Ep. 36 | Jeff Pelizzaro on 18STRONG, Golf Fitness vs. Golf Instruction, the Best Golf Instructors, and More

Jeff Pelizzaro (@18strongjeff) joins us on this episode.

Jeff is the Co-Founder of 18STRONG and Host of the 18STRONG Podcast. He offers online training programs for golfers, and has cultivated numerous conversations with industry professionals for many years. He was named Golf Digest’s 50 Best Golf-Fitness Professionals in America.

In this episode, we discuss the importance of golf fitness and how it compares to golf instruction, who the best instructors are, how golf fitness has changed people’s lives, and more.

Jeff's Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Transcript

Mac 0:17

Welcome to the urban golf podcast day. We had a special guest, someone who has a podcast that I respected bunch. and everyone knows if you've listened to the previous podcast with us that I'm not a huge fan of podcasts. So, Jeff Pelissero with 18 strong, really amazing, uh, amazing guy and, someone who's really helped cultivate a lot of conversations around golf performance and, and someone that we respect immensely over here. UDP.

Leo 0:41

Yeah. And I think, I mean, I remember listening to Jeff's podcasts early in my career, and I know a lot of our staff listens to him, his podcasts as well. So, you know, it has a bit of a pretty big impact, when you have a podcast for that many years and have incredible guests on for that many years. And, you know, an impact that goes through a UDP and all our staff and, and for me, especially, you know, that's why it was so fun to have Jeff on and, and kind of talk him, talking about his experience, having a podcast for this long and, and being in golf fitness and has a background in PT, but coming from soccer and not necessarily background in golf. so I really, enjoy the conversation with Jeff. His podcast is 18 strong and it's been running for many, many years with all the biggest names in golf. And so, yeah, we're getting into a lot of different topics, golf, fitness, training, golf, performance, golf coaching. So this should be a great episode for anybody that loves golf and wants to improve.

Mac 1:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Jeff is, Jeff is world-class and again, someone who. Because of the amount of conversations he's had because of how ingrained in the industry of golf fitness. He is as a consonant, professionally, someone who provides a lot of insight, and who has, has, has been able to see the trends and the fads through and understand what the, what, what is the fun of what are the fundamentals and what are the keys to providing a high level golf performance experience. And. And what are, what are some of the aspects that, you know, that, and, and, and nuggets that we can take away and apply to our careers, to our professions and to ourselves as players. So,

Leo 2:23

yeah, and I, and the last thing I'll say about Jeff is just, I think he is a great. Example of, you know, having a beginner's mindset, you know, coming from soccer and not really having a golf background and just getting into an industry, learning, being curious, asking questions and being humble has, you know, has really created his success. And so I think we all, we all can learn from that and just being curious, humble. And excited to learn from other people it's such a great weapon to have and just never stop and always feel like, you know, you're a beginner. Therefore you have unlimited potential because you're going to continue to grow forever.

Mac 3:03

It's fine. Leo, everyone enjoyed the urban golf podcast with Jeff Bell's era of 18 strong.

Leo 3:17

well, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us today, Jeff, I'm excited to talk to you because you have an interesting career. You've, you've interviewed hundreds of industry professionals over the years. Why don't you kinda talk to us a little bit about your background and kind of how the podcast started at 18 strong podcasts. I mean, you've written a book on golf fitness, where, where did it

Jeff 3:41

start? Well, it all kind of started. I don't have any real background. Like I grew up playing soccer, I didn't grow up playing golf. I went to school for physical therapy and, played a little soccer in college, but then, you know, realized I wasn't gonna be, uh, any kind of a professional soccer player. And so decided to go the physical therapy route and practice in the clinic for a few years. I think six years I was actually in the clinic. And then, I randomly kind of got tossed into the golf fitness world, was able to, to start working with somebody who had started a golf fitness company here in st. Louis. and at the time I was. In a management position, a bit role in a big clinic. And it was, it was a little overwhelming and I was kinda getting burnt out on the actual, like PT side of it. So ended up going over to the golf fitness world. And that's where I really fell in love with the game of golf. I think I was 28 years old and had probably only played. Maybe two or three full rounds of golf at that time, I'd played in scrambles and stuff like that. But, fell in love with the game, fell in love with the idea of taking my knowledge of the body and how the body should move and, and all of that, and started working with these golfers and, and learned a ton during that time. And then, I mean, as far as 18 strong. How it started, you know, it was one of those things where I can kind of remember being on a golf trip with a bunch of my buddies. We go on a rider trip. I ride a cup trip every year and I was talking to one of my buddies and he was telling me what he was doing in the gym for his golf game. And I'm like, man, that's, that's all the wrong stuff. Like that is absolutely not what I would have you do. And like, it started getting me thinking about like, how do we get this information out to. Two more people. So two more of the golfers themselves, as opposed to, you know, we had TPI at that time where we were starting to learn more about how we as fitness professionals could, could impact the golf world, but we weren't, there wasn't anything out there yet to really be able to tell the golfer what they should be doing. And so I was like, you know what, maybe I'll I just started listening to these podcasts things. Maybe I'll start a podcast and start interviewing some of these, these guys that I'm learning from. And. You know, sends out some random messages to guys like Jason Glass and Damon Gattard and Allie Gilbert, and lo and behold, that was almost six years ago. And now we've been able to talk to so many incredible people in the world of golf, outside of the world of golf people, you know, just people that love golf and have different takes on, on different experiences and things. And it's just been an incredible ride.

Leo 6:11

And so how, I guess if you can conclude it in one way, like the podcast, what's, what's your biggest takeaway with interviewing hundreds of, of these individuals that are in the, in the industry? even though it's, you know, it's centered around golf fitness, it's been, you know, you've been talking to all kinds of people. Is there a, is there a cap of say that you're seeing with these people.

