064 Oh, Deer! How To Protect Your Plants. Christmas tree care. Poinsettia tips.

It’s a good thing that Santa parks his sleigh on your rooftop, otherwise, Rudolph, Donner, Blitzen and the rest of his deer crew might help themselves to your garden goodies. Deer love your garden! Are there such things as deer resistant plants? How do you keep deer from ravaging your radishes and rose bushes? We have tips. Plus advice for caring for that new, cut Christmas tree that you’re about to haul home.  And, poinsettia  pointers from a commercial grower, to keep that holiday houseplant looking good.

It’s Episode 64 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you by Smart Pots. And we will do it all in under 30 minutes.…let’s go!

Links
Smartpots!
"Deer in My Garden" Vols. 1 &2,  by Carolyn Singer (plants that may be unpalatable to deer)
"Effective Deer Fences" University of Vermont
"Animal Fencing" University of Georgia
"Deer/Elk Fences" Oregon Fish & Wildlife
"How to Build a Plastic Mesh Deer Exclusion Fence" Purdue University
Options for Deer Fencing University of Kentucky
Deer Fencing Choices at Amazon
Deer Repllents at Amazon

Poinsettia Links
"How to Select and Care for a Healthy Poinsettia Plant" UC Cooperative Extension
Eisley's Nursery, Auburn CA

Christmas Tree Care Links
"Real Christmas Trees: Which One is Right For You?" Michigan State University
Extra Large Capacity (2.5 gallon) Christmas Tree Stand from Amazon

Garden Basics comes out every Friday during November through January. We’ll be back to a twice a week schedule in February.  More info including live links, product information, transcripts, and chapters available at the home site for Garden Basics with Farmer Fred.

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Transcript

Farmer Fred: 0:00

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred.

Farmer Fred 2: 0:20

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, well, you've come to the right spot. You know, it's a good thing that Santa's parks his sleigh on your rooftop otherwise, Rudolph, Donner, Blitzen and the rest of his deer crew just might help themselves to your garden goodies. Deer love your garden. So is there such a thing as deer resistant plants? How do you keep deer from ravaging your radishes and rose bushes? We have tips. Plus, we've got advice for caring for that new cut Christmas tree that you're about to haul home tips to make it last through the holidays. And, you can call it a"poinsetta" or a "poinsettia". We have pointers to help keep that holiday staple of a house plant looking good. It's Episode 64 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast brought to you by Smart Pots. And we'll do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go.

Farmer Fred: 1:23

No matter where you go in the United States, you are going to find deer. They're visible, They're widespread and they love to munch on your garden. They're a very popular game animal but they're not so fun when they're in your backyard eating your garden, your plants, your annuals, your perennials, your fruit trees and everything else. And it seems like deer populations are increasing in more populated areas, especially those on the outskirts of town, those that border riparian areas and they seem to be getting more and more bold, going into denser population areas because let's face it, we're not coyotes. They're not that afraid of us. Deer. How do you protect your plants? Debbie Flower is with us, a college professor(retired) of horticulture and I would think that in your time as a college professor, especially in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains, this question came up a lot.

Bill Eisley: 2:18

Yeah, sure did. There are a lot of vineyards in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. And for them, it's a big, big problem. Because deer feed on relatively new growth. And they can do a lot of damage, especially if you get a mom who decides your vineyard is a good place to have her babies, then the babies come. Yeah, that's their new home and they will come back and come back and come back. So it's definitely a big problem up there.

Farmer Fred: 2:47

I think a lot of people have finally realized that you have to take all these deer proof plant lists with a grain of salt, because like we say, "all gardening is local". Well, all deer are local, and they may have different taste buds wherever they may happen to be in the country.

Bill Eisley: 3:03

And if they're starving, they'll eat anything, as a human would do. Starving and you'll eat anything to quell your stomach. So that's very true, there is nothing that is truly deer proof. But there are some strategies we can do to protect the plants that deer love a lot and that we love a lot and hopefully keep the deer from damaging them and keep them maybe out of our garden.

