the boat of ministry together in any of us can fall a fall to any temptation at any given time, so to say what about me and to begin to be introspective and ask yourself what is, what is it about my life that is helping me to go in the right direction? Because for every, for every church that is struggling with what they're struggling with and for, for every pastor who's struggling with what bill has been struggling with, there is now I just said, you know, we're all, we're all like that, but however there is, there's a hundred or 200 or 500 other churches that are doing well, that are, that have the heart of Jesus that have a servant leadership. They might be in a situation where there's a lead pastor, but what does that lead pastor do with his position? Does he wield it as a lead pastor or as a senior pastor or does he use it to serve the church and love and to serve the staff in love?
Speaker 4:You know what's interesting, we were, we always strive to say men and women, he and she, you're saying he and I actually think it's more appropriate because this, this does sometimes feel like a man's issue. I mean, and this is one thing that David Fitch gets to in the episode, is to say the hierarchy system is a patriarchy system, right? Like the hierarchy system is a patriarchy system where we, and that's what the problem with the willow structure as it invited women into a patriarchal system. It didn't. It didn't say let's be mutually submissive toward each other's gifts in each other's styles. It said this is the structure and it was hierarchical and patriarchal and it said, now fit into this and that scene as empowering women, but I think David's a comment was to empower women, is to let them come and bring the fullness of who they are and their giftedness and not ask them to fit within a system like that. Now everybody's different. There's going to be women who fit well into systems of hierarchy and women who don't. There's gonna be men who do and men who don't. I mean, Jeff, you and I lead very differently. I think that's part of our disagreement is that I see in bill, hi, I see myself a little bit in bill hybels in the way that he's a overpower, but you don't have. You are like, you're a better person than me. You have to do a more submissive leader to do that. Even being part of this,
Speaker 1:but even joking, that's really not true. I mean I'm not. I'm different, not better and when I look at bill, when I look at bill, I say to myself, Oh dear God, if bill hybels can can fall prey to these things, I can. Do you know, if he could. Now again, he's. He's at the pinnacle of success in Career Ministry and that has got to do something and I don't think there should be the only people that can actually be of bill hybels or those who walk in his shoes at the pinnacle of success in Career Ministry because for those of us who aren't there, we have no idea what the pressures are and what it does. To your mind, if this is part of what fits was saying, the very system that sets a men up over women and that sets a leader up over others, followed the man and we've seen this in how many churches that their, their lead and they're driven by a strong d in the disc, right? A strong dominant leader. That when something happens to that strong, dominant leader, the organization tends to crumble. Now, I hope, I hope it will tell. Time will tell. It seems as though they're, they're moving in a more positive direction right now and there's some humility and there's some repentance and there's some movement. And uh, there's gonna be a journey. It's going to be a journey. It's going to be a journey of discovery of, of who we are when bill hybels isn't the pastor, right? You know, and, and maybe they take the best of what he taught them from about Jesus. And they become. Somebody said one of their, one of their, uh, uh, ca congregation said on to one of the newspaper reporters, you know, we, we've never, we've never had a cross on our building because we've not wanted to look like a church. Maybe now's the time to put the cross in the building and to exalt Jesus and nobody and nothing else. And so they're, they're on this journey. But I think that as pastors and as churches and as boards of elders, uh, we, we have a lot to learn from this. We have very little to criticize. We have a lot to critique, we have a lot to learn and we have a lot of humility in which to learn it.
