025 Peppers, the Hot and the Sweet: How to Grow Them, How to Eat Them

Today, we’re talking about two of the ten most popular backyard garden vegetables: sweet peppers and hot peppers. We talk with the man whom the New York Times dubbed the Pope of Peppers, Dave Dewitt. Besides offering up tips on how to grow hot peppers, but also how to overwinter them for a second year crop (some varieties are better than others for this). Plus, he has the remedy for what to swallow after you’ve bitten down on a pepper that is just too hot. And no…it’s not water or beer, and its not milk! Looking for different varieties to try? Check out some of these from a previous Pepper Tasting Party.

And we get questions about sweet pepper problems. Our favorite retired college horticulture professor, Debbie Flower, tackles the case of the falling flowers from pepper plants. Sound familiar? Give us a listen! It’s all part of Episode 25 of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred.

More info about why vegetables shed blossoms prematurely here.

An informative NuMex Joe E. Parker pepper seed packet from Renee's Garden.

The Scoville Scale, explained.

An easier way to germinate pepper seeds.

And kids...don't try this at home.

More episodes and info available at Garden Basics with Farmer Fredhttps://www.buzzsprout.com/1004629.

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Transcript

Farmer Fred : 0:03

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information well you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred : 0:16

Today we're talking about two of the 10 most popular backyard garden vegetables to grow sweet peppers and hot peppers. We talk with noted hot chili pepper expert Dave DeWitt. besides offering up tips on how to grow hot peppers, Dave has the remedy for what to swallow after you've bitten down on a pepper that's just too hot. And no, it's not water or beer; and it's not milk. and we get questions about sweet pepper problems. Our favorite retired college horticulture Professor Debbie Flower tackles the case of the falling flowers from pepper plants. If that sounds familiar, give us a listen. It's all part of Episode 25 of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred and we're gonna do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go.

Farmer Fred : 1:04

Do you like hot peppers? If you do you need to know how to grow them right to get the best. and we are talking to the best when it comes to pepper information. It's Dave DeWitt. Dave DeWitt is a food historian and one of the foremost authorities in the world on chili peppers, spices, and spicy foods. He has all sorts of best selling books on the subject. He's got the pepper garden, the hot sauce Bible, the chili pepper encyclopedia, the spicy food lovers Bible, the complete chili pepper book, and he even has a habanero cookbook. So we know we're talking to the right guy, Dave, it's a pleasure talking with you again,

Dave DeWitt : 1:43

we haven't talked in a while.

Farmer Fred : 1:45

We should point out it takes a long time to grow a quality chili pepper plant. And as you mentioned, yes, you should be starting seed I know around here you start seeds around January just to get them up to a size where you could transplant them in April. But as I said, a lot of nurseries still have a pretty good selection of pepper plants and I'm amazed at the amount of hot pepper plants that are available now, it used to be mostly sweet peppers. And now I think the majority at least around here are hot pepper plants. But if people want the best selection of hot pepper plants, they really need to do it from seed, don't they because that's where you're gonna find the widest variety.

Dave DeWitt : 2:25

Or order early from chile plants dot com and they had they have 500 different varieties of chili plants and they're very dependable and very good, but you'd have to order a minimum of six, just depending on the size of the plants. They're a little bit pricey but they come in very good containers. And but they're probably sold out by now I would think because it's so popular but if you want super Hots, the Bhut Jalokia and the scorpions and that sort of thing. You're going to have to grow from seed.

Farmer Fred : 2:58

let's talk a little bit about About the hot pepper plants and taste buds, because a lot of people think they like hot peppers. But what what I find with a lot of the really hot peppers, it's mostly heat and not much flavor, whereas some of the more moderately hot pepper plants have excellent taste. Now I would think over the years since you're in New Mexico, you've probably been eating chili peppers your entire life, you're probably a bit inured to heat, but I would think that you would could rattle off some names of some really tasty hot pepper plants.

