The “In Hindsight” Series: Greg Double on the PRmoment Podcast

 In a new regular format of the PRmoment Podcast with Ben Smith we’ll be catching up with UK public relations leaders - and our guests will share their in hindsight secrets that they wish they'd known when they started their businesses!

Today we're chatting with Greg Double, creative director of consumer PR agency Mischief.

Mischief is the consumer PR arm of MHP. MHP and Mischief are owned by Next Fifteen, which acquired them from Engine last year. Mischief has recently won Diageo and Team GB accounts. Other clients include Lego, Just Eat, and Ocado. MHP which owns Mischief has a fee income of about £33 m and 200 employees.

Greg has previously worked at Frank and Ready 10. He has been at Mischief for 3.5 years.

And thanks so much to the PRmoment Podcast sponsors of the PRCA.

Here is a summary of what Greg and I discussed:

 2 mins Greg confirms the re-appearance of the Mischief brand as the consumer arm of MHP!

4 mins Greg gives his first in hindsight lesson: He should not have started his career at Blue Rubicon! (now Teneo.)

“I was too young to start in corporate PR...everyone had done a Masters!”

“I was too immature to be in that game”

“The graduate scheme was Apprentice style…I’d never been tested like that before.”

“You have a responsibility to keep learning.”

11 mins Greg gives us his second in hindsight lesson: Don’t get bowel cancer at 33.

“I’m down half a bowel, I had chemotherapy last year.”

“Deborah James is the reason I got checked, which was very lucky for me.”

“We need to destigmatise chemotherapy!”

“The obsessive part of me has been erased away a bit.”

“I’m constantly terrified it’s going to come back…so I’ve made some staunch lifestyle changes.”

“I love that I still care about my work.”

“I’m proud mentally I’ve retained a balance.”

21 mins Greg first had symptoms in Oct 2021, when the Omicron strain of COVID was kicking off - which meant he was unable to get a GP appointment.

“Because I had private healthcare, through work, there is a legitimate argument that work saved my life there.”

“The NHS is the best in the world for saving your life, the worst in the world for knowing your life needs saving.”

25mins Greg outlines the symptoms that mean you should go and get checked out for Bowel Cancer.

Things to look out for: Blood in your poo, if your poo habits change, waking up in the middle of the night desperate to go to the toilet.

27 mins Greg talks about why he will no longer eat processed or ultra-processed foods.

30 mins Greg talks about his third in hindsight lesson: Don’t be afraid to evolve your career.

“By embracing opportunities your career will end up in a better place.”

34 mins Greg talks about why “demographics are useful but fundamentally dead”

35 mins Greg describes the work Mischief is doing to try and bring science to targeting an audience with a specific passion.

“Demographics are growth limiting”

“Earned is essential for passion…you can’t pay for passion - you have to earn it.”

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to the PR Moment Podcast Produced in association with the Marketeers Network.

Speaker 2: 0:17

Welcome to this latest film and podcast, me, ben Smith, and today we're catching up with Mischis, greg Double, and this is a new format or we're done now, or the PMO podcast, where I catch up with UK PR leaders and our guests shared their in hindsight secrets that they wish they'd known at the start of their careers. As I say, we're chatting today with Greg Double, who is from Mischief, and Mischief, if you don't know, is the consumer PR arm of MHP. Mhp and Mischief are owned by Nex 15, which acquired them from engine last year. Mischief recently won the AGO and the UK Olympic squad team. Gb accounts and other clients include Lego, just Eat and Ocado. Mhp, which is a say part, owns Mischief, i should say, has a fee income of about 33 million and 200 employees. Previously, greg worked at Frank and ready 10 and he's been at Mischief for three and a half years. If I'm honest, greg, it seems longer. But before we start I should also say thank you so much to our PMO Podcast sponsors, the PRCA, greg welcome to the show.

Speaker 3: 1:35

Hi Ben, thank you for having me. I hope you're the only person that says it seems longer and my boss doesn't say that.

Speaker 2: 1:41

It's your regular LinkedIn updates that I think it feels like I've been reading them for a bit more than three and a half years. But yeah, I should get that out of the way. I thought Mischief was sort of taking, I would say, disappearing from our screens but taking, shall we say, a little bit of a backwards step. But it seems to me it's sort of back as a separate brand. Has there been a bit of a change of heart from it being all consumed by the MHP brand?

Speaker 3: 2:12

I'm not even sure It's a change of heart, i think. Look, in my time at Mischief we've basically been written off more times than a Katie Price car. But when I first joined it was, oh my God, are they going to get swallowed up by the engine group? And then it was, oh, they've actually become MHP Mischief. Are they corporate now? And then it was, oh, it's next 15 to come out. We're now MHP Group, which we are one in three of MHP, mischief and Accord, and so every time I hear Mischief going, oh, i refer you to our client list, which is A list. It's Lego, it's Accord, it's just D. We keep on winning. So so no, we're not going anywhere. Because I think what happens is, is people, like, whenever it's talked about about merging and go through, you realise that Mischief is actually quite a big brand name And similarly, mhp are as well in their space. So it's, why would you try and get rid of them all? Like we're, i think, and that's one of the benefits of the next 15 sellers. And so we've been able to go out a bit more confidently as as Mischief, as a standalone again.

