ENGINEERING CHANGE PODCAST
EPISODE 2: MAKING COMMUNITY WITH DR. SOSSENA WOOD

ANNOUNCER
Welcome to Engineering Change, the podcast designed to help redefine the engineering education experience by re-imaging who we see as engineers and what we see as engineering, de-siloing academic programs and problem solving and fine-tuning academic culture and climate, so people from all backgrounds and identities can succeed. Each episode will leave you with strategies to put into practice wherever you are in the process of engineering change. And now here's your host, Dr. Yvette E. Pearson.

DR. PEARSON
Welcome, everybody, and thank you for joining us. This is Engineering Change, the podcast where we're providing a unique take on overcoming barriers to inclusion in engineering education. What happens when you enter an engineering program, look around and see you're the only person who looks like you? What do you do? The same thing everyone else does, right? You make friends, you connect with people for study groups and you get to work. Well, it's too bad things aren't always that simple. In this episode of Engineering Change, Dr. Sossena Wood and I talk about how she overcame challenges of exclusion by not just finding, but in some cases making community. 

 Dr. Wood is a burgeoning rock star in the field of neuroimaging, and her work demonstrates how diverse perspectives and inclusive methodologies improve research and its outcomes for all of society. She is currently a presidential postdoctoral fellow in the biomedical engineering department at Carnegie Mellon University, and her research is focused on developing and designing medical devices that detect neurological damage and disease. Dr Wood has a B.S. in electrical engineering and a Ph.D. in bioengineering, both from the University of Pittsburgh, where she was a Pitt Excel fellow, a K. Leroy Irvis Fellow, GEM Fellow, Pitt STRIDE Fellow and has numerous other accolades to her account. She has been active in NSBE leadership for a number of years, including two terms as the national chairperson. Dr. Wood has been at the forefront of improving equity and inclusion for underrepresented people of color and black students in particular in engineering, education and careers. One of the many things our conversation highlights is how programs and institutions really missed the mark when they focused all their diversity efforts on fixing the people, the women, the minorities, the persons with disabilities that they are trying to attract without realizing the need to fix the institutions themselves. Dr. Wood's experiences point to the importance of institutional change and advocacy at every level -- students, faculty, staff and administration. 

 So grab a latte and listen in as we dive into Engineering Change with Dr. Sossena Wood. Dr. Wood, thank you so much for joining us.

DR. WOOD
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

DR. PEARSON
I'm so glad you could take out time to join us today. I met you a little more than a year ago, I think. It was during a visit I made to Pittsburgh. And I remember spending a bit of time at the university and meeting a fabulous group of young, gifted and black scholars who were either in their final stages of completing or had just recently completed engineering Ph.D.s. And you were in that group, I think. Had you just joined Carnegie Mellon at that time?

DR. WOOD
Yes, I had just joined Carnegie Mellon. I think I was three or four months fresh to the university. 

DR. PEARSON
OK, now I mentioned earlier that you did both your B.S. and Ph.D. at Pitt. Are you from the Pittsburgh area?

DR. WOOD
No, I'm not from Pittsburgh. I think I've been there for quite some time, but I'm originally from the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. So I was born in D.C. and raised in a city called Landover, Maryland, which is right outside of D.C., and I went to all of my primary and elementary school there. And I'm a product of that area. But I've definitely been in Pittsburgh for quite a while, education wise.

DR. PEARSON
OK. So why Pittsburgh? And I guess in particular, Pitt why before, and let's start with undergrad, because I know you stayed there for your Ph.D., so there must've been something great. But what made you choose Pitt for undergrad?

DR. WOOD
So I think at that time it really came down to finances. I was on college scoreboard and I was, you know, being a nerd and trying to figure out what were the best schools that fit kind of the interest of myself at the time. So I was a scholar athlete. I was looking to go somewhere where potentially I could run track and field. So they either had to be a Division One or Division Two school. they had to be in the top 50 as far as the engineering schools and the rankings, and I was looking for anywhere that was either east coast or south, so Pitt offered me a scholarship that I couldn't refuse. I think my top choices were Pitt, North Carolina State and Spelman College and Pitt won. So it was the visit that I attended and got to meet the NSBE president at the time and they just sold me on the fact that this would be a great place. I did not know that Pittsburgh was in the mountains, and did not want to go anywhere, though. The fact that, you know, all of those things that I could say I would probably have never have trended towards has been a great place of growth for me.

DR. PEARSON
Excellent. OK, so the NSBE chapter reeled you in. That's good to hear. I remember (look, decades ago at this point) when I was an undergrad, I was very active in outreach in NSBE, and I kind of wondered sometimes if any of those experiences with then pre-K to 12th grade students, if any of those paid off in terms of materializing in people going into engineering. So it's good to know that, hey, that NSBE outreach works; and we'll talk about NSBE a bit later. But of course, we can definitely see it within the things that the organization has been able to accomplish.