Jeff 6:34

Well, first of all, they're all really, really smart. You know, like everybody it's cool because you know, everybody has their own thing. Everybody's got their own expertise and their own experiences, but what I also learned and sometimes it, it, it almost. It's hard when you're interviewing people, especially in the same kind of realm as you, and they've got different knowledge than you do. because it's almost like, Oh, I don't know that I don't know as much as, as this person or that person, but what I've come to find out is that, you know, like, Everybody's got their expertise and there's different ways to do all of it. So, you know, if you take a hundred golf, fitness professionals or a hundred teaching pros and you ask them to create a program for, for one golfer, you're going to get a hundred different ways to do it. And. They can all produce results. They can all be very, very good. And so it's, you know, I think in the golf for all the fitness world, sometimes people get hooked on like, what's the right way to do this. And I'm finding that first of all, there's not a right way, but also this, it tends to boil down to just sticking with the simplest. Answer to, and, and the experts that I have come to to really know and learn from, they end up boiling it down. So simply for their students, for their clients, that that's why they get the results because the client now understands what they need to do there. They know that that it's the consistency of doing those simple things and not all the crazy complexities that, that many of us kind of latch onto. You know, when we're looking at and going down the rabbit hole of finding new information.

Leo 8:10

Yeah, as you're learning, you're you get kind of complex in the beginning and then it takes years to be able to, to explain it in simple terms. It's really interesting. We had a golf coach, Jeff Smith on the call with our team, And he was just amazing. he coaches Patrick Rogers, Scott Pearcey and Aaron Weiss. And he got the question, you know, where do you feel in the all aspects of golf performance? Where do you feel like. We need most improvement or there's room for most improvement. And he said golf instruction, because any swing flaw out there, you, you you'll have one guy on tour winning with that swing flaw. And I, and I want to ask you, do you feel like in golf fitness, it's a little bit less arbitrary because. and Lance Gill assessed this, right? You can create a hip mobility in so many different ways, as long as you get the result. It's not, it doesn't really matter how you do it. And so for those, for that reason, then golf fitness is a little bit almost ahead of golf, golf instruction, because golf instruction, there's so many variables and in golf fitness, it's a little bit more like, okay, well, if you have internal rotation of the hip, you got the, you got the mobility. Is that how you see it?

Jeff 9:28

Yeah. I mean, I think that, from the body standpoint and looking at, you know, if you just break it down simply and kind of take away the, the actual, like golf mechanics of it, and you end up looking at like, okay, how's this joint supposed to move? What's this joint supposed to be able to do and does it, or doesn't it. And you can kind of look at it that simplistically and then kind of tackle those areas. That's one way where I think, yeah, we have it a little bit more. I'm not going to say black and white because anything with the human body is definitely not black and white. And I think that if you went and tested a lot of. Tour players or, you know, maybe even testing a lot of the champions to our players because in many ways, those are the guys that, that I'm seeing. And I'm sure you guys are seeing it at UDP. You know, they're all gonna test a little bit differently and we're going to see commonalities and we're going to see, some differences. But I do think that if you look at it just purely from the way that the bikes it is moving, does this joint do what it's supposed to do or not? That gives us a little bit more freedom of being able to. Tackle that with a little more confidence. But yeah, you're right. That like, you look at a golf pro you look at all the, all the swings on tour, you're going to find a variation of all different kinds and it ends up being well, do they get the ball or do they get the club where they need to be when they're hitting the ball? Do they get it with efficiency and force? And can they do that consistently? I think, I don't want to say our jobs a little easier than a golf pro. because I think we also have to work on the other habits and things like that that allow these people to get the results they want in the gym or in the fitness realm. But, but yeah, golf instruction sometimes I don't envy envy the golf instructors because they have to kind of, they have to wave around quite a different, quite a few different ways of swinging the club or getting the ball where they want it to go.

Leo 11:13

Yeah. That's,

Mac 11:13

what's fascinating about coming through UDP is I remember, you know, you walk around and you see the golf there. It looks like to be a lot more, an emotional up and down in the, in the bays. And there is in the gym, you know, the gym, it's like, they're exasperated, they're having fun. They're, you know, everyone's on a progression. And it seems like in the Bay, you're like, I don't know where this, where the curve is right now, but, and that's what I find, you know, so different between the two.

Jeff 11:38

Well, something that's interesting between, you know, golf instruction, especially like if you, I have a live student they're taking a lesson, like results or results are immediate sometimes, or at least the way they see it, you know, like, Oh, that was a bad shot. What I do wrong? And sometimes, you know, sometimes it's just like, no, we're just, you just got to go through the repetitions of keep working on this thing. We're in the gym. It's not like you're seeing where the ball is flying when you're doing a split squat, you know, it's like, No, w we correct it a little bit. You, you did this a little wrong. Well, let's correct it. And it's like, okay, cool. I'll do that. But they get to see like, Oh, that ball, I just shanked that ball or that ball sliced, what am I doing wrong, Mack, how can, how can I fix it? And it's like, give it to me now. Right.

Mac 12:19

Well, you know, we talking to a lot of different golf instructors, measuring success is really, again, it's not going to be that instant thing. It's how, what does stuff look like over time? I think we were talking to, it was either Chris Mason or Sean Foley about that, about. How they look at it, like a business plan almost in a way where they're like, all right, what does it look like? What are results over this quarter over this year? And then that's how we're going to measure what, what, what performance is versus, you know, and the, and I think that dealing with a lot of novice golfers, like we do. they want to get something out of there, like, Oh my God, nine, 10 sessions. I got to, you know, and you're like, well, I would always tell people. I'm like, I've, I've, I don't know. I've taken hundreds of hours of sessions and thousands, you know, and I can still shoot 80, and like throw fits out there. So, and you want to be a scratch golfer and you want to do it in six sessions and you shoot 85 and you're not going to practice. And so really kind of getting people to understand what. How to actually measure performance over time and have that perspective. And then, and then that's, what's gonna make the work seem almost like you're doing building blocks, which it seems to be for me, at least more clear in the gym, with the novice golfer. but then you get them in the golf instruction space and it's, you know, again, it's, it's, it's constant push and pull to ensure that they, they feel like they're progressing. And so quantification of that, of that performance analysis is so important. I really want to be able to show them a graph, like, look, this is actually where you're going. This is, and that's where TrackMan's helped a lot. And, and at least being able to in, in a controlled environment like that, show them there's progress.