Dave DeWitt : 3:36

the habanero would be a good selection because the habanero is a hot it was the start of the super Hots used to be called the hottest chili pepper in the world before the super hots from Trinidad were uncovered. And so you can still find them. I mean, they Albertsons here carries them in their produce department, not the bedding plants, but of course, the pods and so and but they're you know, They're not as hot as you would imagine. But still 80,000 Scoville heat units is hot. And if that's what they are, would they go up to 200,000, but most of them aren't aren't nearly that hot, it all depends on, you're not going to just pop these in your mouth and chew them up. So there's going to be some dilution of the heat level as you cook with them. And if you for example, if you make a big bunch of fresh salsa, and you put one habanero in there, and say you have four cups of salsa, that would be about right, and the heat level would be hot, but it wouldn't be killer, and you would still be able to have a good flavor. Because habanero are very fruity, and they have a apricot light flavor. By the way, the taste buds have nothing to do with perception of of heat. all mammals are born with capsaicin receptors which are separate from taste buds, taste buds, visual salty, sweet, umami and that sort of thing, but they don't measure the heat. The heat comes from genetics and the capsaicin receptors in our mouth and tongue and it was thought that the hot peppers came about to prevent mammals from eating the pods and digesting the seeds. birds do not digest the seeds, they pass right through the birds. So there are good, you know, disseminator and they were the original disseminators before mankind of chili pepper plants with chili pepper plants were wild in them. And they operate the same way that the taste buds operate in this sense that it's all genetic. There are super tasters and non tasters with with taste buds, you know people who have a lot of them are super tasters are overwhelmed by things that are salty and sweet and that sort of thing. And the same thing happens with the capsaicin receptors. If you were born with a lot of capsaicin receptors, then you're going to be very super sensitive to the heat levels of peppers.

Farmer Fred : 6:00

Give us some first aid tips for people who accidentally eat a pepper that is a little too hot for them. I know water is a mistake, right?

Dave DeWitt : 6:11

The capsaicin is not miscible with water so it doesn't do any good to try to do water. but dairy products, especially the thicker, heavier, the better. For yogurt, we're talking about ice cream, we're talking about sour cream, those are very good at getting in the heat, because they have a protein called KC and ca si n and that will strip the the molecules capsaicin molecules off your mouth and tongue. And so that's the best thing to do. So if you you know, if you overdose on super hot peppers and you have too much capsaicin, rinsing your mouth with very sick and the sick of the better milk. Remember 2% milk is 98% water. So keep that in mind when if you if you're thinking about using milk, don't use milk. It's useless heavy cream would be good. And ice cream. As I said, yogurt and sour cream are all good for combating the various super hot peppers if you get too much, and you hear all kinds of things like you drink enough beer, you won't, you won't mind how hot it is and stuff like that. But beer in itself is, you know, 90 some percent water. So just keep those things in mind when you're when you're trying to dilute the heat. Now, water and beer and all that kind of stuff will seem like it's working. But the heat returns in other words, it will be momentarily the cooling factor will help but then it'll come back to you. So I say dairy products are the only answer. People will tell you, oh, put some lemon juice on it or put some salt on it or blah, blah, blah. None of that works. It's all mythology.

Farmer Fred : 7:49

I like the idea of having a freezer full of ice cream just in case

Dave DeWitt : 7:53

That's that's very good and the sweet seems to help a little bit as well

Farmer Fred : 7:59

Let's talk Talk about some basics for growing the best Hot Chili Peppers, what sort of conditions what, sort of soil? What do they like to really thrive?

Dave DeWitt : 8:12

The main the main thing is that they don't like sit in water. They don't want their roots at the roots it in water, they'll either get a fungal disease called Phytophthora or they'll just drown because the roots supply oxygen as well as supplying water. And if the roots are completely submerged, they won't be able to supply any oxygen to the roots so the roots will die, the plant will die. And so make sure easy. You know, no matter how you do if you do it in containers, especially make sure that they're well drained. And so I always add perlite to my garden because perlite, vermiculite absorbs water and keeps things very wet. perlite does not absorb water, it just loosens the soil so that the water will pour Through the soil, that you have to water a little bit more. And now of course it will cost you more money, but at least your plants will be healthy.

Farmer Fred : 9:07

How many hours a day of sun do peppers need?

Dave DeWitt : 9:10

Well, they need full sun, for the most part. And so we're talking, you know, 10-12 hours a day. Chili peppers are immune to the day night cycle. So it doesn't matter to them. When it starts getting into the fall, that's when chili peppers are not like that. They will they will keep flowering as long as they don't reach their fruit load. And that's what chili plants do. And tomatoes do too. There's a certain amount of fruit that can be on the plant. And once they eat the plant can't support any more of the fruits on the plant than the flowering shuts down.

Farmer Fred : 9:49

What sort of fertilizer do chili peppers need?