Farmer Fred: 3:28

So as we try to do on this program, whenever we're tackling a pest problem is we have to correctly identify the pest. What are the signs that it's deer that are eating your

Bill Eisley: 3:39

You're absolutely right. There are many other plants? things that could be eating your plants, rodents, rabbits, and deer being among them. And so you need to have an idea of the what we call the signs of deer the things that let us know the deer have been there. One is the way they eat. Deer don't leave tooth marks on trunks. Let's say you won't see a set of marks in the trunk they have to eat they tear the leaves apart or shred them. They don't have upper incisors. I'm not real good on teeth, but those I think are cutting teeth. Dear lack upper incisors so they can't just bite into something like biting into an apple. They have to grab on to the nice young stems and leaves and tear them off. So that's number one the type of damage you see the location of that damage. deer are much taller than other things that might be eating our plants from the ground, like rabbits and rodents. So the damage could go up this plant to four to five feet. Maybe even bigger. If you've higher if you've got bigger deer around. Then look down look at the ground. Look for their poop. The deer pellets. I'm sure you can find pictures on the internet so I'm not going to describe them there but I can round their boy And around Yeah, and shiny. Yeah. And in a pile, usually. And then their hooves, they have to, I guess it's called a cloven hoof, with indents in the ground. And the whole thing is kind of the shape of an avocado or an egg. And that's the deer imprint in the ground. So you're gonna look for those things.

Farmer Fred: 5:20

that it's probably the size of two pennies together, placed end to end.

Bill Eisley: 5:26

from the tip of each close to the back. Right, right. You're saying?

Farmer Fred: 5:30

Yeah,

Debbie Flower: 5:31

yeah.

Farmer Fred: 5:32

So it's not that big. You would think with a deer that there might be a bigger footprint, but in reality, it's fairly compact.

Debbie Flower: 5:41

It is quite small. Yes.

Farmer Fred: 5:43

So okay, we've figured out it's the deer. But we should point out too, that male deer, especially in late summer may be rubbing their antlers on tree trunks and limbs, or fence posts. And usually, if it's a mature tree, it's not that much of damage. But if they're rubbing those antlers on smaller trees or saplings, and then there could be a lot of damage.

Bill Eisley: 6:04

right, if there's not a lot of cork over the live part of the plant. So cork is what we typically call bark, and the live part of the plant is just underneath that. And that's where all the liquids move around in the plant. If there's not a lot of protection over that the wet part, it rips it right off and exposes the the vascular system of the plant. So yeah, the deer are trying to take the velvet off of their antlers when they're doing that.

Farmer Fred: 6:31

I think for the sake of this discussion, we will limit the conversation about deer proof plants simply because it isn't consistent from one area of the country to another. So let's talk about exclusion or modification or a lot of interesting things you can buy at the nursery to to maybe dissuade deer.

Bill Eisley: 6:53

Right? There are several categories that we can explore for protecting our garden, as you mentioned, exclusion, modifying the habitat, repellents, and hazing or frightening them. And then in most places where there are deer, there is a hunting season as well, the most effective of all of those, but probably the most expensive of all of those controls is the fencing. And that was something that was explored heavily in the vineyards in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, it's expensive to make a fence and put it up and it has to be minimum of six feet, eight feet is better, and has to go all the way around the property. No holes in it. And deer will also if they can, they'll go under the fence. So you have to be sure that that fence is attached to the ground somehow, if it's a rigid fence, that's fine. But it is less expensive and maybe easier to use some of the softer plastics that are woven, and rolled up and used as fencing around let's say construction sites that might be a place you'd see them, they need to be six feet tall, minimum, eight feet is better. And they need to be rigidly attached, so that the deer can't get under them or well over is because of the height. They can't get over them.

Farmer Fred: 8:19

Yeah, or they have to be rigidly supported to say don't knock down the fence too. So you're gonna have to have your support posts much closer together than you would on a normal fence.

Bill Eisley: 8:29

Right? Right. So that it's a pricey way to go. electric fences are a possibility too. And I read many different Cooperative Extension sites about deer and some of them you could tell deer was a really big problem, because they suggested turning on your electric fence and then getting a piece of aluminum foil putting peanut butter on it and wrapping it around the live electric fence so that the deer would be attracted and they would get their zapping. That is an extreme I think and electric fences take real regular maintenance because a lot of things can cause that electricity to fail.

Farmer Fred: 9:04

Right. I think a good point to that university of california Cooperative Extension makes about if you are constructing a deer fence is not only you trying to keep them from getting in, you've got to give them an easy way to get out. Yes. And that's I would think very important that if you spot a deer in a fence to garden, then if you go to try to get them out, they may end up destroying the fence trying to get out

Bill Eisley: 9:31

right and they're not going to come to you asking you to open the gate or not. So you need to have another place fences need to fence the entire property and it needs to have a gate the gate needs to be the same height as the fence and you probably need a backdoor so that if you go in your gate and close it behind you because the deer may come in when you're not looking and see a deer you can leave by that gate and go around the gate is typically in a place or often in a place where humans Hang out, the deer is not likely to head toward that main gate. So have a backdoor have a back gate where they can leave.