Speaker 3: 3:13

I think there were some really funny stories about being MHP Mischief. Where it was. We had a little bit where it's like, if you're running a capital markets team or a crisis team, you probably don't want the name Mischief anywhere near yourself. And for us we like look at MHP, have got a lovely heritage in being corporate B2B excellence. We probably just want to keep our Mischief, if you don't mind. And so the group came in. But no like, look, our regular award wins and client wins speak for themselves. We've never gone anywhere. So I don't like to say we've been back. We're back, baby, because we never left.

Speaker 2: 3:46

The great survivor of the UK PRC. As I mentioned in my intro, greg, this is all about your hindsight Yeah in hindsight lessons. So go on, give us your first in hindsight lesson that I guess you wish you'd known at the start of your career.

Speaker 3: 4:02

So I think, start from the start of the career I started. I was on the grad scheme at Blue Rubicon, which is now 10 year old. I don't want to link the two, do it. So they've gone through massive changes, but I think in hindsight I would have started in consumer PR. I've like, i've eventually found my people in Frank and I think that's why I just didn't see it. I like. My honest view is I think I was just I was. I was too young. I was too young to start in corporate PR. Like I remember I was 21 on the grad scheme I was the only one who just did a straight BA degree. I didn't do a masters, i didn't do a year out, i hadn't done it.

Speaker 2: 4:37

Everyone else did a masters today.

Speaker 3: 4:39

I was a PhD, done a work, yeah, and so I was like I was even the youngest graduate of the following year's intake, like I was younger than everyone else who came in the year below. And so I remember thinking like and like, truthfully, this is on me, this is an on blue. I was just too immature to be an okay, but I had. All my mates were still going out on the regular. They were still at university. I was sort of like I was just delighted to have a job and to be a bit excited and was like living life. And I remember looking back on and go like, actually the I would have loved to have, i would have loved to have almost like, gone back to blue Rubicon when I was a bit older and being like had another crack at it. But I think at that time I needed to be in consumer PR and what I thought PR was was not what I was doing at Blue Rubicon and what I thought it was when I was what I ended up doing at Frank.

Speaker 2: 5:30

And I have to say that my boggles why you need a PhD or a master's to be a pre junior financial PR person. I'd love to do a podcast all on that with one of them, But did you feel a bit insecure then? was that? was that a bit a bit a bit? was that behind it all?

Speaker 3: 5:50

I think I think so. it not my confidence like it was first time, because I think like, because the graduate scheme was apprentice style, like it was, it was like I think I need to You enjoyed it.

Speaker 3: 6:03

Yeah, it was like it was. It was everything I'd want to be tested on. It was really progressive in that way and I think it went down like you had to remember you had to write an essay and that got it down to like the last 12, last 20, and then this chemistry meeting that got it down to the last 12 and then five of you were taken on as the graduate scheme And it was brilliant and it was like it was really testing and I'd never been tested like that before, like they were writing test. There was argue, like my favorite thing.

Speaker 3: 6:26

They did an argument test, which I can't quite remember the thing, but it was basically a moral conundrum And all you needed to know was that there were five people, that a story was told it I can't quite remember, but there were five people involved in it And you as a group had to order one to five who you thought was most responsible for this and least responsible for the bad outcome, basically, and no one.

Speaker 3: 6:46

The point was you're meant to try to agree And I remember me in a chat called Laurie Erlen, who I think then went on to work for Facebook and stuff, were the last two standing who we just wouldn't budge on the point, and what I later found out was that no one has ever got the group to fully agree. And they look for they basically look for how you construct an argument, and apparently what I did that they were impressed by was I tried to aggregate everyone scores when. So, when everyone said one to five, we lined up all of our scores. I said, well, look, the mean position is this, and Laurie was. I remember him being, really I was some. I can't remember exactly what the idea, what the scenario was, but violence was involved and he, just he was just like one into it. That person is absolutely the most responsible And I can't quite remember the scenario, but I didn't agree with that And that was our sticking point.

Speaker 2: 7:37

So beyond that, i can't quite work out whether you have gained from this graduate training scheme you went on at 10.0, or whether you, frankly, you were scorned from it.

Speaker 3: 7:48

I think I gained from it. I don't think I think I would have loved to have taken the first six weeks I had at Blue Rubicon and then immediately gone to a consumer behind it. The training was second to none. Like I would never have knocked it about.

Speaker 2: 8:02

And nothing against corporate PR, but it wasn't for you. Is that a long-term conclusion? Will we one day see you in a suit and tie.