Speaker 4:I'm going to, I'm going to step all over myself here, Jeff. I don't even want to imagine this coming out in 20 years in being misinterpreted. I'm going to be as careful as I can. There are layers here. Um, we're talking about leadership. We're talking about leadership and structure. Um, I don't want to use that conversation to downplay. I think we have absolutely have to be critical of bill hybels for the things that he and Adam was going to say, the things that he has done. I mean he's still in denial mode, which I think is also deserving of criticism, but the eye, if you've read the articles, if you've read the blogs, I mean there's emotional and psychological and spiritual suffering that has been brought upon women that were groomed and that we're, uh, yeah, and, and, and we want to parse out intentions and I, I just don't know that we need, if we can do any of that, I think it has fairly full throated. Like we believe that. I mean we believe these women and we are in staunch like
Speaker 1:opposition to what happened and it's not good and there's no excuse like period, end of sentence. No semi-colon. What it means. So I think that we have a lot to learn. Yes. Part of the. We have a lot to learn. So when I say to be critical of him, I'm saying to look at him as a pastor and say, man, what a terrible pastor he is. I'm such a bad, I would never, I elevate yourself to that, his shortcomings. So that was my interpretation of me saying to critique but not be critical. However, however, when you see people that are oppressed and persecuted and used, right, and who are overpowered with somebody who's got more power, who are disrespected, uh, this, this is where the culture of the world is right inside of the church. And this, the Patriot, the, the worst of patriarchy. And we should probably define patriarchy, right? Uh, because there are absolutely pastors out there who are saying, well, it's the Patriarchs were good, right? Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. The patriarchs were good. And isn't that patriarchy? Patriarchy. We're a mixed bag too. Okay, that's true. And therein lies Patriarchy where you have a male domination in the culture that subjugates and dominates and suppresses women and girls. Females were. Men are the leaders and women are subjugated and women are oppressed and stepped on and used as the worst. That's the worst of patriarchy. And I'm not sure what the best is. You know that the women don't have to do all the work. Maybe that's the best, but, but, but yet, so that's a, the patriarchal side of Wca, a global leadership summit. I don't know. I see, I know. This is why I don't think there's a one size fits all because there've been so many women who have spoken at the global leadership summit and I don't know that they're stepping into any more than the whole universe is a patriarchal in some ways, you know, and that you can't get out of it. But I think the gls has given them a platform over and over and over. I think it's rich, rich, horrific irony that the leader of it would have been involved in some of this. And uh, but, but I think too, I think, and this is where I interpreted now we are two different things, right? Because we're two different people. Exactly. But I interpreted what Fitz had to say was to kind of kind of a broad brush stroke across the global leadership summit and all who have been involved in it and what it stands for and what has done and accomplished over the past. You know, it's just the way he talks though. Yep, Yep. No, you're right. But I would not. There's been so much good. So a couple of years ago I was at a global leadership summit and I was sitting in the crowd and they said, hey, we're
Speaker 4:trying to feed kids in this certain place, just text this to this number and will automatically take 25 bucks and it'll be tacked onto your cell phone bill. So I did it and I gave$25. I was one of hundreds of thousands of people that attended these things. How much money did they raise and how much good did they do? The good that has been accomplished is incalculable. And, and, and I don't think one guy as egregious as it was, should be smirch the whole movement, right? I. and that's where this stuff, you have to start parsing out, right? Like it was there. Good at Willow Creek. Well, I think even the people who have come forward as people who were abused, our thing there was good at Willow Creek. What's crazy is I keep hearing people say like, this place changed my life, like this place led me into a deeper walk with Jesus. Like I always felt so blessed by this place. And then at the same time they would come off and say also, these terrible things happen and the leadership didn't believe me. And so the question starts to be, and there's so many tangents we can take on this train, but then the question starts to be, is there something to this style of corporate leadership that breeds environments where power can be abused? So it's less than about the particulars of whether there are women speakers that global leadership summit and there are women pastors, uh, you know, the church. And so obviously they are pro women. I mean, if we weren't on this podcast right now, I would use another face and talk about how somebody can be racist. It's still have black friends. But I'm keeping this apolitical. It's one thing to say those things, but another thing to invest in a system, uh, that, that holds power over people that naturally. Because, because we do live in a patriarchal world, almost always placed as men in a