GB 105 High Chill Apples. Plant of the Week: Weigela
29:42
SPEAKERS
Tom Spellman, Warren Roberts, Farmer Fred
Farmer Fred 00:00
Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred.
Farmer Fred 00:20
Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.
Farmer Fred 00:32
High chill apples. They're known for their great flavor, but these apples supposedly require a lot of cold winter temperatures to thrive. Well, guess what: they're finding a new home. Trials in Southern California, in areas that seldom get below freezing, are proving to be a good place for several high chill apple varieties. Tom Spellman of Dave Wilson Nursery tells us about some great tasting apples that should now be grown more often in USDA zones 9 and 10. The Plant of the Week. It's a very popular, widely adaptable shrub with a lavish springtime display of funnel shaped, one inch long, reddish colored flowers. The weigela. Warren Roberts of the UC Davis Arboretum will tell us all about it. It's all on episode 105 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. And we'll do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go.
Farmer Fred 01:32
When we talk about chill hours, what exactly are we talking about? We're talking about how you can have better fruit production if you know what chill hours are all about. But as I'm very fond of saying, everything you know is wrong. And what we know about chill hours has come under scrutiny. And there are a lot of great studies going on to see if that is necessarily true anymore. Can you grow, for example, a high chill fruit in a low chill area? And what exactly is "chill"? What the heck are we talking about? Let's talk to the guy, Tom Spellman, who's conducting experiments in Southern California growing high chill fruit trees, Tom Spellman is with Dave Wilson Nursery. And Tom, talk a little bit about the history of this plot that you have going.
Tom Spellman 02:16
Sure Fred, one of the things that I am proud to be able to do through Dave Wilson Nursery is some experimental projects in Southern California's low chill areas. And you know, I've been in this business for a long time. And over the past four decades, I've been getting people that have told me, "I have a Golden delicious apple in Orange County" or "I have a Walton apple in Malibu" or an Arkansas black in Costa Mesa. I used to tell these people that probably what you really have is a variety that was Mis- tagged, they have a variety that that you think is a high chill variety, but it's probably a low chill variety. Until I started to go around and meet with some of these people and look at what they were doing and what they were growing. And sure enough, I found Arkansas Black in Costa Mesa and a Waltana apple in Malibu, and things that I couldn't explain. And this went on for the better part of two decades. And I started working some experimental projects at the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, California. So, in low-chill Orange County, one of the things that I proposed to them was I would like to put in a block of high chill apple varieties on the on the Irvine ranch project there and see if I can replicate some of these results that I've actually seen in person. And a couple of the people said, "Well, you know, that seems like a stretch". And and I remember one in particular who said, "Well, what what happens if you fail?" And I said, "Well, if I fail, nobody will ever hear a word about this, because I'm not going to publicize it." But if it's successful, I think we can change the way people think about growing apples in low chill zones. So they allowed me about a half acre plot to put in 30 different varieties of high chill apples, these are varieties that would range from 500 plus hours to up to about 1100 hours and you have to understand at the South Coast Research and Extension Center, their average chill over the years has been less than 200 hours. This project was put in in March of 2013. We've had several years where the chill accumulation was actually negative. So we had more hours above 70 during that three month period than we did ours below 45. And all of those years spread from the the Second year in the ground from the second break of dormancy, when we had a little bit of spur wood that had established itself, we've had fruit on 29 out of, or 28 out of the 30 variety. So there are definitely some that I don't think lend themselves quite as well. And it's not that they didn't produce any fruit, but they didn't produce a quality fruit. But we've had some real standouts in that program that have produced what I would consider, again, on low-size managed trees, no bigger than about seven feet tall and seven or eight feet wide, we've had very good sized crops of fruit, and it's been tasty, it's colored up well, there hasn't been anything that was produced there that I thought was of inferior quality. So this project for me was a complete success, even to the point where they had researchers coming out from the East Coast or the Midwest for other projects and programs, who basically said, "I've got to see this project, I don't believe that you can do that, you know, on Irvine, property in Southern California." So I had a lot of apple experts and some real enthusiasts, people that understand apples much better than I do, that looked at that project and scratch their heads, they were just totally amazed at what we were able to do to the point where they were like, well, what are you doing? Are you are you icing this thing down in the wintertime? And like, no, this is outdoor Irvine, temperatures, you know, so we're getting anywhere from negative chill hours to 50 or 75, or 100, or, you know, in a good year, maybe 200 or 225. But we've had fruit every single year since the second break of dormancy, which I think was just an amazing project.
Farmer Fred 06:57
Before we go on, and we'll come back and pick it up and we will name some of those winners, but I want to insert since the name of the show is Garden Basics, an explanation of what chill hours is so that people don't get lost as we get into the weeds here. So Tom, explain exactly what a chill hour is and why that's so important for fruit trees.