Speaker 3: 8:11

No, i don't think, put it this way, i don't think I'm ever gonna be, i'm never gonna be full corporate, what I think I think funny enough, i think this will come into this. It's like I think I can give a bit of creative sprinkling to corporate. That is nice And I think even now I mean I'm 35 years old. I was 14 years ago. No, hang on. Yeah, 14 years ago I was at Blue Rubicon. I had that grad scheme. I still think that that grounding in corporate PR has set me up creatively to work as I do a lot more with MHP and a lot more with the health. So I can't complain. I think I would have had a happier period if I'd taken the training that was given and then immediately gone and I wanted to do football, pr and stuff like that, maybe you wouldn't have had such a successful career, greg.

Speaker 2: 8:56

Yeah that's right.

Speaker 3: 8:57

It's like look, i think it's always telling when you're still in touch with people. Yeah, Yeah, and I was still in touch with Kebos Salavan, who's like international jet set. He was my first line manager and he's always been really supportive. It's like Dan Smith, who's one of the directors at Headland like just by coincidence, headland and Mishie worked together on quite a few of our clients Like we've worked out and like I think he runs an exceptional business. I had funny enough.

Speaker 3: 9:22

I had a managing director from 10 years slide into my DMs about the team GB And I was like I'm not going to win, just to say like, well done, and here's my sister's details, who's a cycling agent. So like you're still connected, i wonder where he was going with that.

Speaker 2: 9:38

But yeah, that's good to And the it's. The It's odd because, yeah, you've made me think about my. I did a bit of training. You know It's a part time of your life, that isn't it? When you're possibly more receptive to that sort of thing than you would in your career, do you think that's right, or do you have? Do you have much training these days, or do you? I wouldn't want. I know you're not going to claim you know it all, but you know where I'm going with it.

Speaker 3: 10:04

Ben, you don't know me. I would claim that Like, no, it's No, of course you do. Like I think you are more receptive in a better way, like that sort of training that we've got within the absolute basics in terms of how the media works, how does PR work in general. I think now your training sort of has to evolve And like look, when you get into a position of sort of creative leadership, you have a responsibility to train yourself in ways to one, set a good role model anyway and below, improve that. You're still learning And I like sharing with my team when I've messed up as much as when I've gone well And like I think that's important to do.

Speaker 3: 10:39

But I was saying, look, some of the reason I'm so passionately involved with like people like us is as much about like, look, i like to give a bit back and do the mentoring thing coming through.

Speaker 3: 10:48

That's as much for me to make sure I'm keeping up with what's current in like how we're talking about ethnic minorities, how we're talking about the LGBT community, because it's updated and changed in the time that I've been working And you could very quickly get caught, sure, if you're not educating yourself, and there's nothing worse than a culturally irrelevant or out of touch creative director.

Speaker 3: 11:10

So you have a responsibility to keep learning, and I think that doesn't necessarily always have to be in terms of practical training sessions, but I think it can be in making sure your horizons are constantly expanding. Like everyone else, i'm deep reading into AI at the moment and trying to work out where our role is in that, but frankly, i'm just as interested in the girl who had a curly blow at Glastonbury and went super viral and like making sure that I understand how the TikTok algorithm works. So I think there's a level of personal development that might not be formal training, which I think you do really appreciate when you're younger, but yeah, don't stop. I think you've got to be able to. You've got to be an old dog and learn new tricks, otherwise you are just an old dog and I've no intention of being that yet.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Right Congray, give us your second in hindsight lesson.

Speaker 3: 11:59

I think we agreed it would be a slightly tongue in cheek on a bit of tumour humour Don't get bowel cancer at 33. That plainly sucked, which I think people who know me in the industry know that that's something I had to go through last year and touch wood I know I'm in the clear app present, like last camera up the bum said so. So it's like it's as you take it. But yeah, i would probably have eaten a lot less off the drill in my youth and maybe smoked a little bit less and drunk a little bit less. But at the same time, like if you get it at 33, it's not your lifestyle. You've probably got a genetic condition which is looking into it. But yeah, i'm down half a bow.

Speaker 3: 12:36

I did chemotherapy last year And yeah, it's like I'd rather have not gone through that. So I think that my hindsight bit is I wish I'd reported the stomach cramps I was having three months before. I reported the bit of blood that was in my stools And I think that could have maybe saved me a bit more. I could have maybe kept a bit more bowel and maybe not had to do chemo because they thought, for the stage it was at, it's better that you do. They call it the adjuvant setting, which basically means we think we've got it all but let's give you a blast of chemo to make sure that it doesn't come back. So it's more stop it from coming back than if there. And then look, that's. I mean look, if I was to hindsight, briefly on chemo, like it's one of the things I'm most passionate about talking about, like look, raise the awareness of the symptoms. But like look, deborah James is the reason I got checked, which was like very lucky for me. It gives you a sort of renewed sense of personality, like a sense of self and coming through that, and it's like I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. But like my thing with chemotherapy is like we need to de-stigmatize that a little bit, because if you are otherwise healthy and like my surgeon's favorite joke, which if I was in a good mood I enjoyed and if I was a bad mood I didn't, because if it's not for the tumor in your bowel, you're in otherwise great health like your blood tests show nothing And I'm like that actually scares me more that that's why it got missed. It's like my blood test it was literally nothing And then we thought we'd be talking about it in terms of your sort of general health and how you approach things and how you get lucky and how you get through it. Because, like the chemo didn't really hit me that hard. It was like it was unpleasant and I'm not advocating it for anyone, but because I was in otherwise good health I got through it okay.