position of authority over women, even if it's not like on paper authority. So, and this is where this stuff gets so hard to parse and that's why I say in 20 years nobody's going to dig this out and who knows what else sound like then. But I'm just doing my best to try to understand and to listen and to learn and for me to say, okay, what does it look like to have folks that I can be transparent with, to have true accountability with a board? Uh, and with a group of peers, what does it look like for me to work toward submission so that it's not my way or the highway, right? What. And, uh, you know, how do I answer those questions so that I don't end up in a situation where I'm abusing my power in whatever way that might look like, because there's passengers to abuse their power in churches and uh, and it's not sexual. They've abused their power and other ways. They're domineering and there, you know, and they don't learn and they're not teachable and you know, and that's a different thing, but it's abuse nonetheless and there's still people who get hurt and who get crushed by it and that's bad as well. And so yeah, I'm just sifting through how to. That's the part of what Fitch said, that I appreciate it so much. How to create systems of mutual submission. Right. Even if you have a title of lead pastor, because he's never had that title. Okay. But if you do, how do you still have patterns of submission that will. Yeah, just create environments where this stuff can't fester as much. We're centers, it'll always be there, but that you at least start dragging light over into the darkness. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when I think about a bill, I feel sorrow. I feel sadness. I think to myself, what must it be like to be him right now? You know, it's pretty horrible. When I think about the women that were involved over the years, I feel compassion. I feel anger that this could happen to them in that kind of a setting of all places right in the, in the kingdom, in the body of Christ where Jesus elevated, elevated and honored and respected women in, in the very body of Christ. We're doing something that's different and, and I don't see, I don't see that they're in opposition to each other to feel compassion and pity for a guy who's in the spot that he's in, but then also to feel anger for the women because I think we have to learn. We have to learn from both. We have to learn how to love the, the least of these and those who need the most forgiveness. And we have to learn how to have compassion. And uh, uh, uh, what's empathy? Empathy for those who have been abused and used and somehow learn from it and realize it in, in my world and in my environment, I cannot let that happen. And where could that happen in my environment? Maybe where is it happening? God forbid in my environment that the week, whether they're women or their kids or their, they're economically or educationally deprived, where is it that the weak are being exploited or stepped on or subjugated in my world, and so to walk with humility through these types of things and to learn and grow while having compassion for those going through them, it's,
Speaker 4:it's so interesting because people have been blessed by the Ministry of Willow Creek and by bill's ministry there is almost a sense of like, yeah, you do feel grief right over the situation for him. I wonder if he was just Joe Pastor, you know, at Nantucket, you know, first assembly or something like that. And we hear these stories. I don't. Do we feel that way? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, do we feel that way about that? So I'm torn on this stuff, man. I'm torn because I think, I think if this is all speculative and I don't want to get into speculative stuff, but I'm torn because I don't see a great deal of, uh, like my bad nis happening. You know what I'm saying? Like I don't. See, I don't see ownership of what's happened and that bothers me in this situation. We haven't seen it yet. No one owned it. The other senior leadership has owned it, and so the ownership is starting to come out of Willow Creek and that helps me move past my frustration with the way that they handled this in the first place. Right. So that helps me be able to say, okay, now I can feel a little more empathy because there's.
Speaker 1:And they were also in the fog of war, they just were in the FFA. There's, there's part of that. That was a reality there too. That happens in war. You've just got this fog where it's all, it's all happening and then once the fog clears a little bit, you realize, Oh man, we did not handle this. Right.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I'm just. I'm all mixed up now. I had never. I'm imagining this happening to somebody that I have looked up to. I never had that kind of like I'd once referred to bill hybels on this very podcast as that guy from Chicago because I remember his name. Okay. There's not been a huge impact on my life in ministry, but I'm trying to imagine what if it's somebody who had and I think that's. Yeah, because I don't have that. It's easier for me to be kind of like, you know, stoke the fires on the steak or whatever. Well, what if you found out, what if you found out that I was cheating on my wife? So this is what I've thought about is like, how would I respond? But I found this out of the jeff for the record, but I have. I thought, how would that. And I wouldn't be first disbelief, disbelief if somebody came forward and said this about you. I would first respond with this belief and I know, look, that'll be the thing that people remember that I said in 10 years, right? That I don't believe victims. I'm not trying to say that I don't believe victims, but I know you, Jeff. I trust you. I love you. Like we've, we've gone to battle together like we've shared life together. If someone came forward with that on you, yeah. I would be like, no way. No way is that true? Not About Jeff. I would first start with this belief