Tom Spellman 07:20
Well, you know, there are a lot of ways that chill hours are registered. Probably the most common model for chill, our registration is accumulation of fall and wintertime chill hours between November 1 and January 31. And that's a West Coast model. If you're, in the Midwest or back east, you're accumulation time is going to go out much longer than that. But on the west coast, we're looking at 90 days, November one to about January 31. And it would be accumulation of hours between 45, some say 50 degrees; 45 degrees, down to right at freezing down to 32. So very seldom, you know, in Southern California do we get much below 32. So most of the time, those chill hours are accumulated between that period of time and they are registered through like a CIMIS weather registration station or, you know, you could just contact your local weather service and find out what what the local chill hour accumulation is. They normally keep pretty good records on that.
Farmer Fred 08:33
if you go to Dave Wilson dot com and you start looking at the list of all the deciduous fruit trees, it usually tells you the recommended number of chill hours for this particular tree. And if you live back east or in the Midwest and you're growing fruit trees, chill isn't that big a concern. You're probably going to get the 1000 hours or 1500 hours between November and February or longer. For that really great tasting apple here in the sunbelt, it could vary. In Southern California 200 chill hours is not uncommon. Up here in Northern California, it used to be 800 to 1000. Now it's more like 400 to 800. Every year is a little bit different but we're seeing those chill hours go down and then there's the negative chill hours. And that's actually more of a chill unit situation where you're taking into consideration how warm it's also getting during the day.
Tom Spellman 09:33
Absolutely. So that the situation is if you have daytime temps that are registering above 70 degrees, which is not uncommon throughout California during that 90 day period, then that actually takes away from chill. So you could have a 10 chill-hour night and have an eight hours during that next day that are above 70 that are actually going to steal eight of your potential hours. So that's why I can say that we've had years that were negative chill, we still had hours that were below 45 or 50. But we had more hours that were above 70, during that 90 day period than were below that 45 or 50 degree numbers. So negative is absolutely possible. It's not pretty, we don't like it. I'm not big on 80 degrees in December or January, but it's not uncommon.
Farmer Fred 10:32
Explain why a fruit tree, a deciduous fruit tree, needs that cold period.
Tom Spellman 10:37
That's like a good night's sleep, Fred. They they are going to wake up in the spring and they're going to bloom and they're going to set their fruit, they're going to do their work through the spring and early summer, when they mature that fruit and put on some, some structure and then that fruit harvested later on in the summer. And then those trees begin to get tired in the fall, you've got that old foliage, now you've got daylight hours that are getting shorter, as the daylight hours get shorter, the trees get tired, they start to drop some foliage, they go into October, November, early December, and they go completely dormant. And then that's when you would consider that tree is asleep. So, it is accumulating those chill hours during that winter time period. If you allow it to go into a good dormancy, then it gets a good night's sleep, then it's going to wake up happy, it's going to do its job efficiently and have a good season. But if the chill hours are rough, if that if the tree doesn't get a good winter sleep, then it's not going to be effective when it wakes up and blooms and needs to do its work in the spring. And there are certainly other ways that you can help to achieve that dormancy. You know, I mean, there are two things that we have no control over and one is the daylight hour sequence, you know, every year, June 21 is going to be the longest day December 21. Or right around there is going to be the shortest days. So that's when we're getting supposedly, a cooler season. You know, in December, when we only have eight daylight hours instead of July, when we have 13 or 14, sometimes we want to allow that tree to get that good night's sleep and go dormant. So we have no control over that. That's going to happen the same time every year like clockwork, no changes. Now, you would think within that same period of time that you would get the coolest weather. But that doesn't always happen. We don't always get you know, 40s and 50s and 60s during those, those cool days, we can have warm days, you know, at the same period of time, but in general, we're going to get our cooler days during the shortest daylight hours. So we really don't have any control over that either. But it varies, it's not a constant like the daylight hours itself is something that varies from year to year. Now, what we do have control over is how we irrigate and how we feed. So if you're feeding too late into the season, if you're feeding in September and October and November and you're using a higher nitrogen fertilizer, that tree is going to have a hard time going dormant to begin with. That's like going to Starbucks at 11pm and getting your venti frappuccino with an extra shot of espresso and expecting to go home and go to sleep. You don't want to sleep, the tree doesn't want to sleep either. So we've got to cut off fertilizing early in the season, we've got to stop fertilizing by about the end of June. Now you want to feed early, starting in January-February, feed again in April, and again in June and then be done with it. So it's like a six months on and six months off. And the later you feed in the summer, the more difficult time you're going to have in achieving that that dormancy or that good winter sleep for that tree. Same with irrigation want to start to lighten up a little bit as we get into that late summer and I know it's still hot, it still can be bloody hot in August and September and October. But that's the time when you want to start to hold back a little bit to allow those terminal bugs on that trader to set and and start into a dormant season. It's not going to go dormant yet. But you don't want that vigorous flush of growth into October and November.