Speaker 3: 14:17

I worked through chemo because I felt like I could. That was. There was a little bit of McKismo involved in that And like wanting to prove that this wasn't gonna beat me, which you have a lot in cancer circles. It's like you sometimes out for up, especially in men like you, sort of like you want to get into that fight language with it, which I did a little bit, but more than that, except for the day or two afterwards when your hands go numb and it's hard to type and stuff. It didn't really affect me like that It was.

Speaker 3: 14:46

I was happy to keep thinking, i don't know.

Speaker 3: 14:48

The worst thing was, as I see, i just had to stay inside all the time because COVID was around big time.

Speaker 3: 14:53

When you're doing chemotherapy you've not got much immune system And so I was a very housebound, creative, which I don't think is, i don't think is conducive to having good ideas.

Speaker 3: 15:03

I think you need to go and see the world around you. Like I'm a boring creative and I think a good walk is better than any brainstorm. Like you'll hear a million people say that, but it has changed the way I approach work and the way I think I have. Obviously, i'm full of a lot more empathy now in terms of, like cancer itself, but also I think I'm quite a good asset to our health PR team at the moment because I can tell you all the way I remember being sat in the ward after recovering from surgery And all the doctors, all the nurses would speak about is how all their feet were and they'd been standing there and I'm like, oh my God, someone needs to do a trainer deal with the NHS like quick, that would be astonishing. And it like it just opens up your world to a new way of thinking And like I think I think, if the real hindsight thing is it would be take away all the emotional side of that.

Speaker 3: 15:53

It's about caring the right amount And I would be like about work in general and in your overall thing, like caring the right amount is right, like I am not so far down. That's what the top should be like. I think you should care about your work. I don't believe that it's nine to five and then you switch off. It's like I think if you're passionate about your job, you should be seeing little things. I can't move without seeing an idea for a client of something and somewhere and go through. I don't ask anyone to be like that, but I would also be obsessive And I think the obsessive part of me has been erased away a little bit because of what I went through. Because of that, you think it's coming back.

Speaker 2: 16:33

Like are you? do you think you're more into work now than you were when you did? I want to talk about the dates involved in a minute, but just because that's what, i've never been that ill, but when you, i very often start having had something like that happen, like if you have something close to you die. it's just not that Your perspectives change for a while, but the sad truth is that sometimes you evolve back to your former self.

Speaker 3: 16:58

No, so I think I've got two things right. So one, i'm constantly terrified it's going to come back. And while I'm in this, two, basically the longer you don't have it, the better is a general gist And then it starts your chances of reoccur and starts sliding down. So as a result of that, i've made really like staunch lifestyle changes. I'm now a vegetarian and I was a heavy meat eater before, like I try and not eat any processed food And like I'm in better nick because of it and all the rest of it. So I've made that sort of fundamental lifestyle change. My mindset is like I actually I loved that I still care about my work. Like I remember thinking like even when it was like it's darkest point, i remember thinking like I am astonished that I still give a. I'm astonished that I still care, like, for me.

Speaker 2: 17:44

Well, at that point it was possibly a bit of escapism as well, wasn't it? It's quite nice to think about work.

Speaker 3: 17:48

I don't know. You know, May definitely during the chemo, like it's that and test match special, It was like and I remember Greg.

Speaker 3: 17:54

I remember Greg Jones, especially, being an absolute gem throughout and he was like look, do you want some work, because I know what you're like, do you want to have a think on this? He goes you can say no, no, babe, please give me it. Like I'm literally going mental here and there's only so much mafia free. I can play Like I am. I think I know all of the FIFA soundtrack at this point, like get me back in And it did help.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Like for sure.

Speaker 3: 18:19

I think, like either side, I'm proud mentally. I've maintained a balance between like I thought we'll say, like, like it's like the whole PR, not ER thing has never been more real. Like to me, like I can't, you won't, I can't get too upset about it, but I care the right amount. Like if you win a pitch, I'm ecstatic. If we lose a pitch, I'm like it's quite literally not the end of the world.

Speaker 2: 18:40

I'm like let's work, just working for a big. We mentioned this bit in the pre-show chat. I mean, you know you work for a big organization. That is quite. There's some stability there. Isn't there, do you know what I mean? It's not the be all and end all if you win a pitch, and it's probably not the be all and end all if you lose a pitch, which isn't always the same for a smaller owner managed business.

Speaker 3: 19:02

Yeah, no, i think I think there's a bit of that. I think there's also the structures that you have in place, like I think that big company comes with big healthcare Like, look, we can't have, we can't have the health operation that we do without backing it up with our staff and having really good policies. In that way, i was just incredibly well supported, like it was. We had an HR team that was able to supply mental counseling if I needed it And I never needed it, like and it was, but it was great, it was there and you do have that bit of protection. And yet I look, i think, look, if you've touched on it, there was an emotional difference between owner run businesses and sort of having that big stability. And I think the right thing for me at that point in my life is definitely to be a big owner run business and a big next step?

