Ep. 43 | CEO Ken Bentley Talks about the Mission and History of the APGA

APGA CEO Ken Bentley joins us on this episode.

We learn more about how the tour started, the current status of the tour, and the future of the APGA.

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Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Transcript

Ken 0:00

Well, I don't really think you'll find corporations. I, I think it's gotta be the golf association. I think it's gotta be the west GA the PGA of America, and it's gotta be the PGA tour. I think they all have to get together because if you think about all the money that's in golf, and I also think golf manufacturers have to play a part. So they all got together and said for the good or the game, we're going to take cost out of the equation. And, you know, I think you'll see a whole different demographic in golf.

mac 0:42

Welcome to the UDP

Leo 0:43

podcasts can thanks

mac 0:45

for joining us. Well, thank you. It's

Ken 0:47

my honor to be

mac 0:48

on it.

Leo 0:49

So let's jump straight into it. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background. Personally. And then how you got involved with the APGA and, and the history of, of that

Ken 0:58

tour? Well, I spent 31 years at Nestle and a variety of roles. I retired in 2013 as head of the foundation and that's who USA foundation and vice president of community affairs. I started well, I'm actually, I'm chairman of the board of the farmer and farmers insurance, fire exchange, which has been a great experience. Since I retired, it's allowed me to stay in corporate America, but I started the APGA tour in 2010 after having a conversation with a buddy of mine, Adrian stills, who had played on the PGA tour. And I asked him why weren't there more minorities on a PGA tour? Especially African-Americans. And he said, when he was coming along, there was a tour that United golf association tour that allow guys like him to develop their games and to build some comradery. And he felt like if we could start something like that, we could get some guys on tour or at least give them the opportunity. So I got a grant from farmers and a grant from Nestle, and we started. With three tournaments on inner city golf courses with 40,000 total prize money. And if you fast forward to today, we'll have a 2020 we'll have 2022. We'll have 17 tournament's over 700,000 in prize money. A hundred thousand in bonuses. We'll be on four major championship courses, seven TPC courses. So we're able to give our guys a PTA tour experience and, and that's what I'm, I'm proud of

Leo 2:34

incredible growth. And just 12 years.

Ken 2:37

Yeah, it's been it's been amazing. Especially the last two years, I think we went from a $400,000 annual budget in 2020 to over $2 million and 22. So yeah, it's been tremendous growth. I think the heartwarming thing is that our players are playing. Willie Mack who won our tour championship last year, made two cuts on PGA tour, PGA tour events. You know, we've had a number of guys you know, make various tours so our guys are playing much. The other part of what we were trying to do with the APGA is to diversify the golf industry. So we've seen our guys after they retire from playing, go into responsible jobs in the golf industry, and that's something I'd like to pursue even more in the future. Hmm.

Leo 3:25

And how do you feel like so the 12 years and incredible growth, especially like recently, I'm sure it took a while, you know, those first eight, nine years to kinda grow it. But what do you think is the main problem to go back to your original question? Why isn't there a better representation? Have you gotten an answer going through this journey yourself, or do you feel like it's now going in the right direction?

Ken 3:51

Well, I think the two answers to that is yes, it's going in the right direction. But the problem we found we surveyed our players maybe three years ago and we found that only a small percentage had even been fitted for their. We, they were practicing on first tee courses. They hadn't gotten fitness evaluations. They didn't have PGA quality coaches. So we started a player development program. So we've been investing in our players. We, we buy all of them clubs. We find places for them to play. We pay for their club membership. We try to get fitness evaluations. So we're trying to give them the tools they need to succeed. So I think that was a big part of the problem is that they just really didn't have the tools to succeed.

mac 4:42

What's your Ken, what's your background in the game and how, what, and sort of, how did you get into the game and, and, you know, obviously this is a big endeavor for you and someone that you love and what, what you had that conversation in 2010, but how, how, how did you get into the game and how did you fall in love with it? And, and how does, how does that tie into what you're doing?

