GB 077 Tackling Tree Roots; Good Pruning Sources; Plant of the Week: Wintersweet; The Gratitude Garden 29:57
SPEAKERS
Debbie Flower, Michael Santos, Warren Roberts, Farmer Fred
Farmer Fred 00:03
Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, well, you've come to the right spot.
Farmer Fred 00:15
Dealing with weeds in the garden is bad enough. So how do you deal with tree roots in your flower and vegetable beds? We've got some tips. Questions about how and when to prune trees and shrubs? We give you a list of good resources. The Plant of the Week is putting on a show for the nose right now. It's wintersweet. And, how keeping a garden diary is good for your mental health. It's Episode 77 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. And we'll do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go.
Farmer Fred 00:51
Don't forget we like to answer your questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. There are several ways to get in touch with us. You can always email in your question with pictures, the email address is Fred at farmer fred.com. Or you could even leave an audio question without making a phone call. Do it via speakpipe. That's speakpipe.com. It's easy. Give it a try. And you just might hear your voice on the garden basics podcast. And of course you can even phone or text us with your questions or pictures at 916-292-8964, that's 916-292-8964. And don't forget to tell us where you're from. That'll help us greatly to accurately answer your garden questions. Because as I'm fond of saying, All gardening is local. And when we answer your gardening questions, we bring in the big guns, retired horticulture professor, Debbie Flower.
Farmer Fred 01:55
Jim writes in and he's building some raised beds. And he says, "I'm in the process of building two, new four by eight foot raised beds, the height of the raised beds will be about two and a half feet tall. My concern is the adjacent redwood trees and my neighbor's property. Their roots would like nothing better than to get into my new raised beds. I know this because they've already gotten into my other raised beds. I have several solutions, I think, but would like your opinion on the one to use. One is to put down a layer of landscape fabric. Second is to put down a four by eight sheet of quarter inch plastic. The third idea would be to use some half inch mesh wire hardware cloth. And the fourth idea is to use some metal flashing that is used for roofing." Well, at least you gave yourself a lot of options. Jim,
Debbie Flower 02:45
He's been thinking on that one.
Farmer Fred 02:46
Yeah, he's been thinking about that. But we have a problem here. And that is the fact that, yeah, you do want to stop the tree roots. But you also don't want to stop the flow of air and water at the base of the raised bed, you want to be able for that to happen, especially the water to percolate into the soil below. And then that way, you won't have a permanent puddle of water at the bottom of the raised bed.
Debbie Flower 03:12
Right. You want the raised bed open at the bottom so that the plants in the raised bed don't die from too much water.
Farmer Fred 03:18
So how do you get around that? What do you do? Oh, by the way, folks, for those of you listening back east, and are thinking, "redwood trees? I've seen those trees in California, they're big! Why would somebody have those in their backyard?" And you know, that's a very good question. I don't know why,
Debbie Flower 03:34
Yes, and they're fast growers. And they make great view blockers. But after a certain age or size they take over. They tend to throw second leaders. And those leaders get bigger and fatter with time. And a friend of mine had one break in a rainstorm and go right through his roof into the bedroom and out the window of the bedroom. It took six months to get that whole roof replaced and all the damage fixed. It's the number one rule: pick a plant that fits the size that you have to give it.
Farmer Fred 04:08
If I was mayor of suburbia, I would make a rule that no backyard tree could be larger than 35 feet. I probably wouldn't get reelected. But I would make that rule.
Debbie Flower 04:18
Yes, there are places, there are gated communities, in this part of the world that make rules like that. It's mostly for views so that you can get some shade and your neighbor can still see the lovely mountain views nearby. So there are places that would accept that advice, but other people would not.
Farmer Fred 04:34
Yes, exactly. And also another thing too, is for solar panels. And here in California, there's been a lot of legislation to make it easier to install solar panels and one of those rules includes that your neighbor can't block your sun.