Farmer Fred 14:27
One of the reasons that high chill apple varieties are so popular is they just taste so dang good. What are the high chill apples that you tested down there in Southern California that are just so dang good?
Tom Spellman 14:42
Unusual varieties that I can highly recommend in Southern California, Coastal and inland valleys where they get nowhere near the chill that would be needed. So the first one was an old favorite of mine called Arkansas Black and Arkansas Black is a very, very firm textured apple, I mean to the point where some people have a hard time biting into an Arkansas Black, you might have to slice it. But it's very firm texture. It's a very highly colored you know, almost a pure white variety inside. The exterior color is dark, dark, dark red, almost to the point where it almost looks like it's a black apple. You know, this is one of those varieties that is a multipurpose use, you can use it in cooking, you can use it in ciders, you can use it for baking pies, you can also just eat it fresh off the tree. So it's a great late season variety. And one of the things that all of these higher chill varieties had in common is they were almost all mid to late season to late season. In the project there in Irvine, these varieties were ripening up on the tree as early as the end of August or early September, but holding on the tree until well into winter and into the point where we were having to strip the remaining apples off in mid January when we were doing our winter pruning. So you know we had apples really for months that were hanging on the trees and just getting better and better and better as time went on. So Arkansas Black is one that I would highly, highly recommend. Another one that I really liked was Cox's Orange Pippin. And you know Pippins are hard to find in the market anymore. It's very seldom that you'll go in and find anything except for commodity varieties. So being able to grow a delicious piece of fruit like Cox's Orange Pippin in an area that where people thought they could never do it before, that's huge. It's a nice variety again starting up in late September and holding right up until January on the tree and just getting better and better as time went on.
Farmer Fred 16:53
And that's a variety that does well throughout most of the United States. I think like the USDA zones, four through eight. Now all of a sudden we're talking zone nine.
Tom Spellman 17:04
And we're talking zone nine and even you know you could almost cross some of that area over into maybe what they would call a zone 10. Another one that I've never been a fan of when you buy it in the market and it's a commodity variety. It's a commodity you'll find in the market throughout most of the year and that was Golden Delicious, Golden Delicious. Oftentimes when you buy it in the market, it almost tastes like the box that it was shipped and stored in, has kind of a cardboard, mealy texture to it and I've just never been impressed with the variety but it was one that I that I had previously seen in Southern California and was recommended by a couple of friends of mine and I thought hey, I can't judge fruit by what you can oftentimes buy in the market because it's cold stored for so long. Because they want to display it you know all the time they want to have that same three by three piece of countertop you know with Golden Delicious apples and Red Delicious right next to it and braeburn or gala or Fuji or something else right next to that so I decided to put it in and I thought I'm not going to judge it by what you buy in the market. I'm going to let it do its thing and see what it does. And you know again, tree holding time probably three months, did really well. Was able to pick by mid September and holding until January. So good quality fruit, nice color, bright, bright golden color and very crispy, crunchy texture you know much much different than anything that you would have ever purchased in the market.
Farmer Fred 18:37
I would like to offer a warning to people: please do not judge the quality of fruit by what you are tasting from purchases at the grocery store. If you can, get it at a farmers market; even better, grow it in your backyard. You will never go back.
Tom Spellman 18:51
Absolutely, absolutely. So I think a couple other standouts, one of them and this is probably my second favorite variety out of this whole collection of 30 is it's an old fashioned variety called Hudson's Golden Gem and I put it into my yard back in the 1980s and that's produced reliable fruit for me ever since the fruit was I wouldn't say it was exceptionally large I would say it was medium to medium small in size. But profuse bearing, I mean it just loaded up with fruit.
Farmer Fred 19:23
The Hudson's Golden Gem apple and it's native to Oregon. I would think they were probably getting 1000 chill hours up there for that and yet you're finding and growing in an area that gets about 200 or less hours.
Tom Spellman 19:37
Yeah, and I think it was rated at at eight or 900 in our variety description and it just did exceptionally well. And you know there are others. King David did great, Waltana did great. Waltana is a an old Albert Etter variety from up in Northern California there that was hybridized probably back in the 19 teens or 20s. And Albert Etter came up with some wonderful Apple varieties up in Sonoma area there. And some of them that we, we still see today. But I think Waltana is one big large fruit, beautiful, greenish yellow color. And again, you could use it for baking or you could use it just for eating fresh, it almost had a kind of a cider like flavor just to take a bite out of a fresh piece of fruit off the tree. And I really find that appealing. I'm so into varieties that have individual flavor characteristics, I don't want them to taste like the next variety. And so often, that's what we buy in the grocery store where some of these old fashioned selection, and all kinds of different flavor attributes that we just don't find.
