083 Feed the Soil, Not the Plants. Snail, Slug Control Products Explained. Daffodils

We revisit one of the most popular segments ever aired on our program: why feeding your soil yields better results than feeding your plants. Sound confusing? It’s actually quite simple!
You can learn a lot when you hang out with retired college horticultural professor Debbie Flower at a nursery. We recently spent a morning looking at all the snail and slug control products that are available. Which are the most effective? Which ones are, shall we say, are dubious? We find out.
Also, Warren Roberts of the UC Davis Arboretum talks about one of the brightest lights in the late winter garden, the daffodil.
 It’s all on episode 83 of the Garden Basics podcast, brought to you by Smart Pots. And we will do it all in under 30 minutes. Let’s go!

Pictured:
The Chard is cheery and the Parsley is perky when grown in a raised bed, topped with several inches of oak leaf mulch. The mulch inhibits weeds, moderates soil temperature, preserves soil moisture, and best of all: as it breaks down, it feeds the soil.

Links:
G&B Organic Fertilizers
Worm Castings
Worm Bins
Snail, Slug Control Products (look for the active ingredient, Iron Phosphate)
Daffodils
UC Davis Arboretum

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Transcript

083 Feed the Soil, Not the Plants. Snail Control. Daffodils  29:05

SPEAKERS

Warren Roberts, Debbie Flower, Giselle Schoniger, Farmer Fred

Farmer Fred  00:00

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred. 

Farmer Fred  00:20

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information you've come to the right spot. 

Farmer Fred  00:32

We revisit one of the most popular segments ever aired on our program, why feeding your soil yields better results than feeding your plants. Sound confusing? Well, it's actually quite simple. You know, you can learn a lot when you hang out with retired college horticultural Professor Debbie Flower at a nursery. We recently spent a morning looking at all the snail and slug control products that are available. Which ones are the most effective? Which ones are, shall we say, rather dubious? We find out. Also Warren Roberts of the UC Davis Arboretum talks about one of the brightest lights in the late winter garden, the daffodil. It's all on episode 83 of the Garden Basics podcast, brought to you by Smart Pots, and we do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go. 

Farmer Fred  01:21

Hi, everybody, Farmer Fred on the road at Eldorado Nursery and Garden in Shingle Springs (CA). It's their Planta-Palooza event.  One of the speakers that is appearing here today works for Kellogg Garden Products. And she is a big advocate of doing things organically and also building up your soil. Giselle Schoniger, she's their organic teacher at Kellogg's.

Giselle Schoniger  01:43

That's right. Thank you so much for having me on your show. You're  such a delight. You know, I think that my background is, as I've shared with you in the past, actually is in the use of chemicals. I went to a production agricultural school. And about 16 years ago, I transitioned over to organics. And I've helped build three different brands of organic products. I tell you, all my soil and fertilizer classes made far more sense when I started working with nature instead of trying to control her. And, you know, I think that when we look at fertility, of how we feed plants, most of us that are using chemical fertilizers to feed plants, truly that is what we're doing, we're feeding the plant, but at the expense of the soil.

Farmer Fred  02:25

What a lot of people don't realize is you should be feeding the soil, not the plant. If you feed the soil, you will be feeding the plant because that's how the plant gets its nutrients.

Giselle Schoniger  02:35

Absolutely. When we look at chemical fertilizers and you know  this is just part of the story, it's not just about NPK, nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. But when you see a 30-30-30 NPK or 20-20-20, or a triple 16. That material is a chemically formulated product. It's salt, it's a salt-based product. It forces that plant to grow and it creates a plant with very thin cell walls, then leaves, stems and flowers. That plant is like an attractant to insects and diseases. But the damage is what we're doing below the soil. And those salts kill off beneficial life. And when you kill the good guys off now you have a proliferation of disease-causing pathogens. Organics work in the opposite fashion. And an all purpose fertilizer might only be a 4-4-4 NPK. But it's about feeding the life in the soil as you just said. So when you build good life in the soil, the natural good guys will always eventually out compete the bad guys. And above ground. The plant has a thick cell wall, thick leaf, stems and flowers. That plant now has more of a resiliency it has a better immune system, if you will, from insect and disease attack.