Ken 5:02

Well, I was a terrace Boyer growing up and so I played tennis in college and you know, that was the sport that I was in love with. And so when I was working at Nestle, I found that. The executives were all playing golf. And so I missed out on four hours of face time playing golf. So I decided just to get good enough so I could play with those guys. First time I played no, forget it. I missed the ball for, I would never do it again. And I just decided to try it one more time and I hit a great seminar. And fell in love with it. And I just fell madly in love with the sports stopped playing tennis, but I don't, my tennis experience stayed with me growing up in the inner city play in college tennis, but not really having the resources to make it as a professional. You know, I, I had to have a job to buy my rackets. I didn't really get to right coaching. When Adrian talked to me about that, it really resonated with me because I felt like, you know, maybe if I had had an APGA back when I was coming up, my tennis career, might've gone differently, but I just really wanted to give these guys a chance to be successful. You know, there's no guarantees, especially in golf, but all you want to do is to really give guys to opportunity to

mac 6:19

succeed. Yeah, that's great. I remember watching, I just watched that movie, the king Richard, about. Serena and Venus. So that was awesome. Will Smith playing, playing their dad and my kids loved it and everything. And just his tenacity that going door to door and go into all these instructors and actually went down the rabbit hole, reading about him. And what a, what a story. I mean, it's being able to provide those resources and open up.

Ken 6:44

Well, yeah, it's interesting because I had I was involved in a inner city tennis program when they started playing. So we gave them a. We actually helped them out too, when they were little kids like nine and 10, but everybody knew they were going to be great. I mean, that's that's kind of tiger woods kind of talent because everyone at, you know, six or seven new tire was in the great, in the same thing with the Williams sisters. But I had a, you know, a professor in college who was amazing to me when I was a freshman, I was the only, or the first African-American tennis player at UC Santa Cruz. And the first month I was on campus, I got a knock on my door and my professor was there with two tennis rackets. And he said, you know, I heard you were the first black player of UC Santa Barbara. And I went to a tennis shop and I don't know anything about tennis, but I asked him for two of the most expensive rackets they had, and he handed me these rackets and he said, you know, I just want you to have the tools to be sick. And here's a guy that really didn't know me. It was a big class that he didn't really know me personally, but he wanted to give me the opportunity to succeed. And so APGA tour. I don't have kids on the tour. I don't have relatives. You know, I didn't know these guys before they got on tour, but I think about my professor, Dr. North, and just the idea that he wanted to give me the tools to be successful. And that kind of drives me. So

mac 8:16

how, what are your, what are your thoughts then about tiger woods? What are your thoughts about minority golf in general? I'm obviously Mexican American and they used to call that Lee Trevino was the main max. And you're not allowed to say that anymore. Something. So, you know, and I grew up, you know, he built a couple of golf courses where I grew up in El Paso and you know, and kind of grew up on the border as well. And just seeing, and being a minority in golf. And then, you know, growing the game, I've built a business around, you know, around the game and people meet me and they're always like, you're the guy and it's kind of funny. But also in a lot of ways, thinking about, you know, how, what are your thoughts on tiger? What are your thoughts on. You know, you know, seeing, seeing the game. And I also think about Mexico a lot, and I think about Lorena Ochoa and then seeing Carlos Ortiz and answer. And then, and then the totally different stories. Carlos being from one Lahara from a wealthy family and, you know, answer being being from tech path or something like that. And he's from not from a bunch of money, his dad died when he was young. And so they're, they're so different stories. But one thing synonymous is I, I see the Lorena and I'm like, oh, Mexican golfers are coming up. Girl, the fact, you know, we're seeing obviously at the highest, the playing ability has gotten so much better, so many great players, the athletes. Why do you think that there, why do you think that that hasn't translated, you know, to more African-Americans or minorities on tour?

