022 How Plants Work. So, You Want to Grow an Avocado Tree? (good luck)

Today we find out how plants work. And how you can have a successful garden with even less work by helping those underground workers. Washington State University Horticulture Professor Linda Chalker Scott, author of the book, "How Plants Work", talks about the amazing intersection of plants, plant roots, your soil and your mulch … once again proving, your working too hard and spending too much money on something that nature perfected a long time ago. She tackles a few more garden myths, too, something she's famous for in her two earlier books, "The Informed Gardener" and "The Informed Gardener Blooms Again."

This episode is brought to you by Smart Pots. Visit smartpots.com/fredfor a money-saving offer on the original, award-winning fabric planter, USA-made. Listen to learn how to win a free, Smart Pots 6-foot long bed! (By the way, if the podcast service you listen to doesn't have a ratings/comment section, you can send your ratings/comment here to enter this contest.)

Flowers contribute a lot to the fruit and vegetable garden. they can attract pollinators, hummingbirds, beneficial insects as well as adding beauty. One plant in particular is a pollinator magnet: the Peruvian lily, also know as alstroemeria. It’s also one of the longest lasting indoor cut flowers, too. As long as you don’t cut it. We will explain.

How’s that avocado tree doing in your yard? Unless you live in the milder parts of California and Florida, it’s probably not doing very well. We have tips for increasing your chances of actually getting an avocado tree to produce. Maybe. Well, probably not. But what the heck, you gotta try, right?

It’s all part of Episode 22 of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. Cozy up on the mulch and give us a listen. We will do it all in under 30 minutes.

More episodes and info available at Garden Basics with Farmer Fredhttps://www.buzzsprout.com/1004629.

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Transcript

Farmer Fred : 0:00

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by smart pots the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container it's made in the USA visit smart pots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's smart pots.com slash Fred.

Farmer Fred : 0:20

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information well you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred : 0:33

If you're listening to this while working in the yard, there are more hard workers nearby. In fact, they're right under your feet. Today we find out how plants work and how you can have a successful garden with even less work by helping those underground workers. Washington State University horticulture Professor Linda Chalker-Scott talks about the amazing intersection of plants, plant roots, your soil and your mulch. Once again, proving your working too hard and spending too much money on something that nature perfected A long time ago. Flowers contribute a lot to the fruit and vegetable garden. They can attract pollinators, hummingbirds, beneficial insects, as well as adding beauty. One plant in particular is a pollinator magnet, the Peruvian Lily, also known as Alstroemeria, it's also one of the longest lasting indoor cut flowers to... well, as long as you don't cut it, and we'll explain what we mean by that. Hey, how's that avocado tree doing in your yard? Hmm. Unless you live in the milder parts of California and Florida, it's probably not doing very well. We have tips for increasing your chances of actually getting an avocado tree to produce... maybe, well, probably not. But what the heck you got to try, right? It's all part of Episode 22 of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. cozy up on the mulch and Give us a listen. We'll do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go.

Farmer Fred : 2:04

My next guest has been on the program before she has written several books including a couple of my favorites, the informed gardener and the informed gardener blooms again. She has a PhD in horticulture from Oregon State University. She is Washington State University's extension urban horticulturist, and an associate professor in the Department of horticulture, and she has the thankless job of overseeing the Facebook page, the garden professors blog. You talk about answering tough garden questions, she gets them all. Linda Chalker-Scott it's a pleasure to talk to you and about your new book, how plants work,

Linda Chalker-Scott : 2:40

Fred, it's great to be back on your show again.

Farmer Fred : 2:43

Well, let's start with the the Facebook page which which I find painful, because I'm just glad I don't get those questions on the air because some people are asking some very tough questions on your Facebook page, the garden professors blog, but you have some help. In that

Linda Chalker-Scott : 3:01

I do. There's, it started out with just four of us. And we've expanded we've doubled the number of garden professors and administrators now. And when, when I when something comes about tomatoes, and I'm not tomato growers, somebody else who is in a tomato research, they'll jump right in there. So it's a wonderful resource for people that want science based gardening information.