Speaker 1:and you're taking a gamble. You'd be taking a gamble on. Absolutely. Absolutely. They did it for building. Did it for him, right? They took a gamble on them because they, they not. It wasn't that, that they did not want to believe it. How do we could not believe it? What do we do? What did we. I say we don't credit. I say we don't be so hard and so harsh on the elders of willow, but, but we learn. We learn from it and we look at the women and we say we have to be way, way, way more attentive, and we've got to be more sensitive. And, and, uh, paying attention to women who are victims to the, we are to the oppressed who cry out. The Bible says that, that there, there are blood cries out from the ground and God hears it. Right? Those who have been oppressed and who had been killed and had been slaughtered, I think it's the same way. We don't need to become more quick to judge and believe the bad about others. We need to be more quick to listen to the cries of those who are oppressed and believe them and listen to their story.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm just, you know, this is future use kind of stuff because we can all criticize. We can all look at this situation. We can criticize here, here, here, here, here. There was a, there was an article on missio alliance just recently. It might have just come out today. I think it was today, seven questions I have to ask myself, you know, in light of bill hybels and that's, uh, that's the posture that our elder boards need to take or what? Maybe it's the Deacon Board in your church. How will you respond in these moments if this were to come up? Um, could, because we've had. Now we've had a negative example in this situation and a positive example. I mean, and this, the same church, this, the same board. They're owning their own mistakes. They're saying we did not do this right now we're doing this instead. And so how will we prepare? Yes. How do you prepare to prevent this from happening in the first place and then how when this happens, will you respond because it would not be helpful if someone came forward and said that about you. For me to immediately go into character assassination on them. You know what I'm saying? Like that's not what Jesus would do. That's not what. That's not the love of Christ and it might be my natural thing because I trust you. I love you. I'm going to defend you. Right? Right down the line. But that's not the Christ like response in that moment. So how do we, it's the mess. Detention man and everybody on the outside will always be critical. But you know, we need to prepare for ourselves and in our own hearts and in our own lives and our own churches to do this the best we possibly can. I don't know man. This stuff has got me all churn in a little bit and it's crazy.
Speaker 1:It does. And I think it's got every pastor in America who knows anything about any of this stuff. It's got us churning to look at the Chicago Tribune and some of the Chicago media and see that, that when, when guys like bill hybels and guys like, who's the guy that wrote the case for not the case for Christ. I'm Lee Strobel. You're talking about. Yeah, yeah. You look at a guy like Lee Strobel who spent so much of his life trying to create an understanding in the culture that believers can be people who are loving, who will honor others, who make the city better, and then it's heartbreaking then to read stories written by the media in the city and they're just. And I don't even send so much. They're taking shots at the church. As much as you're just saying, yeah, this is what happened at this church and it needs to be told because here in America we have a free press. We want to get the truth out and we're getting the truth out and it's heartbreaking that it's come to this and this is the part that the leader and the leadership has to live with and the regret that they have to now steward and manage in their own heart. And I hope for me, for you, for, for every pastor, it scares us to death. That if we were to get into this kind of a situation, I got grandkids now. You know, Bill's got grandkids. I got an adult daughter. He's got an adult daughter. The suffering that these people are going through because of the actions of a person, uh, some sometimes a dozen, 20, 30 years ago, whatever. It's just scare every pastor to death and scare us to a point where, hey, we're going to set up some safeguards in our life's. Like for real, for real safeguards. None of this. None of this phony baloney stuff. But we're really going to become accountable and try and set up some safeguards in our life. So we don't find ourselves in these situations. And then the other side of it, we have to start listening. We maybe even have to start investigating and asking a women, women and kids and maybe teenagers in our churches, not to get weird about it, but just just keep our, keep our ears open and keep our eyes open. Is anybody in a position where they don't feel safe and where they're not safe. We have to be sensitive that the world is now sensitive to that. How could it be that the church wouldn't be?