Jeff 13:49

Yeah, in, in the gym, you know, we can see changes in weight on the scale, you know, are they losing weight? If that's their goal, we can see, you know, are they increasing their, the amount of weight that they're able to do their exercises with? Are they increasing their presses and squats and stuff like that? So it is a little bit more of a, a long-term. Improvement that they're looking for. And they understand that I think in the gym, one thing that we found really with a lot of our guys and, and we have a new group of guys that we're working with, and one of the biggest things that we've been hammering home. And I, I would say this is probably one of the things that I got from interviewing so many people on the podcast that have been very successful either in their own career or with students is, is really hammering on the idea of creating. The identity that, that that person wants to become and really having them own what that identity is so that they can, they can figure out what they need to do in that moment. That they're when they're in the gym or when they're on the course and what they're working on, because. You know, if you have that identity, you have that vision. It's a lot easier to stick to the hard path and do the things that are, that are tough or do those extra reps or, or, you know, go out and hit a certain number of balls or work on whatever drill, because you know, that that's what that future identity, that future vision of you would do. you know, in, in our case, in the fitness world and you know, many times it's, these guys are looking to lose weight or get stronger. And so it's like, Oh, well, what would the future version of you do after you're 18 holes of golf? Is he going to have six beers or is he going to have one beer with his buddy and go home and, you know, maybe do some posts, round stretches or whatever. And it's creating a vision, creating that identity of who they want to be, where they want to go has been like. Just incredible for, to see the light bulb go off on these guys and see them stick to the dedication then.

Leo 15:39

That's really interesting because I mean, that's a pretty deep concept, right? Like, especially when you work with amateurs, because there is not necessarily a topic that, that is considered somewhat something that you'll like go over with a, with a 22 handicap, you know, because it is pretty prevalent and, and. And tour golf or, you know, elite sports is, you know, who do you want to be? You can have a, you know, you can, Michael Jordan can be your, your idol, but you got to show who you are in the world and, and believing in that. And so you're saying that you're doing that with any amateur golfer. And so it really just comes down to behavioral psychology.

Jeff 16:23

Yeah. Is that? Yeah, I mean, really, you know, I was listening to your guys' first episode Mac. I heard that you have a background in psychology and in school, and that's what my undergrad was. And, and to be honest, I, I took it because it was kind of the fastest way to get to my, my graduate level stuff, in physical therapy. But I would say that like the psychology piece and the interpersonal communication piece has played out so much more beneficial than my I originally was going to be a biology major and. Decided that I hated biology after about two semesters, but the psychology piece has, had allowed me to like really connect with the clients or at that time connect with my patients and like understand, you know, in a physical therapy clinic. Usually these people are coming in with some sort of injuries. So if they're going through some sort of pain or sometimes I was having to inflict pain on them in certain exercises or rehab setting stuff. and then, you know, just being able to. To talk to these guys and put empathy, empathize with, with the golfers, you know, what are their struggles? What are they working on? So, yeah, it's like that psychology piece. I know it sounds deep, but it, I mean, that is such a huge part to all of this. I even think that it was a huge part in those people actually getting better from back pain and neck pain and things like that when, when you're just able to kind of help them and give them some light and give them some, some promise that things will be better. Or that they are going to get better or they are improving. it makes a world of difference.

Mac 17:49

Yeah. Something I find interesting. It's like you look at, a lot of people talk about, how I know TPI. We'll talk about a lot of great girls will talk about how, you know, how sort of, I don't want to say ignorant, I guess the, the golf instruction population is, and I guess maybe he has actually used those words in some ways. And, You know that they just are, Oh, to look at a golf swing without having, you know, the understanding of the body, you're kind of looking at an empty canvas there. And it seems to me like, w you know, you come from a soccer background. Like why, you know, why do you do agree with that, that from other sports? And we were talking to Mike Bentley, who's one of the founders of blast motion. And he was talking about how he came from, uh, like a, race car, F1 background, and how much diagnostics there are there in order for them to make decisions. And, and really do you feel like it's just golf seems like, obviously. Past 30 years old, when people start making some disposable income, it seems like that that's the biggest market for people that want to get better at a game as they get older and they have the money to spend on instruction and training and equipment and all that stuff. Do you think there's, do you agree? Do you agree with that there there's, there's a big thing missing, or do you think the golf industry in some ways, you know, especially the, the, the, the more sophisticated coaches and instructors are doing some of the best jobs out there than any sport? I didn't mean that. What are your thoughts there?

Jeff 19:08

Yeah, I think it's tough. I mean, there's, there's so many different instructors out there and there are so many different, you know, camps of ways to, to instruct. I mean, I think that, like I said earlier, the best instructors that I see are the ones that, that take their, their golfer and they figure out how they can break it, break it down into as simple. Of instruction as possible, especially for the guys that, like you said, the demographic that is really kind of the biggest one is the guys that are in their thirties. And beyond that now maybe have a little income that they kind of get hooked into playing. They love playing. They, they start to belong to a club. These aren't guys that are going to be tour pros, right? These are, you know, maybe at most, these are guys that are going to shoot for the club championship, but I mean, most of the guys I see aren't even at that level, these are guys that just, they want to get out there. They want to play better than their buddies. They want to hit it further than their buddies. But I mean, if you really dig deeper and I, and I like how you guys talk a lot about kind of digging into the deeper side of, of what's behind what they want. You know, they want to wake up and they want to be able to play a full 18 round, full 18 holes without their back hurting. They want to, they want to be able to play and not get injured. They want to, to be able to play and not be sore for three days. and so I think that the instructors that focus on actually teaching these guys how to score better and enjoy the game more. As opposed to getting so technical and so worried about actually their golf swing and the mechanics of their swing. But, but teaching these guys, you know, what are the real ways that you need to think around the course? What are the, the different decisions that are going to shave five strokes off of your round? Because I'm sure Mac, you could attest to this, that you bring most amateur golfers in and talk to you and go out on the golf course one time and show them a couple of things on making better decisions out there. That guy will score better for the rest of his life. Most in most cases, because he never had been taught that, you know,

Mac 21:06

is there, is there a side of it too, that, you know, I, at least I learned when I was a young instructor getting started in the game, even though coming from college golf and everything else, I found that I would make things really complex, as I got going as an early instructor. And then as I, as I got more along the road, I'm like, huh, there's a lot of easier ways to say this. There's a lot of easier ways to get the job done here. And I think, I think I hear, I hear most great golf instructors in a lot of ways. They say I've made a lot of mistakes and I caught people worse than the first part of my career. I wouldn't, I wouldn't go that far, but I mean, it's just really kind of what, you know, you think it's hard or it's co it's complex to make, make it simple, or is it something that, you know, in our search for. Our search for understanding, we, we make it complicated. What are your thoughts on actually having a depth of knowledge then to then make it simple for people?