Farmer Fred: 10:07

Hmm. And I imagine to on on a slope, you would want that escape gate on the high end,

Bill Eisley: 10:13

I it probably depends on your property. But that sounds like a really good idea. There's lots of discussion and there was some practice of it in the foothills of using a slanted fence, deer can jump high, and they can jump far, but they can't do both at the same time. And so if you only had a six foot fence, one technique is to slant it away at about a 45 degree angle away from the plant you're trying to protect at about a 45 degree angle. And that combination of distance and height will flummox the deer and keep them out.

Farmer Fred: 10:50

Now I've heard to have experiments going on with even shorter fences of four and five foot heights. But having that sloping a second sloping fence pointed outward, as well sort of like forming a V if you will. And as long as they can't get between the two fences and then jump, you might have success keeping them out with a lower fence by having the double fencing.

Bill Eisley: 11:15

Right, right. I also saw double fencing of vertical fences and a dog run between them. So with how wide the dog run three foot four foot, and, and so that the second fence inside didn't need to be as high. It just needed to contain the dog and deer don't like dogs. So dogs can be as protection. But of course you need to take care of that dog then that's not a free thing. You feed it, take it to the vet, groom it all of those good things.

Farmer Fred: 11:48

We're glad to have Smart Pots on board supporting the Garden Basics podcast. Smart Pots are the original, awar winning fabric planter. They'r sold worldwide. Smart Pots ar proudly made 100% in the USA I'm pretty picky about who allow to advertise on this rogram. My criteria, though, i pretty simple. It has to be product I like; a product I use a product I would buy again. nd Smart Pots clicks all th se boxes. They're durable. They re reusable. Smart Pots re available at independent gar en centers and select Ace and T ue Value stores nationwide. To f nd a store near you visit Sm rtPots.com slash Fred. It's Sma t Pots, the original award winni g fabric planter. go to Sma tPots dot com slash Fred for more info and that special Farme Fred discount on your next S art Pot purchase, go to S artPots.com slash Fr Let's get back to our conversation with Debbie Flower, ways to keep deer out of your garden. Well, that brings up then the thought of using repellents and there are all sorts of chemical repellents that are sold for reducing or preventing deer damage. But I think they're only good until it starts raining.

Bill Eisley: 13:11

Right? repellents are a temporary solution. If you've got a crop that is just coming ripe and you realize a deer has found it and is starting to eat it. And you're only going to need this deer protection for a short period of time, then repellent is a possibility. There are lots of recipes for making repellents. They need to either smell really bad like fermented egg, or they need to cause a discomfort to the deer after they've been eaten. And that would be like hot pepper, the capsaicin and hot pepper. There are anecdotal repellents, like hanging hair in the crop or using urine of of what you'd have to buy of a predator of the deer. Those are also suggested but not tested.

Farmer Fred: 13:56

I'm just wondering how they collect urine from coyotes.

Bill Eisley: 13:59

Yeah, I'm not sure I want to know. I assume somebody I assume it's manufacturers, you know that that that somebody analyzed what's in coyote urine and then put the same chemicals together, but that's my guess.

Farmer Fred: 14:13

Now what about frightening devices and noisy objects? You see advertised a lot of motion activated sprinklers. But again, I would think at some point, they will just say, "Oh, it's raining" and keep on eating.

Bill Eisley: 14:27

Yes, it is. Yes, it doesn't. They're again short term when you put them out initially they will keep the deer away. Again, you could use some potentially for a crop that just has a few days to go before you're going to finish with it. But when you're talking about raining, that would be a motion activated sprinkler. Other hazing things would be noises, radios, dog barking, setting off blanks on a some kind of a weapon, a gun kind of thing, but the deer will get used to them so they're not very Effective. One thing a friend of mine did in her home garden, and she lived near in the Napa Sonoma area was made a very narrow garden, only about five feet wide and fenced just that area. And because it was so narrow, the deer could not jump into it. Does that make sense?

Farmer Fred: 15:20

Yeah. Okay. And so they're not willing to do a six foot leap into an area that they may not clear.

Debbie Flower: 15:27

Right?

Farmer Fred: 15:28

Right. But does that work from the get go? Or do deer learn that after cousin Jim gets stuck at the top of the fence?