Speaker 4:Yeah, man. Jeff, I feel like me and you are wandering around a murky waters. I, it occurred to me while we were talking, I just want to say this, if you've listened and we have, in your opinion, gone too far, not gone far enough, it probably that we've gone not far enough probably please email us like we're trying to learn. Like I don't listen to this podcast and take my jumble of words, uh, as, as anything that I, that I hope that it's not. I want to learn if you, if you can help me, uh, if you're a man or a woman out there in ministry and you have a experienced something like this or you are having, you know, your own reaction to this that you think could be helpful, please share that with me. I don't think that I'm Mr. I have all the answers. I don't think that I'm right about all this and I'd really like to process not process what bill did not process. I'm talking about. I want to process how we can move forward as individuals, as churches in ways that are healthy in ways that are mutually honoring and mutually submissive. Men and women together, people with different gifts together, all of that stuff. And if I've stepped all over, you know, I've, I've stepped all over my own feet and describing my thoughts and emotions. If I've said something inappropriate or or callous, please, please, please, please let me know that it's not my heart, it's not my intention, but intention gets muddled with words and I would love to continue this conversation with people who have been in these kinds of spaces before and who could help teach me, you know, a thing or two.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's the thing, people are responding and reacting to this out of their past me, out of my past, you out of your past something like this has happened in our life. If we've undergone some kind of abuse or whatever. We are definitely thinking about those women and if we're in a place of leadership, we're, we're thinking about, you know, Bill hybels and, and how can we not be in there? But I would say let, let us not pile on. I don't want to do that, you know, bill or willow creek or megachurches are. Because for everyone that's getting it wrong, there's a hundred or 500 getting it really, really, right. And the bottom line is there is no perfect church. God, God did something through Willow Creek. He did a ton of stuff. Why? Because there's a ton of believers there that the holy spirit is filling in. I mean, there is no church where you couldn't say, wow, God even did something through that church because every church has flawed leaders. Every church is going to go through a, you know, the, the dark hour and, and bad stuff there. There aren't any churches that don't, so let's not put them up on a pedestal like maybe we've done and let's not pile on like maybe we've done, let's, let's pray for bill and his family, particularly his family and maybe a little bit for bill, right? Because I always say we're pastors, you know, W, we get what's coming to us, but let's pray for him and his family. But then let's also readable our sensitivities to women in our culture and especially in our churches. That could be, that could be abused or, or, or, or put down or suppressed or oppressed press because we do not want that. God doesn't want that. That has no place in the body of Christ.
Speaker 4:All right, Jeff, I think. I think we covered it. Man. I, I'm, I'm, I've never been less nervous or more nervous to push the publish button. I feel like I said what I wanted to say, but you know, these are fraught. These are fraught issues. I think it helped get into fraught issues. I feel like about it, but yeah, it's where we are.
Speaker 1:It helps us to know who was the guy who said fought, disentangle themselves when they pass through the lips and the fingertips. Ah, there you go. I'm Dawson Trotman I think said that and when we can speak it out and talk it through, uh, it's helpful to us and we kind of do this for pastors who listen, we talk about stuff and they hear us usually with a guest talking through some topic, some area of ministry and it's helpful. I listen to podcasts all the time and it's helpful. So you're right down and I think our listeners know that we're not listening because we're adding all kinds of wisdom to the conversation. Although honestly, I hope we've added a little. I mean, we wouldn't do it if we didn't think we just a little bit of light. I think that the church has to be the church and we've got to stand up for each other. We've got to call each other out when we need to and we've got to help people and we've got to love. So yeah, my biggest thing, man, don't pile on. Just don't pile on. Let's let's relieve suffering where we can do it and let's. Let's call for justice where we must do it.
Speaker 4:Well, there you have it. That's that's it. If you're listening to this episode two years from now, I might not even make any sense, but if you're listening to it today when it comes out, we hope that it's caused you to think differently. To think deeper at least, and I would reiterate Johnny, a 200 churches.com. I would welcome any and all feedback and any and all help you can give me an deepening my understanding, deepening the shared pool of meaning as Pam would say. So
Speaker 1:thank you so much at all. Send it all to Johnny. It'sj o n n y hj o n n y@twohundredchurches.com. Ship it all off to him, just did leave me out of it.
Speaker 3:I look forward to it and we will see you next week on the 200 churches podcast. My name is Angela and I want to thank you for listening to this episode. If you haven't already, you should subscribe to our weekly email@twohundredchurches.com and to the podcast on itunes or your favorite podcast app. You know it. We'll be back next week with another amazing and encouraging episode just for you. Until then, may God bless you as you lead and love his church.
Speaker 1:It should be close. Good. All right. This is a. I don't even know what. What number is this?
Speaker 4:To? 80 eight to 89. I think. Last week I said to 88 and I was actually pleased that it was the right number, so I think this week is to 89. Do I say that? Do I say the odd ones? Yes. Let me double check though. Yeah, it's[inaudible] 89. And you do say the APP once. That's fine. It says it's recording so it shouldn't be an issue. Okay. We're ready to have it out. I'm excited.
Speaker 2:It is 4:25. I got my first restarted one hour with Dave Jacobs at 4:30. Hey, did I send you. Oh, tell me I sent you. Um, wait. Am I continuing to record your stuff? Oh yeah.