Debbie Flower 04:47
Right. And you don't want to block your sun yourself.
Farmer Fred 04:49
Exactly. Yeah. So think about that. Anyway, we got Jim with his hardware cloth, with plastic, with the sheet metal flashing, used for roofing. or landscape fabric,
Debbie Flower 05:03
Metal, metal
Farmer Fred 05:05
Metal flashing for roofing.
Debbie Flower 05:06
The number one thing to think about is that he he cannot keep the roots out. Roots have an ability, they grow a certain depth below the surface of the soil. And that depth is determined by the amount of oxygen available in the soil. If you layer things on top of the soil, he's going to about two and a half feet, then the oxygen can't penetrate what used to be the the surface and so the roots will move up in into the top of the bed. It'll take a while, it won't happen tomorrow. But he is going to have a root problem with that plant and he has it already with his other beds. Number two is you can't stop them from growing in that area. If it were my bed, the first thing I do is dig down a little bit around where that four by eight raised bed is going to be and with loppers, with sharp tools, cut off any roots that are currently underneath the area where the raised bed will go. It will not harm the tree. If you make nice clean cuts, the tree will make roots in other places. It will first rely on the roots it has and then it will make roots and other places where it can grow.
Farmer Fred 06:21
And I think any person, any gardener, who has who has dealt with trees in the invading their garden know it isn't just redwood trees that are culprits. There are many, many tree varieties that have invasive root systems.
Debbie Flower 06:34
Yes, the tree that comes to mind for me is a fruiting mulberry. My last house had a terraced garden, and I went outside on the patio went down two steps. And then I was on the lawn and then I went down and the vegetable garden was on the lawn level. And then I went down to about eight steps and I was on the lower level. And then there was a level below that. The mulberry was on that, after the eight steps of that lower level. And my vegetable garden was the level above that. And eventually, when I went to dig in my vegetable garden, the mulberry roots were there and I knew they were mulberry roots because they have a distinctive color. That's when the mulberry tree got taken out. So yeah, trees can have problems and vegetable gardens.
Farmer Fred 07:17
How far was that vegetable garden from the trunk of the mulberry tree?
Debbie Flower 07:22
At least? I'd say 20 feet.
Farmer Fred 07:26
Yeah, tree roots go a long way. They go beyond the canopy of the tree.
Debbie Flower 07:29
Very far beyond the canopy of the tree and they end up in places that have the things that they want, which is water and nutrients and oxygen. And of course my vegetable garden had those things. And the lawn nearby had those things. I'd never dug up the lawn. So I don't know if the mulberry roots were under that as well. But they did get into the vegetable garden.
Farmer Fred 07:49
Jim also mentions in his email the fact that he's putting these raised beds on what is currently lawn. And that brings up another issue as well. A lot of people will just build a raised bed on top of a lawn and think nothing of it. If you're doing it on Bermuda grass, the Bermuda grass will find its way to the top. Yeah, and I would definitely want to remove some of that turf, if not all of it.
Debbie Flower 08:16
Yes, I would maybe take a season out and solarize it. Solarization is is a way of sterilizing the soil, so killing everything in it. But it has to be done with the heat of the summer. And so you would miss this season's growing vegetables like tomatoes and peppers. You have to prep the soil. you scrape the stuff off the top of the lawn, off the top and the weeds. Prep the soil by turning it. Water the soil and then use very thin plastic and bury the edges and leave it for six to eight weeks.
Farmer Fred 08:48
Clear plastic.
Debbie Flower 08:49
Clear plastic yes and very thin plastic. And the plastic I use was the drop cloth plastic you can buy in the paint department of a big box store. the thinnest stuff you can get.
Farmer Fred 09:00
I think four mil is the thinnest.