DR. WOOD
Yes. 

DR. PEARSON
So, you know, mentioning in particular Pitt, we know is a great university. It's a majority university. And what I find is that one challenge underrepresented people of color experience at majority institutions, especially in engineering and other STEM disciplines, is sense of belonging. Was that ever a factor for you?

DR. WOOD
Yes. Wow. I think there and I'll talk about this later, too. I think at every transition along my career, even in life, there's always that question of, OK -- Am I good enough? Do I belong here? Is this really what I'm meant to be? And so for me, it was, you know, my freshman year, the high school that I went to, Eleanor Roosevelt High School in Maryland, really prepared me well to be prepared my freshman year. But it wasn't until my sophomore year that things changed. So I went to Pitt on an academic scholarship. And the second semester, I think you had to keep a 3.0. My GPA dropped to a 2.94. So, you know, you get put on probation and all of the stressors that come with that and different things that you just aren't mature enough to manage?

So that sophomore year, my mom made it very clear to me that, you know, you have to get your grades right or either you might have to come back home so you can pay in-state tuition. Your brother is coming after you. You know that I can't pay for the both of you. So I have two parents and they both were like, yeah, well, you're gonna have to put all your efforts there. So that created a lot of stress. But we created. Yes, but what created more stress for me was the fact that none of my friends had transferred into electrical engineering. So at Pitt, the first year you are considered like a freshman, freshman engineering bachelor declaration and then you choose your major; so electrical engineering, I was the only African-American from the subset of us that went. Everyone else went to a different field. So the friends that I made there was no unnecessarily to study with. And so there were a lot of southwestern P.A. men who weren't necessarily used to seeing individuals like me or hearing my accent, which I did not know that I had one. You know, it's been improved, but different things. You know, you become aware. And so that sophomore year there was this one class, digital logic, which is about a bunch of binary numbers. And I'm like, okay, how to ones and zeroes get a computer to work? I just didn't understand that. 

DR. PEARSON
How does one plus one equal zero? Start with that.

DR. WOOD
Yes; all these different things, you know.  You don't have you your family to rely on to ask these different types of questions. And so for me I'm like, OK, well I'll try to study with peers. I'll try to go to office hours. I went to office hours and I really wasn't relating to what the professor was saying. So I'm like, OK, I'll do study groups. And in the study groups that I formed, my peers, my class peers weren't showing up. So I say, OK, hey, let's show up at 7. Sure, I'll be there.  7 o'clock comes. They don't show up, you know. So one time you're like, OK, something's wrong. Like, maybe I didn't get the time right. When it happens again, it's like, OK, there's something more in there where there was definitely, you know, exclusion. And I felt like, OK, I'm alone. This isn't working for me. And so that's when the Pitt Excel family and the mentors at the time, who now is a very strong mentor of mine, Miss Yvette Moore. Yvette was the person that really told me that I can do it and you can face this. And, you know, you just have to get over this hurdle, which was interesting because I was a hurdler.

DR. PEARSON
So I guess Yvettes are just good people. 

DR. WOOD
Yes.

DR. PEARSON
Can I ask, is Yvette a is woman of color? 

DR. WOOD
Yes. 

DR. PEARSON
OK, so now does she lead? Did she lead the Pitt Excel program? 

DR. WOOD
She now does. Yeah. She's the director. 

DR. PEARSON
OK. So tell me more, because you did mention Pitt Excel being a key there for you. Tell us a little bit about what Pitt Excel is and a little bit more about how it helped you.

DR. WOOD
Yes. So it's an academic enrichment program or academic counseling program that offers different type of opportunities for students of color. Students of color aren't the only people that can join. There are non-students of color that join. But it's a sense of family that's also connected with alumni. And you're able to, you know, start research. mentor your peers and all of those things. So before I was ever coined as a mentor, I was a mentor first to my peers and Excel. And so it was very much a fundamental starting block. People who believed in you, people that talked to you about, you know, academic related things and also what was happening at home, because that's also some things that you have to process through and you can't necessarily talk to your teachers about that. And so I think the program offered that through three counselors at the time, academic counselors and the product of the individuals who they told us before we thought like, hey, you can go on and get your Ph.D., and we're all like, no. But many of us now our have doctorate. So it's amazing the type of community, and the seeds that they sowed, and the vision that they saw in us before we believed in ourselves.

DR. PEARSON
And I think that's amazing. And one thing that you mentioned is that piece about really nurturing the whole student. I think that's probably a place where a lot of academic programs miss it because they focus strictly on, you know, what's going on in the classroom and not really on, hey, this is a whole person that has life happening to them right now. And everybody's life is happening to them in different ways, coming from different angles; and so when we don't pay attention to that, we miss the very things that are likely having an impact on the academic performance. Right?