Jeff 21:53

And that's a good question. I've never really thought of it that way. I think that it must be, it must be complex to make it simple because you know, that's what I see. It's almost like we see this. This framework of what coaches go through. Like they, they get into it and they start digging in and we all start to talk this, like this jargon of, you know, kind of teaching how smart we are as the coach and trying to look for things to fix when maybe they don't really need to be fixed. and I think that that comes with a lot of experience in and repetitions of working with people of saying like, okay, I don't, I don't need to plug every hole. I just need to figure out what are the main things and how can I get this? This person to respond. and I think that that comes over time where you it's, like you said, you learn how to, you learn how to communicate it a little bit better. You learn how to express, you know, maybe what that person specifically needs. At first, when you're beginning as a coach, you kind of might start teaching everybody the same. But everybody learns a little bit differently. And so as you get older, you start to figure out like, okay, this person kind of needs a little bit of, of tough love, or this guy really loves the mechanical stuff and really responds well to it. And so I think we figure out, you know, different ways to push different buttons. And so ultimately I think that does take, it does take time. And I think that that is a challenging thing and the best coaches then continue to progress and, and understand that and realize that. The way that they can communicate better to those people and get that message across.

Mac 23:24

I love that. It's almost like you have more, you have more, you know, case studies to base your, fees. You're on a lot of ways. You're making a thesis every time you have a new student and you're like, all right, this is, it's a very educated guess on what the best path of action should be, whether that's in fitness or like you said, it's not. One thing, Jeff Smith said that he, you know, that I don't necessarily agree with. He's like, there's two ways to do a quadruple bypass surgery. And like you said, the human body's a lot more complex than that. It's not just black and white. you know, you, you put a S you have a stimulus on to whatever, and then how that responds it. Yeah. There's, there's some good estimated guesses, but you're dealing with an organic, subject. So in a lot of ways, We are just making educated guesses as we're developing people. That's what I always tell us. New student that comes in. I'm like, we're going on this journey together. I'm not your instructor. I'm your coach. And we're going to, this is going to be advance. Sometimes we might go backwards actually for a couple of weeks. Just because I might have not had a good, you know, my theory might've been wrong. and I'm going to be humble enough to tell you that this, this wasn't the right direction, but we learned from it and we're going to get better from it. Do you, do you agree with that or do you think it's just a procedural progression?

Jeff 24:31

No, I think he definitely. You definitely end up learning from it. And, you know, as a, as a young coach, as a young teacher, a young instructor, you know, many of us would go to these continuing education seminars. And again, I think this is the natural progression. You go to a seminar, you learn kind of a system, you know, maybe, maybe there's a certain swing guru that you're learning from and you learn their system. And so for a while, it's like you start to look at everything through that system. And you start to, implement everything that they're doing, but eventually maybe you go to another, another course. Maybe you go to another certification. Now you start bringing all these different pieces into. And so it's like, it's like that one system, wasn't the whole answer for you now for that instructor, that's their culmination of their work over years and decades of experience. And so you're not going to be able to end up. Teaching that exactly the way they are or being able to pick and choose the things that they need, but it was great information from you and you learn from it. And now you, then you go to this other education seminar, or you learn from another coach and you take some of the things and then you end up packaging it up. So it's now it's your message. And now it's your way of teaching and now it's your style. And as you grow it, you just become better and better.

Mac 25:41

You find my last question. Before I pass it over to Leo. Do you find that on the fitness side of things, do you find where. you know what, we've talked, we've talked a lot of instructors and they say the better the player is, and the further they go along, obviously there's outliers here, but they get, really discriminate to new information. the better they are, the more successful they are. They're very like, okay, like what do you got? And I'm either gonna absorb it or I'm going to toss and they do it relatively quickly. do you know, do you find on the fitness side. The that same thing where, or do you have a lot more acceptance, from players like, Hey, here's the program we're going to go down. Right. I trust you. You're a professional or is there a lot of convincing, for the better players in terms of, you know, getting on, on, on your program?

Jeff 26:24

I personally haven't run into that where people are really like discriminant about. The plan that I'm bringing forth to them. But then again, I'm not, I've only got, you know, one PGA tour player that I have really worked with. so I'm not working with, you know, the, the Rory McIlroy is of the world or the tiger woods of the world where, you know, they. They've got medical teams. They've got these and they've kind of seen a lot of this stuff. Again, a lot of the guys that I'm working with are more that demographic that we talked about earlier that they're, they're a real guy there. They're working, they have a family, they have kids and they're coming in. Maybe they have some background in training or sports. And so they've trained a certain way, but for the most part, When they come to me, they, they know that they're seeking out advice from somebody that has a PT background and somebody that has a fitness background for golf specifically. And so I haven't really come into any real situations where somebody is like, no, that I, I don't believe in that or something like that. Yeah. But, and if I would, I would kind of figure, I would ask him why, you know, what the situation is. And we would find a way around it. It's not like I I'm dogmatic on everything that I have to do. I think that again, the best coaches can adapt and adjust to.

Leo 27:38

Yeah. I want to quickly just go back to the simplicity, discussion, because I think it's so fascinating. I love this new, saying Eli five. I explain it like I'm five and you know, I follow this Reddit subreddit, and I there's all these, like, you know, how does an airplane work? And in a way you think, Oh, it's dumbing down the concept. Right? Like explain it to me. Like I'm five, but actually the most, the best answer is the most intelligent, right. Because the person that. Formed. It has a deep understanding in the subject. And so I saw this quote simplicity before understanding, simplicity before understanding complexity is ignorance, simplicity after understanding complexity is genius. And so I think that's so interesting because becoming a great coach takes decades. And for every decade, hopefully your message is getting more and more simple. And at the end of it, a five-year-old should probably understand it as well. And I think that's so beautiful every time I hear, you know, a doctor or a scientist and they speak, They, they talk about a concept like a five-year-old can understand it. It's such a beautiful, beautiful thing because it's like it's formed over decades of understanding and study. And it's the opposite of this new doctor syndrome, where you're just, vomiting information. And I think that's pretty common in golf instruction, especially, I'm probably, you know, in all aspects of golf performance, but I think that, that concept of boiling things down and making it simpler. Everybody wins. And so I think that's such a beautiful thing.