Farmer Fred : 3:22

And that is the key for all of your information in this book, how plants work as well as your previous books. Show me the science.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 3:30

Exactly.

Farmer Fred : 3:31

And let's take an example of there's a lot of homegrown remedies for weed controls, one of which is vinegar. And even though it is an organic product, vinegar can be quite hazardous to your own health.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 3:45

Absolutely. The stuff that you get at the grocery store the vinegar in a bottle isn't really concentrated enough to do much damage to plants. I mean, sure, it might make the leaves wrinkle up a little bit, but I won't do a thing to the roots. You have to really get that horticultural acetic acid, which is much more concentrated than vinegar, and yeah, it's it's pretty bad stuff. You know, you get your face over a bottle of that and you can send your singe your nose hairs and hurt your eyes.

Farmer Fred : 4:10

And I believe vinegar is only a top kill product besides.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 4:14

Yeah, that's right. It really has absolutely no effect on weed with pernicious roots. And boy, I think most weeds have that and that's why they're weeds.

Farmer Fred : 4:23

Well, let's talk about roots. And that is a fascinating chapter in your book how plants work. It's called the Underground Railroad. And I thought that was a very apt description, because there's a lot of movement going around in the middle of the night that we can't see and during the day as well, but it is so vital to the health of our plants. And it's and it's not just roots.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 4:44

Yeah. And it's funny because I have to backtrack a little bit here. When I was in grad school, I avoided root classes like the plague because root is so darn hard to study. As soon as you start digging them up and expose them to light, you know, they're not going to function the same way anymore. But the nice part is, is Other people with much more patience that may have done a lot of research. We now know that plant roots aren't just these little isolated hairs down there on the ground are connected to one another and to other organisms, not primarily by fungal hyphy that just kind of act as these little highway interchanges as it were to take nutrients and other compounds and move them all through the soil system.

Farmer Fred : 5:23

It's rather amazing how water plays a big part in that movement as well.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 5:28

Yeah, if you don't have a well hydrated soil or if you don't have enough oxygen, in other words, you don't have nice porous soil with moisture and with oxygen, the whole system shuts down now you can cut it compare it to the traffic jam, nothing moves.

Farmer Fred : 5:41

It is so necessary yet it is probably the one component of gardening that most people get wrong. Plants are either over watered or underwatered. And a lot of people make the mistake of Okay, they're switching from sprinklers to drip irrigation Well, good for you. But then they go and they place That emitter next to the tree trunk. And in that underground railroad system, where would the water be better absorbed?

Linda Chalker-Scott : 6:08

If you think about root systems, that big pancake, which is what they really are in an uninterrupted soil, you know, you wouldn't have the water out away away from the trunk, preferably even away from the drip line because most of the fear roots you know, those little find root hairs, or roots with root hairs are taking up water and nutrients far away from the trunk. And that's where you need to really be putting the resources because that's where you've got the active root growth,

Farmer Fred : 6:33

and we both know and are both big fans of mulch. it can certainly help in a drought for conserving soil moisture. I like to tell people what the sacramento tree foundation advises as far as when you mulch a tree. Use the 444 rule of four inches thick of a coarse mulch like bark, keep it four inches away from the trunk of the tree and have it extend four feet beyond the canopy of the tree but I know that You like lots more mulch than that

Linda Chalker-Scott : 7:03

I do and has to be cautious you know the when you're doing when you're doing it the way that I do it that you're using pretty coarse chunky stuff. The coarse chunky mulch has a really great ability to let water and oxygen move through it so you can use 4, 6, 8, 10, 18 inches of wood chips for instance to help suppress weeds and keep soil moist. I've done this before and there is a lot of research behind it as well that that just improves water holding capacity and moderates temperature and and establish trees and shrubs just absolutely love it and it keeps the weeds down.