Debbie Flower 09:02
Well I thought okay, you can even use dry cleaning plastic but that would be a nightmare. Getting it all spread out makes you making sure you have no holes in it. You must bury the edges because you must trap the heat and from the sun that comes through the plastic and hits the soil. The light of the sun becomes heat and it heats up the soil and it'll go 3-4-5-6 inches depends on your soil texture that five to six you'd have to have a very sandy soil, that's inches deep, and it kills everything in that area. And I did it for nutsedge which is a can be a terrible weed and it worked. For the time that I lived on that property. eventually of course everything moves back in Bermuda grass being one of the worst, but you can try to get it out at least for a few years.
Farmer Fred 09:47
Exactly. Farmer Fred garden rule number one: Bermuda grass is forever.
Debbie Flower 09:51
Yes, I think of you often.
Farmer Fred 09:54
Now however I did that same thing I did soil solarization one summer on an area that Was Bermuda grass and converted it into a citrus orchard. And I was not bothered by Bermuda grass for the remaining 10 years that we lived there.
Debbie Flower 10:12
It's a very powerful way to to get your soil ready. Solarized, It would also kill the roots that are in that area, the roots of the trees nearby that are going to cause potential problems.
Farmer Fred 10:25
There are a lot of important steps though in soil solarization that we don't have time to go for in here. But in today's show notes, I will provide you some links on the complete step by step of effective soil solarization that can really do a great job of controlling existing grass and rhizomes, existing nematode issues, pest problems, seeds that you don't want to have whatever, it's very effective, especially if the soil is moist before you cover it. And it can kill, I think roots or roots and seeds down about eight to 12 inches, as long as you keep it covered and allow that temperature to get up to 120-140 degrees.
Debbie Flower 11:09
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a temperature process.
Farmer Fred 11:13
And none of this answers Jim's questions. But the fact of the matter is, when you're building a raised bed, before you pound your first nail, or put your first screw in those boards, think about the existing soil and what's already there. Now let's go back to what we were talking about at the beginning. If you want air and water flow to go through that raised bed and not puddle at the bottom, you got to make sure that the soil level below (the raised beds) has somehow been incorporated with the new soil that you're bringing in. And it doesn't have to be deep, it doesn't even have to be roto-tilled. And if you just take a spading fork, loosen up the existing soil, put down an inch or two of the new soil. That might be enough.
Debbie Flower 11:57
Yes, whatever you're putting on top, many people use bagged media, or they get it in bulk from a soil supply place that will have a lot of organic matter in it. And it's different, has way more organic matter in it. Whether you're using bagged soil, or you're buying a mix from a supply place, it has much more organic matter in it than your field soil does, just by definition. Unless you live in a Delta River or Delta area. The water travels the path of least resistance and it will go down through your very nice, very organic soil that's in your raised bed. And when it reaches the field soil that is much more mineral, much less organic matter, it will stop. And it will build up until there's so much water in the bed that the next drop actually pushes the water out. And then you'll get water on the surface of the soil around the raised bed. But a better solution, better for your plants too, because it provides a better a deeper root system and you don't go through this saturation period is to take some of the new stuff, whatever that is, the bag material or the stuff you bought in bulk. And lay about a two inch layer on top. Use a tool, a spading fork is definitely a good one, turn it into about two more inches. So you've got about a four inch transition zone that is a 50-50 mix of your new soil that you're going to put in your raised bed and your existing soil which is your landscape, then the water will not build up, stop at that layer and build up in your raised bed, it will drain deep into the soil below and your roots will have the opportunity to grow down there, for things like tomatoes.
Farmer Fred 13:34
So Jim, in a nutshell, what we're trying to tell you is cut the roots out.
Debbie Flower 13:39
Yeah. And I would not use plastic under that raised bed. Because it's gonna stop water even if you put some holes in it. And eventually it breaks down. And then you've got all these plastic shreds in your soil. And it's a mess.
Farmer Fred 13:54
Yeah, landscape fabric isn't much better than plastic either. It can be very messy. I would think too, that even the pores in landscape fabric buried to that level would eventually clog.