DR. WOOD
Right. Right. Exactly. You miss a lot of things, you know. And if it wasn't for programs like that, I mean, you have a lot of tragic experiences that happen that just, you know, individuals that are 22 and younger. You can't process that through alone. And so having adults be there, whether, you know, they're praying for you, whether they're just there to support or, you know, a shoulder to cry on, and you build this sense of where family your peers too are there. We have different type of retreats. You know, just a nice community of people that, you know, you can consider family.

DR. PEARSON
Absolutely. I literally was just talking to my mom about this maybe last week, I mean very recently, about how had I had a different experience as an undergrad, I would not be an engineer right now because I remember going to one of my professor's office, Professor Edgar Blevins (we're still good friends today); but I remember going to his office and just having a complete breakdown. And he would just hand me the Kleenex box. If he had to go to class or to a meeting, he'd hand me the Kleenex and say, hey, turn the light off and make sure the door is locked when you're on your way out. And sometimes he didn't necessarily have an answer for what I was experiencing, but he never let me quit. And he always listened. And he took that time to listen. And I was telling my mom, had there not been an Edgar Blevins at Southern University to meet me where I was at that time, there's no way I would have made it through that.

DR. WOOD
Absolutely. And I think there are so many of us that are like that. And, you know, truly God bless those individuals who do that, you know, because not everybody does that. So there we are because they offered, you know, the openness for that. So I'm appreciative that you have a similar story, too.

DR. PEARSON
What I've noticed over the years is that a lot of programs that are developed to improve diversity at institutions, especially at majority institutions, tend to do so, not all, but a lot tend to do so from a deficit stance, meaning they approach it from the perspective that the minority students coming in, particularly black students, especially when we're talking engineering, but they have the perspective that the minority students are missing something, are lacking something as opposed to really looking at it from an asset base stance. Are there takeaways from Pitt Excel from or any of the other? Because you've been involved in so many programs and you've seen so many things even at this early stage in your career. Are there takeaways from any programs that you've been a part of or that you've seen that have a more asset-based approach? And it certainly sounds like this community building part of Excel was one key.

DR. WOOD
Yes, I think there are quite a few takeaways. And it's interesting, you know, where we're having these different types of conversations now with our program.  But I think anytime where a program is birthed out of a deficit, you have to do as much as possible to one, make sure it's very clear what that program is and the needs of it.  You know, and there is a lot of questions to people that aren't a part of that community of why.  Why does this program exist for these individuals? Why can't other people join these programs? There's a lot of things that people just don't get the why. Right? And I think that is the job of administrators and various individuals that can do what they need to do to have those conversations and to kind of change the culture. So I think a lot of programs the challenge becomes, is that you create these programs that try to change or increase the number of underrepresented individuals that are coming out of that pipeline. But the problem is a problem of flow. Right?  And if you don't really patch up the leaks, the challenge that you really have is that you're not ready. Like you don't have the infrastructure to deal with these types of people. Right? So you can make the program. But if the program itself isn't equipped a with type of resources, you're going to have challenges and people are going to take on these different types of things. So that's one I think infrastructure is necessary. I think, you know, I mentioned, you know, the administrators just talking and clearly articulating the why and being very clear to people why it should exist. And then to your point that it is an asset, it truly is. 

I'm saying right now that Carnegie Mellon, a really great conversation which is happening externally, well internally, that there is biases and algorithms and different type of technologies that you develop. And for a lot of these things that you're developing, you can't expect something that you mentioned earlier for a certain subset of people to be able to solve the problem. So if you're getting people from all sorts of communities to work on these things, that I think that's essential. But you do have to also create kind of like this community to what we consider culturally relevant. And so programs like Pitt Excel, whether it's, you know, the Black Student Unit or the Latino Latinx Student Union for graduate students. I think what's so important about those programs is that they bring a sense of culture, you know, in these spaces where we don't exist or when we feel like we don't belong and having faculty come and be a part of it, whether they're people of color or not. I think that's very essential.

DR. PEARSON
Absolutely. And one thing I was talking to Dr. Michael Milligan recently. He's executive director of ABET. And I asked him the questions like, OK. You're a 50 plus year old white man. Why are you so doggone passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion? And just as you mentioned, it takes people, whether you identify as an underrepresented minority or from a part of any other marginalized group in engineering, it takes people who care. It takes people who recognize the value that diversity brings, and it goes beyond checking the boxes to see if we have a certain fraction of people from this group. It ties into what you mentioned, and that is, when we have diverse problem solvers working together, our solutions as engineers are going to be better and they're going to better serve society.