Ken 9:31

Well, you know, I think that. You know, tiger has chosen to focus on education. You know, if I, I think if tiger had a decided like Loreno right, Lorraina did. And Ernie ELs, I mean, Ernie ELs has had an unbelievable program in South Africa. Would junior players. But I think tiger decided to go in a different direction and he really felt like he wanted to focus on education. Now, if he had, if he had a decided like those guys did that golf would be the focus. I think you'd have a whole different landscape, but you can't really tell somebody how to spend their money or they're focusing on. He's done a lot of good through his foundation, but I, I do think, you know, tiger got a lot of people interested in golf. If you ask our guys why they got into golf and they'll tell you, they saw tiger win the masters, or they, they saw a tiger when a tournament on TV and he inspired them to get into the game. But the difference is. You know, there hasn't been that program that provides those resources. You know, I look at tennis like tennis decided a while ago that they would diversify the game. So they've taken costs out. So when a, the Williams sisters show promise and got really good, they didn't have to pay anything. And you see 10 or 11 African-American women ranked in the top 100 in the world. And there's a reason behind that. They took cost out of the game. So if you show ability, they send you to an academy, they pay for all your travel expenses. So cost is not a barrier golf hasn't gotten to that. You know, our guys are still trying to you know, get to a tournament you know, trying to get the right equipment. And until that happens, you won't see the influx, like you have seen it in tennis.

Leo 11:26

Yeah. It's interesting to, because I'm from Sweden and Sweden, you know, you have a bigger social network and a lot of the sports are subsidized by the government. And so, you know, they have like the government gambling site is pouring a lot of money into sports. And so. You'll have a little bit of more of an equal opportunity to play almost any sport in Sweden because of that, because it's basically like you pay a subsidized fee to be a part of a junior group in golf. For example, like I didn't come from money and I was able to be in a group. And junior group had a beautiful club. And it, it costs us better, very little. And in America we almost have to do that through corporate America. Subsidizing is that kinda the idea, right? Is like instead of the government stepping in it's, it's, it's a corporation stepping in to subsidize to give everyone you know, an equal opportunity.

Ken 12:25

Well, I don't really think you'll find corporations. I, I think it's gotta be the golf association. I think it's gotta be the west GA the PGA of America, and it's gotta be the PGA tour. I think they all have to get together because if you think about all the money that's in golf, and I also think golf manufacturers have to play a part. So they all got together and said for the good or the game, we're going to take cost out of the equation. And, you know, I think you'll see a whole different demographic in golf. I think you'll see just like tennis. I mean, tennis has completely changed that I got to admire tennis where the way they really made diversity a priority and you. In the game, you see it at all levels of, of tennis. So I think until the golf industry decides to do that, you know, it'd be a struggle for organizations like ours because the the USTA made that decision and the USTA funds all those programs.

Leo 13:27

So now when you have all these exciting tournaments at, you know, TPC sites, is, does that mean that the PJ's now working with you? Or how did that.

Ken 13:40

Yeah, the PGA tour. Initially in 2012 we started getting $20,000 in the mail. I mean, we, we had no involvement with the PGA tour and they just sent us a check in the mail every year. And so about four years ago, I got a call from. There chief administrative officer Alison Keller. And she said, look, we've been sending you this check. We don't really know what you guys are doing. Come in and meet with our executives and we'll decide whether we continue to send you the 20,000 or we'll up the spine. And so I went in and I presented to the commissioner and everyone there, and they dramatically increase their sponsorship. They, they provide the seven courses. They pay for our APGA Collegium program. And they, they support some of our operational expenses. So they've been they've, they've allowed us to dramatically upgrade our core.

Leo 14:36

So that was a big, that was a big, that was a big moment for you. I, I, I assume. Oh yeah,

Ken 14:42

that was huge. The other big moment for us was when. Decided to let us have a tournament on the north course when they were on the south course at the Torrey Pines and that, you know, elevated our tour, let our guys play in a PGA tour environment. And then this last farmer's open. Our final round was televised live. So that was the first time we were on live TV.

mac 15:08

That's amazing. And I have a question to ask about, you know, why, why focus on the professional golfers versus going to the junior and collegiate? What is it about the, you know, them actually playing for a living and then that, you know what, why not get them when they're young? And, and cultivate them from the junior and collegiate level where there might be more programming, like programs. What's the, what's the main intention behind the professional golf tour and how that ties in.