Dave DeWitt : 9:53

For vegetative growth they need, you know high nitrogen but you don't want to overdo it if you if you if you over fertilize with nitrogen, chili peppers you'll get all foliage and no no pods at all. And that's happened to a lot of gardeners especially people who use urea. And that's one of the things I wanted to mention. I screwed up and did not realize that the salts were building up in my raised beds. When I was growing my tomatoes and chili plants in the first indication I had was when my yield went down from a couple of hundred pounds of both, say tomato plant tomatoes to just a few, a few pounds, and I'm thinking, What the hell do I hit my soil tested now I recommend that everybody has their garden soil tested for growing in patches not too bad because you can switch out the soil every year but if you have extensive garden with raised beds, it's hard to switch out your soil every year. And you can rotate. But rotation has nothing to do with the salts building up. And what happens is as you water as the water has salts in it will accumulate the soil. And that happens in the West especially, I sent my soil off be tested. And the reason that my yields were going down was because they were the salts of all kinds of booze. I'm talking about just table salts, I'm talking about all the combinations of salts that there are and there's dozens and dozens of different salt combinations that can build up in your soil. The only way to get rid of that if you have raised beds, is to flood the raised beds with just bunches of water which is going to cost you money, but it's better to flood them in the salt will dissolve and flow out the bottom of the raised beds. And so what I'm doing now every year is at the end of the season, I just flood, flood irrigating when the plants are gone, I just keep flooding and I send my soil off this year. There were no salts in my soil. So now my plants are doing great again. So, you know, just keep that in mind that salt buildup. It interferes with the plants taking in the nutrients for foliage and for fruiting the ware of what I say about the salt buildup and pay and pay attention to it have your soil tested every year, that would be my advice. And the extension services can do that. I used a Colorado State University. that they were they have a really good testing lab. It's not very expensive. And they give you a complete report that looks like a scientific paper almost telling you exactly what your garden needs and they'll give you advice. And I thought I knew a lot about gardening but I didn't I wasn't I wasn't paying close enough attention to my soil. And so that was the big lesson I learned. You know you can get the best varieties you can buy the best bedding plants and all this stuff. It doesn't matter. It's all you If your soil is building up s

Farmer Fred : 13:02

lts, two of the things you mentioned about a successful pepper plant to keep it at moderate nitrogen levels and watch out for salt buildup. That's a good argument for using organic fertilizers because organic fertilizers are very low in salts, and they generally have a nitrogen content of less than 10%. But they also have the phosphorus and the potassium that the plant would need for fruiting.

Dave DeWitt : 13:29

I agree with what you're saying.

Farmer Fred : 13:31

Talk a little bit about something that you touched on and it makes sense for people who want to have a long lasting hot pepper plant. You mentioned growing peppers in containers. And you mentioned the fact that in tropical areas, they become trees they live through the winter. This is a good idea if people want to keep that hot pepper plant going is grow it in a container and then move it to a warm spot if they live in a cold winter area and then bring it back out again. Come spring.

Dave DeWitt : 14:01

Yes, you can do that. And most people say, well, there's done enough light, well, you're not gonna get fruits all year long. I have a greenhouse so and I have tropical plants, like hibiscus and so forth that I put on my patio during the summer, bring them in. And they all have to be pruned back. And chile plants are no exception to that. But, you know, if you if you take a chili plant as a container, and put it outside during the summer and bring it back, inside during the winter doesn't have to have all that much light, put it in a southern exposed window and so forth like that. All you're trying to do is keep the plant alive, you're not trying to grow fruits, because that'll come in the summer. Now, I'm sure there's some exceptions to the rule if you know people have a really good greenhouse operation, the difference between summer light intensity and winter light density is incredible. You'd hardly even notice it. But for a Plant, I'm telling you that it's just a complete difference of the way the sun is in the sky. You don't get the full intensity of the light like you do in the summertime.

Farmer Fred : 15:10

. So with the hot pepper plants that you've grown that you've overwintered, on in year number two, do you get hot peppers quicker?

Dave DeWitt : 15:21

No, as a matter of fact, your yield would be less usually.

Dave DeWitt : 15:24

There's a certain even though these plants are perennials, they've been bred for so long to be annuals that the problem is vigor and a lack of vigor. As the plant gets older. It seems like the larger the pod, the less vigor the plants have. The smaller potted plants like if you're growing pequins, or chiletepins or something like that. They seem to have more vigor as they as they grow older, but the larger potted plants don't like the New Mexico chiles and so forth like that, lose vigor a lot.

Farmer Fred : 15:55

Okay, that's that's a good tip that if you want to overwinter your chili pepper plants, the smaller potted versions have a better chance for success in year two than the larger potted varieties.

Dave DeWitt : 16:15

Exactly

Farmer Fred : 16:16

We've been talking with Dave DeWitt, author of several great pepper books like the pepper garden, the hot sauce Bible, the chili pepper encyclopedia, the spicy food lovers Bible, the complete chili pepper book and a lot more check it out at his website, Dave-dewitt.com. Dave, thanks for a few minutes of your time today.