DR. WOOD
Exactly. They really will. One thing that is interesting, there is there is a technology that we're developing now at Carnegie Mellon and I'll share that paper with you. But it's about dealing with EEG placement for people who happen to have curly hair. Right? And that typically falls into our hair structure.

DR. WOOD
Yes. And so developing a technology like that many people are first is, they're like why? Why is that necessarily important? But it's important because for certain hair types, you're almost leaving out a certain subset of people, whether they're in India and they have curly hair or whether they're in America they're African-American or Africa and they have curly hair. Does that mean that your technology should not serve them?

DR. PEARSON
Exactly.

DR. WOOD
And so they're working on these things, and you know, because you're a person of color, some things that you bring forth, it seems like natural intuition, you know. And so people are like, well, how did you think of something like that? I look like this every day, you know. I grew up as a tender-headed child. I had to learn how to do my hair, you know. And so that culture that you have and you bring to the table for your design, I think. it is very important.

DR. PEARSON
Right. And sometimes so hard to get people to see that, right? There's an exercise that Quincy and I did at a workshop last year and it took the audience members through identifying how diverse or not diverse their networks were. And I think that's a part of it. If you're only around people who are like you in every way and in our space and engineering, largely, those are going to be white men. And I'll say white able-bodied men. And then you don't see things through other people's lenses, or don't get to hear firsthand from other people because your network is limited, then you do miss out on just what you're saying. Like you said, we live with this every day. I just had to wash and detangle my hair this morning. And that is an undertaking. So, yeah. Getting something to work with my hair and scalp is gonna be quite different from the typical white woman with straight silky hair. So that is absolutely fabulous. So what is it that made you... Oh, I'll ask: When did you decide to get Ph.D. a in engineering? And what is it that said, hey, you should be Dr. Wood.

DR. WOOD
I think when the idea first came to me, I was very averse to it. And when I remember it most was Dr. Marcus Huggans at the National GEM Consortium. He had visited the University of Pittsburgh to talk about GEM and why you should join. And it was my sophomore year towards the end of it. And he's having this conversation with me, talking about why I should get a Ph.D.; so Ph.D., why not me? In that symposium, he has everybody introduce yourself, like, say your name, Dr. such and such. You know, so you do it and it's cute. Like, that's fun.  But afterwards, at that time, I was having challenges with school. Things got better, but I didn't see that as something that was going to happen. You know, I didn't know anybody that was getting their Ph.D. that I personally knew. And so it seemed like you had to have all these qualified credentials. In conversation with him that the followed year after, he's like, hey, you know, you remember this? So by that time, I started considering it a little more, but I was still adverse to it. So what really sold me was going into industry coming out of the recession and getting a co-op. And I'm like, OK, I have a job. Let me work and see what this is all about, you know? And from those two co-op experiences that I had, one company called Ansys and another, Powercast and they both worked on two different technologies. But it wasn't something that I felt like had a purpose. And I worked with Powercast, which was a startup, and they worked on a wireless power mats, which was wirelessly charging, you know, cellular devices or any type of electronics. They were working on that technology almost 12 years ago. So it was nice to kind of see, OK, well, this is the theory that you're learning in electrical engineering and this is what you might be able to do out of it. But I still didn't really see the point of doing something like this. It was cool, but it wasn't impactful. So it wasn't until my senior design class that I said, OK, what is this whole idea of research? And I designed an artificial pacemaker with MATLAB, then worked with some colleagues on that. And I felt like, OK, this type of technology has purpose and this is research. This research is something for sure that I would find myself being happy about because I like to help people. And this is a way that I could actually help people rather than just designing like another cool iPhone.  So from that, I started to have more conversations about research, connected with Dr. Huggans again.  And, you know, I started to drink the Kool-Aid 

DR. PEARSON
And I'm envisioning his smile and the way he does his eyes as he's talking to you. So I'm seeing this whole picture happening right now. Go ahead.

DR. WOOD
Yes; so you know him. Absolutely. And so it was a true blessing to be able to connect with him and go to the NSBE conferences and see them present about GEM what is all about and connect with Michelle Obama and just various different people that helped me connect the dots.  And so I then did research, summer research, before the end of my senior year with my who became Ph.D. my advisor. And I liked what I was doing. And I said, OK, well, I'm going to apply for a Ph.D. And so I was really nervous about it, but it was something that was really vital for me. So I was scared when I got accepted into Pitt. And I was really frightened because,Im like, I don't really even know anyone who received the Masters, let alone the Ph.D., you know., So cool and I just knew it was gonna be hard. And I'm like, man, if if I had to stay up crazy hours for, you know, undergrad, what is this gonna be like? And the funny thing is, the first year I did, I don't know if you ever heard of Donna O's guaranteed 4.0 program.