Ken 15:35

Well, I'm glad you glad you asked that question. We had a Kirk triplet come out to one of our events and Kirk has played down the PGA tour champions tour for a long time. So he watched our guys play and say, Look, the guys hit the ball as well as anybody on the PGA tour, but there's so many variables and making it to the PGA tour that you have to consider the possibility that your champion, that you're trying to develop maybe 13 or 14 years old right now. So you have to do today. You have to make sure you're around when that 13 or 14 year old is ready for the PGA tour. And secondly, you've got to touch that person now. So we created a program called pathway to the PGA tour and, you know, I didn't want to create. A program of starting kids in golf. Cause there's so many out there. So we partnered with the first tee. Our guys give clinics to first tee kids. We identify outstanding first tee kids. We partner with Cameron champs foundation. Cameron champ has a tournament for the top minority juniors in the country, the mat champion rotational. And so he has identified. The top minority talent from a junior perspective. So we partnered with them. We ha we have eight spots in our tournaments for those kids. We provide some funding for a camera chance foundation. And then the third part of that is we've partnered with African-American college historically black colleges and universities who are sorely lacking. And resources. So we've partnered within not only to provide scholarship money for their golfers, but to provide technical resources. We, we bought a simulator for Florida and them, and we're going to put a similar. In a black college every year, because that's our real, our feeder system. So we created, we also created with the PGA tour, the APGA collegiate rankings. So just as AP ranks, football players football teams we're ranking the top black college golfers every month. And so at the end, The season, the top five players are scholarship for one year on the PGA tour. So we provide all kinds of resources for them, but they can play our tournaments, all expenses paid for one year. And then after the. You know, they played APGA tour. And then if they, if they qualify for Korn ferry will provide them funding for the first five or six tournaments that they play once they qualify. So now we can tell, we can tell a parent who has a 13 year old kid. We have a whole pathway for you to the Korn ferry, and then to the PGA.

mac 18:27

So awesome. It just reminds me of me and Leo have talked about this a lot, just talking about Sweden's program in junior golf. And I grew up like, you know, minority, but a wealthy kid on the border. And so my doctor, and so I grew up with all the means and I'd played all these junior events and I could tell there was a separation around 13, 14, where I got to go play in agg all over the country and stay in nice hotels and all the other kids that I was playing high school golf with, they just couldn't, they got to play local stuff. They never got exposure to the coaches and it was just. It was all about. I mean, I, I remember getting into fights with my teammates, like call me a rich kid and getting pissed because they knew they couldn't get the exposure I was getting, you know, or the guidance or the coaching. I went to IMG. And like, you could just see the friction and the jealousy and the, and everything else. And so it seems like it's socioeconomic, obviously not, you know, and, and not so much about, and, and also too about everything else. So there's a lot of. A lot of aspects pooling on it. But when I hear you talking about this vision that you have I just can't help, but think about these like soccer federations in these different countries where they produce really great soccer players and they're getting them when they're eight, seven, right. And there's all these feeder systems, like you're saying, and then it's producing talent and then it's like legacy is happening and then family oriented and it's like, it leads to everything. So I totally understand the system you're trying to create and how that can not just build, find the great champion, but it can build a legacy of opportunity for not just for the, for the kids that you're bringing through. Are these professional golfers like Willie Mack, but for their families in generational.