Farmer Fred  03:46

What are the key words on synthetic fertilizers that would indicate it contains salt?

Giselle Schoniger  03:52

Well, you know, actually most people wouldn't know that on a fertilizer, you wouldn't really understand that that is really what the component is when it goes down through the soil profile. Chemical fertilizers, very much like let's say steer manure, you know, 50 years ago, steer manure was a good product. But when you think about how confined the animals are, how regimented their diet is, they're not grass-fed often. So it's high in salt. Those fertilizers are also high in salt. When you add a salt material to to a clay soil, let's say you're only going to compact that soil further. But back to your question, really anytime you see of material where the NPK is higher than let's say, a 12, a triple 12 and you see something like urea or ammonium. Those are the kinds of things that should really alert you to the fact if you can't really read what the words are, like on a lot of the food that we eat today. Pretty much those are going to be materials that are artificially formulated.

Farmer Fred  04:57

Now you mentioned steer manure and the amount of salts it has. And I imagine a lot of people are asking themselves well, wait a minute...steer manure... Isn't that an organic fertilizer? Wouldn't that be good for the soil?

Giselle Schoniger  05:07

Well steer manure a lot of people use it's it, let me put it this way, it is better than not using anything. But it is truly high in salt. So it's a value product. I mean, of course, people use it. And everybody's watching their paycheck, you know,  their pocket book, which we all have to do today. So if that's what someone chooses to use, but just know if you're adding it to a clay soil that's already compact and dense, you're truly making the soil more compacted and more dense by adding that salt. So we have other types of manures we have some chicken manure, we have a product called the Gardner and Bloome line has a product called Harvest Supreme. It does have 15% chicken manure in it, it has mychorrazai, it has earthworm castings, kelp, we add a whole host of organic nutrients within that material. So we have a whole breadth of product lines. We have worm castings. Worm castings are awesome to add into  either your raised bed or in-ground plantings and are not going to be as high in salt.

Farmer Fred  06:09

And you don't need that much worm castings for it to be effective either.

Giselle Schoniger  06:14

I love worm castings. I tell you, if people would really start using worm castings, or create, I have a worm bin, which I love. It's, it's like a science project the first few times you do it, but once you get the hang of it, you realize you're really not doing anything except feeding them. The worms are doing all the work. And you can have some fun with some of these materials, especially in raised beds. You know this has become the new trend over the years. Instead of dealing with our hardpan native soil if we build a raised bed. Now I taught gardening as therapy I was working as a horticultural therapist for 10 years in convalescent homes. At that time, you know, it was really for people in wheelchairs. But when we look now, why not raise the garden up to us, we're getting older Fred.

Farmer Fred  06:56

You know, it's nice to have that raised bed.

Giselle Schoniger  06:59

But the beauty is we get to layer in the kind of materials that we need. If you find that it's getting compressed down, fluff it up with some materials, our soil building compost is great for adding I look at it that product as fiber, just like we need fiber. Now this is a little bit of a stretch. But just like we need fiber to keep us our system functioning properly, the soil needs fiber as well to aerate it, to open it up, to help with drainage, to allow the beneficial aerobic microorganisms in the soil to allow them to breathe. Because if it's too compacted, that life in the soil can't breathe, which means the roots can't breathe, which means water can't percolate through the soil. So raised beds are fantastic. And you can have some fun by adding in different types of materials as you go through the season. You know, it's fascinating, this whole movement that we're seeing it's it's almost like the back to the earth movement finally arrived from the 60s in the 70s. And I think because we're so tech, we're so involved with technology, people are on the road more. Our lives have become so hectic that this idea of of growing our own food and slowing down a little bit has really become part of our culture today.