DR. PEARSON
I know Donna O, and as a matter of... well, yes, I do know Donna O's program very well. I didn't want to sidetrack you with the conversation, but yes, she is fabulous. But go ahead.

DR. WOOD
Yeah; so I did this program and I did it my first year. And I did find that I had more time. Amazingly, I was able to no longer do all-nighters and, you know, really weird things. And just I think the entire design of grad school is more team-based oriented. It's definitely independent at certain parts, but finding really good people to study with and just talk out where you're stuck was essential and vital. So her program helped in that having good peers and choosing good peers helped in that.

DR. PEARSON
So, how do you do that in terms of, because we talked earlier about sense of belonging and certainly if you feel isolated as a young black woman in an undergraduate engineering program, in a Ph.D. program, you probably felt that even more. So how is it that you... I know you said you used her guaranteed 4.0 process, but can you just speak a little bit to how you find that network of peers to kind of help you get beyond that isolation?

DR. WOOD
Yes, I actually would say I had the opposite experience in grad school. I felt more supported in grad school. And, you know, no knock to the electrical engineering department, but it was very male heavy. In bioengineering, the first thing before I got in, I met with our department chair, Harvey Borovetz. We sat down and we talked and he set this expectation. I was like, do you think I can do this? Do you think that I can transition from electrical engineering to bioengineering? He said, absolutely, I think you can. You know, my expectation he put out his expectation that he expects most people to have 3.7 or above. And, you know, I think that put a fire in me. But at the same time, he was nurturing that you can do this. And I think a lot of people, regardless of their color, had that. And he was very adamant about making sure that there were more women in our department; there were more people of color in our department. So I think on the representation aspect, there was more of us. So even that even though I was at the same institution, it felt like a different world. But in my lab, I was the only American. So that was something that was totally different to get used to, because for the first time, many of my colleagues, the perspective of America was coming from a black woman's lens and a lot of things that they were asking me about America especially, you know, during black people dying and, you know, all of these different type of traumatic things that were happening to us, to voting in 2016 election, all of these things. And they're like, well, how do you feel? And I gave my very honest opinion. And so I think by being honest, to have an honest conversations with my colleagues that that built a community, even though they were all male, you know, they're not from America, but they very much became my best friends in different ways. I had NSBE externally being a part of NSBE regional and national leadership and building a community of people of color who look like me at institutions all across the U.S. and also the world, just to connect with them through social media or various video hangouts and just to talk and dialogue and go see each other and talk about the problems that you're experiencing from the National GEM Consortium being a part of that. So these different type of spaces from fellowships and organizations that I was a part of. And I think now there are communities online where you can join and there are different types of people that you can really relate to give you feedback. And I think these communities are essential and vital to kind of just say, hey, like this is rough. This is tough. Like, how can I make it through? And I think there are so many people that can say, especially with a doctorate, we need you on the other side, just, you know, stay with it for a little while and it's going to get better.

DR. PEARSON
Yeah, and that's again, it goes back to what you said at the very outset about community and whether it starts in your department with, and I think that that leadership is so very critical. Right? So the department chair really setting the stage and setting the expectation not only for you as a student, but I would imagine that there were some expectations communicated across the faculty and the staff. And that's why you see such differences. And the other thing is and you mentioned this in terms of what kind of drew you to your research area, and that is statistically we see that more women and more minorities tend to gravitate towards fields such as bioengineering and environmental engineering, because the societal impacts are conveyed so much more strongly than in a lot of the traditional engineering fields. And I think that's one of the reasons why you saw such a stark difference there.

DR. WOOD
Yes. Yes. It was a breath of fresh air.

DR. PEARSON
Yes. So you mentioned NSBE, National Society of Black Engineers, and NSBE's mission, to increase the number of culturally responsible black engineers who excel academically, succeed professionally, and positively impact the community. Yes. So I really love, first of all, with NSBE that any NSBE member, you can stop them on a dime and they're going to be able to express that mission to you. The middle part of it, black engineers who excel academically. I find a lot of times there's this disconnect in some people's minds between black students and academic excellence. And I kind of talked about it a little bit before in the context of this deficit framing. And sometimes when people see a black student, they automatically think where they're going to need the support program in terms of academic support or things like that; not recognizing that being a black student and academic excellence are not things are that mutually exclusive. Recently, we had a screening of Dr. Kendall Moore's film, Can We Talk? And one of the gentlemen in the film, a young black man, was just expressing how he was kind of shocked when he went into his academic program. And it's like people were surprised to find out he was intelligent. He's like, this is all that happens at my house. So why is everybody so surprised when I walk in here and it's like, oh. And I mean, we've heard it, right? Oh, you are so articulate. And, you know, and it's like, do you not expect? Why is it that you don't expect me to be able to use proper subject verb agreement, let alone solve a calculus or differential equation problem? Why do you think that disconnect exists, especially in engineering and how do we change that?