Ken 19:59

We'll see, I, I think for what I'm trying to create at the APGA tour, I mean, you're a perfect example because how many, you know, if we were overwhelmingly successful, we would get maybe two or three guys onto the PGA tour. But I think your example where you are, you took what you learned in golf. And you became a very successful entrepreneur. And so I think that's where our true success will be. We'll get, you know, if we could create more guys like you and that, that could take their lessons, that they learned, the idea of competing, you know, planning, budgets when you're out there traveling being competitive and then taking that to business, especially in the golf and. I think that's what we'll have a hundred, 200, 300 guys. And so, you know, for, for our guys, I mean, you'd be an unbelievable role model. We've got it. We've got a kid, a Hispanic kid. That's one of our top players here. Michael Herrera, you know, Michael was a basketball player. You know, growing up they had seven people in a one bedroom apart. South central LA, they moved to Marino valley. His father had a whole bunch of jobs and got him there, but until he started with us, he had, he played with youth clubs at Roger Dunn. His dad would go to Roger Dunn and buy a you set of clubs cause he couldn't afford a new one. And so Mike became a really good point. Never having to set up new clubs, never, you know, don't even think about having them fit. He got them out of the band and Roger Dunn and, and, and so, you know, I think for Mike, you would be an example that, you know, Hey, I can, if I don't make it on the PGA tour, there's a world of possibilities for me.

mac 21:57

Yeah. It's bringing back a lot of memories and I had. You know, I've seen it firsthand. I've played with these two twins. They're Mexican, Chinese, and they grew up on the other side of the border and water. And they were, they were like phenom twin players and really, really good. And their parents owned a floral shop in what is, and so they, you know, they, they were lower middle-class and what is like, but they were like really talented junior golfers from when they were five and they were in the news and things like that. And that there, my high school team, they ended up being my high school teammates. I remember my dad got really close with their family and like started sponsoring them when we were in high school and we played multiple junior worlds together there. We traveled together. My dad would pay for their clubs. It's just like bringing back these memories of that. My dad kind of fallen for the twins for Albert, Alberto, Manuel, and one of them went on to play college golf. The other one had back issues. That was probably the more talented one if they're listening to this. But but they both were great players and they're both still, you know, really solid golfers, but Alberto became a doctor and he's a physician and new dad and like, I'm so proud of him. And then Manuel's in sales and he's also like, like had a great career and an amazing life travels the world. And like so much of it was because of what golf gave them and what it opened their eyes to and their confidence. And I watched them like, from. Humble nervous kids and Chinese Mexican kids that like, we're like kind of always out of place and, you know, and then to like really gain their soul, you know, solidifying who their character was through the game of golf. And now we talk. It's just so interesting. And like there's, so they're, there's, they're like they're leaders in society and their fathers and they're, they're doing big things and you know, it without like the community coming around them and supporting them, they would, it wouldn't have been possible. And so there's, there's, there's so many cool stories like that. So for you to put that stuff in place, it's not commend you for it and, and actually put structure around it and, you know, and put, you know, put the corporations behind it and. You know, get these tourists to move on it and everything it's it's it's, it's no small feat.

Ken 23:58

Well, thanks. I appreciate that. And I love you to do your story of those guys because that's really the success story. A buddy of mine taped our telecast on Sunday and he has three boys and he had his three. Watch it, and they all watched it together and he sent me a video of the boys and how excited they were to see Tim O'Neil how excited they were to see Kevin Hall. I mean, the video was so inspirational because they're jumping up and down when they hit the ball. And he said that now all his boys want to do is play golf. That's all they talk about. And so I, I think. You know, for me. Yeah. I want to get a guy on the PGA tour and I want to in the worst way, and we're putting a lot of resources, but if I can, if those three boys are inspired to play golf and then inspire. You know, to, to do something great in society. That's a huge victory for me. That's like winning a PGA tour. Well,

mac 24:58

and that seems like you said, that's almost be almost kind of been like if going through this process because. Out of, you know, out of the thousand kids that are going to maybe even play division one, we've seen all the statistics, like here's who gets the high school, the high school, varsity golf here's who gets to division one golf much all the way to NAA or whatever. And then here's who actually plays on, on any sort of professional tour out of college. And then here's who actually has more than three years playing professional sports. And we see the statistics that are harrowing to say the least and. What happens along the way. I mean, if you get to any of those levels, you're a great player and you, you know, you have to learn all these skills and the majority 99% of them, aren't going to play professional golf for a living. But that process and that infrastructure and the support systems and the network and the feeder system, like you said, is really what's going to, what's going to actually have them enable them for future long-term careers and, and building network. And again, having con continual let continue a legacy within the game and what the game is.