Dave DeWitt : 16:34

Okay, good talking to you, as usual.

Farmer Fred : 16:42

We recently held a contest for those who left comments about the garden basics podcast at their podcast provider, and congratulations to Carri of California. She's the winner of smart pots, six foot long bed, that's a long lasting fabric container large enough to hold over 10 cubic feet of soil. It's enough room to grow a couple of tomato plants and a couple of pepper plants, or one fantastic display of summer flowers. For more information about all of smart pots fabric containers, visit smart pots.com slash Fred.

Farmer Fred : 17:20

we're talking peppers today with Debbie Flower our favorite retired horticultural college professor and Debbie people are losing blossoms on their pepper plants. JOHN writes in we don't know where john is writing from people, if you send us an email, tell us where you live because all gardening is local. Thank you very much. JOHN writes in and says when those pepper flowers are open, I pollinate by hand and sometimes as I'm brushing the flower, it falls off. My first guest is that I'm over watering them. Please give me your opinion.

Debbie Flower : 17:52

If he's guessing he's over watering, then I think he should look into that first. Figure out you know how deeply his water Is his penetrating into his soil. Potentially he should put some water less often and put some mulch on top of the soil. So he can water even less often than that. But it's You're right, we don't know where he's from and that that makes it somewhat difficult to answer this question, but there are some real basic things that that cause peppers to drop their flowers. And in order for them to form fruit they have to first have a flower. The flower has to be pollinated, which means pollen has to enter the stigmatic surface, you know technical names you don't really need to know but pollen has to move from the anther to the stigmatic surface, travel down there, unite with the the ovum in that flower and form a baby basically in the baby is the fruit that we eat. The pollination peppers are generally self pollinating. They Do benefit from having a pollinator a thing that brings the pollen from one flower to another one. And that's the job that john was tasking himself with. By doing the pollination, the three things that I think of that come to mind why those flowers would fall off, would be that they're not getting pollinated. Actually, there's four things. They're not getting pollinated, which is kind of actually really temperature dependent. And that's one of the four things temperature they grow best. they pollinate best, they make fruit best between the temperatures of 58 and 85 degrees Fahrenheit.

Farmer Fred : 19:38

That's a very nice range. But unpractical back to normal. Right? unpractical, unpractical?

Debbie Flower : 19:47

impractable.

Farmer Fred : 19:47

Thank you. That's the word.

Debbie Flower : 19:50

Yes. And also if nighttimes get temperatures stay above 75 degrees Fahrenheit, which happens in humid temperate zone places. So some times would happen, let's say in New Jersey when I lived there, then they will not also will not pollinate the flowers. So the they're very temperature dependent. And that's very common in many of the things that we grow in the vegetable garden, that the setting of the fruit, the pollination and the setting of the fruit is very much temperature dependent. If the temperatures wrong if there's pollen is not moving for some reason, if there's too much nitrogen fertilizer in the soil nitrogen is for green growth and that if there's too much of it compared to other nutrients in the soil, then the plant will stop making fruit and revert to just becoming a nice big bushy green thing. And the other is your regular watering, which is too much or too little watering. Well that's three things. Three things. Well, four was the fourth one was for pollination, but you're right, it's really part of the temperature.

Farmer Fred : 20:56

Yeah.

Debbie Flower : 20:58

add another self pollinating

Farmer Fred : 20:59

Or I can add another one. Is the plant getting sun or is it in full sun or shade?

Debbie Flower : 21:06

Oh, good point. Good point. Yes, they do need sun to grow. And without it, they won't. If you've ever had a plant that flowers and you planted in this shady spot in the yard, you don't get flowers. Yeah, they just don't produce enough energy in the green parts of the plant in order to produce the flower. flowers and fruit in most cases do not make their own food and peppers sweet peppers are often green. When we eat them, those are actually unright peppers. You can if you leave a pepper on the plant it will change color to yellow and then to red. Although there are varieties that will change to other colors like purple and orange and they get sweeter but then they get sweeter. Yes, and this the pepper gets a little bit softer as well. At that point when it's green, it will make some food but Not enough to support itself. So that pepper that fruit and that flower, which is white, are relying on the green parts of the plant to seed it so that it can grow so that it can exist and if the plant is for any reason, unable to make enough food to support this additional structure, and it'll drop the structure to save the rest of the plant.

Farmer Fred : 22:23

So it isn't a case of john, he mentions brushing the flower, he's not brushing it so hard. He's knocking the flower off that flower was ready to fall off.

Debbie Flower : 22:33

That's what I'm assuming. flowers and fruit are typically hard to remove if they're not ready to come off. That's a good test for like fruit trees. If you can't remove the peach easily, then the peaches probably not completely ripe yet.