Do we need another hour?

DR. WOOD
Yes.  So I think in light of, you know, that I do think that there are twofold. So I think, one, there's this perception of what black is that, you as know, as shown on TV.  And luckily, because of positive role models like the Obamas, I do think that that is changing. But the people that do have these opinions aren't necessarily the younger generation. A lot of times they're the older generation or sometimes they are the younger generation. And so I think that a lot of people don't or haven't had a black friend or a Latino friend or whatever that they personally don't identify with. They don't have friends or family members or role models that that can change their perceptions. So that's one thing. And I do think that sometimes that challenge and that scrutiny comes from people who are maybe they're not domestic, but they're international. And a lot of their experiences of what articulate people look like are people who are white. So sometimes I've been questioned by various people that might happen to be of Asian descent. And I do think sometimes that they mean well when they say it, but they don't realize that they're saying something that is perceived as negative to me. And so question might be, you know, where did you learn to speak so well? So one day I was at the bus stop in Pittsburgh and I talked to someone, somebody randomly, you know, you're just doing your thing and you know, you're being kind to society. And this lady asks me, oh, where are you from? So I say, where? And she's like, oh, well, I've been to Baltimore before and people down there, they sound horrible. Why did you come out the way that you And I'm did? like, look lady, I don't deserve to tell you that I had well educated parents and all of these type of things that... you don't deserve that, but I'm just like, you know, there are people like us who exist, you know, and I think that because of who we are, sometimes we don't realize that we do have to, of course, work a little harder or we just are in programs such as NSBE that give us these awesome skill sets that when it comes down to the end of the day, well, why do you speak as well as you do? Well, maybe it was because I was a part of NSBE or of different programs that offered me an opportunity to learn public speaking when I was a shy person.

DR. WOOD
You know, those various things, that's just hard to explain. But you can't change people's perceptions, so...

DR. PEARSON
Yeah. Well, unless they're around enough people that it ends up proving that their misconceptions are entirely wrong and they decide to change. And I laughed so hard when you said that about, you know, the speaking well, because I'm from south Louisiana and I cannot tell you how many times people have said, well, you don't sound like... you know, like what am I supposed to sound like?

DR. WOOD
Right. So if we want to go here, you can also get that from your own right. So your own might ask you: Why do you sound that way? You know.  It's a lot. So, you know...

DR. PEARSON
We should ask, how did you learn to speak English so well? 

DR. WOOD
Yes. That should be the rebuttal. 

DR. PEARSON
The other side of things with what I wanted to ask you about NSBE and you touched on it a little bit earlier and I'll contextualize it. I had a parent expressed to me that she felt her white son was disadvantaged because so many programs focused on diversity, equity and inclusion for women and minorities. And I've heard stuff like that before in other contexts saying things like organizations such as NSBE and SWE and SHPE are somehow anti-diversity and inclusion because they focus on black engineers or Hispanic engineers or women engineers. And you touched upon it earlier, but I want to just kind of take a deeper dive there in terms of why these organizations exist. And I mean, it will be lovely if there was equity so that we didn't have to have, you know, these organizations to find community. But what do you have to say to people who think that way?

DR. WOOD
That they're more than welcome to join. And so there there's nothing that, you know, prevents them from joining such communities. If they would like to. But outside of that, they happen to have more resources because of them being the majority than those of minority and those that are minority, there's only a small subset of people that it's impacting me at those particular institutions and sometimes some things don't need to be justified, you know, so...

DR. PEARSON
I like that answer. And that's something else my mom taught me was like, sometimes you just don't even justify things with an answer. It's not worth your time.

DR. WOOD
Because if you do, you get into, you know, corners of: Why do HBCUs exist? And it's because, you know, they didn't want to teach us to read and write. And so they were individuals that wanted to teach us to read and write. You know, those people that taught us weren't always people of color. You know, there are other champions. So, yeah, I don't know. There's nothing that prevents them, too, from joining in. I have a very good male friend who is a white male that was a part of NSBE leadership, very high up and still gives back. And he teaches. He decided to move out of civil engineering and move into teaching. And now he teaches out in California, in L.A., impacting mainly people of color because that's his passion and he's a white male. So...

DR. PEARSON
Absolutely. I want to encourage our audience to follow you. You have a very active Twitter presence at Light Up the Fire, is your handle there. Your Instagram handle @SOSSENA24, that's S O S S E N A 2 4. And then they can look for Sossena Wood (no s; it's Wood) for your LinkedIn profile.

DR. PEARSON
I enjoy reading your posts, checking in on the research that you're sharing with everybody. You shared a post that I'd like to read; and it may take me a bit, but I tried to edit it to kind of shorten it but it's, everything in here is just so powerful. So I'm going to have to read the whole thing. So bear with me.