Jeff 29:29

Yeah. We had a situation. This was probably about a month ago where we were working with one of our guys in our group and he's really working on kind of the weight loss piece of it, you know, he's, he works in the construction business and over the past, I don't know, probably five, 10 years. He's probably gained a good 30, 40 pounds or so. And so we've been really working on, you know, the diet piece and, and he was kind of doing things right. But we knew that. That he wasn't quite sticking to the program and we, again, try to keep things very simple. And so, one of our coaches, Tony, who is often on the podcast as well, and he, he's a guy that I lean on for a lot of my nutrition stuff. And, um, Tony just looked at me and looked at this client and he said, okay. So what's one thing that you're doing every day or almost on a weekly basis. That if you put a grade school kid in front of you and asked him what's, what's bad about his diet, he'd be able to tell you. And he's like, man, like, and like, it was that simple, right? It was like, he knew that. Okay, well that kid would tell me to stop drinking soda every day. It's like, Boom. Let's start there. Stop drinking soda every day. It's like, you know, we, we want these complex answers as, as people trying to learn as people trying to get better, we want, we think that it's the complex answers that are really gonna give us the enlightenment when it's like, Oh man, it's. You need the, you need the big rocks. You need to take care of those things first. And then you can get to those little things that, that make a little bit of difference. And I see that a lot in the golf fitness world where, you know, we get guys that they want all these fancy rotation exercises. They want all these, these things that they see on Instagram, where they're doing these special exercises. And I'm like, Man you're going to come in here and you're going to do split squats and hopefully, maybe some chin-ups and some presses and pushups. And like, people will look at you through the window of the gym and they'll have no idea you're a golfer, you know? And like, that's what I love about it because we're just going to, we're going to hammer on the simple stuff. And then, you know, we, there's a place in time for some of those other things, but if you're not doing the big rock things, what's the point. It's not going to last.

Leo 31:36

Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. That was a great example with that, weight loss client. I mean, it's so interesting because is the, golf fitness world is so, I think misunderstood still and it's, it's getting better. I feel like. but we're essentially. And, and, and this is kind of our philosophy, right? Like we're just getting them ready for golf and preparing their, their body for golf. And in most cases they're not prepared for golf and that is why they have swinging issues and, and scoring issues and all kinds of issues. And so that's why a simple assessment and figure out, figuring out what's stopping you. from performing at your level and then the training, it's just preparing the body to, improve in their skill, which is a golf in a faster way. Is that how you see it too? Which includes pushups and squats.

Jeff 32:33

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think in many ways I'm kind of preparing these guys more for, not just the course, but for their overall life in general. Right. Because you know, I I've seen so many guys come in in their fifties and sixties. They've been sitting at a desk for the past 30 years and their posture is awful. They. Can't touch their toes. You know, they're kind of rounded over and hunched and you look at their golf swing and it's the same exact thing. You know, you see all these same commonalities and you get them to try a couple of these exercises or take them through an assessment like you mentioned. And it's almost like. Eye opening to them like, Holy crap, how, how did I get this bad? Like, because they haven't tried any of these things. They don't realize that they can't do them anymore. You know? So like some of these guys to get them to do a real pushup and do it with control and form it's they're like, Oh my God, I used to do 50 pushups a day or whatever might be, and now they can do two and they're not good looking. so for me, I'd say. I want to get their body prepared almost for, for everything first, because I know that that's, that's the most important thing in their life. Ultimately like they might come to me because I have a golf background and this is where again, it might be a little different because I'm not working with a lot of the collegiate players or I'm not working with a lot of the guys that are, that are, you know, going on tour or on tour trying to win their club championships or a USDA title. These are guys that have, you know, they've got a lot of other responsibilities. They put there, they're here because they love golf. They know that we're gonna talk off. They know that we're going to do the things that it's still, they need to get better in there for their swing to be able to play. but you know, sometimes it's, I almost feel like I suck them in with the golf part. And then I just, then we get them better for life once they're in.

Mac 34:28

Oh, that's it's we're so in alignment there and just, you know, We 2% are not even 1% of our clients are the calmer because of the world and the UCLA golf team and stuff like that. But really the majority of them are exactly what you're describing and what I'm slowly becoming, or quickly, quickly becoming. but, I, you know, in so much of it's like, you talked about how it's not so sexy, the, the, the workouts themselves and, and, and one thing we found ourselves doing a lot, you know, we have a staff of 40, 40 employees now. And we find ourselves so inundated with like psychology, like you're talking about. And what are your thoughts on like, kind of, do you give them some, some of the Instagram rotational stuff? Cause what we tell our staff was like, Hey, you know, you've got to get I'm a little bit of showmanship because, and then you got to lure him in and then you got to humble them and show them that they can't do a regular pushup. And then, and then you got to hit them with the fundamentals for the majority of it. And then you got to, you know, it's just a, such a song and dance. So, what do you, what do you think about that?

Jeff 35:23

Oh, for sure. I mean it's you got to give them what they want to, right. I mean, they're here. I don't want to say we're, we're also entertainment, but we kind of are, you know what I mean? These people are coming in. They're spending a lot of time with us. They want to get what they came for too. So there is a give and take of, you know, Hitting them with the fundamentals, but then, you know, giving them some of the, some of the rotational stuff, letting them do the speed sticks, you know, maybe having hit a couple balls while they're here, those kinds of things. and there's no harm in that whatsoever. I think, I think that that helps create a bond too, just between. You and the client, but it allows them to, to get a little bit of all of it. I remember talking to Ben shear about this too. and he was saying the exact same thing. Like these, these people are seeking you out because you have a golf background. You have to give them something Golfie whether it, whether you think that it's the best thing in their program or not, because if you don't give it to them, They're not coming back, you know, like they can go down the street to club fitness and get a guy to give him a workout, but they're here because of that for you. And it's, it's our job to figure out, okay, how do we, how do we make this beneficial? How do we find the right times to do that and put that in their program and make sure that we're not just doing it to do it too. because there's a ton of rotational stuff. There's a ton of those exercises that do make a difference and that do come into play. It's just, are you doing it just for show or are you doing it because they're actually going to get better with it too.