Debbie Flower 14:05
Yes, and roots will grow right into it. They find that they love it. They love it, they find it very accommodating. It does not keep weeds out it actually helps them anchor into the landscape. So roots coming up from the bottom could do the same thing. So those two are out. I didn't even understand the metal flashing one. Well, I pictured was metal going straight down the sides of the bed, which just deepens where the roots would go. Anyway.
Farmer Fred 14:33
I think that can be a short term solution. And the fact that would probably be good for five or 10 years but I mean that's what they would do to control say running bamboo, would be to put down big sheets of some sort of galvanized metal, maybe as deep as 36 inches and surrounding the plant to keep it from doing that. So I guess you could do that as well. Except, I think where Jim lives, it's fairly rocky soil. So good luck with that.
Debbie Flower 15:03
Right, that's gonna be a lot of work and you want ideally zero seams. That's not going to be possible, but you're going to have one seam somewhere at most, at least, you might have more where roots are, because roots will get into those seams and start to grow. So yes, if you went deep, it would keep the redwood tree roots from getting under the bed. So that is a possibility. And you could use that or with or just by itself, use the mesh of metal. Critters live in soil. moles live in soil. gophers live in soil. And they can come up underneath your bed and do damage from underneath. And so if you line the base of your wood, four by eight, raised bed with mesh material, but it needs to be the word escapes me.
Farmer Fred 15:53
It's pretty good, heavy gauge, half inch hardware cloth.
Debbie Flower 15:57
Right? Galvanized, right, right? Yes, so needs to be galvanized hardware cloth that you would probably staple to the inside of the wood and have it come up the sides aways, so that these critters that live in the soil cannot get into the roots of your plants and water and air can travel freely from your bed into the field soil.
Farmer Fred 16:20
That will do a good job stopping gophers and moles. If you want to stop rats, squirrels, skunks, raccoons. Good luck.
Debbie Flower 16:29
Yeah, really.
Farmer Fred 16:33
So basically, Jim, yeah, you're gonna have to cut the tree roots or pay your neighbor to take that tree out.
Debbie Flower 16:38
Wow, good luck with that one. Yeah.
Farmer Fred 16:41
it's just a thought. Good luck, Jim. All right. Once again, we have gone to the root of the matter. And with that, thank you, Debbie Flower, for your help on our little question and answer.
Debbie Flower 16:52
You're welcome Fred.
Farmer Fred 16:57
You have a saw? You have pruners? And you're staring at your shrubs and trees wondering how do I prune these? What's the best way to prune them? When's the best season to prune them? There are many books on the subject of tree pruning and shrub pruning. We talked with Michael Santos recently, he's a consulting arborist in the San Francisco Bay Area. And we talked about some of his favorite sources for pruning information.
Farmer Fred 17:26
What are some of your favorite pruning and training books that you like to recommend to your clients?
Michael Santos 17:34
Well, certainly one of the agencies that you've mentioned is the International Society of aboriculture, the ISA. And on their website, it is ISA-arbor.com. They have a lot of good helpful information on there for consumers on pruning and maintaining trees. I think one of the books that I like, that is easy to follow, and it's for the trade but it's also for, for individuals and homeowners is a book entitled, "Structural Pruning, a Guide for the Green Industry" that was put out by the, by the ISA. And it's an excellent book with very good illustrations as well as photographs about what proper pruning is. And also I would mentioned that on the UC Cooperative Extension website, there is information about young tree pruning for the proper the proper pruning and, and structural pruning of young trees to develop overall a good form for the future.
Farmer Fred 18:47
There you go. You start them young, and you'll have a good tree, no doubt about it. So that book again you mentioned, "structural pruning, a guide for the green industry" published by the International Society of Arboriculture. I'm gonna grab one of my favorites here. The beauty of working from home I can just reach up on the shelf. I am a big fan of the American Horticultural Society's book, "Pruning and Training: the Definitive Guide to pruning trees, shrubs and climbers" just because it has, as the book you recommended does, it has lots of great illustrations and easy to follow instructions on pruning and training, shrubs, trees, fruit trees, and so much more in this book. It's a excellent reference book, The American horticultural society's "Pruning and Training."