Farmer Fred : 7:39

Well when I win the California Lottery I'll be sure to add 18 inches worth of mulch around my trees because what is it 30 $35 a cubic yard? Well that's that's a lot of mulch when you're talking 18 inches deep.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 7:53

It is unless you get the and I don't know if it's free down where you are. But you know Arborists woodchips up here either cheap or free. And that's one of the very best coarse woody mulch that you can get.

Farmer Fred : 8:04

Well, that brings up a very good question because a lot of people are in that habit, if they see tree trimming work going on in their neighborhood, they might bribe the tree trimmers with a six pack or whatever, to get that load of chipped tree material for their own yard. But are you importing somebody else's problems?

Linda Chalker-Scott : 8:22

You know, you probably are, but you have to kind of take that with a grain of salt. So let's say that your neighbor or someone has had a tree chipped up that maybe had some kind of rot issue or some kind of disease issue. You have to realize that that wood even though it most definitely has that, that disease in it, those spores are everywhere. So you know, it doesn't really make any difference if you use as a mulch or not as long as you don't make the mistake of digging it in. Because once you dig that disease material into the root zone and start injuring roots, as you will with a shovel, then you'd open wide open and wide to infections, but just using it as a mulch. You know, your soil already has all those pathogens in it, they're just not active because hopefully, you've got, you know, very good healthy soil conditions well drained and lots of oxygen.

Farmer Fred : 9:10

There has been a story floating around for years and years where some people advise Oh, whatever you do, don't put mulch, don't dig mulch into the soil because it'll tie up nitrogen true or false.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 9:22

If you dig it in, it's absolutely true, because woody mulch is brown. So if he's thinking about compost and brown materials, doesn't have a very good C-N ratio. So putting into the soil, the microbes start breaking it down, they need nitrogen to do that they start stripping out the soil, but on the top of the soil, it doesn't have that impact in the soil itself. So the microbes are breaking it down and the soil interface for the mulch touches might have that deficiency, but just go a centimeter below that and the nitrogen is exactly the same as it would be if you had no mulch.

Farmer Fred : 9:58

There are some proponents Unlike Washington state, the soils here in California have tend to be neutral to alkaline. And if people want to grow Southern high bush blueberries here, they need a fairly acidic mix something perhaps around a 5.5 pH and one popular mix that a lot of growers advise is one third peat moss or coir (coconut husks). One third Azalea Rhododendron Camelia soil, and one third of pathway bark, small bark in a in a mix together and plant your blueberries in that, would that tie up nitrogen?

Linda Chalker-Scott : 10:33

Probably not because I think when they use that bark that you mentioned, it's composted. And the interesting thing about wood, you know, wood chip mulch or bark mulch is that when it's fresh, you know, it will tie it nitrogen if it's Incorporated, but once it's composted, it has a very good carbon nitrogen ratio. So you can go ahead and use it as either a mulch or amendment it won't cause a problem with your nitrogen.

Farmer Fred : 10:55

Linda Chalker-Scott, author of the book how plants work the science behind The amazing things that plants do.

Farmer Fred : 11:07

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Farmer Fred : 13:45

We're talking with Linda Chalker Scott Washington State University Extension urban horticulturist, and Associate Professor in the Department of horticulture at WSU and author of several great garden books, including the informed gardener. The informed gardener blooms again And how plants work, the science behind the amazing things plants do. Linda, we've been talking about mulch, and mulch is a great way to feed your plants, isn't it?

Linda Chalker-Scott : 14:11

You know, I like to kind of compare it to slow food, you know, the slow food movement is huge. And and I think that's a really good analogy. You use decent organic mulch, especially one that has some woody material that's really important. And microbes break down pretty slowly. And then as water moves through the soil, it takes those nutrients down to the roots. And so you'd have this nice, slow feed of nutrients at a rate that the plants and the microbes in the soil can actually use them. So you're not going to get issues with them over fertilization. You don't get watershed contamination, you just have this nice slow feed as your organic material breaks down. I think it's a great way to fertilize.