Farmer Fred 20:46
What's interesting, too about the Hudson Golden Gem apple. It is reportedly resistant to scab mildew and fireblight. Did you find that growing any of these varieties in a low chill area changed former resistances to some of these pests and disease issues?
Tom Spellman 21:04
No, I don't think so Fred. I think I was very lucky to be on a piece of property that wasn't completely developed around it at the time. So there was really, there was really almost no inoculum for fireblight in the area, I had very very little issue with fireblight over the years and I tried to run this program. Looking at at a backyard growers perspective, I didn't want to come in and spray I didn't even do a dormant spray on this program. So the only thing that we ever did was keep the trees pruned, keep the trees whitewashed to protect them against sunburn. And when we did our winter pruning, we would use a hose and a high pressure nozzle and just keep the trees blasted out if there was any scale or any mealy bug or any woolly aphid or something we just kind of washed it off the structure. But I had almost no insect or disease problem or presence during the whole term of that project. So Wow, that's amazing. I think if you can grow under conditions like that, where you can keep things controlled, you know, a little bit of high pressure water makes a huge difference in in how trees performed just to keep those trees clean and keep those scale and mealy bugs and things washed out of those tight crotches and you know you definitely can control 90% of your creepy crawly insect issues just by keeping those trees clean.
Farmer Fred 22:42
You can find more of Tom's picks at DaveWilson.com. Just click on the home garden tab at the top of the page and then click on fruit variety recommendations. And you can find Tom's picks that are winners for the low chill southwest and a lot more information about how to grow fruit trees and much, much more. It's a very informative website, DaveWilson.com. Tom Spellman. Congratulations, and I can't wait to taste some of those high chill fruits.
Tom Spellman 23:08
Thank you, Fred. Always a pleasure. I probably enjoyed this project more than any other project I've done there just because so many people told me you're gonna fail with it. And I just knew that I wasn't. I just knew that it was going to work and I think I opened a lot of people's eyes.
Farmer Fred 23:31
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Farmer Fred 24:55
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Farmer Fred 25:34
We like to talk with Warren Roberts. He is the superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum. And there is one that is very common across the United States. You can grow it in USDA zones one through 10. And it is a deciduous shrub. And I'm not going to pronounce it, Warren will. Hi Warren.
Warren Roberts 25:53
Oh, hi, Fred. Well, we're talking about the Weigela. That's the typical pronunciation I guess. I guess in German, the would be VEE-Gala. But weigela is what we call it. But I've heard people pronounce it a number of ways. The most amusing one is that the grandmother of one of my friends calls it wigglya.
Farmer Fred 26:19
Yeah, that's actually how I learned it too.
Warren Roberts 26:23
The wigglea, good to know more people know it as well. It's a deciduous shrub, it is a very faithful and easy plan to grow. They are deciduous so in the winter, they have no leaves, but beautiful, rather small leaves, somewhat pleated. The flowers, I was trying to think of a word to describe them. They're kind of bell shaped and kind of tubular, all at the same time, produced in clusters and often in great abundance. There are about oh, let's see about 10 species of weigela from East Asia. That's where the plant is from, along with so many of our beautiful shrubs and trees that are native to China. The main species grown is called Weigela florida. The name Florida refers, of course, to the state. But basically I think in Latin it means flowery, or full of flowers. There are some dwarf forms. There are about 100 different cultivars, and the colors range from white, to very dark red, also in pink. And apricot colored too. It's often the flowers have more than one color on them. Easy to grow, probably best in full sun, although in some areas, the hotter areas in the US, a little afternoon shade would be a good idea. The main thing about it, I think, is its dependability. It's just easy to grow. And when it's in bloom, it is really outstanding. Of course, it blooms in the spring and early summer when a lot of other things are in bloom, but it's it's a really good player and I would recommend it for almost any garden. It is not weedy, you don't even have to worry about that. Looks good. I don't think it has a fragrance. But with beautiful flowers like that, you can't have everything.
Farmer Fred 28:17
it blooms in the spring. I guess, depending on the species you get, it could range in height anywhere from two or three feet up to 10 feet tall.
Warren Roberts 28:25
That sounds right. We talked about the Kohlkwitzia, the beauty bush, recently, and they look similar, but the weigela is a smaller shrub.
Farmer Fred 28:27
It can take full sun or light shade or regular watering. And if you're looking for a showy plant in the spring, you might want to consider I'll call it the wigglia. You'll call it what?
Warren Roberts 28:48
Weigela. Thank you. All right. All right, tomato tomato.
Farmer Fred 28:54
Warren Roberts, Superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum, visit the Arboretum online at Arboretum dot uc davis dot edu. And you can peruse their wonderful collection of plants that they have there. Warren, thank you again for the Plant of the Week.
Warren Roberts 29:11
Thank you for the opportunity.
Farmer Fred 29:16
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