Michael Santos 19:41
And Fred I would add that the National Arbor Day Foundation also has a variety of printed information that I believe is available on their website that is oriented toward homeowners and gardening enthusiasts as well.
Farmer Fred 19:58
Another website with good tree pruning Information is sponsored by the ISA. The name of the website is "trees are good.org" then click on the link called "tree owner information". And you will find lots of great information about pruning trees. Once again, that website, trees are good.org.
Farmer Fred 20:20
Every week here on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast we have a Plant of the Week, as presented by the superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum, Warren Roberts. In late winter, early spring if you're looking for something with spicy scented blossoms, and it needs some winter cold, (barking dogs) I'll wait for the dogs. Is that it? Thank you. If you're looking for a winter blooming shrub with wonderfully spicy scented blossoms that need some winter cold don't look any further than wintersweet. And Warren Roberts, who's here to tell us about it, will now pronounce the botanical name. I won't try.
Warren Roberts 21:03
Chimonanthus, like chim chimini chim, but we're talking about a shrub, not a chimney. Chimonanthus praecox, wintersweet, and it's related to the spicebush in the family that Calycanthaceae, but we are concentraring on Chimonanthus praecox itself. The fragrance is unforgettable. It's sort of a spicy, sweet, exotic fragrance that really catches you. So a good place to plant a Chimonanthus praecox is near the front door or under the bedroom windows, someplace where you will be spending some time and really enjoy it. It also blooms when there are no bees at the plant so it shows up nicely. Now I'm very fond of this particular plant for the fragrance. It brings back lots of good memories, nothing like fragrance to do that. It also comes in a number of different colors and forms. The shrub itself is kind of an open growing shrub, not particularly distinguished. But the flowers. Oh my goodness. The typical form has kind of ivory colored flowers with the maroon centers. And something about the flower picks up sunlight. And it's almost as if the plant has been electrified. When the sun kisses the flower, this flower seems to magnify the light of the sun.
Farmer Fred 22:34
And I guess the flowers lasts a long time.
Warren Roberts 22:36
They can last for several months, I think, and they're still flowering when the leafs start coming out. There are yellow flowered forms or selections of this plant, which again, continuing a theme, of bringing sunlight in the garden. Some of them have no maroon color at all. And some of them also have the typical maroon centers. The plant is related to the Calycanthus, which is spicebush, which is a native to California, and also to the south, different species. And then there's one in China that has white flowers, but concentrating on the Chimonanthus itself. One of the species called nitens is evergreen. But the flowers are not particularly fragrant. However, it is used for making hedges. And there are about four or five other species as well.
Farmer Fred 23:33
This is a rather tall plant too, isn't it like 10 to 15 feet tall?
Warren Roberts 23:38
Yes, or fairly quickly up to about five or six feet and then slowly gets even taller. I suppose you could even put it up as a small tree.
Farmer Fred 23:49
Yes, if you don't have a life yeah.
Warren Roberts 23:56
Or are just pouring love and attention to this particularly nice plant. The fragrance is very similar to sweet box, the Sarcococca rustifolia, that's a little bit tender. Chimonanthus praecox though is pretty hardy for a wide range.
Farmer Fred 24:15
It's always nice when we can talk about a plant that's doing something in late winter and early spring that not only has colorful flowers, but a wonderful aroma and the wintersweet fits that bill.
Warren Roberts 24:26
It certainly does.
Farmer Fred 24:28
Go ahead and pronounce that botanical name one more time.
Warren Roberts 24:30
Chimonanthus. Chim chiminey Chimonanthus. Chimonanthus praecox.