Ken 26:04

And, you know, I also, this is kind of something that that's been a goal of mine for awhile, and I think golf really plays into that. So if we can diversify golf, just think about it. The relationships across ethnic lines and religious lines that can be developed. If you, if you think about going out to play golf and they put you with two people and how great of an experience that is, you meet all kinds of people playing golf. And so just as I was missing out on those opportunities, when. Playing golf and all the things happen in corporate America. I think society is missing out on it. If, if we don't diversify the game because you'll miss those human interactions, I've met some unbelievable people that I've been matched with playing golf. So you know, there, there's a lot of byproducts to what we're doing that I think will help make society. Absolutely.

Leo 27:05

So how does the membership work can, so, you know, obviously, you know, recently there has been some discussion around the tour, you know, because obviously there's a lot of exposure at Tori, which is awesome, but what comes with that is also a lot of debate. Right? And so the winner of that tournament, Patrick Newcombe. Korn ferry status. Like how do you look at that a situation where people are starting to ask questions about it? How, how does the membership work the, in the tour and, and seeing that on TV, like, what's your take on, on kind of the, the debate that happened after

Ken 27:42

that? Well, it's been two parts of the debate. One was that Patrick did have Korn ferry status does have full status on Korn ferry, but when he qualified to play, so to play at Tori, you had to finish in the top six in our Lexus cup standing, or the top three in our farmer's fall series. And so he finished fourth in Lexus cup and he had no. Korn ferry status. And he played our tour for two years. Didn't have a win for two years, but he got Korn ferry status after he qualified for tour. So, you know, I've, I've had people say, well, you know, why, how did he get to play when he has full status, where he qualified. Before he had stats and we'll look at that in the future. We'll take a look at that and see if we should make some adjustments. The other thing that happened when pastured one was a lot of people said, well, how could a white guy win a tournament desk for diversity? And I heard that a lot. And it brought up an interesting conversation because we got started basically because African-Americans were unable to play PGA tour events because until the sixties, the PGA tour had a clause that said for Caucasian people. So African-Americans were excluded. So when I started the APGA tour, I wanted it to develop minority talent, but I also wanted to make it inclusive. So if a guy like Patrick or land and lions white guys who, you know, needed to an operation, So they land in lions, grew up in, you know, playing inner city golf courses in, in Louisiana. So, you know, we, we felt like we wanted to include guys like that, but we wanted to have our mission and our player development program all around developing minority talent. But our tournaments would be open to anyone who qualified and anyone who believed in our mission. And so. I was surprised that that people were well, the reaction from Patrick when, because Patrick, you know, was a guy who just wanted to win a golf tournament who had qualified on his you know, on his merit had supported the tour for two years and was all about what we were trying to do with APGA because I, I

30:09

think

Ken 30:10

it showed. What we're trying to create to make golf look like America. So down the stretch, if you, if you think about it, here was a white guy battling, you know, an African-American player and the, the the guys right behind them. One was handicapped. Kevin, Kevin Hall's death. Another guy is 24. So really, if you, if you look at that, that's really what America is all. You know, guys battling all different races, all different ethnic backgrounds, you don't battling to win a golf tour. And then afterwards to see the comradery that they had, and Tim and Patrick were really good friends, but even though Tim Mr. Four footer, you know, he was happy for Patrick. So, you know, I really didn't want to create a tour and have. That were, that was exclusionary. Like the PGA tour was back in the sixties.

mac 31:04

Yeah. I

Leo 31:05

mean, it's, it's kind of you know, I think it, this topic well is complicated, right? Because there are no like, you know, straight answers, I think. And as soon as we talk about. It's gonna get complicated because it there's no easy answers, I think. Right. Because it's, you know, back then it was not equal equality. Right. And then now if you say, well only minorities can play on this tour then, you know, where are we? Where are we then? You know? So in a way you're just doing what's. And have true equality while still trying to support the minorities right. In different ways. But, so then I guess that leads us to how, because it's such a hard line to, to, to walk down. Right. It's, it's very fickle in today's society. How do you, how do you determine who gets to be on the tour? Right? Like if, because if, if you have, then people is determined whether they have. You know, not the same opportunities and circumstances as others, or how did they, how did they get approved for the membership?