DR. WOOD
OK. 

DR. PEARSON

You said, “Completing my doctorate required every bit of patience and grace. My strongest traits were, ironically, what I lacked towards the end. I was ready to fight, quit and say my sword-cutting goodbye words. But God placed an incredible group of coworkers, family and friends around, and he silenced me. He said Focus. So I placed my head down and persevered to the finish. During the last three slides of my defense, I cried tears of joy, because I began to see that this sacrifice was not in vain. I am beyond grateful that God chose me to go through this process, because he knew that he could trust me to share His story. He knew could trust me to share His goodness and inspire others that they, too, can do the same. I am staying the course, and I am bringing sunshine wherever I go because of God's grace. That's why this head shot (she has a picture of her beautiful headshot there) that's why this headshot is so special to me, because it shows my happiness and appreciation of how far he has brought me. Here I stand as the first Dr. Wood that my family has ever seen, from Landover, Maryland, to Carnegie Mellon. Who would've thought that this young girl who struggled in her undergrad days would have soared through her doctorate to pursue a career as a professor at Carnegie Mellon University? #GRATEFUL #HEISNOTDONE #MELANIN #BESOMEONESSUNSHINE #LIVING. And I just absolutely love that post.” And I see it got a lot more reactions and interactions than you expected. 

DR. WOOD
It did.

DR. PEARSON
Tell me about that. And in particular, your Light Up the Fire handle on Twitter. I'm sure that had something to do with this story.

DR. WOOD
Yeah. So in strange ways, oh, my. It's all connected. And when you read that, you know, it humbled me because sometimes you need to hear that, you know, even though you put that out there, you need to hear it yourself. So I'm smiling, I'm smiling, reminiscing about, you know, writing that and one day it just hit me. So sometimes it just hits you, just like you just need to put this out there. And so I'm putting it out there just thinking that is going to be something small, maybe a few colleagues, and that thing went like wildfire. You know I'm like, whoa, you know, and it just speaks to the fact that some people just need to keep on pressing whatever they might be doing in life or they just need to hear something positive, you know, that they too can make you know, you can keep going. You can keep pressing and light up the fire. That was a handle that was actually started with me being national chair of NSBE. So, the first time I ran for national chair, I didn't want it at all, but I took it out of the fact that when I ran, my true ambition was just to share my story of my struggle undergrad days and just to showcase myself as, you know, a testimony that you can do this, there are so many of us that can do this and we can reach back and make sure that there are more of us. From that point, I guess that was 2012, I decided that that was going to be my platform, that whatever I do, I'm going to make sure that the experiences that I had, even though they were better than what most people, what most of my colleagues, when I in was high school experienced, I want to make sure that theirs is better, there's a better world. My living shouldn't be in vain. And while I'm here, whatever I can do, I'm trying to make sure that there are more people like me. You know, there shouldn't be a 1 percent. There should be much more. So... 

DR. PEARSON
Absolutely. 

DR. WOOD
Whatever I could do to share my story, I take advantage of that.

DR. PEARSON
Yeah, and I think one thing is being able to be just open and honest and transparent, because I think sometimes people, I know I experienced it as a faculty member, when I would advise students and I would, if I saw them struggling and I could relate to them on a more personal level, I would share my story with them. And it's like sometimes they were shocked because they see people with Ph.D.s and think, oh, my God. They just coasted through life. And here they are sitting on these thrones. And sadly, in some cases, some of our colleagues do have the mindset, well, I got mine; you gotta get yours. You know, they went through hazing. You got to go through the hazing, too. But they don't realize all of us did not necessarily. First of all, all of us didn't necessarily just kind of float through. And then secondly, there are those of us who want to say, hey, this is how I overcame this. And let me help you. And I think that is so critical. And being able to share that, yes, I struggled. That's nothing. I mean, when you look at the most successful people in the world, they will talk about their failures. And honestly, I think that they're only failures, if you don't learn something from them and grow, so...

DR. WOOD
I agree. 

DR. PEARSON
Yeah. We have to be able to acknowledge those struggles and let people who are coming behind us and following our footsteps see that you know, that things are real. I was talking to my daughter. My daughter is 16 and she has this perception that I have just been always this perfect little somebody in different areas of my life. Now, some stuff I'm just not gonna talk to her about.

DR. WOOD
Right.

DR. PEARSON
Yeah, but in school, you know, I've had to tell her, you know, where I've struggled and where I've even failed. And she's like, mom, you? You know, like, yeah. So that's why I can talk to you from a been there, done that. I'm going to try to help you avoid some of my stumbling blocks, because some of them were avoidable. Some of them were unavoidable. But where I can help you avoid them, I can and work can help you overcome them... and you mentioned hurdles before, and I'm so glad you did, because that's another thing that I talk about, is how sometimes we can let things that are really hurdles become barriers. And I distinguish between the two. And in that hurdles are designed to be overcome. 