Mac 36:52

There's so much psychology involved in that. I mean, it's at any level, whether you're a general fitness trainer, golf fitness trainer, coach. You know, you really, you want people to be having fun and want to come back because a lot in a lot of ways, the fundamentals of what they can get are the fundamentals, but having it be I've thought about that. So deeply going from being one instructor to then building a team of, you know, multiple disciplines, having coaches and instructors and physical therapist, and I'm like, damn, how do I have a physical therapist? Like. Create the same vibe I was creating in the, in the Bay doing instruction. And it's like, Oh, I can unify the music. I can unify their uniforms. I can, you know, I can design the space so that you feel like you're in the same spaces. We can talk about how we greet them in the parking lot. There's aspects of it that we can simulate and that we can, you know, we can replicate, I guess. but then it boils down to, again, at the end of the day, once you taper it all the way down on all the, all the showmanship and everything on the front end, you really getting down to the brass, which is work. And it's, it's really not that sexy to, to put in hard work.

Jeff 37:54

Yeah. I'm curious for you Mac, after being an instructor for years playing very high level golf, and then now being able to bring in those other components, what have you seen has been the difference with the golfers and the performance and what they get out of the. The combination of all the therapies versus maybe the days when you were just doing straight golf instruction?

Mac 38:18

Well, I think in a lot of ways, the, you know, I was doing it all already. what, what was not recommended, you know, stay in your lane kind of thing. So. I was already doing it all. I was working them out. my instruction was very physical. It was like a lot of repetitions. Typically at the end of a session, clients are like, fuck, I need to start working out. Uh, I need, you know, and I was playing around, I was always giving them different equipment to try out so they could see the difference as part of the development know that there's between different weights and different heads. And so I had a few different vendors that I was working with from Mira to. Tour edge to Mizuno I'd at some top in class at different levels. but in a lot of ways I was doing all that stuff with them and then they couldn't move. So I'm like getting in there and, you know, doing as much as I could do with them. You just basic stuff, open books, just getting them to like, here's how you open up. Here's how you, you know, show me, can you touch your toes? Can you get into a deep squat? Just the basic, basic things. And they couldn't do the majority of that population. Couldn't do it. and then the really athletic guys, young athletic guys, also too, there was aspects about their athleticism that weren't built for golf, which is why they were there with me. So a lot of it, I was doing it all. and so in an effort to make the business better, At one point, I was like, God, I was a golf instruction company. Next thing you know, it felt like a medical company at times, you know, where there was, you know, it was almost like we were outnumbered by the fitness and the physical therapy side. And I'm like, God, this isn't what I wanted. I really want, we're talking about, you know, we're not talking about golf anymore here. Right. And so it's been like an up and down, evolution where in an effort to make it better, I got, you know, multi, multiple disciplines and, It lost it lost cohesion. And then that's been the effort. The last probably three, four years with Leo has been like, how do we create cohesion across these multiple disciplines? And then provide really what was that first part of what I was, because it was very effective because I knew enough about fitness enough about the body enough about psychology. to then kind of be their one to one go-to guy. but in a lot of ways, the, the efforts to expand it and make it a team and then scale it, it got worse and it got, it got fuzzy and it got disconnected. and, and that's been our journey as these last four years has been, how do we, how to create cohesion across multiple disciplines and then across multiple locations. and how do you have all these different personalities working together? And Lee always says we're like one of the. Biggest, if not the biggest golf performance teams in the world. And it's kind of crazy to think that we've only been around for seven, eight years, that you can, that there's that much of a void, but it's just a Testament to how difficult it is to actually have all these different kinds of people from all these different education backgrounds working together to provide what was like a one guy show at one time.

Jeff 40:59

Do you guys find that there, when you bring in golf instructors that they, is it harder to kind of get them on the same page of instruction styles than it is to get the therapist or the fitness guys on the same page, fitness wise?

Leo 41:17

That's a great question, because you know, like max said, it's been a, it's been a challenge to, to get, to create that team that is fully like every player has a team around them. And I think we've, we've improved so much over the years and we always talk about, is it easier because basically we're going completely against the industry in terms of like staying in your lane. So we want all our coaches to be golf performance coaches. Right. So they coach the person. and you need to know a lot about golf club, fitting, psychology, fitness, recovery coaching, and four, because of, or 95% of golfers, you don't need that extreme high level of knowledge. Right. and so what we've found is that, Actually when you know a lot about golf performance, the, the client has more, respect for you basically.

Mac 42:14

Well, what the

Leo 42:15

bottom line now

Mac 42:16

on what I've seen was interesting is actually I've seen a big difference between the fitness coaches and yeah. And the golf instructors. And here's the main difference. It's the golf fitness trainers. They are golf fans. Like, they're so happy to be there. Like they're like, Holy shit, look at all this stuff and golf. We talk like the golf instructors are like, you know, they're, they're above it almost in a way, like it's, it's, you know, golf fit. If you get to go to a play, you know, you're at an athletic trainer, you're a physical therapist and you are you're you shoot in the eighties. And you're coming to come work for you, GP. It's like, Whoa, this is Disneyland, man. You're like, Oh my God, I got the golf instructor right here. I can call him on his shit. I can, you know, I, you know, I got all the data I need. I don't have to. You know, all this disconnect that the enterprise is forcing us to speak the same language. Like if you come in as an athletic trainer, a physical therapist or a club fitter, actually that you're in a candy store. It is incredible. So the hardest piece for us has been the golf instructor. there's

Leo 43:18

a little bit more jaded

Mac 43:19

that not only just Jayda and there's, and then there's a generational gap as well, that 30 and over, you know, they're hard. 25 and under they're coming in, like, this is the way it's supposed to be. So there is a difference in generation. And then again, between the golf instructors or the. Biggest pain in the butt. There's no doubt about it because you got to humble them. Typically there, they were good golfers too. and they still are. So they're a little cocky there. They really, most of them want to go teach on tour, coach PGA, tour players, and then they'll want to coach the novice golfer. So you got to teach them like, look, Hey man, let's look at Hank Haney story. Let's look at Butch Harmon story. Let's look at any of these guys' stories. They've put in 10 to 15 years of teaching the novice you're 28 years old. Like you're not going to even, and they crushed it and we're like timing, like they had mid-year success, like, and they killed it with all of their novice golfers as well. Like, so there's a humbling process. That goes on with the golf instructor that doesn't go on with anything else. There's a reality check that goes into it. and then, you know, at the same time, it's, it's, it's teaching. And, and again, like we were talking about that rollercoaster of teaching the novice golfer, there's a part of it where it is hard. And I, I think from watching it, I think it's harder. I think it's harder emotionally to teach a golf lesson than it is to take someone through a fitness session from what I've seen so far. and so yeah, there there's, uh, getting them all on the same page is, is, is the hardest thing. And so what we've voted down to is. The one thing we can get them on the same page about is like, you know, the 10 things that requires zero talent, you know, show up on time and all that, you know, you know, have your shit tight, you know, like, you know, have your shirt buttoned up, have your shirt tucked in, like, you know, be respectful to others and be compassionate. Like, so all the studies and all the research and trying to understand the science, it boils down us like building a community of respectful professionals that are hardworking and humble. Above, like any sort of scientific principles that bond, the, the performance matrix together.