Farmer Fred : 14:49

And you have a great example in your book, how plants work of what you would find if you dug through that mulch and where the mulch meets the soil. And I recall you writing in the book about finding those little white hairs.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 15:03

Yeah, it really is fun. Obviously, this time of year is the best time to do it because everything's dry. But wait until you know later where things are a little wetter, you know and move aside the motion a glow from the course chunky piece pieces and and get down to the soil where you've got this nice compost layer developing. And you start to see, you know, plant roots are there and you see all these slight hairs and they're long and thin. They don't really look like roots, because they're way too thin. They're very fragile. And those are the mychorrazal hyphae. So it's part of that underground network that we were talking about before. And this is an interesting thing roots kind of move up and down to the mulch layer as water conditions allow them to so in the wintertime, you'll get root growth up into the mulch, and then summer they go back down again. So they're very dynamic in terms of where they'll grow.

Farmer Fred : 15:49

That's another thing your book points out too, about roots is they tend to be closer to the surface than a lot of people think perhaps down 12 or 18 inches. They're not drilling their way down. to China.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 16:01

Absolutely. And the thinner and more compacted your soil is the higher up and the soil they'll be so if you were in the Midwest you know where they've got those Great Plains soils with all grassland and you've got you know several inches of topsoil you might find roots going down, you know a foot or two feet or even deeper, but in our soils, especially urban soils, which tend to be pretty compacted and not be real nutritious, mostly roots within the top 12 inches, and you'll have a few they'll sink down here and there but the majority of the roots are pretty close to the surface.

Farmer Fred : 16:35

And again, that just shows the importance of that mulch layer to help not only feed the soil but moderate soil temperature and moderate soil moisture loss.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 16:45

Absolutely, because the closer you are to the surface to the more the environment affects the soil.

Farmer Fred : 16:50

Now your your book how plants work and actually save gardeners a lot of money because you pointed out that a lot of people when they're digging a hole to plant a new tree or shrub, they'll go Go out and get some fancy amendments and work that into the hole for that tree or the shrub. And they'd be better off using those amendments someplace else wouldn't they

Linda Chalker-Scott : 17:09

absolutely do nothing, nothing should go back into that hole that didn't come out of it except the fruits of your plant and everything else that you want to add, whether it's its compost, or if you need to add some nitrogen, fertilizer, whatever that goes on the top and then nature works it down. You don't need to do it. And again, it's kind of a slow feed type of thing.

Farmer Fred : 17:29

So if you had the choice of receiving for Christmas, a roto tiller or a chipper shredder which would you want

Linda Chalker-Scott : 17:37

Oh, pretty confident chipper shredder I want one so badly. Because I love I you know, I love wood chip mulches. I would love to make my own I had a little cheap electric one for a while but it just couldn't handle very much. And we're gonna be moving out to a family farm here next year and I've got 35 acres I want to put a chipper shredder in my own my own mulch pile.

Farmer Fred : 17:59

I can heartily recommend the eight horsepower BCS, I haven't lost my arm in it yet. Now what are the the arguments against roto tilling soil,

Linda Chalker-Scott : 18:08

you know, it makes us feel good because, you know, it's hard work we feel like we've accomplished a lot, then you had a nice soil, it's all uniform and texture and it just, it looks the way you think soils should you know you do a clipart search for soil unless you get a hand You know, you get a picture of a hand with this beautiful looking coffee ground type of material. And you know, you need soil that has structure it's got has peds, and the only way you're going to get that is to have those great mychorrizal connections and and in tap roots. And sure, I mean, you're gonna have to dig holes to plant things, but you don't have to turn up the whole thing into this uniform coffee ground like mess. It really takes a long time then for the soil to redevelop its structure.