Farmer Fred  08:20

It boils down to if you feed the soil, you're feeding the plants.

Giselle Schoniger  08:23

That's right. It's a totally different approach. You know, we took a detour in the early 30s and 40s. When we started using synthetics, really in the early 1940s. Right around World War Two, when we started creating a lot of these synthetics, we were using minerals, you know, farmers were definitely a farm, it was like a closed system. All that organic matter,  the manure got composted and put back into the earth. But when we started focusing on production, you know, it's really sort of a misnomer that we created more food, because what we really did is we destroyed the soil system, we farmed the very life out of the soil. And in over maybe a decade from the 1940s into the 50s. We had to triple and quadruple the amount of chemical fertilizers we were using to try and get the yields that we were getting in the first few years. So it's really truly a misnomer to say that we increased yields. It's short, that was a short term, temporary result. And and you're right Fred, it's about feeding the life in the soil. The organisms in the soil secrete enzymes that break organic matter down. I mean, if we didn't have all this biology in the soil, the Earth would be full of debris, but they're cycling these nutrients back into the soil and roots then pull from the soil what they need when they need it.

Farmer Fred  09:44

All it takes is mulch, all it takes is compost, maybe a cover crop or two. And you can have healthy soil as well. Well, Giselle Schoniger from Kellogg Garden Products, Thanks for spending a few minutes with us and telling us about our soil.

Giselle Schoniger  09:56

Thank you, Farmer Fred. It's been a delight. Thanks to all of our customers and all our listeners out there thank you so much for your support.

Farmer Fred  10:07

We're glad to have Smart Pots on board supporting the Garden Basics podcast. Smart Pots are the original award winning fabric planter. They're sold worldwide. Smart Pots are proudly made 100% in the USA. I'm pretty picky about who I allow to advertise on this program. My criteria, though, is pretty simple. It has to be a product I like; a product I use; a product I would buy again. And Smart Pots clicks all those boxes. They're durable. They're reusable. Smart Pots are available at independent garden centers and select Ace and True Value stores nationwide. To find a store near you visit SmartPots.com slash Fred. It's Smart Pots, the original award winning fabric planter. go to SmartPots dot com slash Fred for more info and that special Farmer Fred discount on your next Smart Pot purchase, go to SmartPots.com slash Fred. 

Farmer Fred  11:06

You know what's fun to do is to hang out at a nursery or garden center with our favorite retired college horticultural Professor, Debbie Flower. Recently, we visited a local nursery and wandered over to the slug and snail control aisle. There certainly a lot to choose from there.

Farmer Fred  11:29

Let's talk a little bit about mechanical, cultural physical controls for controlling these pests (snails and slugs), which are soon you're going to find them in places you don't want to find them. And probably where they are right now is under some protection.

Debbie Flower  11:43

in the mulch and in the soil. I was planting a plant the other day into my landscape. I found their eggs in in my field soil, I use lots of mulch, they love that, and they like wet places. So they could be in the drain holes of a pot that you have outside.  I have a bird bath and you know the birds take a bath and some water goes over the side. They're probably right under that bird bath base. Any place that in my raised bed, they're probably between the wood and the soil. During the day they need to hide in moist cool places. And so they're tucked in these little corners.

Farmer Fred  12:23

So if you know where the moist places are in your yard, and especially if you have plants with a lot of green foliage around like agapanthus, underneath piles of lumber, that's where you're gonna find them.

Debbie Flower  12:35

Yes. And speaking of piles of lumber, that's one of the mechanical controls. Put out a piece of wood and let them collect under it, they'll come out at night to do their feeding, and then they'll collect under the wood because that's a nice protected spot in the morning and you go out and pick up that wood and there will be slugs and snails attached to it or under it. And that's a way to collect them and dispose of them. 

Farmer Fred  12:57

You mentioned that you found their eggs, what do their eggs look like?