Speaker 2: 19:46

Well, I suppose it takes. it takes the personal element out, but it doesn't. if you're too ill to do something, frankly, someone else can You know there's someone else who can do it, whereas sometimes, when the team's a bit leaner, that's always the case.

Speaker 3: 19:59

And I think that was something that happened pretty like, but like it's like I it's the one bit I do get a bit of, but it's the way the agency galvanized about me. It was sort of like quite nice. It was like, oh Jesus, everyone's really trying here to make it really lovely And like when you, when you, when you can get Alex big emotional, yeah, that's, that's something. that's something quite about.

Speaker 2: 20:19

And it was like I wish you to film that, greg. That would have been good to see, but Is that?

Speaker 3: 20:23

is no like either, gem. like I think the happiest I've seen him is when I told him that I was coming back to work and then also the team GB bitch, and I think he was happier about the team GB bitch.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Just talk us to the time scales, cause I think that's interesting to talk about. Um, you, you had cause. You had stage three bowel cancer, right? So it was. We should just say that it was. It was serious, yeah, and you had symptoms. The things move really quick, right? You had symptoms in October 21. Is that right? They get that right.

Speaker 3: 20:54

Yeah, that's right. I think that's when I was like no excuse to pun, but holy shit, yeah, like it is not good, and that, if you remember, that's when the Omicron by variant was coming around like the one that actually turned out to be the soppy one.

Speaker 2: 21:07

Yeah, so I took a couple of weeks there. We were like, well, this is this is gonna, this is gonna finish us off, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 21:12

And like, and it was, it was a nightmare And it just meant I couldn't get a GP appointment Right.

Speaker 2: 21:18

So you were, you were really worried at that point but you couldn't get in front of a GP.

Speaker 3: 21:23

And then, and then the moment like I I luckily again because we've got private healthcare, so this is a thing that I thought we'll talk about. If you have a business, if you are an industry leader, leave, leave, leave, leave, leave, leave It's like there was a chance thought of although I don't want Big E to hear this or Charlotte to hear this, if I don't want to limit any pay rises in the future Like there was a legitimate argument that my work saved my life there because I was able to go private and get and get to a consultation and get to an expert really quickly. And then the moment the expert saw me, i described my symptoms. He said to me look, i need to be real with you. I think you probably got it. It's like the only thing that's making me not think you have is your age.

Speaker 3: 21:59

But everything you're describing is to a T that we're gonna do a colonoscopy right now. Saw it? great, right, we need to chop this out. And yeah, it wasn't found early, but it wasn't found too late. So I've got, i've had, i've had the chance to fight it and touch wood, it doesn't come back. But it's the NHS. The thing that I've learned about the NHS is best in the world for saving your life, worst in the world for knowing your life needs saving And that's where our mortality rate happens. So to give you a context of like, the NHS has incredible spending power. Like I had, my operation was part conducted by a robot that was steadying the hand of the surgeon and like doing incisions and like, which is like a 40 million pound piece of kit. The NHS has the purchasing power to buy something like that because it's so big. What it doesn't have is because it's scoping for reach in general. It's like to find out that you need to use that bit of kit Like, and so there is there was good and so.

Speaker 2: 22:57

So in that sense, the private medicals care, help with your diagnosis, and then the and then you got transferred probably isn't the quite the right word, but you basically then got transferred into the NHS.

Speaker 3: 23:09

That's transferred 100% the right word. That is what happened. Like if they said like, look, you could stay private, but like when you get into operation and chemo, if you are talking hundreds and hundreds of grand and there's no quality differential.

Speaker 2: 23:21

The NHS is possibly better because they've got. They've got the, as you say, at that level they can afford a bit of kit that not all the private hospitals can.

Speaker 3: 23:29

Exactly that And also like and also what happens if something goes wrong in a private hospital? they will use straight into an NHS? Yeah, So it goes wrong under the knife, you're there So so, yeah, that's it. So, yeah, touch wood, it won't come back and I can maintain this cheerful disposition and like I don't have to put.

Speaker 2: 23:46

But just to finish on it, the time is interesting, aren't it? Because you've got the diagnosis took about three, two, three months and then, but then very quickly, you had the operation about.

Speaker 3: 23:56

I got down here about a month after the diagnosis and then you were into chemo and that was about well just over a year ago, Yeah well, honestly, the hardest thing, I was better having cancer than I am not having cancer, like it was easier to have it and to face it and then to mentally deal with the challenge of every time I go for a colonoscopy or a CT scan or something like that. Because the thing that haunts me is I was never real. So you say like oh, i really am, i was never real. Like I was playing football two days before my like sorry, not two days, absolutely five days before my operation, like it never like helped me but I just I wasn't ill. The most ill I was in the entire process was in the fourth week, the fourth round of chemotherapy, because it's sort of it's degenerative and I was feeling proper miserable at that point and like in your tired and you're a bit drained and stuff.