Ken 32:17

Well, I think the. The criteria and we just instituted this before. Pretty much anybody could play an AP on the APGA tour. Cause we were, we were just trying to get players. And so now we've got more players trying to get on tour, then what we can deal with from all the publicity. So basically what we did is we took the top 30 in our Alexis cup standings, which is our regular season. And then we took the top 10 in our false. And those 40 players got exempted into 2022. And then we had an application process. So we asked the guys basically what their tournament record was, but also how they've how they've promoted. So what have they done to make the game more inclusive and to bring more people into game? So not only do you have to be a really good player, but you also have to buy into our mission and have district demonstrated that you have done that. And so I think that, you know, I, I use the land in lies, lions as an example. I mean, Landon certainly fits all that criteria and he happens to be. So we will, we will always be, we will always determine membership by that. So if you demonstrated those things and you believe in our mission, regardless of your ethnic background, you'll be accepted on our tour.

mac 33:43

So it's, it's more qualitative and subjective than it is objective criteria for it.

Ken 33:49

Yeah. I mean, it's w we looked at whether we should have a Q school, but then we would be, our tour would end up being just like any other mini tour, you know, if we just let guys in strictly on, because they wanted to play. And then we would be too far away from our mission of, and I look at 'em, I look at our tour kind of like a historically black colleges and universities, because they were started because of discriminate. Right and unequal education and all that kind of stuff. But now anyone can go to an HBCU and you'll see that their, their their, their student populations are more diverse than any college in the United States, but their principles are still the same. They're designed to meet. African-American communities better there schools talk about African-American culture, but anyone could go to their schools if they believe it. Sean Foley is a classic example. He went to a black college and Sean will tell you what he learned and how his view of life chains. But, you know, he went to a HBCU under those kinds of guidelines, but so I think our tours like that.

mac 35:05

So why, so why do you on, on the website it says to you require a PGA tour player signature. What, why, why is that?

Ken 35:11

Well, I think that all that does is test your playing ability. So, you know, guys can guys can say, Hey, you know, I'm a, I'm a two plus two or whatever, but if you got a PGA tour, Member PGA of America members, somebody to attest to your playing ability. And that's why we did it. We just wanted to make sure that we had somebody to attest to their playing ability. And in your mind

mac 35:39

with this being fixed, it's, I, I, it's so fascinating to hear about the tour and how you do it. And there's so many idiosyncrasies. That's why it's like, not someone couldn't see at face value and they try to make an assumption about it without talking to you and hearing this you're like, so. Much you're up to four and there, so it's much more than a, than a, than a professional golf tour.

Ken 36:01

Well, I was talking to a reporter yesterday and, you know, kind of, we've heard from sponsors, some sponsors who say, well, we aren't sure what you do with the money and which that bothers me when we spent 250,000 on player development, buying clubs and stuff for. But what makes us different too, is we had a guy who had back problems on our tour. Could didn't have health insurance, couldn't afford to go to the doctor. So we pay for him to go to the doc. Another guy it was played on our tour for awhile, was going to the bathroom, every two or three holes. And we found out that he had colitis and never had been treated for. And so we flew them to LA, got a doctor to treat him, spent four or five days in the hospital and has no problems now, but we had to pay for that treatment, you know? And so if you look at other mini tours and other tours, they just provided an opportunity to play. I mean, we have to be involved in all aspect of our players. So, so, so take Willie Mack, Willie, max homeless five years ago, you know, had no place to live and he's trying to play professional golf. So, you know, I, I think our stories are just so different than most many tours that our services have to be different. So we can't just provide prize money.