Jeff 45:20

Love it.

Leo 45:21

So, what are your thoughts on staying in your lane? Because I was going to say, when we talk about it, like, is it easier to make a golf coach out of a trainer? You know, we basically, like, we look at these people and we're like, ah, he's not going to be a coach, even though he plays for their coaching job. And then we like. You know, we've hired trainers that we literally forced into coaching. And now they're full-time coaches. It sounds terrible, but it's really not that bad, but, uh, you know, it, it's easier to have a white blank page. Someone that doesn't really know golf instruction because. Like max said, it's, it's like we can teach them, a system that we have in place and they can follow it and they don't have too many opinions. And then they also have a great understanding of fitness. So they become a very well versed coach. So we don't stay in our lane at all. do you stay in your lane?

Jeff 46:15

That's a great, great question. I think, first of all, to go, go back to your thought of, is it easier to make a fitness person into a golf coach? tough, very tough question to answer, but I think that the fitness person typically has, A decent background, depending on what their, what their background is, but usually has a decent background in, you know, the way the body moves, the way that, you know, the way the joints move, the kind of biomechanics kind of a thing. So I think that they have maybe a little advantage there as far as then trying to go in and learn a little bit more about the golf swing and, and. Coaching the golf swing because they already kind of know how to coach body movements. whereas I think the golf instructor, they come from more of the golf instruction background will come from even more than that. You know, as far as like the PGA program of learning, all the other stuff about like running a club and those kinds of things without having a whole lot of body expertise or understanding of the anatomy and physiology of the body. So I think in those respects, you could probably say I'd lean it. A little more towards the side of going from fitness pro to golf coach being a little more of a natural progression. I don't know if easier would be the right word. as far as staying in my own lane, I feel like I've gotten back in my lane more over the last five years, I think. so in 2008 is when I kind of got into the golf fitness world and I was, again, just enamored by. You know, being able to help these golfers and going what's going on with the golf swing and went and gotten, you know, a couple of certifications on, you know, learning from some teaching pros. And I almost think I kind of started to step too far over the line as far as like trying to help them, these guys with their golf swings and, and you know, what they were trying to do. And. I just felt like I was, I, I didn't have the knowledge that they needed. I didn't have the experience that they needed and if I want it to be really good on the body side and the fitness side, I wasn't spending enough time. Learning about the golf swing. So for me personally, I felt like, man, I, I just need to kind of like step back a little bit, get more in my lane. Plus I was working really closely with a lot of the teaching pros in the area. And so it wasn't like I had a, a facility where we had track man and things like that, where I was in this environment where I was talking and learning from guys like, like Mac and, you know, guys like you, Leo, where, you know, you guys are all in this situation where it's an environment of guys. Always talking golf swing, always going over these, this system that you have. I didn't have that. So it was like, Oh, you know, I kind of felt on the track of all I'd read something or learn, uh, learn a little something and then try to implement it. And it was like, I probably shouldn't do that. Plus I was working with golf pros in st. Louis at all, maybe had their own different style. So then one of their. One of their players comes to me and I start telling them a little bit about the golf swing. And they're like, well, that's not what my coach is having me do. And I was like, I can't send them back to that guy with them saying that, Oh, well, Jeff said I was doing this wrong. So I decided, you know, because of the way that my business is set up and the way that I'm working pretty independently with these clients, when I'm in a gym setting, I decided I'll stick to the fitness side. I'll consult with their coaches and figure out what they want. Me to work on and how we can collaborate there and then we can go all in. But I decided not to over.

Mac 49:39

That's fascinating you say that because we asked Jeff Smith where like, what's the, you know, one of the coach, one of our staff asks, you know, what's the biggest obstacle you've had getting to where you are. And he said having a place to do it, and having people around me that were like-minded. And he kinda like told all like our young staff, like you're in a good spot, you know, to have all these people around you that are passionate about something similar to you and have a place to express yourself because I know me at 24. I was on some like crappy driving range in Austin. Like I had a port-a-potty as my bathroom. It was a hundred degrees outside every day. I'm like bucket, but I'm so pumped. I mean, 24 grand a year to be the manager of this driving range. I got six employees. They're all. Part-time, they're all part-time alcoholics. And, and we have to handpick the range every night. And I remember just doing, cause he goes, you can keep a hundred percent of your lesson income. And mind you, the only driving range in South Austin, you know, pretty much that served Austin, Austin. There's one in North Austin, one in South Austin. And so it was packed all the time and, Pet a lot of people to go cherry pick from and coach, but I, you know, just to have a P like a pasture that they ended up developing all over anyway, and these crappy balls, I was just so pumped to have a place to teach that I was wanting to have that job and then kind of gain my experience, get clients and, and learn. Cause you know, there's nothing like everything you're talking about. Interpersonal skills. There's no book you can read. That's going to replace, you know, having a bunch of your own personal case studies and coaching, right.

Jeff 51:08

For sure. For sure. You can, you can read all the books you want. You can go to all the seminars you want, but until you're actually in front of people, talking to them, getting feedback, learning from your mistakes, making big mistakes. yeah. There's, there's no getting around that part of it.

Leo 51:25

Yeah. Yeah. I have, uh, three quick ones. And I know that you asked this question, a variation of this, this in your podcast, but who would you want to, you pull up to the golf course. Who do you want to take a lesson from? What do you want to play with? And then who do you want to have a beer with afterwards? And it could be alive or dead.