Speaker 2: 24:47

That's the most I've been like and so I know you don't want to dwell on it, so I'll let you go there. But just for anyone out there listening, we should just talk about the symptoms, shouldn't we Just to, if anyone out there is feeling a bit worried about it and want to look out for.

Speaker 3: 25:02

Yeah. So look, i'll keep it really simple. Look, the biggie is blood in your stool and the best way I can describe it is you will know like it's not. It's not like seeing a bit of strawberry in there or something. I'll save you the details. You'll know like and it or something will trigger you and you'll go oh my god, that's definitely blood. Then that's definitely go.

Speaker 3: 25:21

But before that like that tends to be a later presenting symptom, like if your habits change, like the big thing for me was I was like I could set my barrel to clockwork and then I couldn't and it was like all of a sudden my religious half-pass nine became a half-pass 10, a half-pass 11, a half-pass 12 and I was there like this doesn't really happen. A big tell is if you've ever, if you ever, wake up in the middle of the night desperate to go for a toilet, strongly recommend you go and see someone, because that was, that was the thing that loads of people I spoke to had bowel cancer. Young was there. That was something weird that we didn't ignore, because you then go to the toilet and you feel fine, but what it is it's basically I'll try and describe this without me doing it your tumour can start acting as if it's a stool and so it starts convincing your body that you need a pool all the time, and that's one of the things to help find.

Speaker 3: 26:14

So basically, still, habits change. Go and get it checked out. You've probably got a bit of IBS. You might have a bit of IBD. Just go and get it checked, like once the worst can happen.

Speaker 2: 26:25

And just give us a bit on, because I know your doctor's got processed foods because that's coming, isn't it? We are, as a human race, we are not being sensible with the amount of processed foods we're eating, and I know that's something that well. It's come out of it a good change for you in terms of your habits and how you treat yourself.

Speaker 3: 26:44

Yeah like my. So my search in a chat called Mr Kinross, who's an imperial like, he's a proper like, he's a gut health bloke, and so I thought I'd say to him I want to give myself the best possible chance. If it's not coming back, what do you do? He goes well, i'd start by going vegetarian, go plant-based. And so he talks about going plant-based, not vegan. So it's less like don't just get a fake meat burger, because as much process has gone into that as possible.

Speaker 3: 27:09

Like, you'll hear red meat, you'll hear sausages and all the rest of it. Like, have got links? processed food or ultra processed food, i think is going to be the next battleground. I think you've got to be a little bit suspect of where that argument's coming from, because I'm seeing a lot of that argument coming from Big Dairy trying to scare off vegan food and substitutes, and so the way they're using ultra processed food is as an argument to scare off cheese with a Zed and stuff like that. So you've got to be a bit mindful of where it's coming from. But look, everything is moderation, nothing in excess. Right, i think that you can have the odd sausage roll coming in and stuff like that. But the thing that's scary for me about processed food is just what is processed bread is super processed food. Like if it's been sliced it's definitely like if you make your own bread it's less processed and coming in it's. So the general rule like look at the ingredients. If there's anything with X in it, like not ideal. If there's anything, if the ingredient list goes on for too long, probably try and give it a miss.

Speaker 3: 28:07

But I think health-wise and I think PR-wise in general, that could be one of the next things to do. Like if I was going to do a brief shout out for another agency, the last people like us at then was hosted a Venno. I've always got to remember I always call them Xeno, but anyway Xeno, xeno. Sorry I always mispronounced them, but Xeno hosted it and all of the food they put on was vegetarian and they did it predominantly from a sustainability point of view. But I spoke to their managing director while I was there and I said, like do you really like that? That was actually brilliant for me because I'm not a vegetarian, because, save the planet, i'm a vegetarian because of this. That's the first time I felt like I've had a bit of inclusivity there in that sort of space and being able to pick food, so it's a nice thing to think about in that respect but, yeah, that was a nice touch.

Speaker 2: 28:56

Well, on that note, you may remember, because we had the vegetarian main course at the PM moment awards was lovely, wasn't it? And I forgot because I tasted it in the menu tasting session that we did before the awards, and then I forgot to order it and I was really annoyed because it was damn fine, wasn't it.

Speaker 3: 29:17

It was very strong and I believe like for the first time I've been at a new order. The potato dauphinoise was actually cooked to perfection, like you love to hear coming through. You're all child break.

Speaker 2: 29:27

Mate this potato dauphinoise. Is that not a processed food then? Are we in the clear on that? I'm a little bit confused.

Speaker 3: 29:36

Like, look, to be honest, as much as I'm preaching to myself here, it's like I think you can let yourself off when you're in the PM, right.

Speaker 2: 29:43

It's like we're celebrating, but no, we're all like a potato dauphinoise. Go on, greg, give us your third in hindsight lesson.

Speaker 3: 29:50

So I think having it's all quite nicely linked to the first one, it goes full circle. It's like it's to try and not to be scared, to evolve your career. So I remember sort of moving to when I left Frank it was to go to synergy as they were then, who then became engine sport and went through and I was like I want to do sport PR And it was a sight that I'd done, i was ready, it was like my passion and point. And then you sort of realized I remember being in sport PR and that was the first time that I remember being like, yeah, this is brilliant, i'm doing really sexy stuff. And then it was just like oh, you know what I am guessing is a little bit bored when there's not a massive sporting event on. And then it's like and it was.