Bill Eisley: 15:37

Yeah, I don't know about that, for sure. But I would discourage people from putting anything harmful on the top of the fence, you don't want to kill the deer. They talked about wire fencing because it has some flexibility to it. And it is easier to release a deer that gets caught in it or the deer to release themselves not to use barbed wire, because it's you're just creating the barrier, you're not trying to harm the deer in the process.

Farmer Fred: 16:03

I guess another solution for people who just want to protect certain valuable plants and I'm thinking of fruit trees would be to individually cage each of these fruit trees. And this goes back to something we've talked about a lot on this program, maintaining fruit trees at a height that are within your reach. In other words, keeping them at maybe six feet tall or so and six feet wide. And that way, you'll still have plenty of fruit for the family. But it'd be much easier to build an enclosure to protect that tree.

Bill Eisley: 16:30

Right, that's definitely an option. And also a young tree, we were talking about the male deer coming along and and rubbing their antlers on a tree and it's a young tree with a narrow stem, then it's much more damaging to that than an older tree that has much more much wider stem and much more cork on the outside of that wood. So you just the trunk of the tree can be covered. Either with a very narrow fence, it's only a foot or two across, and just prevents the deer from getting up close to it and rubbing their antlers against it. Or you can use something like tree wrap a plastic tree wrap or tree shelter, something in netting over the tree, something like that, that would keep the deer away. It is not a permanent solution. And it shouldn't be those kinds of of things that are very small and close to the trunk need to be checked regularly. So the plant itself is not damaged. So they're just for starting up for getting the orchard going, let's say and then considering doing the fencing that you were talking about next.

Farmer Fred: 17:34

And if you're thinking of using some sort of noisemaker to frighten them off. I love this sentence in the University of California information on deer in their"pests in the gardens and landscape" series. And it says there about if you're thinking of using noisemakers, well in urban and suburban residential areas, deer come into contact with a variety of changing auditory and visual stimuli daily, and often quickly habituate to things that cause them no harm. So for instance, I was on my bicycle today, and I happened to be going down Sunrise Boulevard, which is a very busy street here in the Sacramento area, four lanes of traffic, always traffic, lots of signals, lots of horns. And here's a family of deer just walking down the sidewalk of Sunrise, headed for a residential complex where they had spied some tasty shrubs.

Bill Eisley: 18:31

Oh my goodness, yes. Yes, I've seen them but not in such such busy places. But they they were on the side of the road. And it was a family and of many sizes are probably seven or so deer. And they actually stopped and waited for the car to go by. Yeah,

Farmer Fred: 18:50

These deer I saw today. they crossed with the light.

Unknown: 18:56

Whatever.

Farmer Fred: 18:56

I think they've done this before.

Bill Eisley: 18:58

Yeah, they've gotten to know their environment. So yeah, this this noise stuff. They call it hazing in one website I saw. Yeah, it doesn't work.

Farmer Fred: 19:08

Yeah, it's very temporary. I guess if you mix it up a bit that might help but again, it will be short term. So is there a solution? Maybe No, not No,

Bill Eisley: 19:21

not not a end all be all solution. We can't eradicate the deer or the damage they're going to do but we can share with them and I didn't see anybody saying anything about that. If you have enough property, you can put some thing that they like to eat way out in the back 40 somewhere and obviously they'll still come looking for it what else you have but that you would have to protect an exclusion is your best choice. fencing.

Farmer Fred: 19:48

exclusion is it. Deer. They are among us and we will continue to protect our backyard food supply. Debbie Flower, College Horticulture Professor, retired. Thank you so much for telling us the truth about deer.

Bill Eisley: 20:04

It's always a pleasure. Thank you, Fred.

Farmer Fred: 20:09

Well, it's a beautiful November day. We're up at Eisley Nursery in Auburn. And they're having an open house now what we're staring at our tables and tables of beautiful poinsettias ice leaves is known in the fall for their collection of poinsettias. In the spring. They're known for their tomatoes. But right now we're talking with Bill Isley and Bill, these are gorgeous poinsettias. How many varieties do you have here?

Bill Eisley: 20:32

Now you got me. All right,

Farmer Fred: 20:34

I'll start with an easier question.

Bill Eisley: 20:35

There's two different types of red. And then we have their Jingle bells, orange face, Monets, ice punch, pinks, about nine different varieties.

Farmer Fred: 20:47

And of course, I imagined in the spring, these all become tomatoes.

Bill Eisley: 20:50

Yes, this will be the vegetable production house,

Farmer Fred: 20:54

right? How long have you been propagating and growing poinsettias?