Farmer Fred : 18:51

And does it kill earthworms as I often hear,

Linda Chalker-Scott : 18:53

absolutely can. But the interesting thing about earthworms is I'm sure you know is if it's big enough pieces, they'll regenerate, so It's just it's kind of mass destruction and there really is no really good reason to do it. You know, a little, a little more work and repressing weeds either by keeping them mulch before you plant or whatever it can can really save you some time and energy in terms of the soil preparation,

Farmer Fred : 19:18

The country seems to be going more and more through drought cycles. And during the last drought cycle here in California, there are a lot of new products that came out that allegedly would allow you to apply less water basically, they would preserve soil moisture. The common ingredient in a lot of these products are polysaccharides they're sugars. Do you know of any research any scientific evidence that sugar can keep moisture in the soil longer? I guess?

Linda Chalker-Scott : 19:48

You don't know really? and not for any length of time. I mean, sure, if you eat you put some aloe gel or something And sure, I mean, it's more it'll keep moisture there for a while. But those things get eaten up stuff. By microbes, it's just a very expensive way to have a very transient impact. You're much better off protecting the soil from evaporation, just by mulching it rather than incorporating all this expensive stuff. You know, save your money for buying plants and don't buy all these things, especially when they have a surfactants are, which basically they are soaps you know, you don't wanna be pouring soap on to your soil.

Farmer Fred : 20:23

Yeah, and a lot of them have salts in it, too.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 20:26

Oh, yeah. You know, people keep on thinking that salt just means sodium chloride. And there's all kinds of salts and they're generally parts of fertilizers. And the more you add the the worst your drought problems gonna be.

Farmer Fred : 20:36

Well, how do salts interact with the mychorrazal functions?

Linda Chalker-Scott : 20:41

They have a well if you have enough of them, what they'll do is they just they draw water out of tissues. And so, you know, salt, salt toxicity affects everything, whether it's plant material or or the microbes themselves. It just draws water out and so dehydrates everything and if you've got a drought stress that you Again, the more salts you have in the soil, the harder it is on the mychorrazae, the harder it is on the roots. It just really takes its toll on the functionality of that Underground Railroad.

Farmer Fred : 21:10

Sounds like something along the lines of aerating and adding compost might be an order for something like that.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 21:17

Yeah, absolutely. I mean that at least is going to provide you organic matter in in great retainer of moisture, or that's just a much better way to get stuff in there.

Farmer Fred : 21:28

If people want three great books on gardening, I can certainly recommend the informed gardener and the informed gardener blooms again, in which Linda chalker Scott blows apart so many common garden myths that seemed to reappear with the seasons and her latest book how plants work the science behind the amazing thing plants do. Besides being a good explanation and an easy to understand explanation of how these functions work in the soil. You're still exploding garden myths. That's your lot in life, Linda.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 21:59

It is

Farmer Fred : 22:01

And you do a fine job at it.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 22:03

Oh, thank you. I hate being everybody's buzzkill, but I guess someone has to do it.

Farmer Fred : 22:07

Well what is the most commonly reoccurring garden myth that you have to deal with?

Linda Chalker-Scott : 22:13

You know right now and I don't know why it is on social media. I am so tired of this homemade weed killer you know, it's the Epsom salts plus vinegar plus dawn dish soap every single day. I see that someplace on Facebook and half the time it gets asked as a question on our page. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't add salt. Don't add vinegar. And don't add soap.

Farmer Fred : 22:35

Oh, so now I know where the questions I'm getting are coming from okay. And now so I know some of you listening out there had just heard it with one ear and all you heard was, oh, vinegar and Epsom salts and Dawn detergent kills weeds. Well, let's go to work. No, no, don't don't No, no, no, no. Use a hoe. Pull it out of the ground. Oh, Linda. We have a tough life. All right, Linda Chalker-Scottt her latest book how plants work the science behind the amazing things plants do. Linda, thanks so much for your time.

Linda Chalker-Scott : 23:08

Hey, Fred was really fun to talk to you again.