Debbie Flower  13:01

Their eggs are white and round and small. If you know what time release pelleted fertilizer looks like it looks very much like that. small as in eighth of an inch, maybe a little bigger than that, around. 

Farmer Fred  13:20

pretty good size. 

Debbie Flower  13:21

Yes, they are. They're very visible sometimes they're in big clusters. There was a time when we unpotted a plant to transplant it at school up into a bigger pot. And  50% of this four inch pot was full of a whole bunch of slug eggs. So sometimes they're in a big collection and sometimes they're just individual. what I was seeing was individual eggs dispersed throughout the soil. It may have been that I disturbed the  mess and spread them myself. But they're wet. They're white, white and sort of translucent and they're wet because their whole life of a slug depends on moisture.

Farmer Fred  13:59

What did you do with the eggs?

Debbie Flower  14:00

I just left them and put slug bait out. Okay, if they if I if it were a whole collection of them? Well actually I was I was popping them. Okay,

Farmer Fred  14:10

Okay, all right.

Debbie Flower  14:11

When I could get to them. but I know there are more than what I saw. So I planted the plant and then put I have lots of mulch and that's a place they like to live as in mulch between the mulch in the soil. That's another wet protected spot. So after I planted the plant and watered it in, always water after planting, and then came out with a slug bait and put that out.

Farmer Fred  14:33

What is the active ingredient that you look for when shopping for a snail and slug control product.

Debbie Flower  14:38

I prefer an iron phosphate type product. It will say that there's always a list on a pesticide label that says active ingredients and it will say iron phosphate. This one says sodium ferric EDTA. that's something different. This one says metaldehyde and that's a different product. Metaldehyde, I prefer not to use because it's poisonous to small animals like pets, they have to eat a lot of it to to be harmed. But I'd rather just avoid that. I have never used  the sodium ferric EDTA. Sodium is not something that is good for plants, they need a tiny bit of it, but not much. And a buildup of sodium in my soil would concern me. Sodium, like in your table salt, but also the iron phosphate has its downside, if you use too much it is toxic to worms. So when you apply this, you need to look at... there's a whole big booklet about application.

Farmer Fred  15:44

And it's actually when you apply these granules, you apply them very sporadically, there isn't very much you have to put down. Sparsely, it's like what a teaspoon or a tablespoon per..?

Debbie Flower  15:55

tablespoon per 100 square feet. Wow. So a 10 by 10. Maybe your whole vegetable garden is 10 by 10. Yeah, one tablespoon. And that's because it can be toxic to worms at a higher population.

Farmer Fred  16:08

Yeah, and when you read the warnings on the back, usually I say well, you choose the one with the less toxic signal word. The three signal words are caution or warning and danger. And everything that is here has the the least toxic of the of the signal words of caution. But then you go and read the labels. And I'm looking at the one with sodium ferric EDTA. And it says caution causes moderate eye irritation. avoid contact with eyes or clothing. wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling and before eating, drinking, chewing gum, using tobacco, and using the toilet. And then if you pick up the product that has metaldehyde for the active ingredient. The precautions and restrictions include this warning, "this pesticide may be harmful to children and fatal to dogs and other domestic animals. if ingested. Children and dogs may be attracted to metaldehyde products, both in the package and when applied. Children and domestic animals must be kept out of treated areas from the start of application until the applied product is no longer visible." And they're not kidding. If it's on the label. It's the law. The labels are law.

Debbie Flower  17:22

Yes.

Farmer Fred  17:23

So that's why we always say read and follow all label directions. Okay. Now you're looking at the iron phosphate product.

Debbie Flower  17:30

I am. It says similar to what the sodium ferric one did, causes moderate eye irritation. avoid contact with eyes or clothing wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling before eating drinking chewing gum using tobacco and using the toilet. almost the exact wording.

Farmer Fred  17:46

It is the exact warning.  So then the  three we looked at the iron phosphate and the sodium ferric EDTA would be the least toxic.

Debbie Flower  17:58

Correct, right. There's one more product here that I have not used much have you used this one?