Farmer Fred : 22:53

If the flower can pollinate itself, right there, I would think there'd have to be some sort of momentum, if you will, to move that pollen from within the flower, it's not a case of having to move the pollen from one flower to another flower, that single flower has both the male and female parts so that it could fertilize itself without any help from the outside. Correct?

Debbie Flower : 23:16

Yes, correct. All right. But I would have two different structures in it, right? And pollen is only right for a short while of a few minutes, maybe few hours in one day. And the stigmatic surface where that pollen has to move to is only receptive will only accept the pollen for a short period of time. And so that you want those two things in order for the flower to pollinate itself. Those two things have to happen at the same time, and that's where temperature comes in. When the temperature is too low, the parts grow at a different rate and they, the pollen ripen, set it at a different time than the stigmatic surfaces ready to receive it when it's too hot. The other way around, the parts grow too fast go right past each other before they are. One is they are both ready before the stigmatic surface is receptive, and the pollen is also ready to be moved. It's the temperature regulates the rate of the activity in that flower. And if it happens in the right rate, then you get a fruit if it happens at the wrong rate, cold temperatures and the slower warm temperatures mean faster, that happens at the wrong rate, then the flower does not pollinate.

Farmer Fred : 24:34

I would think that there has to be some sort of momentum for the male part of the flower to get to the female part of the flower. And I would think in normal situations, it would be a wind or a breeze might be able to do that. But if that pepper plant is so crammed in with other plants that the wind can't get through them that might inhibit that pollination.

Debbie Flower : 24:59

Yes, that's very true. Movement plants are native to outdoors, and they are used to moving in the wind. And when animals press past them and all that sort of stuff, and so yes, if they're jammed in there and can't move, then that movement won't happen. And that movement is helpful to the pollination, to transfer of pollen having insects visit the flowers to get the nectar which is typically what they want. They happen to transfer pollen but they're there for the nectar. Having insects there, shakes the plant as well spacing the plants correctly and pepper should be about 18 inches apart. If you're going to keep them a long time, you may want them three feet apart, because they can grow to be very large plants. So you want to space them so that they get enough sun space so they get enough air movement that also helps preventing diseases like leaf spot diseases, and you want to have things around flowers preferably like zinnias For instance, flowers that attract other the insects that will come and look for the nectar. They're not necessarily pepper pollinators. But when they're in there looking for the nectar, they're shaking that plant around and that's helpful.

Farmer Fred : 26:13

I think when you actually buy pepper plants or you start pepper plants from seed on the instruction packets, it will tell you how far apart those particular pepper plants should be spaced. In fact, let me reach over here to my box of seeds, and let me find my stack of pepper seeds. Oh parsnips, so I got to plant those. And here's a packet from Renee's garden of her sweet bell peppers, and very extensive instructions on the back of the packet. And in Renee's garden pepper packets they mentioned to plant out two to two and a half feet apart in a rich soil in full sun. So that seems reasonable two to two and a half feet. she's not the taskmaster master you are with three feet and nor Is she the you know, the the lenient father like I am who plants peppers 18 inches apart, wishing now I had planted them two feet apart.

Debbie Flower : 27:18

I read some advice that suggested start them out at 18 inches apart. And then if you're if you have a long growing season, and these peppers are going to mature into big plants remove every other one, halfway through the season.

Farmer Fred : 27:33

Oh yeah, like somebody's gonna do that.

Debbie Flower : 27:36

Right, it's a it's a very difficult thing to do because you have this lovely producing plant, so just go in and whack it out. So spacing may also depend on where you are in very, very hot places. I like to plant the peppers more close together because they shade each other and problem with peppers in a hot sunny place is that they can become sunburned. places that are more humid and don't get quite as hot, then I spaced them further apart because you want the air to flow through and dry the Leafs off. So it depends the spacing can depend on where you are.

Farmer Fred : 28:13

Well On that note, I'm going to plant this packet of parsnip seeds that I just found while looking for the pepper seed package. Because I see parsnips are supposed to go in the ground in July. This is where you said that right? That's all right, Fred.

Debbie Flower : 28:30

Yes. Do you want me to say anything?

Farmer Fred : 28:33

Debbie Flower. We solved somebody pepper problems, I think Thanks for your help on this.

Debbie Flower : 28:37

Oh, you're so welcome

Farmer Fred : 28:48

Thank you for listening to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. I appreciate your ears. How about a subscription? you can get the podcast wherever podcasts are given away such as Apple, Spotify, Google, I heart, Stitcher, and many more.