mac 37:29

Well, and it's, it's it's so it's so much about vision, I think. And I think that from building my business for the last 10 years, A lot of people would say, well, like what's your end game and what's this. And what's that. And if you get to talking about it, the vision of the business, it's, it's almost better to have like a big vision and not necessarily having an agenda and have good intentions, right. Then you, that creativity can come out and all these other things can be filled out over time. If you have the luxury of that. Right. And it seems to me like that you have a grand vision for this, but there's still so many blanks to fill in. Which, which is kind of where I think that kind of suppressing the noise is going to be really important in getting towards your goals. So that that being said, what, what are, where do you see this in 20 years? Where do you see this in 20 years from now? What do you, what would be the dream kind of land that the advocates to our lives in and like, how does it, what, what what's happening in 20 years and what kind of, what kind of legacy do you want?

Ken 38:24

Well, hopefully I'm here at 20, but I won't be, I won't be doing a PGA tour that's for sure. But, so I kind of look at it in five years. So in five years, I'd like to, we have a definite goal of getting at least two players onto the PTA tour. That's a definite goal in five years, but also, you know, I'd like to see in five years, A whole bunch of guys like you, you know, guys in the golf industry doing really well and not just wanting to get into industry, but wanting to make a real impact in the industry. Cause we talk about that. You know, our goal is not only to have guys on the PGA tour, but to have guys win on the PGA tour. So we'd like to have guys when in the. Industry, but the other part, I think to have to bring greater diversity to the game, we're going to have to have a women's tour. So I'm really focused in the next year or two to starting a women's APGA that's something I really gotta, I really am focused on doing that. I don't think we need more tournaments. I actually don't think we need more prize money. I think we need more money in our player development program. You know, I'd like to build up the mental part of it. I really would like to build up the, the fitness part of it. Cause our guys, you know, our guys are, if you look at them, they're in good shape, but they're not in good golf. You know, they don't understand how you need to have certain muscles like you guys do your fitness. I think our guys need to understand that that has to be the mental and the physical, the fitness part has to be as important as hitting balls and habit, a golf coach, a swing coach. So the next five years, I don't see myself. Putting a lot more money into, to tournament prize money, having more tournaments, but I see putting a real focus into player development and that involves the mental and the fitness part

mac 40:24

of golf. That's awesome. Well, and again, I'll say this, you know, on this pod too, I mean, I'd love to help you any way that we can with what we're doing. And then obviously my story I'd love to share it. Oh with the tour members and anybody else of interest. And you know, I've, I've, I'd love to talk about it cause it's been a crazy journey. And then at the same time we do, you know, we're, we're still a scrappy, even though we have about 50 of us and we're the largest golf performance company in the country. We're still, you know, we're scrapping and building this thing and we're still in the early stages, but any way we can help with the tour and provide resources and education and guidance. And, you know, I really, I really empathize a lot with division and now I feel it I've seen it. So I, I, I love it. And I, I want to just kind of let you know here that our supports there

Leo 41:09

hopefully, and hopefully hire some people in the future as well that played on that PJ.

mac 41:15

That would be totally.

Ken 41:17

Yeah. Yeah. I know Mack. I'd love to have you do a zoom call with our guys and to tell you, you know, just to really tell your story and, you know, I think it'd be inspirational for them.

mac 41:30

Yeah. Answer questions too, and everything for diverse company. So it's, it's I'd love to talk about anytime you want to do that. Let me know. And I'll. Okay.

Leo 41:39

All right. Great. Thank you so much for joining us, Ken. I'm sure we could've gone a lot longer, but I think we went through a lot and I learned a lot more. So thank you for everything you've done for the game. I think, you know, it's, it's awesome to see the growth and it's clear that it's just going to continue, so appreciate you joining us today.

Ken 41:59

Well, thanks. Thanks you guys for having me and for all you guys are doing to grow the game of golf. I appreciate.

mac 42:06

Thanks Jan ending. I think of a lot more of these, so appreciate it. You later. Bye.