Farmer Fred  18:04

Yeah, that one because it has two active ingredients. It has iron phosphate and it has spinosad so basically not only does it control slugs and snails, it will also control things like the turn it over and let's read it...rolypolys!

Debbie Flower  18:21

Don't be afraid to open the big booklet label on the back of the pesticide. Treat it gently in case you don't buy it and you want it to look nice for the next person. But the label is there to be read. Okay, Pest Control: earwigs cutworms sowbugs pillbugs, crickets, slugs and snails. I don't use this one much because I would rather keep things in balance in the garden. But when I have little baby either I've put seeds in the garden direct seeded into the garden or I have put very young tender babies into the garden I will put us a little bit of this around those plants because the earwigs, cut worms, sow bugs and pill bugs and crickets will eat young plants. And so I'm just trying to protect that plant until it can grow out of that stage where it's attracted to those insects.

Farmer Fred  19:14

And yet here's another product for snail and slug control. I don't think it kills them I think it just repels them but the active ingredient are various oils like rosemary oil.

Debbie Flower  19:25

Yes, and I wondered see attached booklet. I wondered if you have to actually touch for this says use on fruits vegetables, citrus and ornamentals. Yeah the citrus is a favorite of slugs and snails. And it says to control slugs and snails by contact or as a repellent. So apply it directly to snails and slugs. As repellent apply it directly to the plants when feeding is first noticed. Apply in late evening for best results which makes sense because the oil will be the strongest when you first apply it and the slugs and snails feed At night

Farmer Fred  20:00

now I'm wondering if there are temperature restrictions on the use of this product. I would think using an oil on a hot day on a plant may not be a good idea.

Debbie Flower  20:09

Yes, they don't mention that here. But you're absolutely right. You wouldn't want to apply this. When the temperatures get above about 85 degrees, it would spot your plant you would see damage to the plant. Not much else. It's also caution label,

Farmer Fred  20:22

which is the least toxic of the three signal words

Debbie Flower  20:27

and has the same well it says harmful if swallowed. Avoid breathing the mist may cause irritation of nose, throat or skin we haven't seen that before. avoid contact with skin eyes clothing, wear protective eyewear, waterproof gloves. wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling before eating, drinking, chewing using tobacco. Remove and wash contaminated clothing before reuse. Keep all persons and pets out of the treated areas until spray has dried

Farmer Fred  20:53

but you can chew gum.

Debbie Flower  20:56

So although it when reading the label, it sounds like it's the least toxic of the chemicals. It has more PPE, personal protective equipment, that they specify you wear and it has more can potentially cause more damage to your respiratory system than the others. So different things to consider when you're applying when you're choosing your slug and snail control.

Farmer Fred  21:29

Here on the garden basics podcast we like to bring in Warren Roberts, the superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum to give us a plant of the week a plant that can be seen probably nationwide, and it just might be putting on a show currently where you live. If not now perhaps it was a few weeks ago or perhaps a few weeks from now. Warren,   it's kind of the bulby time where the bulbs are doing their thing. You have one in mind.