Farmer Fred 24:35
Wintersweet will say the label at your local nursery but check it out. It's winter sweet, a deciduous shrub and grows throughout most of the United States. full sun or part shade, moderate water. Sounds like a winner. Another great Plant of the Week, and we'll have more information about this plant in today's show notes as well. Warren Roberts is the superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum for more information about that spectacular botanical wonderland, you can visit them online at Arboretum dot UC davis dot edu. Warren, thanks for the plant of the week, Wintersweet.
Warren Roberts 25:10
Thank you, Fred
Farmer Fred 25:15
This podcast began at the same time the ramifications of the Coronavirus epidemic started to hit home. That was back in April of 2020. And you may recall back then we were coming to grips with phrases such as "quarantine in place", or "shelter at home". And we began to figure out what you could do around the house to keep yourself from going stir crazy. Many of you began gardening for the first time, and that was a good thing, for a lot of reasons. For one thing, you were getting outside. Also, you're moving your body, you're creating beauty, and you were cultivating gratitude for your new, living creations. You were planting flowers, shrubs, trees, you are growing food. And you liked it. Many of you are continuing to garden in 2021. Well, good for you. You're cultivating gratitude. And now as we enter the second year of the Coronavirus epidemic, we are more anxious than ever. You're wondering about all those new vaccines. Where are they? Why am I not getting a shot? or two? Is it really a cure? Psychiatrists across the country are dealing with a lot of disappointment and burnout. There are steps you can take to help with your own mental health. By cultivating in your garden, you're cultivating gratitude, and gratitude is good for you. The Harvard Medical School newsletter said gratitude is strongly and consistently associated with greater happiness. Gratitude helps people feel more positive emotions, relish good experiences, it improves their health. It helps them deal with adversity and build strong relationships. And one way mental health experts advise you to kickstart your gratitude is to keep a gratitude journal. Write down the positive moments of the day, the people and things you saw or interacted with that brought a smile to your face. And that brings us back to gardening. As a gardener, keeping a garden diary is a great idea. Not only because it helps you keep track of what you planted, where you planted it, and its success or failure. A garden diary can also be your gratitude journal. That's where you write down about the beautiful flowers, the interesting perennials, the tasty food that you're growing. Take a walk through your garden each day. Bring along your garden journal, you'll see a lot to be grateful for: a flower in bloom, Interesting looking foliage on a tree. The fruit on a shrub. interesting insects (Is that a good guy or a bad guy?). even the interesting looking weeds that pop up this time of year. Also, plant yourself a gratitude garden plot. Put in plants that you find particularly pleasing or those that have a long blooming or fruiting season. And the key here: put it in a spot where you can see it easily from inside the house. Outside my office window, I've planted flowering maples, the abutilon, it's the "Tiger Eye" variety, and it produces some very interesting looking red and yellow Chinese lantern shaped flowers, which attracts hummingbirds like crazy, and it attracts them year round here in California. The dense foliage of the plant also attracts other small birds such as finches, they enjoy hopping through the branches. And one time I remember during a live radio show, a bird we have never seen in our area, a hooded oriole, paid a visit to the Abutilon Jungle here. At that time, the garden conversation between me and Debbie Flower stopped. Immediately we turned to scurrying through my bird ID books to identify the bird. And actually we were grateful for that interruption, and we were tickled that the hooded Oriole should pay us a visit. And besides what you see, don't forget to be grateful for all that your garden attracts that appeals to your other senses: the aroma of a fragrant plant such as the winter Daphne, the pleasant sounds of all the birds that visit, and the warmth of the sun. It can help remind yourself every day what you're grateful for, it can boost your mental spirits, and help deal with the stress of this ongoing pandemic. And, you can cultivate that gratitude with your garden.
Farmer Fred 29:33
Garden Basics comes out every Tuesday and Friday and it's available just about anywhere podcasts are handed out. And that includes Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, I Heart Radio, Overcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Tune-in… and hey, Alexa, play the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, would you please? Thank you for listening, subscribing and leaving comments. We appreciate it.