Jeff 51:46

Okay. Who do I want to take a lesson from? man. he wasn't a, an instructor, but I think Ben Hogan probably, just the, the guy's work ethic, the swing, just the way he carried himself. I just think that that would be, that would be fascinating. So who don't want to take less from Cincinnati

Leo 52:06

since swing to

Jeff 52:07

decent, decent swing to right. who I want to play with? Was that the next one? Yeah. I think I want to play, I would love to play with Rory. I just think Rory would be, he'd be a lot of fun. I I've always liked him. I've liked how honesty is. I like how he kind of lets you know, how, how it is. I would love to just sit and watch him swing. All day long. I got the chance to stand about 15 feet from him here in st. Louis when he played at the PGA championship. And I got to watch him tiger. And Justin Thomas tee off from, you know, a pretty close range. And it was like, man, those are three swings that I, I took pictures. I slow modem. I broke them down. It was pretty cool. So, but I think Rory would be fun to. He'd be fun to play with because, you know, just even talking about some of the fitness-related stuff and sounds like he's very much into the mindset stuff too, you know, especially with the last couple of years has really kind of gotten into what's what's this all about and what does he, what does he want out of playing? I think he'd be, he'd be a fun one. And then the last one, who would, I want to have a beer with? I've always thought that grand McDowell would be a great guy to sit and have a pint with. Um, yeah. I don't know why he just kinda always has a smile on his face. Oh. Seems like he'd be a really fun guy to hang out with. so yeah, I'd say Graham McDowell.

Leo 53:24

I think he has his own beer too.

Jeff 53:26

He does. I think he does have his own brewery.

Leo 53:29

Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's applicable. no, that's awesome. I mean, have you guys seen Rory's like Peloton stats. Like

Jeff 53:38

I haven't seen it, but I've seen him just sweating profusely after one of his, his rides.

Leo 53:45

I don't know what he's doing, but I have a Peloton I've been trying to get close to his numbers and it's impossible. It's like, I dunno. I mean, it's, it's really impressive. Well, when you can guy has a work ethic,

Mac 53:58

but when you can combine, that's what I find so cool about Rory is that, you know, you can combine someone with that amount of talent. that can keep it cool and be so down to earth. you know, that's what makes him so special. I don't think I'm, you know, you talk about Ben Hogan and how difficult he was to be around or tiger or stuff like that, you know, and they have such talent and work ethic and drive and determination. I was just remember reading savvy via sterols biography right now and just so polarizing. but Rory seemed so agreeable. and, and, and have that amount of talent even that holds him back in any way.

Jeff 54:32

Uh, he's done. Okay. So far, I think, you know, I don't think so. I think that, you know, I, I think him being true to true to himself and true to his own personality is the only way to go. you know, I think that was one of the knocks on tiger back in the day was he was so guarded and. And so tight now, of course tiger woods, greatest player of all time. So kind, it depends on what you, what the ultimate goal is there, but I think, I think Rory's where he's done. Okay. There. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I, I do want to throw in two more. You've got me thinking about this exact answer. So first of all, your buddy George ganache is I would love it to take a lesson from, from Jordan. You said you had him on the show recently. We've got our show quite a while ago, and I just think that would be entertaining. And, as far as. Either one playing around or, or having a beer with, I'd have to say Arnold Palmer, you know, just, it sounds like he was just such an amazing and amazing person did so much for the game. so he he'd be another one I had to throw a couple of wins.

Mac 55:34

Georgia is really entertaining. I got, I got the luxury of watching Leo get a lesson from George and it was weird.

Jeff 55:42

It was

Mac 55:44

just, I don't even know what he was saying half the time. If I knew they were having a good time. It was hilarious.

Leo 55:49

I think nontraditional is probably the right way to explain it.

Mac 55:52

Sorry. Yeah, it was weird. Uh, no, it was hilarious. It was just more, I mean, it's so entertaining just the way that, and that's the thing. A lot of people don't understand about George is that he's, he's a real coach. He's not a swimming instructor. when you talk to him about the players that he works with, he's big on stats. He's big on proximity to whole. he's, he's constantly researching how to improve his players. He knows how to work with a swing identity, similar to Butch Harmon. you know, someone has their own identity and he cultivates that identity Wolf is an example of that. But, but really big on that. And then really big on promoting people's confidence, whatever level they're at. That's what I've noticed with him in Leo. A lot of the stuff you say to him, he was just like, Aw man, you could. Fucking hit it over that highway, just like making them laugh and kind of like talking about how good his move was. And, there was a lot of positive reinforcement, and you know, and he knows that, you know, I think he really understands, you know, what coaching is. so his, his persona online versus the reality is, is so different. Like typically

Leo 56:49

one, one of the, my favorite things I've ever heard George say, and I don't know where I heard it, but he said, With my juniors. And I think this is profound to me with my juniors. I'll have them go to school and eat by themselves, at lunch. Right. And not care about that you're alone. And that people look at you to condition them, to not care. About what people think of you. And I thought, okay, this, this, this is, you know, if we're talking about developing a champion mindset, this is really key. And that's w I mean, it's not about golf anymore. You're developing, uh, psyche. And, that says a lot about George. I think it's, it's much deeper than, than, getting Gucci and, and shallow out. So, so. Thank you so much, Jeff. One last thing that I want to mention, because I loved what you said about your client that, wanted to lose weight. And it made me think if there's anybody out there in the industry, whether you're a fitness trainer or a coach, two things come to mind. For me, that probably changed my career is, is one book called switch by chip and Dan Heath, talking about behavioral change and then motivational interviewing. Um, am I, which is, for me, it was a game changer. And if there's anybody out there that want to learn more, look up motivational interviewing and the book switch. Thank you so much for taking the time. Jeff.

Jeff 58:24

Absolutely man. This was a lot of fun. I'm glad you guys invited me on and have to do this again on our show.

Mac 58:31

Jeff would love to have you out here to LA as well. And you know, once we can get back into operation just for you to come and see, see the way we kind of make the, make the juggle work every day.

Jeff 58:40

Oh, man. I'd love to see it. Like I said, I'd be a kidney candy. Share their place.

Leo 58:45

Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, take care and hope. Hope you and your family stay safe

Jeff 58:50

right back at you guys. Thanks

Leo 58:52

Take care. Bye-bye.