DR. WOOD
Yes. 

DR. PEARSON
And so there are some barriers that if we just approach a little differently, can become hurdles and there are hurdles. I think that in our minds, we can convert to barriers that are insurmountable

DR. WOOD
Yes, I totally agree. I think one, you know, for this generation and even for older people, they need to hear that. So I think your daughter's they're a generation, generation where they want honesty and you know. They want the raw...

DR. PEARSON
Too much sometimes! 

DR. WOOD
Too much! But they want that sincerity. And I think that that is difficult sometimes to adjust to them, you know, and so, if it isn't honest, a lot of times they're oh, why that's fake. like Well, how do you know just if that's fake? That's someone preserving something that you have to wait to get to know them. But I do think that going back to the point that is truly important to sometimes in the post you made me think of this, too, just fit, you know, so I think a lot of times we want to solve the solution. We want to fix it. We want to answer. Sometimes you need to stay stuck, you know, just for a little bit so you can appreciate. And I think that's kind of what's happening right now. 

DR. PEARSON
Yes. 

DR. WOOD
You know, so we are going through a part in life where we just have to listen. You know, we just have to take introspection. We have to to let someone or something, you know, whatever your belief beliefs may be. For me is God, that's, you know, greater than you, just do what he needs to do to fix things. You know, I think then in my Ph.D., that's where I was and I'm like, hold on, you know, that one-on-one last conversation with your adviser, where you get to a point where you know more than they do, you know. And I'm like, look,  I done said this so many times we cannot spend any more in conversations. You just need to let me set this date and we're done. But it's the caterpillar turned into a butterfly. You know, so you're more, and in that period of life, you just need to say you just need to be a part of the process

DR. PEARSON
Absolutely. And one thing I also want to applaud you on, and it is that how you openly profess God's role in you being who you are and you being able to accomplish what you have accomplished. I think so many times, it's almost like we're, I guess, muzzled sometimes in terms of being able to express our beliefs, if they're especially Christian beliefs, it seems. And in particular in the science and engineering community, because there are so many people who can't fathom that there could be a higher power. And if they can't prove it scientifically, then it can't exist. So keep doing what you're doing.

DR. WOOD
Thank you. 

DR. PEARSON
Yes. 

DR. WOOD
I appreciate that.

DR. PEARSON
So what's next for Dr. Wood? 

DR. WOOD
What's is next for me, I'm really hoping to land a position as an assistant professor. So right now, I'm a presidential postdoctoral fellow at Carnegie Mellon with hopes to potentially become a faculty member there or elsewhere. And so it really depends. I plan on taking my research, you know, going through the application process and applying and hopefully landing a position with a university that I feel like very well suits my needs. And so where I can grow and be me, you know, and I think that's very important. I have a big vision that I think is important and that research wise is needed and necessary. And I think there if I can land it, I have a lot of students that can have really great opportunities to thrive.

DR. PEARSON
Yeah. So now earlier you mentioned that your choices of undergrad institutions were based on wanting to be in the Northeast or in the south; So I'm going to just kind of put in a plug for the south, OK? And when is the, when does your fellowship end? I might need to start doing some recruiting.

DR. WOOD
At the end of 2021. So, I'll be looking this coming year. But at the end of 2021.

DR. PEARSON
OK. All right. I'm gonna put a pin in that. We will be in touch. 

DR. WOOD
OK.

DR. PEARSON
Thank you so much for joining us today, and kudos to you and all the best in your future.

DR. WOOD
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciated talking to you.

DR. PEARSON
I want to thank Dr. Wood again for joining us today. Remember to follow her on Twitter at light up the fire on Instagram @SOSSENA24, that's S O S S E N A 2 4. And also, you can look up her profile on LinkedIn. Just look for Sossena Wood (no s), Wood, without an s, and be sure to keep up with all of the fabulous work she is doing in engineering, specifically in the area of neuroimaging.

 CLOSING
Thank you for joining us today. Be sure to visit our Website, Engineeringchangepodcast.com to connect with the people and resources we mentioned on the show. You can also leave a message on our contact page if you have an idea for an episode or, if you have a question, ask and we'll be sure to get an answer for you on a future episode. Thank you again for listening. I'm glad you're here and I'm looking forward to engineering change with you.

ANNOUNCER
Thank you for listening to Engineering Change. Be sure to rate, review and subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen. Until next time, remember, the best way to change engineering is by engineering change.

Copyright 2020. Dr. Yvette E. Pearson. All rights reserved.