Farmer Fred : 23:16

For most of the United States, there is one great flower that attracts a lot of pollinators, a lot of beneficial insects, a lot of hummingbirds. It makes a great cut flower, too. it's called the Peruvian Lily, also known as Alstroemeria, and it's fairly widely adapted, you can grow it from Washington down to Southern California, south from Kansas through Texas, south from Ohio down to Florida and up into the Atlantic coastal states. It is very versatile, but there's a trick to Alstroemeria if you're using it for a cut flower. Warren Roberts, the retired superintendent of the UC Davis Arboretum tells us more and how to pick them for cut flowers.

Warren Roberts : 23:56

Alstroemeria is sometimes called Inca Lily or Peru Lily Although they're really from the mainland, the main source of the varieties and species is Chile, but somehow the name chili Lily has not caught on. That would be the more appropriate name. Great cut flower but you don't cut them you pull them. That's the longest lasting of all indoor flowers.

Farmer Fred : 24:25

today's garden question comes from Dave he left it on the get growing with farmer Fred Facebook page. He says eight years ago I got some avocados from my dad who lives outside of Tampa, Florida. We planted the seeds just for fun and behold, it started growing. It's become quite the tree, but I have never seen a flower or fruit on the tree. Again, it's been in the ground over eight years. Do you have any ideas? Well, Dave, my first idea is you don't live in avocado country. You don't mention where you live and that has a lot to do with where you can grow avocados. If you're familiar with USDA zones, most of the commercial avocado country in America is in zones 10 A and 10 B, and that's primarily Southern California and a lot of Florida. There's a bit in zone nine B, but once you get below zone nine-b, say nine-A, or USDA zone eight, there's too much freezing temperatures to grow an avocado tree that will bear fruit. So my guess is you live in an area that either gets too cold or too hot. That's why you don't see much in the way of commercial avocado production, say in South Texas or Arizona because it just gets too darn hot. Even though during the winter the overnight temperatures don't get around freezing. Avocados like mild temperatures, not too hot, not too cold. The ones who have been able to successfully grow avocados that bear fruit in zones nine B and nine a it's usually a combination of factors that work for many people. It's to plant two different varieties of avocado. Avocado pollination is increased when you have two types of avocado trees, one with what's called an A flower and one that has a B flower. These flower types open at different times of the day. According to the California rare fruit Growers Association, avocado flowers are either receptive to pollen in the morning and shed pollen the following afternoon. That would be a type a flower or are receptive to pollen in the afternoon and shed pollen The following morning. That would be type B. type A flower varieties includes some adaptable avocado varieties that might work in zone nine B or USDA zone nine a as long as you don't get too much in the way of freezing temperatures or too hot in the daytime. Those varieties include Mexicola and Pinkerton, other varieties that produce a Type B flower that have a chance and I'm just saying have a slight chance of growing if you're outside The USDA zone 10 include bacon, Jim, Zutano, fuerte, Sir Prize and Stewart. These are called Mexican avocados and they tend to mature six to eight months after flowering. people who have been successful growing avocado trees outside USDA zones 10 and perhaps nine B, They've done it through a combination of factors: correct watering, which includes consistently moist soil but well draining soil; reflected heat in the wintertime to keep the temperatures above freezing that may come from positioning the tree near a south or west facing wall and perhaps surrounded by a concrete patio. And a lot of these trees never get taller than the house or the garage that they might be next to. the house protects it from getting too cold. And usually those trees die back as soon as they start getting a little bit taller than the house. And did I mentioned that it takes eight years or more to get fruiting avocado. There could be a problem there as well. So enjoy the tree, Dave. And keep buying the avocados at the grocery store. wherever you may be living. Find out more information about growing avocados in marginal climates in today's show notes.

Farmer Fred : 28:12

Thanks for listening to Garden Basics with Farmer Fred brought to you by smart pots garden basics comes out every Tuesday and Friday. It's available on many podcast platforms including Apple, Spotify, Google, iheart, Stitcher and many more. And if you're listening on Apple, please leave a comment or a rating that helps us decide which garden topics you'd like to see addressed. And again, thank you