Speaker 3: 30:29

I was like try and talk about it in terms of out of tens And it's like working synergy would give you the occasional 11 out of 10 busy, but your average busy was like five, six out of 10. And I'm, my attention span is too low for that, i need a solid. And then I'd say general PR is like you are eight out of 10 busy and with occasional tens, but I'd reason I say 11 on sport is your weekends can get chewed up And he's got so well cups, it tends to kick off a little bit.

Speaker 3: 30:58

Yeah, exactly. And so I went from being like I definitely want to be a sports PR, that's my future to actually you know what I love consumer PR and being really busy. And then when I joined, from when from ready 10 to mischief, I was like one of the first things that happened And it was just as a time when we were looking for a bit more integration between MHP and mischief, because I got on a bit of work for AstraZeneca And I remember being like, oh, a bit nose put a bit out, and being like, oh, this isn't why I joined here. I was here for Lego and justy and all these battles. It's like AstraZeneca. What did they take me for?

Speaker 3: 31:30

some some suit, and it was actually some of the best fun I had in that first like period was I got to work with amazing people maybe between like Pete Digger and like Kate Pogson, who's just moved on to AstraZeneca And we did a piece of content which I didn't think was that creative from a consumer PR point of view. Managing director AstraZeneca called it the best piece of content we'd ever done And they were delighted with it And it was like it was it was all about him or her, Was it was no no but not.

Speaker 3: 32:00

it was what we did with we got it was all about the flu jab And we got politicians from different political parties to agree with each other I was taking, yeah.

Speaker 3: 32:07

It's, but no, normally that's a straight way to address the managing director, but it was, but no, it was great. And I remember being like, oh, that wasn't that difficult for me to pull together, but they were acting like it's hanging in the different channels, isn't it? Different things, yeah, and I was, and it sort of gave me this renewed sense of belief in myself to actually, oh, you know what, you might actually be pretty good here.

Speaker 2: 32:29

There's. There's money in healthcare, pr as well, great So I think it's the only.

Speaker 3: 32:33

Unfortunately, it's the only industry that would love another pandemic, but it's the but. It's incredible And I think, like I think what I was able to bring to the health team is like look, everyone's a health consumer now, like everyone has. Like we've had two years of people being of health, being the front page stories, however long and in so many different ways. And because you had to shout over COVID, you had to be more creative in health because otherwise you were getting drowned out by COVID And that became really impressive.

Speaker 2: 33:01

But your point being that, by rolling with it and embracing opportunities, actually your career ended up in a better place.

Speaker 3: 33:07

I think so. Yeah, i think I think I'm more well rounded, i think I've got more strings to my bow And I think it helps me on like the most more obvious mischief work. So we do stuff like we're doing a campaign for Just Eat at the Moment that I absolutely adore, which is all about allyship in football, that we're just filmed for today and that we're launching, and I'm like I'm really excited about it because we've got the consumer PR story really wrapped up, really lovely. You've got Conoco. The launching is going to be sick. I'm like really looking forward to it, but the sprinkling is put on.

Speaker 3: 33:37

It is like but we've also got a public affairs element to it now And there's a bit of a lobbying coming into it And there's actually a bit of like. We've done a bit of partnership acquisition and like mischief of developed partnerships team and the partnerships offering now that we brought in And I'm like, oh, i don't think I would have thought about this a couple of years ago in terms of people. It's just thinking about bigger practice, who can bring in and like, and it's taken an idea that I thought was like an eight out of 10 idea to like what I'm hoping is a nine and 10 and see you at the PR moment award next year. Sort of vibe.

Speaker 2: 34:07

Well, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah, and just to finish off, you mentioned, i guess, some of the stuff you're doing with mischief there And there's a you're well, there's a few people talking about it now that the idea that you can't categorize consumers. We all have different tastes and we all have different ways of looking at things, and you've done some interesting work on that.

Speaker 3: 34:34

Yeah, no, thank you for the plate, but no, we like mischief is part of the thing you opened up on as part of our way to sort of set a new path for mischief. We've spoken a lot about attention. We're now talking about passion powered comms, and it's basically the belief that demographics are useful but are fundamentally dead in terms of being the only thing that you should use. And the best analogy I can give you for it is when you buy something. Do you buy something because you are aged 15 to 34 and you live in London? I know you buy something because you think it's cool or you think it's going to be an amazing achievement, or because you love football And so you're going to see Peter Crouch's podcast.

Speaker 3: 35:10

It's like that's why you engage with stuff. And so, look, bram's tool Bram's trying to align with passions, is, is, is nothing new. What we're bringing to the game is a real science about behind it. And oh, now we've got Dan Deeks Osborne, who's just joined as our head of strategy from Freud's, and he and I have been working really closely to put the science behind it, because we want to go to clients and say like, look, gaming, leave it alone, it's not for you. It's like the audience like your audience doesn't line up. You don't have any credit in the bank. It's like you'll be starting to scrap.