Bill Eisley: 20:58

My father and uncle started doing a poinsettias in the early 70s. I took over production of the poinsettias in 1978. a while then a couple of years. Yeah,

Farmer Fred: 21:13

a couple of years. local nurseries love your product. They love the poinsettias because they're they're healthy. They're they they grow well, just like your tomatoes.

Bill Eisley: 21:22

Yes, they do. So we ship, you know, to other nurseries here in Northern California and western Nevada.

Farmer Fred: 21:31

Yeah, it's interesting to see poinsettia production going on here in Northern California. You tend to think of this as a Southern California institution. But as long as you got Poly roofs and probably a large pg&e bill, you can get away with it.

Bill Eisley: 21:44

Yes, we can't. pg&e loves us.

Farmer Fred: 21:47

All right. That it's mostly gas heat, I would think

Bill Eisley: 21:50

yes. All gas heat. And then in the summer, we have these big draft fans. And then the cooling pads just like an swamp cooler to cool the houses down to keep them at temperature.

Farmer Fred: 22:03

And of course, these will be gone probably by mid December.

Bill Eisley: 22:07

Yes, around December 15. Except for there are some churches that wait till the 20th or so or December before they take theirs.

Farmer Fred: 22:16

All right. And these are in some very nice pots here. You got all of these in ceramic pots.

Bill Eisley: 22:21

Yep, they're all in clay pots. We were one of the last ones to do them and clay pots. But since I sell to nurseries and florists we don't want it to look like mass marketers. So we stay with the clay instead of the plastic.

Farmer Fred: 22:37

Excellent. is just fantastic here. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen so many poinsettias in one place. Are you unique to growing this in Northern California, maybe over in the Bay Area, there might be some.

Bill Eisley: 22:48

there's still quite a few poinsettia growers here in Northern California. Lodi, Galt, over on halfmoon Bay and stuff. So there's still quite a few of us growing.

Farmer Fred: 23:01

Give us some care tips for poinsettias.

Bill Eisley: 23:03

You want to keep them away from drafts away from the front door, away from any heaters, any wood heaters if you're heating with wood, and you want to keep them in filtered light away from a window, like on your dining room table. It's perfect.

Farmer Fred: 23:22

All right, and they're good till what February 1? Oh,

Bill Eisley: 23:26

yes, they would should last you at least until Valentine's Day if you're taking good care of them.

Farmer Fred: 23:33

And I imagine at least once a day somebody comes up to you and says now how can I get this to last all year.

Bill Eisley: 23:42

Every day, every day, you can't get it to stay in color year round, it is going to revert back to green. And then you have to start the process all over where you're cutting it back to get new shoots. And then it's water, temperature and fertilization to get it to come back into color.

Farmer Fred: 24:05

Not to mention a long period of darkness.

Bill Eisley: 24:08

Not as much as the old varieties, the new varieties they actually light up and we have enough ambient light coming in from around the nursery. I do not light them. Because it's more of a dull color. They do not have the vibrant color if you light them or use black cloth. So we just use natural light.

Farmer Fred: 24:32

Alright, so for those attempting to, shall we say over-summer their poinsettias and get them to rebloom, to recolor, because we should point out and we haven't done that yet that the actual flower of the plant is this center part, the cyathia.

Bill Eisley: 24:48

Yes, the bract what colors up, and it is not the flower,

Farmer Fred: 24:52

Right the bract is a modified leaf and people say oh what beautiful flowers when in reality it's a beautiful leaf.

Bill Eisley: 24:57

It's a beautiful bract. Yes, the leaf

Farmer Fred: 25:00

Pests of poinsettias. I don't see any white flies here. Congratulations.

Bill Eisley: 25:04

Thank you. We are on the white flies all the time. We do two treatments. We have lucked out this year with the white flies, but they're more susceptible now to root rots them what they used to be, that is our big thing. actually been treating the poinsettias every 15 days for root rot.

Farmer Fred: 25:27

Well that would be another cultural tip then for people. don't put them in pots without drainage. They need good drainage.

Bill Eisley: 25:34

they have to have good drainage and you let it dry out before you water it again. Right do not want to keep it wet all the time.

Farmer Fred: 25:43

Poinsettias it's a beautiful plant for the fall and winter, they do so well indoors here. They're everywhere and they're up here in Auburn. Thank you, Bill.

Bill Eisley: 25:50

Thank you. going to a winter schedule, maybe just like your favorite local nursery. November through January, Garden Basics will come out once a week on Fridays. Then, as the weather warms back up in February, we'll return to our twice a week schedule. Thank you for listening, subscribing, and leaving comments. We appreciate that you've included us in your garden life.