Warren Roberts  21:58

Well  I do. I'm thinking of that genus, Narcissus. That includes what we call Narcissus and daffodils, and especially since part of my heritage is Welsh,. My name is Welsh, Warren Roberts. March 1 is the St. Davids feast day. I know that's in the past now that you would have to indicate that you're Welsh she would the tradition was you wear a leek on your lapel, There you go, right. And I'm particularly fond of the dwarf Narcissus because you get all the show, and really none of the mess. Because when the daffodils are through blooming, you would think oh, you just mowed them down and away you go. But no, you have to let the leaves actually die in place as the bulb I guess you can see absorbs the food and the energy from the leaves. And then are ready to bloom next year. So if you clip your daffodils, the Narcissus to the ground, after they bloom, often the population will diminish because it's not getting the food that it needs. So if you have little ones with little leaves, you just let them be. Don't worry about it. And some of my favorites of all is one called Tete a Tete, which is a dwarf daffodil. And you find it often in grocery stores and whatnot. This time of year, and you know, bring into the house and enjoy the flowers until theyfade. Then you could take it outdoors and plant it. If you're in a place where the ground freezes,  you'd wait until the thaw. Then you have it in the garden forever and ever. It's a good one there are a number of other small a daffodils are like something like Baby Moon, King Lear, Jet Fire and so on. And then there's another species called Narcissus bobocodium, the hoop petticoat daffodil, which is a charming flower. It doesn't look like a typical daffodil, but it's beautiful and a nice bright yellow. So I'm very fond of these. Another advantage of the genus Narcissus is that it's poisonous. So you couldn't eat them if you were starving, but that also means that gophers and other creatures don't eat them. Sometimes they move them around. So a daffodil will come up at a place where you hadn't expected it. And another thing is that they they don't mind garden watering they don't mind wet conditions in spring as long as the soil is fairly well drained and In areas where there is no summer rain, they also survive. So you can plant them out. I have have hundreds of them planted along the road, actually more of the Narcissus kind which had the smaller flowers, but very satisfactory plants. I've not heard of cases of animals getting poisoned by them could be in the literature, but they defend themselves and they offer a lot of beauty. The thing is to plant the little ones because you get all the show a lot less work, or none at all. Really.

Farmer Fred  25:33

I can hear through my window, people yelling at me saying: "Is he saying that the deer won't eat them?"

Warren Roberts  25:40

Well, a deer will always nibble anything, Yes. So you can't say that they're safe from al least some predation. But as far as I know, they are deer resistant. So you could actually put them on the list for that. There is a town in California it's called Volcano, which has a place called Daffodil Hill where there are 1000s and 1000s have been planted out there beautiful during the spring, and then you don't have to worry about watering them. Although on a very dry dry year, I would say while the leaves are still green,  a mid-spring watering after the flowers fade would help. Because I've noticed that in dry years, you get the flowers, but the the plants are not as vigorous.

Farmer Fred  26:29

If people want to see some gorgeous pictures of Daffodil Hill, you can just do an internet search of Daffodil Hill. It's in Amador county, in Volcano and it is just a gorgeous display when it's in bloom. So Happy St David's day. I would say it in Welsh, but I would screw it up. Warren Roberts is the superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum. And by the way, if you want to find out more about the UC Davis Arboretum visit them online at Arboretum dot UCdavis.edu.  the plant of the week this week, all the wonderful members of the Narcissus family, especially that easy care plant that lasts forever, The daffodil. Thank you Warren.

Warren Roberts  27:11

You're welcome Fred.

Farmer Fred  27:16

The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast has a lot of information posted at each episode: transcripts, links to any products or books mentioned during the show, and other helpful links for even more information. Plus, you can listen to just the portions of the show that interest you, it’s been divided into easily accessible chapters.  Plus you’ll find more information about how to get in touch with us. Leave an audio question without making a phone call via Speakpipe, at speak pipe dot com. it’s easy, give it a try. And you just might hear your voice on the Garden Basics podcast! If you’re listening to us via Apple podcasts, put your question in the Ratings and Reviews section. Text us the question and pictures, or leave us your question at: 916-292-8964.916-292-8964. E-mail: fred@farmerfred.com . If you tell us where you’re from, that will help us greatly to accurately answer your garden questions. Because all gardening is local. In the show notes you’ll find links to all our social media outlets, including facebook, instagram, twitter, and youtube. Also, a link to the farmerfred.com website. 

Farmer Fred  28:42

Thanks for listening to Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, brought to you by Smart Pots. Garden Basics comes out every Tuesday and Friday. It's available on many podcast platforms including Apple, Spotify, Google IHeart, Stitcher and many more. And if you're listening on Apple, please leave a comment or a rating. That helps us decide which garden topics you'd like to see addressed. And again, thank you.