Speaker 3: 35:42

However you sponsored a Champions League, you did it. Football doubled down Like you love it. It's being like just be single-minded on football And you will generate these results. And we got this fantastic bit of research that basically passion points to purchase. It's like if a brand aligns with your passion as successfully, you have got something like something like a 2.2% in 2.2 times increase of someone purchasing with your brand. The flip side is, if you go into passions badly, you get one of the worst hits you can get. And like the case in point of fact, that actually backfires, yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:16

So if you get it wrong, you, you take a hit and you take a hit long And like the working. Working example is when Pepsi tried to co-opt protest culture with the, with Kylie Jenner, kylie Jenner, The worst out in the world probably wasn't good.

Speaker 3: 36:31

Yeah, and what they, what they tried to do? they tried to tap into passions which they correctly identified with Gen Z love, love and movement. They got the most influential person in Gen Z culture. So they borrowed fame and they don't really they executed it so badly. They may as well have like, taken a poo in it Like it was it hurts, and then you great news for Coca-Cola, but that's interesting.

Speaker 2: 36:54

But what you've got is the. what you're saying is, if you wanted to reach a certain type of person, you could. you could use this tool to say, right, you want to go and find this, you want to go and do something over here with this passion in essence, and presumably you can turn that on its head and say, right, football, if we're sponsoring football, who are we reaching? If you see what I mean? so it can work both ways. So, yeah, that's exactly that's the attraction of it. I don't know if I explained that particularly well, greg, but that, yes, that was. hopefully you got to where I was going to.

Speaker 3: 37:28

No, no, no, you explained it sometimes better than I do, So that was the essence of it is you can start with the passion or you can start with the people.

Speaker 3: 37:35

And you can start with the people and be like look, you want this cohort, Here is what they care about, Here is what they care about less, Here's hot. Now, that doesn't mean that you only focus on one passion, It's just you split like it's just so lazy and boring and tired to do demographic. It also is growth limiting. But if you just say, like we are after targeting this age group, like there's people one year outside of that age group who you're completely missing out on And you've got to set the parameters And this is why I will always, like will always, fly the flag for PR over advertising is like when you are ticking those box for your paid campaign, you're not ticking a cultural box. You're like you can do hobbies and interest and they might have listed on Facebook. That's the extra layer that I think is missing. Like we've hit all these people 15 to 34. The wastage on that is incredible.

Speaker 2: 38:26

Like You're just making a point there, isn't it? Maybe because, i mean, i know you weren't talking to me for saying this, but there's a bit of this sort of conversation around in the PR sector at the moment, isn't it That the idea that we shouldn't be following demographics we should be following the phrase you've used is passion, but maybe it's quite a nice genre for PR, if you like. I'm not sure genre is the right phrase, but because actually it's not a tick box exercise, is it? It's not like paid, where you hold the data for your users and you can basically put an ad in front of them. Maybe it's a better channel, if you like, for PR than some of the other mark-on elements of the mark-on mix.

Speaker 3: 39:08

Well, let me put it to you like this, Like if you've heard the phrase all the gear, but no idea, right? Which is when someone People say that to me all the time When someone turns up in your passion point and they've got, say I don't know, you're a massive golf fan, and they turn up with all the golf gear, all the clubs, they've got the bat, they've got the tailor-made cap. Can't play for shit, can't have a conversation with you about it. You smelled them a mile off. That's advertising. If you just do pay, Like, do you?

Speaker 2: 39:36

see what I mean. Like I bet you obviously you're not part of Engine anymore, Greg.

Speaker 3: 39:41

Yeah, like I need to go and apologise to anyone in there, but like this is. It's like I'm being slightly facetious, but the point is it's like if you just do paid, you are not going to do passion. You can't pay passion Like, hey, you can get there. It's why earned has to be the best. You earn respect you earn. It's why KFC is so good in gaming. It's why Just Eat has got football culture done really well. It's why Lego has got play locked in. It's because you've been doing it through earned channels really nicely and you push it and you come through.

Speaker 3: 40:11

If earned is essential to passion, because you pay for passion, it's like it's faith. You've got to belong in it And that's why earned third-party endorsement, all the hallmarks for PR, like that's our money to play. So if brand, if my appeal to any potential clients listening to this if you want to play in passion, you can't just pay for passion, you've got to earn it. How do you earn it? PR And I would say that about not just Mischief, but any PR agency We are the arbiters and the gatekeepers for passion because we deal in earning it And that's why And I've never articulated it that well before, so I'm going to zip it- and I was going to say, with that Chachillion speech, we shall leave it there.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Great job, creative director at Mischief. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 3: 40:54

Thank you for having me And, yeah, i hope people actually listen to this, because I literally have never articulated it that well before.

Speaker 1: 41:00

No, Thanks for listening to the PR Moment podcast produced in association with the Marketeers Network.

Speaker 2: 41:13

If you'd enjoyed the show, please do review us on iTunes and give us a decent rating.